Smash Capitalism with Vegetarianism!?

[R_P_A_S]

so this girl I been talking to claims that if more people turn vegetarian, capitalism will weaken and pretty much wither away.

I have nothing against vegetarians but I feel that it's more of a personal/moral choice. and It's not real way of fighting capitalism or anything???

this is the conversation. I am in BOLD


But to stop eating meat is more of a personal/moral stance as oppose to bring about radical change. I'm not saying you should do more. I'm just saying that people by not eating meat are not changing the profit driven supply and demand economy which is a HUGE contributor to the horrible treatment of live stock and other animals.

im just giving YOU a hard time. but to say being vegetarian doesnt so anything to alter suplpy and demand is just ignorant in itself.

being a vegetarian it self does not set back the profit driven animal product market. And if it does Is probably just enough to make individuals feel good about them selves.

I have nothing against people being vegetarians or vegans. Not one single problem.

all im saying is that by one not consuming animal products for moral or personal reasons it does not lead to the abolishment of the animal-food market.

strength in numbers my friend

so if the world has to turn vegetarian or vegan for the sake of animals? only? meanwhile workers at food processing plants are still going to be exploited for the veggy-food market!

who do you think cuts up all those ready to eat veggies we get at the market? some 12 year old guatemalan girl. or who will be picking fruits and vegetables for 2 dollars an hour?

see the problem with ignorance is people tend to SHOW it while trying to prove a point...
buying LOCAL and ORGANIC as well as FAIR TRADE greatly reduces all the autocracies you have mentioned below. vegetarianism covers animal rights, consumer power covers human rights.

no shit. but you weren't mentioning that. you clearly were playing the animal rights part more than the human one. and you keep calling me ignorant very loosely. I hope you are kidding. Because I am not ignorant.

what If I want to keep eating meat? what is the "veggy dictatorship" gonna do to me?

i shouldnt have to mention it, its not what we were talking about, remember? we were discussing animal rights, not human.

you turned it into that. I was just talking about the markets . and HOW i am aware that they greatly affect the treatment of animals and such. I think that having the entire world turn vegetarian for the sake of animal rights firts and then capitalism withering from it,its way more far fetch and idealist than dying and going to heaven.

how did I turn it into that? scroll down and look who raised the question of how vegetarianism is supposed to solve human inequality! there are different solutions for different problems. lessening the impact of haw many animals are treated inhumanly are are result of the direct efforts of vegetarians that are in it for that purpose. there is no way you can tell me that the same amount of animals would be killed if all the vegetarians became meat eaters.

I'm sorry? but I think is a bigger priority to solve other major social issues dealing with HUMANS than to start with animals. even if a third of the world goes vegetarian we still have other forms of oppression, division of labor will still exist and other markets NOT dealing with food will still exist.

I ask again, what if people don't want to stop eating meat? will this be the new oppression? will they be persecuted?

thoughts?

[Fawkes]

im just giving YOU a hard time. but to say being vegetarian doesnt so anything to alter suplpy and demand is just ignorant in itself.
If enough people do it, it will. But that doesn't change the fact that supply and demand will just alter to whatever vegetarians are eating.


see the problem with ignorance is people tend to SHOW it while trying to prove a point...
buying LOCAL and ORGANIC as well as FAIR TRADE greatly reduces all the autocracies you have mentioned below. vegetarianism covers animal rights, consumer power covers human rights.
First, local and organic does not translate to fair treatment of workers by any means. In fact, I worked on a local organic farm this summer, and because I was under 16 at the time, I was paid roughly $4.00 an hour, and the wages were based more on favoritism than anything else. As far as fair trade goes, it's impossible for capitalists to buy the crops at a fair price and then sell them at a fair price, because no profit would be made. And for animal rights, the answer is simple: they don't have any and are not entitled to any.


how did I turn it into that? scroll down and look who raised the question of how vegetarianism is supposed to solve human inequality! there are different solutions for different problems. lessening the impact of haw many animals are treated inhumanly are are result of the direct efforts of vegetarians that are in it for that purpose. there is no way you can tell me that the same amount of animals would be killed if all the vegetarians became meat eaters.
Non-human animals cannot be treated inhumanely, seeing as how they're not human. Also, if everyone stopped eating meat today, the millions (possibly billions) of animals alive right now for human consumption would be dead, seeing as how the only reason they are kept alive is to serve us.


Moved to Sciences & Environment.

P.S. By killing animals in a more "humane" fashion, food prices rise, and as a result, working class people have to pay more for food.

[RedStaredRevolution]

I find it very funny how the crazy vegitarians who try and push it on others think its some kind of great political and revolutionary choice to not eat meat, when in reality its just a dietary choice.

Its fine if they dont eat meat for animal rights issues but no matter how much they argue about it people are still going to eat meat. Its just too damn delicious :P

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 03:56 pm
I find it very funny how the crazy vegitarians who try and push it on others think its some kind of great political and revolutionary choice to not eat meat, when in reality its just a dietary choice.

Its fine if they dont eat meat for animal rights issues but no matter how much they argue about it people are still going to eat meat. Its just too damn delicious :P
Well, being a vegetarian or a vegan isnt a explicitly revolutionary choice, but it is a very environmental choice. Think about it, "according to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain"
and

"According to the vegetarian author John Robbins, it takes roughly takes 60, 108, 168, 229 pounds of water to produce a pound of potatoes, wheat, corn and rice respectively. He reports that a pound of beef however, requires 12,000 gallons of water."

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 04:56 pm
I find it very funny how the crazy vegitarians who try and push it on others think its some kind of great political and revolutionary choice to not eat meat, when in reality its just a dietary choice.

Its fine if they dont eat meat for animal rights issues but no matter how much they argue about it people are still going to eat meat. Its just too damn delicious :P
It's really one of the problems with getting more people to become revolutionary leftists in America--people who claim to be revolutionary, but at the same time force a different set of values (which are unrelated to politics) down peoples' throats.

As a result, these so-called revolutionaries do nothing but alienate themselves from the proletariat, which is only COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the goal of ending capitalism.

The self-righteous attitude that some vegetarians wear on their shoulders doesn't help much either.

[Everyday Anarchy]

I am a vegetarian myself and find this person's arguments are terribly wrong in the ways previous posters have mentioned. Not consuming meat products will not bring down capitalism, it will merely shift the market towards the veg-products.

Vegetarian and vegan food items are not outside the control of capitalism. It's ridiculous to say that they are.

[Digitalis]

It's akin to saying "Stop using toilet paper and smash the state". I don't eat meat because I don't want something to have perished for my enjoyment, not because I believe Vegetarianism is a revolutionary tactic.

Then again, I suppose it's no stranger than thinking capitalism makes everyone equal.

[Luís Henrique]

Il sesso anale
sconfita il capitale

At least was a rhyme, and was about less prudery, not more. Not even to talk about being in Italian.

But there is only one thing that can defeat capital: organised uprising of the working class. The rest may be useful for other purposes, or not even that, but will not put an end to capitalism.

Luís Henrique

[RedStaredRevolution]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 13, 2007 07:53 pm
"according to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain"
I've actually heard this before, i just forgot about it.
Either way i dont think you could completely get rid of eating meat, which is what some vegatarians (the ones who try to force it on you) are trying to do i think. I understand that there are some benefits to being vegatarian (health, etc.), i was just saying that they force it on others for all the wrong reasons.

[Fiskpure]

... there are easier ways of overthrowing capitalism :P

[bcbm]

Why is it necessary to have this same fucking discussion every week? Seriously, look through the other topics before you post whatever brilliant argument you think you've just come up with. Its probably already there.

[Vanguard1917]

We should remember that, on the whole, vegetarianism in the West is the lifestyle of a tiny minority. The vast majority of people like to eat meat and like to be able to afford to eat meat. A very definite fact of life is that as people's incomes rise, one of the things that they do is add more meat to their diets.

Under communism, with greater wealth generated for all, we will see a radical increase in meat consumption worldwide - especially in parts of the world which are today poorer.

[Vanguard1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 12:15 pm
... there are easier ways of overthrowing capitalism :P
:lol:

That's probably true.

[Forward Union]

Vegetarianism, and even Veganism are simply alternative markets. If everyone became vegetarian or vegan, the meat industry would get smaller, that's all.

Infact, more of the amazon rainforest is cut down to make way for Soy plants to feed the growing vegan market, than is cut down for cattle.

And Vegan/vegies only make up 7% of the population. From a capitalist perspective, it's a consumer choice, from our point of view it's a lifestyle choice. It doesn't stand in opposition to anything other than the other choice you could have made :lol:

[madcat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 04:48 pm
Under communism, with greater wealth generated for all, we will see a radical increase in meat consumption worldwide - especially in parts of the world which are today poorer.
This is absolutely wrong assumption.
First it looks like you believe that this "meat" is coming from nowhere.There is just not enough resources(land) to produce so much meat.Even now meat production is almost at its peak and forests are cleared daily to free more land for irrational meat consumption."Meat" production is incredibly inefficient.And unlike capitalism which goals is to increase consumption,expand the economy and create new useless commodities(like bottled water),in communism the goal is to produce more efficiently and only what is needed.The growth of the economy will stop and will expand only proportional to the growth of the population.So with the growth of the population meat production will simply become impossible,there is one choice:everyone eats,or few people eat meat and the rest starve.You see communism actually makes difference between rational needs and irrational desires.So for those guys who believe in communism everyone will drive a porsche...think again. :)

[Vanguard1917]

Even now meat production is almost at its peak and forests are cleared daily to free more land for irrational meat consumption

I don't know where you got this from. In reality, as a result of intensive agricultural methods, more and more land is able to be freed from farming every year. Due to advances in factory farming, we are increasingly producing meat more and more efficiently than ever before. In the US, for example, the best factory farming methods can produce millions of chicken a day ready for slaughter. With the further expansion of this industry, there is no reason to believe that there are any limitations to output.


The growth of the economy will stop and will expand only proportional to the growth of the population.So with the growth of the population meat production will simply become impossible,there is one choice:everyone eats,or few people eat meat and the rest starve.You see communism actually makes difference between rational needs and irrational desires.So for those guys who believe in communism everyone will drive a porsche...think again

Communism will smash the restraints on our productive capabilities, unleash humanity's true productive potential, and give way to an economic and technological development which we have as yet never come close to witnessing.

[madcat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 07:50 pm
I don't know where you got this from. In reality, as a result of intensive agricultural methods, more and more land is able to be freed from farming every year.

Well I don't know where you are getting that info.Quote yourself please.What I know is that forests are being destroyed to free more land for crops which go for cattle food.And now for producing ethanol too instead of developing alternative energy sources.
http://www.wrm.org.uy/deforestation/indirect.html
http://www.pig8soy.org/node/55

[MarxSchmarx]

VG1917:


Due to advances in factory farming, we are increasingly producing meat more and more efficiently than ever before. In the US, for example, the best factory farming methods can produce millions of chicken a day ready for slaughter. With the further expansion of this industry, there is no reason to believe that there are any limitations to output.

The important exception is harvesting of fish stocks. Especially marine species. Aquaculture is yet to deliver on tuna and shark and even salmon. Is this a matter of time? Well, we might not have that luxury at the current rate we're fishing the oceans:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6108414.stm

[R_P_A_S]

hey comrades. here are the latest on the debate I was having with this person. check it out. for those of you who are following this...

and thanks for all your input. I would like some more...

this is what she said:


dude. READ what i said. i did not say Human rights are more important than animal rights." i stated "i never said there is anything wrong with you being a part of the human rights movement was less important than animal rights."
my whole argument is just because you think its less important than human rights doesnt mean that you can not care for it all together. there is no reason that you cant actively support both. if anything, its what people SHOULD do.
"a dietary choice does not, or will not aim to destroy this system or it's markets. Vegetarian, Organic Markets will simply rise."

this is absurd. check it.
if someone STOPS buying conventional meat and starts buying organic meat, their demand for conventional meat is replaced for the demand of its organic counterpart. multiply that by 5 million. if you dont understand the simple concept of supply and demand that encompasses the capitalist system as a whole then i cant help you. it is impossible for both conventional AND organic ales to rise at the same time.

think about the changes the demand for vegetarian fare has made: all of a sudden there are countless vegetarian options for menus from vietnamese to mexican to southern foods. not only that, but i have seen conventional restaurants start listing the organic items that are included on their menu. ben and jerry's even started a seperate organic line, kraft, general mills, and countless others have came out with an organic alternative.

i dont personally buy any of those, but it just shows the IMPACT this movement has made. to dumb it down to a DIETETIC choice is just ignorance, which brings me back to my original argument from the beginning. just because you do not deem it important does not mean its not its own MOVEMENT. has vegetarianism or organic living NOT moved things? has it NOT changed the populous' opinion about how food should be perceived and consumed and the effects it presents on our bodies? and SPEAKING of human rights; apparently your concept of the vegetarian/organic movement is very narrow because it is closely tied with the Fair Trade movement, which is specifically founded on exposing the need for families to get paid enough to live and have benefits like short work days, sick days/maternity leave, etc.

the fair trade system was designed precisely for fulfilling these needs. in addition, fair trade estates like coffee crops for example are automatically organic, because they think the families that work on the crops should not be constantly exposed to pesticide and chemical residues and bring it home to their children. furthermore, they even make sure the crops are grown in the SHADE so the workers dont have to work in the sun all day. it even makes the beans taste better. hows THAT for workers rights? you see, its a symbiotic relationship, not a conflict of which is more important.

this is what I SAID

i understand how organic works.and fair trade. you name endless products and how restaurants and companies are shifting to the organic MARKET.

thats my point. there will still be markets. perhaps the farmers wont be as exploited, perhaps some people will feel better about them selves for contributing to a more ethical alternative while being healthier and happier. but it will still create Markets. and ultimately exploit people on the other end. obviously NOT as harsh like Free Trade an other neo-con plan,
BUT at the organic/vegan restaurants there will still be an exploited dishwasher, busboy and at the super markets.some stock person, cashier,janitor.

And I'm not sure about other people or areas. but Organic is usually more expensive and it turns away people. sadly.

My roomate works for Whole Foods.which you praise and they still exploit the shit out of him. Just because they are Organic and practice better business habits than Ralphs. It don't put a halo over their head.

they are on the NYSE so they gone public and their PRIORITY is to please their STOCKHOLDERS. they just using the Organic MARKET as their signature and its making them billions and thats Capitalism. Im sure you know this.

I am not against organic or eating whatever the hell one wants to eat and if they chose to make it their fight in conjuction with other struggles.thats all good. I buy Organic stuff whenever I can afford it.

I don't know Jenny. sorry If im coming off a bit harsh. it takes me a while to settle in and start making my self clear on where I stand. I agree with your points and all. But Organic and Fair Trade as much of a better alternative its for both Humans and Animals It won't hurt the capitalism system.and it wont wither.

You give me examples of how companies and business is switching to offer that organic alternative. but this are still capitalist entities. It don't matter what they claim or how nicer they describe what they do, Profit drives them and It's still capitalism..but they are more responsible right? so it should be better to get exploited a lil less than alot?

ok.?

and this is HER REPLY


never denied the fact that organic shit is still a market. who did? yes i do think that exploiting people LESS in better conditions is better than exploiting people MORE in worse conditions. what is the harm in that? capitalism is NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY IN THE UNITED STATES. EVER. i never denied that wholefoods is still the man, but its a man id like to see more than ralphs. i dont see people striking against ralphs, i see wholefoods winning consecutive awards for being the best place to work at for the past 7 years. i have had many friend work there for a long time and they all love it. i think maybe you are using the word "exploit" a little too loosely when it comes to unbearable working conditions, no benefits, etc.
the system is NOT caught up with the price of living. this is obvious. but f we are looking for ways to lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system, i think places like whole foods and other socially conscious establishments are on the right track.
thats all.

any comments? <_<

[MarxSchmarx]

never denied the fact that organic shit is still a market. who did? yes i do think that exploiting people LESS in better conditions is better than exploiting people MORE in worse conditions. what is the harm in that? capitalism is NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY IN THE UNITED STATES. EVER. i never denied that wholefoods is still the man, but its a man id like to see more than ralphs. i dont see people striking against ralphs, i see wholefoods winning consecutive awards for being the best place to work at for the past 7 years. i have had many friend work there for a long time and they all love it. i think maybe you are using the word "exploit" a little too loosely when it comes to unbearable working conditions, no benefits, etc.
the system is NOT caught up with the price of living. this is obvious. but f we are looking for ways to lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system

Where to begin?

First, capitalism is going to go away in the united &#036;tates.

Second, surplus value = exploitation. Somebody needs to read her Marx.

Third, " lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system" is bloody mediocre. When this is seen as an end in itself, it is called reformism.

How about picking up a coke can and depositing it in the recycling bin. That is "lessening the effects of this while we are still held within the system."


i think places like whole foods and other socially conscious establishments are on the right track.
thats all.

No, that is not all. You are saying capitalism is OK. You are saying shitty companies like whole food deserve our applause:
http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

They are not on the right track. They are soul-less beasts that make (well-off) people feel better about themselves.

hth.

sigh.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 10:15 am

never denied the fact that organic shit is still a market. who did? yes i do think that exploiting people LESS in better conditions is better than exploiting people MORE in worse conditions. what is the harm in that? capitalism is NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY IN THE UNITED STATES. EVER. i never denied that wholefoods is still the man, but its a man id like to see more than ralphs. i dont see people striking against ralphs, i see wholefoods winning consecutive awards for being the best place to work at for the past 7 years. i have had many friend work there for a long time and they all love it. i think maybe you are using the word "exploit" a little too loosely when it comes to unbearable working conditions, no benefits, etc.
the system is NOT caught up with the price of living. this is obvious. but f we are looking for ways to lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system

Where to begin?

First, capitalism is going to go away in the united &#036;tates.

Second, surplus value = exploitation. Somebody needs to read her Marx.

Third, " lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system" is bloody mediocre. When this is seen as an end in itself, it is called reformism.

How about picking up a coke can and depositing it in the recycling bin. That is "lessening the effects of this while we are still held within the system."


i think places like whole foods and other socially conscious establishments are on the right track.
thats all.

No, that is not all. You are saying capitalism is OK. You are saying shitty companies like whole food deserve our applause:
http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

They are not on the right track. They are soul-less beasts that make (well-off) people feel better about themselves.

hth.

sigh.
exactly. I COMPLETELY left out surplus&#33; I knew I was missing something. and an other thing I realized as I heard this girl talk. is that well.. she is in fact more of a reformist and my stand is more of a revolutionary.

so how do you end this debate?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+November 18, 2007 02:12 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ November 18, 2007 02:12 pm)
[email protected] 18, 2007 10:15 am

never denied the fact that organic shit is still a market. who did? yes i do think that exploiting people LESS in better conditions is better than exploiting people MORE in worse conditions. what is the harm in that? capitalism is NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY IN THE UNITED STATES. EVER. i never denied that wholefoods is still the man, but its a man id like to see more than ralphs. i dont see people striking against ralphs, i see wholefoods winning consecutive awards for being the best place to work at for the past 7 years. i have had many friend work there for a long time and they all love it. i think maybe you are using the word "exploit" a little too loosely when it comes to unbearable working conditions, no benefits, etc.
the system is NOT caught up with the price of living. this is obvious. but f we are looking for ways to lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system

Where to begin?

First, capitalism is going to go away in the united &#036;tates.

Second, surplus value = exploitation. Somebody needs to read her Marx.

Third, " lessen the effects of this while we are still held within the system" is bloody mediocre. When this is seen as an end in itself, it is called reformism.

How about picking up a coke can and depositing it in the recycling bin. That is "lessening the effects of this while we are still held within the system."


i think places like whole foods and other socially conscious establishments are on the right track.
thats all.

No, that is not all. You are saying capitalism is OK. You are saying shitty companies like whole food deserve our applause:
http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

They are not on the right track. They are soul-less beasts that make (well-off) people feel better about themselves.

hth.

sigh.
exactly. I COMPLETELY left out surplus&#33; I knew I was missing something. and an other thing I realized as I heard this girl talk. is that well.. she is in fact more of a reformist and my stand is more of a revolutionary.

so how do you end this debate? [/b]
Organic farms are not some egalitarian place to work, from my own personal experience they are just as big of shitholes as a normal farm is in terms of working in good conditions, getting good pay, etc.

Fair Trade is just some way for liberal college students to feel good about themselves. The farmers are still being robbed in that their products would not be bought by capitalists if the capitalists did not give them less than their product was worth, because they (those buying) would have made zero profit.

There is no reason beyond some most likely not working-class woman&#39;s morals for us to even care the slightest bit about how non-human animals are treated or what we do to them.

To say capitalism will always exist is incredibly ignorant. All political-economic systems that have been implemented in the past by humans have fallen due to changing material conditions, capitalism will be no different.

Organic farming is inefficient in that it yields a smaller amount of produce than non-organic farming does. There is nothing sacred about an animal or plant that has never been touched with chemicals in its life, all that matters is the final product and what is in it. In other words, it doesn&#39;t make a difference what harmful things go into something as long as they are not there in a harmful capacity for humans when they are to be consumed by humans. Non-organic farming is far superior in terms of using less land in that more of the food produced can be consumed because nowhere near as much of it needs to be discarded due to insects, etc.

[R_P_A_S]

good arguments. i appreciate the input.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 03:00 am
good arguments. i appreciate the input.
No problem :) .

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+November 14, 2007 12:28 am--> (COMRADE CRUM @ November 14, 2007 12:28 am)
[email protected] 13, 2007 04:56 pm
I find it very funny how the crazy vegitarians who try and push it on others think its some kind of great political and revolutionary choice to not eat meat, when in reality its just a dietary choice.

Its fine if they dont eat meat for animal rights issues but no matter how much they argue about it people are still going to eat meat. Its just too damn delicious :P
It&#39;s really one of the problems with getting more people to become revolutionary leftists in America--people who claim to be revolutionary, but at the same time force a different set of values (which are unrelated to politics) down peoples&#39; throats.

As a result, these so-called revolutionaries do nothing but alienate themselves from the proletariat, which is only COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the goal of ending capitalism.

The self-righteous attitude that some vegetarians wear on their shoulders doesn&#39;t help much either. [/b]
i agree with you. but wouldn&#39;t you say we do it to? leftist, specially the dogmatic ones?

[Juliasunday]

I personally think if u live in awful conditions you have a right to eat meat cuz it&#39;s how you r fighting to survive. But if you buy vegetables, fruit and cook everythin u need to live a healthy life, eating meat is bad. And when i see expensive fur coats i feel like burning them
Being a vegetarian you don&#39;t smash capitalism but it somehow influences upon your entire lifestyle and what people around you think. At this point, you are a good role model. Besides, I know that Mutulu Shakur, the man I respect and admire, is a vegetarian and he remains a vegetarian even being incarcerated. But he&#39;s famous for many other important activities: he helps wrongly accused people, he shares his outlooks on life, educates, cures inmates. Being a vegetarian is just an example of being positive

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 06:03 pm
I personally think if u live in awful conditions you have a right to eat meat cuz it&#39;s how you r fighting to survive.
Well I&#39;m sure people who are struggling thank you for your magnanimity in granting them the right to eat meat.


But if you buy vegetables, fruit and cook everythin u need to live a healthy life, eating meat is bad.

Why?It can&#39;t be because killing animals is bad, unless you operate under a subjective system of ethics and it can&#39;t be "wrong" in the sense of incorrect because most people you have described in that situation can live on meat as part of their diet. So why is it "wrong"?


And when i see expensive fur coats i feel like burning them

What about cheap leather jackets?


Being a vegetarian you don&#39;t smash capitalism but it somehow influences upon your entire lifestyle and what people around you think.

That it does. It affects your lifestyle in that you have to make sure foods are suitable for you to eat before eating them and it affects other perceptions of you, inasmuch as they now think you&#39;re a twat.


At this point, you are a good role model.

No. THere is nothing especially good about being a vegetarian. A good role model is someone who does useful things and sets a good example for others to follow.


Besides, I know that Mutulu Shakur, the man I respect and admire, is a vegetarian and he remains a vegetarian even being incarcerated. But he&#39;s famous for many other important activities: he helps wrongly accused people, he shares his outlooks on life, educates, cures inmates.

I would guess he&#39;s a fairly good role model, even though I know nothing about him, but I don&#39;t think his vegetarianism has anything the to do with that. This, bit however did "he helps wrongly accused people, he shares his outlooks on life, educates, cures inmates".


Being a vegetarian is just an example of being positive

Again you make a wild assertion and refuse to back it up.

[MarxSchmarx]

It&#39;s really one of the problems with getting more people to become revolutionary leftists in America--people who claim to be revolutionary, but at the same time force a different set of values (which are unrelated to politics) down peoples&#39; throats.

As a result, these so-called revolutionaries do nothing but alienate themselves from the proletariat, which is only COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to the goal of ending capitalism.

The self-righteous attitude that some vegetarians wear on their shoulders doesn&#39;t help much either.

i agree with you. but wouldn&#39;t you say we do it to? leftist, specially the dogmatic ones?

Well sure some do it, but I think it&#39;s fair to say most leftists generally have a live-and-let-live attitude on issues of personal choice. Sure, we all don&#39;t like soccer-moms who buy hummers, but generally how much time can we really fret over whether somebody buys organic or non-organic or locally grown or imported vegetables?

[madcat]

Jazzratt everybody knows by now that you hate vegetarians there is no need of repeating yourself.



No. THere is nothing especially good about being a vegetarian. A good role model is someone who does useful things and sets a good example for others to follow.

And vegetarianism is not a good example and totally useless &#33;? Do you have even the slightest idea how wasteful meat production is and the pollution it produces...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And vegetarianism is not a good example and totally useless &#33;? Do you have even the slightest idea how wasteful meat production is and the pollution it produces...

And not eating meat does not change those facts one iota. It only serves to soothe the agonised consciences of middle class suburbanites.

More effective would be buying meat that is produced in a more ecologically sound way. But that would be too close to actually doing something about it rather than having an excuse to smugly claim moral superiority over those filthy meat eaters, wouldn&#39;t it?

[madcat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 02:01 pm

And vegetarianism is not a good example and totally useless &#33;? Do you have even the slightest idea how wasteful meat production is and the pollution it produces...

And not eating meat does not change those facts one iota. It only serves to soothe the agonised consciences of middle class suburbanites.

It may not in fact change much but we ware talking about making an example here.If alot of people are vegetarians then it most certainly makes a difference.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:05 am
Jazzratt everybody knows by now that you hate vegetarians
That&#39;s not true&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Jazzrat loves them.

With curry and onions.

Luís Henrique

[Lynx]

The future is in synthesized meat. If it has the same texture and taste, and costs less, the energy wastage problem would be solved. A niche market for natural meat could remain for &#39;traditionalists&#39;.

[MarxSchmarx]

It may not in fact change much but we ware talking about making an example here.If alot of people are vegetarians then it most certainly makes a difference.

Problem is , whenever we have to "be a good example" this often entails considerable personal sacrifice. Why would "a lot of people" take up this cause when it feels like a chore? Living entirely without meat products, or for that matter any ecologically responsible products, is a real chore for most people.

If "a lot of people" shunned consumerism and embraced radical unions and read their Marx and Chomsky etc..., we&#39;d have socialism by now. There is no easy way to smash capitalism, and relying on an "eventual critical mass", especially for things that have dubious immediate effects, seems like a dead end...

[piet11111]

jazzratt doesnt hate vegetarians he only hates those that claim moral superiority.
i think he is being too damn nice to those lifestylist middle-class jerkoffs.

[phasmid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 09:08 am
jazzratt doesnt hate vegetarians he only hates those that claim moral superiority.
i think he is being too damn nice to those lifestylist middle-class jerkoffs.
I&#39;m a vegetarian for my own "ethical" reasons, but I dont claim "moral superiority". Personally, those who do annoy the hell out of me because it entrenches the idea in peoples minds that all vegetarians get around with their nose rammed in the air looking down on people.I think Capitalism will consume itself before Vegetarianism does anything.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:05 am
Jazzratt everybody knows by now that you hate vegetarians there is no need of repeating yourself.
Yes, I can just see everybody on this board is practically tripping over themselves to point this out.



And vegetarianism is not a good example and totally useless &#33;? Do you have even the slightest idea how wasteful meat production is and the pollution it produces...

Yes, but being a self-righteous vegetarian prick is more likely to alienate people and cause them to continue with such practices. I don&#39;t mind the idea of synthetic meat, but I also think a lot of this veggie whining is groundless.

[madcat]

Yes, but being a self-righteous vegetarian prick is more likely to alienate people and cause them to continue with such practices. I don&#39;t mind the idea of synthetic meat, but I also think a lot of this veggie whining is groundless.


You are the "prick" in this case.In every topic that even remotely connects to vegetarianism you emphasize how useless,stupid and wrong vegetarianism is despite the obvious facts.The "self-righteous vegetarian pricks" have turned many potential vegetarians away,because vegetarianism is not something you can be convinced to embrace it is something you must achieve yourself and then it becomes obvious...maybe exactly because of this obviousness many vegetarians feel compelled to convince other people.


jazzratt doesnt hate vegetarians he only hates those that claim moral superiority.

Well than he must hate himself.
I don&#39;t claim "moral superiority".In fact I don&#39;t have any morality at all, I just do what must be done.

Here is a quote from one of my favorite scientists Carl Sagan who had an incredible materialistic view of the universe and through all his life fought against the geocentric and anthropocentric views of humanity(in other words against narrow-mindedness)


"Humans -- who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals - -- have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and "animals" is essential if we are to bend them to our will, wear them, eat them -- without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us."

[Lynx]

Not that humans have any compunction about enslaving and slaughtering each other...
Do not accept expediency, period. Practices should be examined to see if they are necessary, and alternatives sought out. Bye bye status quo.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 10:51 pm
You are the "prick" in this case.
You&#39;re entitled to your opinion, and in this case, entitled to shove it up your arse..


In every topic that even remotely connects to vegetarianism you emphasize how useless,stupid and wrong vegetarianism is despite the obvious facts.

I object to this on the grounds that an obvious fact is one so self-evidently clear that you would not have to point it out as such. I rarely comment on diet threads until some veggie with a stick up hir arse about meat eating makes some pompous posts.


The "self-righteous vegetarian pricks" have turned many potential vegetarians away,because vegetarianism is not something you can be convinced to embrace

Bollocks. A number of my friends and relatives are vegetarian and some of them were convinced of it by other vegetarians - or is this anomalous?


it is something you must achieve yourself and then it becomes obvious...

Spare me the semi-mystical wankery, I don&#39;t have the time for it and, quite frankly, nor should you.


maybe exactly because of this obviousness many vegetarians feel compelled to convince other people.

Either that or vegetarians are so convinced of their righteousness that they can brook no deviations to their lifestyle and instead must take every opportunity to condemn those they see as moral inferiors. The fact you have the sheer pomposity to declare vegetarianism "obvious" strongly reaffirms my view that this is the case.


Well than he must hate himself.

Yes, because I claim that my diet makes me a morally superior being. Oh, wait.


Here is a quote from one of my favorite scientists Carl Sagan who had an incredible materialistic view of the universe and through all his life fought against the geocentric and anthropocentric views of humanity(in other words against narrow-mindedness)

Do you like him for his science or for the fact his morality is in agreement with yours (and, yes, whether you care to admit it or not you do have a morality.)?

[madcat]

It&#39;s not a matter of being convinced,it is a matter of understanding which obviously you lack.
There are many reasons why people became vegetarians,some of which pure selfish,but saying that vegetarianism is a dietary choice is simply not true.


"A human being is part of the whole, called by us &#39;Universe&#39;, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
--Albert Einstein


Nope,I don&#39;t care about Relativity and his science,just the fact that he was vegetarian.Better late than never. :lol:

Iam not gona explain the moral &#39;thing&#39;.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:55 am
It&#39;s not a matter of being convinced,it is a matter of understanding which obviously you lack.
There are many reasons why people became vegetarians,some of which pure selfish,but saying that vegetarianism is a dietary choice is simply not true.
how could a choice about what you eat not be dietary ?

[madcat]

Originally posted by piet11111+December 25, 2007 12:57 am--> (piet11111 &#064; December 25, 2007 12:57 am)
[email protected] 25, 2007 12:55 am
It&#39;s not a matter of being convinced,it is a matter of understanding which obviously you lack.
There are many reasons why people became vegetarians,some of which pure selfish,but saying that vegetarianism is a dietary choice is simply not true.
how could a choice about what you eat not be dietary ? [/b]
Being a Vegan or vegetarian is much more than about what you eat.Not eating something is merely a consequence of Being a vegetarian not the other way around.

[Dros]

I love authoritarian vegetarianism&#33; :lol:

But really, I have no problems with vegetarians as long as they know when to shut the hell up. If you don&#39;t eat meat that is totally fine. It is a choice that everyone has the right to make for themselves. Just don&#39;t tell me what I can and can&#39;t eat. I love meat and all you dumb fucks who feal moraly superior for eating brocolli are a.) obnoxious, b.) amusing, and c.) wrong. You have not accomplished anything. You are not better people. You are (usually) guilt ridden, rich, white kids (sounds kinda like MIM&#39;s demographic...).

[piet11111]

Originally posted by madcat+December 25, 2007 01:02 am--> (madcat @ December 25, 2007 01:02 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:57 am

[email protected] 25, 2007 12:55 am
It&#39;s not a matter of being convinced,it is a matter of understanding which obviously you lack.
There are many reasons why people became vegetarians,some of which pure selfish,but saying that vegetarianism is a dietary choice is simply not true.
how could a choice about what you eat not be dietary ?
Being a Vegan or vegetarian is much more than about what you eat.Not eating something is merely a consequence of Being a vegetarian not the other way around. [/b]
sounds like a load of mystical bull**** now

[Palmares]

This discussion seems to be going places... :wacko:

But seriously, in a very bad way, I think the person at the start of this thread perhaps was simply saying being vegetarian/vegan could reduce the power of the meat industry. Or that&#39;s what i would have said.

A little misguided, yes.

Not really very revoutionary, and won&#39;t destroy capitalism too soon (or ever).

Just as otherwise mentioned, it will strengthen the vegetarian/vegan market.

Unless you undertake such a lifestyle as a freegan. But again, that won&#39;t change anything without significant social change.

And lastly, I as fuck wouldn&#39;t eat meat from the US. Do you know what the fuck they put in that shit? I&#39;m not against eating meat, but increasing meat production, especially in the American mode, sounds disastrous.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 02:48 pm
And lastly, I as fuck wouldn&#39;t eat meat from the US. Do you know what the fuck they put in that shit?
What exactly? I eat meat here (store brands usually) and I would like a detailed answer as to what they do with it. I&#39;m not trying to put you on the spot or anything, I&#39;m just curious.

I eat hot dogs and bologna, so I&#39;m bracing myself...

[piet11111]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+December 29, 2007 08:58 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ December 29, 2007 08:58 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2007 02:48 pm
And lastly, I as fuck wouldn&#39;t eat meat from the US. Do you know what the fuck they put in that shit?
What exactly? I eat meat here (store brands usually) and I would like a detailed answer as to what they do with it. I&#39;m not trying to put you on the spot or anything, I&#39;m just curious.

I eat hot dogs and bologna, so I&#39;m bracing myself... [/b]
i found this article about the capitalist aproach to food production in the united states.
link (http://www.marxist.com/mad-cow-disease190104-4.htm)

i dont think much has changed since this was written.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by piet11111+December 29, 2007 03:33 pm--> (piet11111 @ December 29, 2007 03:33 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 29, 2007 08:58 pm

[email protected] 29, 2007 02:48 pm
And lastly, I as fuck wouldn&#39;t eat meat from the US. Do you know what the fuck they put in that shit?
What exactly? I eat meat here (store brands usually) and I would like a detailed answer as to what they do with it. I&#39;m not trying to put you on the spot or anything, I&#39;m just curious.

I eat hot dogs and bologna, so I&#39;m bracing myself...
i found this article about the capitalist aproach to food production in the united states.
link (http://www.marxist.com/mad-cow-disease190104-4.htm)

i dont think much has changed since this was written. [/b]
Thanks.

[Palmares]

Thanks pretty much the gist of it. Fuck, makes me think of the animal products in the UK too...

another link (http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=54045-how-bse-misinformation) if you want a variety of sources.

[w0lf]

It&#39;s absurd to think this. How would it crush capitalism? It is sold in a capitalist market..

[R_P_A_S]

I&#39;d like to think that under a socialist system the production of meat will obviously remain. but It wouldn&#39;t be as commercialized. We&#39;d probably have less slaughter houses and would there really be need for all this ridiculous growth hormones and pesticide revolution that the capitalist have added to farming and crops for the sake of more profit&#33;???