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Marxist Napoleon
12th November 2007, 19:14
I've heard that the Soviet Union became revisionist after Stalin's death. What economic reforms did Khrushchev make that were so anti-Marxist? Why is Khrushchev called anti-revolutionary? I would think that since Stalin focused on setting up Soviet imperialism in Eastern Europe, and Khrushchev allowed the Cubans to forge their own revolutionary path, that Khrushchev was more progressive with foreign affairs. Didn't post-Stalin Soviet Union do a lot to liberate Africa and Asia from colonialism? Politically, I seem to support Khrushchev's reforms, because they freed up culture and literature a little bit. Am I missing something here?

Faux Real
12th November 2007, 20:21
He was a social Imperialist and was willing to obliterate the world to forge his empire.

Killer Enigma
12th November 2007, 20:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 08:21 pm
He was a social Imperialist and was willing to obliterate the world to forge his empire.
I see what you did there.

RedJacobin
12th November 2007, 21:00
Originally posted by Marxist [email protected] 12, 2007 07:14 pm
I've heard that the Soviet Union became revisionist after Stalin's death. What economic reforms did Khrushchev make that were so anti-Marxist? Why is Khrushchev called anti-revolutionary? I would think that since Stalin focused on setting up Soviet imperialism in Eastern Europe, and Khrushchev allowed the Cubans to forge their own revolutionary path, that Khrushchev was more progressive with foreign affairs. Didn't post-Stalin Soviet Union do a lot to liberate Africa and Asia from colonialism? Politically, I seem to support Khrushchev's reforms, because they freed up culture and literature a little bit. Am I missing something here?
http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/KPC64.html

The other documents from the "Sino-Soviet" split are also good reads.

Ismail
12th November 2007, 21:26
He condemned Stalin's legacy, and did things like crush the Hungarian revolt. He also wanted certain nations in the Warsaw Pact to be "specialized" in certain areas of production. Albania would basically be a giant granary, etc while the USSR under his leadership was also beginning to try and exert its influence across the world via attempting to "export" the revolution, etc. Brezhnev was a lot worse, but Khrushchev was still pretty damned bad and represented the rise of the revisionists.

For example, when Albania began to break away from Soviet influence, Khrushchev occupied an Albanian port and threatened to keep it occupied by Soviet troops, all because Hoxha claimed that the USSR was heading away from Socialism and that Khrushchev should of reviewed his foreign policy and its compatibility with Marxist-Leninism.

Dimentio
12th November 2007, 21:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 09:26 pm
He condemned Stalin's legacy, and did things like crush the Hungarian revolt. He also wanted certain nations in the Warsaw Pact to be "specialized" in certain areas of production. Albania would basically be a giant granary, etc while the USSR under his leadership was also beginning to try and exert its influence across the world via attempting to "export" the revolution, etc. Brezhnev was a lot worse, but Khrushchev was still pretty damned bad and represented the rise of the revisionists.

For example, when Albania began to break away from Soviet influence, Khrushchev occupied an Albanian port and threatened to keep it occupied by Soviet troops, all because Hoxha claimed that the USSR was heading away from Socialism and that Khrushchev should of reviewed his foreign policy and its compatibility with Marxist-Leninism.
And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?

Kwisatz Haderach
12th November 2007, 21:59
Originally posted by RedJacobin+November 12, 2007 11:00 pm--> (RedJacobin @ November 12, 2007 11:00 pm)
Marxist [email protected] 12, 2007 07:14 pm
I've heard that the Soviet Union became revisionist after Stalin's death. What economic reforms did Khrushchev make that were so anti-Marxist? Why is Khrushchev called anti-revolutionary? I would think that since Stalin focused on setting up Soviet imperialism in Eastern Europe, and Khrushchev allowed the Cubans to forge their own revolutionary path, that Khrushchev was more progressive with foreign affairs. Didn't post-Stalin Soviet Union do a lot to liberate Africa and Asia from colonialism? Politically, I seem to support Khrushchev's reforms, because they freed up culture and literature a little bit. Am I missing something here?
http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/KPC64.html

The other documents from the "Sino-Soviet" split are also good reads. [/b]
After scanning through that document, it seems that the accusations brought against Khrushchev are as follows:

1. Under Khrushchev's leadership there were some people (mostly bureaucrats) in the Soviet Union using illegal means to exert private control over some means of production that were supposed to be public property.

2. He put the geopolitical interests of the Soviet Union above the international interests of the proletariat.

3. He gave up the idea that there was a class struggle to be waged within Soviet society between the proletariat and remaining bourgeois elements, and focused instead on economic development and trying to raise standards of living.

And now for my answers to those accusations:

1. and 2. - No shit, Sherlock. The Soviet Union had an emerging new ruling class of bureaucrats and looked after its own national self-interest? Well duh, of course it did! But Khrushchev cannot be blamed for these problems. The emerging new ruling class of bureaucrats was there since Stalin. In fact, if you count the Nepmen, it was there since Lenin. Likewise, Stalin was the one who pioneered the foreign policy of sacrificing the interests of the proletariat for the sake of increasing the power of the Soviet Union. Khrushchev merely followed the same line.

3. True, it was a huge mistake on Khrushchev's part to believe that there were no forces within the Soviet Union trying to re-establish class relations and exploitation. But then again, Mao's Cultural Revolution turned out to be an abysmal failure in combating such trends - seeing how Deng Xiaoping took over less than a decade after Mao's death - so Maoists are hardly in a position to lecture the Soviet Union about capitalist restauration.

Ismail
12th November 2007, 22:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 04:46 pm
And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?
Probably would of acted as a liberating force rather than an occupying one, working alongside with the proletariat and then withdrawing troops when all was clear and keeping them at the border in the case of US intervention or Fascist resurgence.

Marxist Napoleon
12th November 2007, 23:07
Okay, I can agree with most of these claims, but can't a lot of them be applied to Stalin as well? Didn't the Soviet bureaucracy originate with Stalin, and weren't the Soviet satellites oppressed even more under Stalin? Also, did post-Khrushchev Soviet leaders get the label revisionist? If anything, it seems like the Soviet Union's problems got worse after Khrushchev. And to what extent does this label scar a person's legacy? Didn't Khrushchev play a somewhat positive role in creating affordable housing?

Dimentio
12th November 2007, 23:31
Let me just make a short statement:

Marx was not a marxist, marxism-leninism is only on the surface related to marxism, and you need to rewind back to Marx and apply his thinking...

Prairie Fire
13th November 2007, 00:48
No one has brought up Kruschevs ideological blunders. <_<

You know how some communist parties believe that you can get into power through electoral democracy? Well, that was Nicky&#39;s idea. Notice, the parties that sided with China didn&#39;t try parliamentary democracy, and niether did many that followed Trotsky. That was Kruschev, and his line of peaceful transition to socialism. Also, it was Kruschev who put forward the line of peaceful competition with the capitalist sphere of the USA/NATO.

As Mr.Die allready pointed out, the USSR under Kruschev didn&#39;t encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world, trying to turn every other socialist country into a soviet Banana republic, specializing in production of a raw material cash-crop for export to the USSR; this is part of the reason why when the USSR went down, they took most of the rest of the socialist world with them. This is also the reason that Cuba had to adopt massive tourism and initiate the special economic period.

Now, there was also his militaristic interventions in Hungary and Czechoslavakia (among other places.), which signalled the beginning of social-imperialist military intervention.

In addition to all of this, the Kruschevite Soviet Union saw the rise of underground workshops and a thriving underground capitalist economy.

Serpent:


And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?

This (rehtorical) question supposes that the hungarian revolt was inevitable.
Perhaps a better question would be "would the Hungarian revolt have happened
if Stalin had still been alive/general secretary?". Perhaps the fact that the Hungarian revolt didn&#39;t happen until Kruschev assumed power is indicative of where the begining of the problem lies.


Let me just make a short statement:

Marx was not a marxist, marxism-leninism is only on the surface related to marxism, and you need to rewind back to Marx and apply his thinking...

Let me make a shorter statement:

Study harder; hit the books again. You&#39;ll get it eventually.

Prairie Fire
13th November 2007, 05:07
Perhaps incorrect phrasing...

I mean that these were the initiatives and political lines put forward by Niktia Kruschev and his collaborators.

Kwisatz Haderach
13th November 2007, 07:59
Originally posted by RavenBlade+November 13, 2007 02:48 am--> (RavenBlade @ November 13, 2007 02:48 am) As Mr.Die allready pointed out, the USSR under Kruschev didn&#39;t encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world [/b]
And Stalin did??

Look, my problem with criticisms of Khrushchev is that all of them can apply equally well to Stalin, whereas not all criticisms of Stalin can apply to Khrushchev. In other words, overall, Khrushchev was better than Stalin.


RavenBlade
this is part of the reason why when the USSR went down, they took most of the rest of the socialist world with them.
Actually, it was the other way around: Eastern Europe fell first, then the Soviet Union was brought down two years later.

In a way, the events of 1989-1991 vindicated the Brezhnev Doctrine: the restauration of capitalism in one Eastern Bloc nation led to the restauration of capitalism everywhere. Gorbachev should have intervened against Solidarity in Poland. Unfortunately, he was - and is - an idiot.

Rawthentic
13th November 2007, 15:37
But then again, Mao&#39;s Cultural Revolution turned out to be an abysmal failure in combating such trends - seeing how Deng Xiaoping took over less than a decade after Mao&#39;s death - so Maoists are hardly in a position to lecture the Soviet Union about capitalist restauration
The importance is how much an advance to communist theory this was. If it wasnt for the GPCR, do you think socialism would have lasted for so long? It should have been a more continuous process, in my opinion.

Kwisatz Haderach
13th November 2007, 17:03
Originally posted by Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 05:37 pm
The importance is how much an advance to communist theory this was. If it wasnt for the GPCR, do you think socialism would have lasted for so long?
Yes. The Soviet Union, which had no cultural revolution, resisted capitalist restauration longer than China.

I must stress the importance of the fact that Deng took over less than 10 years after the GPCR ended. When you compare China with the "revisionist" countries, the GPCR seems to have had almost no effect at all. China did not fare better than the "revisionist" countries, and in some respects it fared worse.

Dimentio
13th November 2007, 17:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 12:48 am
No one has brought up Kruschevs ideological blunders. <_<

You know how some communist parties believe that you can get into power through electoral democracy? Well, that was Nicky&#39;s idea. Notice, the parties that sided with China didn&#39;t try parliamentary democracy, and niether did many that followed Trotsky. That was Kruschev, and his line of peaceful transition to socialism. Also, it was Kruschev who put forward the line of peaceful competition with the capitalist sphere of the USA/NATO.

As Mr.Die allready pointed out, the USSR under Kruschev didn&#39;t encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world, trying to turn every other socialist country into a soviet Banana republic, specializing in production of a raw material cash-crop for export to the USSR; this is part of the reason why when the USSR went down, they took most of the rest of the socialist world with them. This is also the reason that Cuba had to adopt massive tourism and initiate the special economic period.

Now, there was also his militaristic interventions in Hungary and Czechoslavakia (among other places.), which signalled the beginning of social-imperialist military intervention.

In addition to all of this, the Kruschevite Soviet Union saw the rise of underground workshops and a thriving underground capitalist economy.

Serpent:


And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?

This (rehtorical) question supposes that the hungarian revolt was inevitable.
Perhaps a better question would be "would the Hungarian revolt have happened
if Stalin had still been alive/general secretary?". Perhaps the fact that the Hungarian revolt didn&#39;t happen until Kruschev assumed power is indicative of where the begining of the problem lies.


Let me just make a short statement:

Marx was not a marxist, marxism-leninism is only on the surface related to marxism, and you need to rewind back to Marx and apply his thinking...

Let me make a shorter statement:

Study harder; hit the books again. You&#39;ll get it eventually.
Thanks, but I am like Marx, no marxist ^^

black magick hustla
13th November 2007, 18:26
Originally posted by Mrdie+November 12, 2007 10:42 pm--> (Mrdie @ November 12, 2007 10:42 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2007 04:46 pm
And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?
Probably would of acted as a liberating force rather than an occupying one, working alongside with the proletariat and then withdrawing troops when all was clear and keeping them at the border in the case of US intervention or Fascist resurgence. [/b]
Yeah, that is exactly what he did in Spain 1936. <_<

black magick hustla
13th November 2007, 18:28
Originally posted by Serpent+November 13, 2007 05:36 pm--> (Serpent @ November 13, 2007 05:36 pm)
[email protected] 13, 2007 12:48 am
No one has brought up Kruschevs ideological blunders. <_<

You know how some communist parties believe that you can get into power through electoral democracy? Well, that was Nicky&#39;s idea. Notice, the parties that sided with China didn&#39;t try parliamentary democracy, and niether did many that followed Trotsky. That was Kruschev, and his line of peaceful transition to socialism. Also, it was Kruschev who put forward the line of peaceful competition with the capitalist sphere of the USA/NATO.

As Mr.Die allready pointed out, the USSR under Kruschev didn&#39;t encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world, trying to turn every other socialist country into a soviet Banana republic, specializing in production of a raw material cash-crop for export to the USSR; this is part of the reason why when the USSR went down, they took most of the rest of the socialist world with them. This is also the reason that Cuba had to adopt massive tourism and initiate the special economic period.

Now, there was also his militaristic interventions in Hungary and Czechoslavakia (among other places.), which signalled the beginning of social-imperialist military intervention.

In addition to all of this, the Kruschevite Soviet Union saw the rise of underground workshops and a thriving underground capitalist economy.

Serpent:


And what would Stalin have done with the Hungarian revolt?

This (rehtorical) question supposes that the hungarian revolt was inevitable.
Perhaps a better question would be "would the Hungarian revolt have happened
if Stalin had still been alive/general secretary?". Perhaps the fact that the Hungarian revolt didn&#39;t happen until Kruschev assumed power is indicative of where the begining of the problem lies.


Let me just make a short statement:

Marx was not a marxist, marxism-leninism is only on the surface related to marxism, and you need to rewind back to Marx and apply his thinking...

Let me make a shorter statement:

Study harder; hit the books again. You&#39;ll get it eventually.
Thanks, but I am like Marx, no marxist ^^ [/b]
When marx said he wasnt a marxist, he meant that lasalle&#39;s social democrats were calling themselves "marxists" and that he wouldn&#39;t be part of that.

UndergroundConnexion
13th November 2007, 19:19
He criticized Stalin , aaaaawww. Stalinist see people who do that directly as trotskist or revisionist
He should have been much harsher on that for fuck&#39;s sake.
And then these bureaucratic ****s leaded by brezhnev put him off.

Rawthentic
13th November 2007, 22:49
Yes. The Soviet Union, which had no cultural revolution, resisted capitalist restauration longer than China.

I must stress the importance of the fact that Deng took over less than 10 years after the GPCR ended. When you compare China with the "revisionist" countries, the GPCR seems to have had almost no effect at all. China did not fare better than the "revisionist" countries, and in some respects it fared worse.
Interesting point here.

Conditions in China were much different, but in no other socialist country did the masses rise up to revolutionize society as in China. I was speaking more in terms of the advance in Marxism it is.

piet11111
13th November 2007, 23:20
to me the only difference between stalin and nikky was that stalin controlled the bureaucrats through terror.
with stalins death the bureaucrats made sure nobody would ever get as powerfull as stalin ever again.

Rawthentic
13th November 2007, 23:23
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:

ComradeOm
19th November 2007, 22:25
Originally posted by Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 11:22 pm
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:
No, but he does touch on, in a tangential and sectarian way, a fairly important distinction between the two. Not the role of the bureaucracy, the redistribution of power amongst the Politburo only occurred with the toppling of Khrushchev, but the manner of rule. Khrushchev&#39;s reforms saw the end to the Stalinist economic model that relied almost exclusively on coercion, or "terror" if we&#39;re being dramatic. Real wages and living standards, which had been kept artificially low under Stalin, were permitted to rise and the economy made the necessary shift to a system where capital was accumulated via productive, as opposed to primitive, means.

Random Precision
19th November 2007, 22:51
You know how some communist parties believe that you can get into power through electoral democracy? Well, that was Nicky&#39;s idea. Notice, the parties that sided with China didn&#39;t try parliamentary democracy, and niether did many that followed Trotsky. That was Kruschev, and his line of peaceful transition to socialism. Also, it was Kruschev who put forward the line of peaceful competition with the capitalist sphere of the USA/NATO.

As opposed to Stalin, who essentially sold out all the Communist Parties of Western Europe after World War 2?


As Mr.Die allready pointed out, the USSR under Kruschev didn&#39;t encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world, trying to turn every other socialist country into a soviet Banana republic, specializing in production of a raw material cash-crop for export to the USSR; this is part of the reason why when the USSR went down, they took most of the rest of the socialist world with them. This is also the reason that Cuba had to adopt massive tourism and initiate the special economic period.

How did Stalin encourage independence in the rest of the socialist world? The Georgian Affair and the 1927 Shanghai Massacre come to mind... :lol:


Now, there was also his militaristic interventions in Hungary and Czechoslavakia (among other places.), which signalled the beginning of social-imperialist military intervention.

I&#39;m not sure that I understand what that implies, but what the hell. How do you believe a country goes from being socialist [under Stalin presumably] to the highest stage of capitalism [under Khrushchev] in just three years?

ShineThePath
21st November 2007, 01:35
Hope for the Proles,

There are particular reasons to be looked at that most Maoists don&#39;t consider Stalin to be a revisionist nor the USSR during this time, but Khruschev to be so. I would like to sya before I begin that in the Maoist movement today there is significant debate over Stalin, revisionism, and State-Capitalism. This being said, most Maoists believe Stalin to be a revolutionary Marxist-Leninist; however have significant critiques of him, Mao made many of these criticisms long before the revisionist consolidation of power in the late 50s&#39;. Some excerpts can be found here provided by Single Spark (http://singlespark.org/?id=StalinMaoEval).

What particularly important is the emphasis for Maoists on the internal struggle in the Party against revisionism and the revolutionary line of the Proletariat. The Soviet Union under Stalin in the main represented still a revolutionary state providing the polarizing line and opportunity for the development of International communist revolution, while at the same time protecting the gains of the October Revolution, while moving down the road of Socialism in changing social relations and relations of production in the Soviet Union.

Throughout this period there were various struggles between the revisionist and opportunist lines of many trends and the Socialist road that was being led by Com. Stalin. While, I do too have many criticisms of the methodology of Stalin, what I can say is that his leadership represented a genuine polarizing line for revolutionary Socialism...whereas Trotsky&#39;s led to a mechanistic stagist corruption of Marxism and Buhkarin&#39;s represented a neo-Bernsteinian approach.

Of course here I will not be an apologist for the Trials and what that represented, Stalin&#39;s instrumentalist pragmatic persuit to the ends of revolutionary politics are his gravest mistakes and crimes. He lacked basic faith in the people to launch take hold of Socialism...but in the last analysis, most Bolsheviks lacked this faith in the Soviet masses.

Mao Zedong, Zhang Chunqiao, and the revolutionary forces in China found how the Bourgeoisie engenders itself in Socialism on the basis of Bourgeois Right and the social relations to the means of production. Key point for this re-emergence was the Vanguard Party itself, this meant for the need for continual political struggle within the Party to keep it fresh and revolutionary, connected to the Masses, and not stagnant, commandist, and Bourgeois.

In the Soviet Union, this percise struggle was happening during Stalin&#39;s leadership as General Secretary and afterwards as well. Key revolutionary forces were struggling against Khruschev&#39;s leadership, Kagnotvich, Molotov, Malenkov, and other more centrist lines like Bulganin too.

There was struggle, but what made Khruschev&#39;s politics a revisionist politics? He devalued revolutionary struggle and threw out the concept that the masses make history. What was going to make history for the USSR was "peaceful competition" which was going to "bury" the US in production. 3 co-existences is a line of social-democracy and liberalism, it isn&#39;t a revolutionary communist line. Khruschev began the process of large scale re-organization of Soviet production to the needs of accumulation of Capital and re-investment into profitable ends, as well as re-investment into Imperial monopoly persuits.

Axel1917
21st November 2007, 04:39
What is "revisionism" supposed to mean anyway? I personally find it to be unscientific, and no Stalinist has ever explained how or why the USSR or China "suddenly became revisionist," how the "bourgeoisie in the party arises," etc. They just say that things suddenly became revisionist.

I personally find the term to be an arbitrary and poor explanation by some, an attempt to explain what went wrong, lacking in a scientific basis.

Krushchev was a Stalinist, like his predecessor. Stalinist regimes are not dictated by Marxist theory, but by the narrow interests of a bureaucratic stratum. These interests can change quickly, and when they do, the approach of the party does as well. This is why the history of Stalinist parties can be seen as a series of zig-zags, contradictory in some cases.

ShineThePath
21st November 2007, 19:57
Yes, the term revisionist comes long before even Lenin. The revisionist movement was led by Bernstein in the SDP of Germany. Bernstein wanted to "revise" the conception of Marxist dialectics to eliminate the need for revolution itself and turn Marxism into a processual evolutionary Politics, that saw Socialism as an inevitability with the development of Capitalism peacefully into it. In summation, Bernstein turned Social-Democratic politics into a liberal Bourgeois politics.

When Marxist-Leninists(-Maoists) say that a political groupings politics has turned revisionist, we mean that a party has taken the political line of the Bourgeoisie in the form of liberalism. The politics have turned from revolution and class struggle toward stagnant ends.

Further, Axel, I think your idea of "bureaucracies" itself is very unscientific. It gives no basis for these "zig-zags." The contradiction in a Revolutionary Party with power is thusly a problem of maintaining a revolutionary line and leadership of revolution, while at the same time have relations to the means of production which are essentially controlling them. The relation the Party has to the means of production ensure an engendering of certain relations which continue the class struggle in Socialism, within the Party. This was the basis for the Cultural Revolution for example.

Marsella
21st November 2007, 20:09
When Marxist-Leninists(-Maoists) say that a political groupings politics has turned revisionist, we mean that a party has taken the political line of the Bourgeoisie in the form of liberalism. The politics have turned from revolution and class struggle toward stagnant ends.

How does a former revolutionary party suddenly take the &#39;political line of the bourgeoisie?&#39;

How do you intend to prevent that from happening again?


The contradiction in a Revolutionary Party with power is thusly a problem of maintaining a revolutionary line and leadership of revolution, while at the same time have relations to the means of production which are essentially controlling them.

The &#39;contradictions&#39; in a party are prevented by holding a &#39;revolutionary line&#39; whilst at the same time &#39;controlling the means of production?&#39;

Could you explain that?


The relation the Party has to the means of production ensure an engendering of certain relations which continue the class struggle in Socialism, within the Party.

What relations specifically?

How does a party by itself continue class struggle?

ShineThePath
21st November 2007, 20:39
Thank you Martov for your questions and I will try to give my answers a bit more direct.

Your first question is definitely in my opinion the one most important and to which no Revolutionary can have a determined route.

A Party, is in its form, a revolutionary organization that is LEADING struggle; however because of such a relationship of leadership and power, contradictions a rise from habitual practice of Bourgeois self-serving interest, and their mode of commandist leadership.

This habitual practice of old methodology of the Bourgeoisie will continue to persist and must be struggled against and criticized. Such practices lead to political lines developing in our organizations which are disconnected to the masses. Maoists strive for a Mass Line leadership, that is connected to the masses in their struggles.

The second problem of a Party, if it makes revolution and takes power, is that it becomes a Party-State apparatus. Such a relation under Socialism inherently means the controls of the means of production will be under the State, this creates relations to the means of production of which creates power relations. This is what Marx and Mao referred to as "Bourgeois Right," such relations can act to mimic the relations of the Bourgeoisie toward the Proletariat without actual Private Ownership.

Not only the Party, but other aspects of society will see social relations have contradictions and antagonisms that ensure the continuation of the class struggle and struggles against Patriarchy, Racism/White Supremacy, and different oppressive relations under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Your questions in their essence is how can we stop counter-revolution and continue the revolutionary struggle with the power belonging to the people. I believe there is no one step solution to this besides continuing struggle under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and relying and having the masses of people take aim at reactionary ideology an practice in a Socialist society.

There are no solutions here, besides keeping in mind that the people make history, keep connected, gave faith, and rely on the masses of people.

I think at the same time, looking at the 20th Century, we need to open the space for political engagement to make better politics for the 21st century and not commit the mistakes of the past.

Marsella
21st November 2007, 21:25
A Party, is in its form, a revolutionary organization that is LEADING struggle; however because of such a relationship of leadership and power, contradictions a rise from habitual practice of Bourgeois self-serving interest, and their mode of commandist leadership.

I agree.

The existence of leaders naturally means the existence of followers.

Leaders typically think that they are better than the &#39;masses.&#39; Why else would they extol that they alone may lead them? That they alone must change the former means of production?

Could we not let workers be their own leaders?


This habitual practice of old methodology of the Bourgeoisie will continue to persist and must be struggled against and criticized. Such practices lead to political lines developing in our organizations which are disconnected to the masses. Maoists strive for a Mass Line leadership, that is connected to the masses in their struggles.

Political &#39;lines&#39; always exist in hierarchical organisations. Even members of the same group disagree with each other. But we really only hear about it when those members are head of a country.

The Bolsheviks had splits before it came to power. And what difference does it make if you are &#39;connected to the masses&#39;?

What is Mass Line leadership?

Maoists and Leninist parties have always followed the &#39;democratic centralist&#39; model; there is a level of debate in the CC, but bugger the rest.


The second problem of a Party, if it makes revolution and takes power, is that it becomes a Party-State apparatus. Such a relation under Socialism inherently means the controls of the means of production will be under the State, this creates relations to the means of production of which creates power relations. This is what Marx and Mao referred to as "Bourgeois Right," such relations can act to mimic the relations of the Bourgeoisie toward the Proletariat without actual Private Ownership.


I would strongly disagree with the idea that a party &#39;makes&#39; revolution and more strongly disagree that that party &#39;takes power&#39; or should &#39;take power.&#39;

But you are actually perfectly right.

A party which &#39;leads a revolution&#39;, which &#39;makes a revolution&#39;, will normally take power under the old bourgeoisie state.

And if they create a new state, they tend to mimic the relations of the old system, but I would go further and argue that that private property still exists.

For the proletariat class does not own property or capital in a bourgeoisie system, nor do they own property in a state-capitalist system. Marx advocated the abolishment of bourgeoisie property. But in all areas, the state has become the new sole holder of capital. Just because a state now owns the means of production does not mean the absence of capitalism. A shift in bosses is all that has happened, and workers are no closer to controlling the means of production.

Workers need to collectively own their means of production.


Not only the Party, but other aspects of society will see social relations have contradictions and antagonisms that ensure the continuation of the class struggle and struggles against Patriarchy, Racism/White Supremacy, and different oppressive relations under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Your raising the argument that the old bourgeoisie ideals will be defeated under the dictatorship of the proletariat?

If a working class still hold reactionary bourgeoisie nonsense of &#39;hard work&#39; and other reactionary ideals, then I would hardly expect them to revolutionize the means of production in the first place.

Furthermore, I disagree with what your idea of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is.

I don&#39;t see the need for a transitioning period. Nor has anyone given me a convincing argument.

We should start building the basis of a communist society from day one, not rely on a party to &#39;continue the class struggle for us.&#39;

The &#39;dictatorship of the proletariat&#39; lasted 75 odd years in Russia.

It could have lasted another 100.


Your questions in their essence is how can we stop counter-revolution and continue the revolutionary struggle with the power belonging to the people. I believe there is no one step solution to this besides continuing struggle under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and relying and having the masses of people take aim at reactionary ideology an practice in a Socialist society.

I&#39;m sorry but you really didn&#39;t offer a &#39;solution.&#39;

Besides stating that we must continue the struggle and rely on the masses to rebel against &#39;reactionary ideology.&#39;

How can a worker rebel against reactionary ideology when the whole force of the state will come bearing down on him?

That fundamentally overlooks that the state is a coercive measure, and when it is in the hands of bureaucrats they will act in their selfish interests.

And rarely does that coincide with a demand from the workers or for working class power.

Here is my thought: if we don&#39;t have a party takes over the state, then that party will not &#39;take the bourgeoisie line.&#39;

It cannot &#39;counter-revolt&#39; if it does not exist&#33;


There are no solutions here, besides keeping in mind that the people make history, keep connected, gave faith, and rely on the masses of people.

Why is there such a strong emphasis on faith?

I don&#39;t have &#39;faith&#39; that the proletariat will do the right thing. It is based on material understanding.

More to the point, people do make history. But when parties take over state structures then it is them that make history. Just as entire armies of workers are fired under our present system, the level of power which the state-capitalist bureaucrats have is parallel.

Having &#39;faith&#39; in the proletariat would be to leave up to them what must be done by them.

Comrade Rage
21st November 2007, 22:14
Originally posted by ComradeOm+November 19, 2007 05:24 pm--> (ComradeOm @ November 19, 2007 05:24 pm)
Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 11:22 pm
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:
No, but he does touch on, in a tangential and sectarian way, a fairly important distinction between the two. Not the role of the bureaucracy, the redistribution of power amongst the Politburo only occurred with the toppling of Khrushchev, but the manner of rule. Khrushchev&#39;s reforms saw the end to the Stalinist economic model that relied almost exclusively on coercion, or "terror" if we&#39;re being dramatic. Real wages and living standards, which had been kept artificially low under Stalin, were permitted to rise and the economy made the necessary shift to a system where capital was accumulated via productive, as opposed to primitive, means. [/b]
You are falling victim to the usual propaganda against Stalin. For one, you are ignoring the reconstruction of Russia after the civil war with the whites and anarchists. Two, you are ignoring the fact that even before the civil conflict Russia was terribly primitive and backward. They didn&#39;t even have the standard Gregorian calendar until 1936&#33;&#33; (Even though a modified version of it was instated in 1918). Your argument lacks context.

Random Precision
21st November 2007, 23:04
Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+November 21, 2007 10:13 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM &#064; November 21, 2007 10:13 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 05:24 pm

Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 11:22 pm
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:
No, but he does touch on, in a tangential and sectarian way, a fairly important distinction between the two. Not the role of the bureaucracy, the redistribution of power amongst the Politburo only occurred with the toppling of Khrushchev, but the manner of rule. Khrushchev&#39;s reforms saw the end to the Stalinist economic model that relied almost exclusively on coercion, or "terror" if we&#39;re being dramatic. Real wages and living standards, which had been kept artificially low under Stalin, were permitted to rise and the economy made the necessary shift to a system where capital was accumulated via productive, as opposed to primitive, means.
You are falling victim to the usual propaganda against Stalin. For one, you are ignoring the reconstruction of Russia after the civil war with the whites and anarchists. Two, you are ignoring the fact that even before the civil conflict Russia was terribly primitive and backward. They didn&#39;t even have the standard Gregorian calendar until 1936&#33;&#33; (Even though a modified version of it was instated in 1918). Your argument lacks context. [/b]
How do you believe Stalin combatted the inefficiencies in the USSR&#39;s economy if it wasn&#39;t through coercion/terror?

Comrade Rage
21st November 2007, 23:08
Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 21, 2007 06:03 pm--> (Hope Lies in the Proles @ November 21, 2007 06:03 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 21, 2007 10:13 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 05:24 pm

Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 11:22 pm
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:
No, but he does touch on, in a tangential and sectarian way, a fairly important distinction between the two. Not the role of the bureaucracy, the redistribution of power amongst the Politburo only occurred with the toppling of Khrushchev, but the manner of rule. Khrushchev&#39;s reforms saw the end to the Stalinist economic model that relied almost exclusively on coercion, or "terror" if we&#39;re being dramatic. Real wages and living standards, which had been kept artificially low under Stalin, were permitted to rise and the economy made the necessary shift to a system where capital was accumulated via productive, as opposed to primitive, means.
You are falling victim to the usual propaganda against Stalin. For one, you are ignoring the reconstruction of Russia after the civil war with the whites and anarchists. Two, you are ignoring the fact that even before the civil conflict Russia was terribly primitive and backward. They didn&#39;t even have the standard Gregorian calendar until 1936&#33;&#33; (Even though a modified version of it was instated in 1918). Your argument lacks context.
How do you believe Stalin combatted the inefficiencies in the USSR&#39;s economy if it wasn&#39;t through coercion/terror? [/b]
I&#39;m not denying that coercion took place, I&#39;m just defending it&#39;s necessity.

It sounds brutal, but the DotP HAS to be brutal in order to build a Communist society.

A &#39;more reasoned&#39; approach to the DotP has been tried by Khrushchev. Brezhnev and Gorbachev was what was yielded.

Random Precision
22nd November 2007, 00:28
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 21, 2007 11:07 pm
I&#39;m not denying that coercion took place, I&#39;m just defending it&#39;s necessity.

It sounds brutal, but the DotP HAS to be brutal in order to build a Communist society.

A &#39;more reasoned&#39; approach to the DotP has been tried by Khrushchev. Brezhnev and Gorbachev was what was yielded.
Do you believe that it was also necessary that what you call the "dictatorship of the proletariat" (Stalin&#39;s economic system beginning with the Five Year Plans) was not run by the proletariat, but rather bureaucracy?

Unless you&#39;re planning to demonstrate how the Gosplan, etc. were really democratically run by the workers...

Comrade Rage
22nd November 2007, 00:36
Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 21, 2007 07:27 pm--> (Hope Lies in the Proles @ November 21, 2007 07:27 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 21, 2007 11:07 pm
I&#39;m not denying that coercion took place, I&#39;m just defending it&#39;s necessity.

It sounds brutal, but the DotP HAS to be brutal in order to build a Communist society.

A &#39;more reasoned&#39; approach to the DotP has been tried by Khrushchev. Brezhnev and Gorbachev was what was yielded.
Do you believe that it was also necessary that what you call the "dictatorship of the proletariat" (Stalin&#39;s economic system beginning with the Five Year Plans) was not run by the proletariat, but rather bureaucracy?

Unless you&#39;re planning to demonstrate how the Gosplan, etc. were really democratically run by the workers... [/b]
It was necessary at the time to administer those programs rather than operate them democratcally.

Axel1917
22nd November 2007, 01:38
Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 21, 2007 04:47 am
The term revisionist was around long before Stalin.
True, but used in today&#39;s common Stalinist context, it is arbitrary nonsense. There is no explanation at all of how China or the USSR suddenly became "revisionist." There is no explanation of how it became "revisionist," what the tendencies were that led in that direction, etc.

Die Neue Zeit
22nd November 2007, 02:49
Originally posted by ComradeOm+November 19, 2007 03:24 pm--> (ComradeOm &#064; November 19, 2007 03:24 pm)
Live for the [email protected] 13, 2007 11:22 pm
wow, piet, is that like, a new leap in scientific understanding? :lol:
No, but he does touch on, in a tangential and sectarian way, a fairly important distinction between the two. Not the role of the bureaucracy, the redistribution of power amongst the Politburo only occurred with the toppling of Khrushchev, but the manner of rule. Khrushchev&#39;s reforms saw the end to the Stalinist economic model that relied almost exclusively on coercion, or "terror" if we&#39;re being dramatic. Real wages and living standards, which had been kept artificially low under Stalin, were permitted to rise and the economy made the necessary shift to a system where capital was accumulated via productive, as opposed to primitive, means. [/b]
^^^ Indeed. For example, the minimum wage was first introduced in 1956. Furthermore, didn&#39;t Preobrazhensky cough up the crazy idea of "socialist" primitive accumulation (crazy only in his attachment of the word "socialist" to that very capitalist phenomenon, but the idea of rapid industrialization overall being very necessary).

On the organizational front, perhaps my original stuff regarding the post-Stalin "partyocracy" (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=69965) was wrong:

Rebuilding the Soviet Nomenklatura (http://monderusse.revues.org/docannexe4080.html)

More from historian Moshe Lewin:

The Soviet Century (http://books.google.ca/books?id=ETQpY-32DysC&dq=moshe+lewin+%22soviet+century%22&pg=PP1&ots=neGH4Rr8Op&sig=BfyvB_p8pnm1iCGO1nPfGLy6mic&prev=http://www.google.ca/search%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%253Aen-US%253Aofficial%26hs%3DbVM%26q%3Dmoshe%2Blewin%2B% 2522soviet%2Bcentury%2522%26btnG%3DSearch%26meta%3 D&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail)
Lenin&#39;s Last Struggle (http://books.google.ca/books?id=iheBbViwVksC&dq=moshe+lewin+lenin%27s+last&pg=PP1&ots=i54U22qeme&sig=KPxhQPCdudE94CYmJHIy9lQU-jg&prev=http://www.google.ca/search%3Fq%3Dmoshe%2Blewin%2Blenin%27s%2Blast%26ie %3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26client%3Dfirefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail)

I mentioned before that 1934 was the turning point for Stalin&#39;s POV regarding party-state relations. He turned against the party, and after the purges wanted the state to be paramount (John Lukacs) (http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001316.php).

Where I probably went wrong in my "partyocracy" stuff was the Brezhnev era and beyond, no? :huh:



Anyhow, I&#39;ll say this: while it&#39;s wrong to deem the Khrushchev era and beyond as "Stalinist," his era, the eras beyond, and the Stalin era were made from the same bureaucratic cloth. While the idea of "peaceful coexistence" was a fundamental "revisionist" betrayal of Stalin&#39;s continued belief in conflict, the "national-democratic revolution" BS of Brezhnev was perfectly consistent with Stalin&#39;s and Khrushchev&#39;s realpolitik (Guomindang and Egypt, respectively).

Random Precision
22nd November 2007, 04:53
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 22, 2007 12:35 am
It was necessary at the time to administer those programs rather than operate them democratcally.
You know, I have a lot more respect for Stalinists (excuse me, "anti-revisionists") such as yourself who actually admit that the workers never held any sort of power in Stalinist states rather than trying to cover up that basic fact with fancy language. So, good for you&#33; :)

That being said, I have one request: please stop calling the economic system of the USSR that Stalin established the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Either that or stop calling yourself a Marxist. Either one&#39;s fine by me&#33;

Oh, could I ask you to explain why bureaucratic administration of the economy was necessary for Stalin&#39;s USSR rather than democratic control by the workers? Were the workers too dumb or something?

Die Neue Zeit
22nd November 2007, 05:48
Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 21, 2007 09:52 pm--> (Hope Lies in the Proles &#064; November 21, 2007 09:52 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 22, 2007 12:35 am
It was necessary at the time to administer those programs rather than operate them democratcally.
You know, I have a lot more respect for Stalinists (excuse me, "anti-revisionists") such as yourself who actually admit that the workers never held any sort of power in Stalinist states rather than trying to cover up that basic fact with fancy language. So, good for you&#33; :)

That being said, I have one request: please stop calling the economic system of the USSR that Stalin established the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Either that or stop calling yourself a Marxist. Either one&#39;s fine by me&#33;

Oh, could I ask you to explain why bureaucratic administration of the economy was necessary for Stalin&#39;s USSR rather than democratic control by the workers? Were the workers too dumb or something? [/b]
^^^ You know, if I were still a Stalinist, I too would&#39;ve used the same honest words that he did.

In terms of your "request," I didn&#39;t know at that time the difference between the RDDOTPP and the DOTP proper. However, if I were still a Stalinist, having known more now, I would still insist using the former term.

Now, on to your third question (and this coming from a non-Stalinist POV): rapid industrialization, having just undergone a late entry into the capitalist mode of production, cannot by definition be achieved by "democratic control." Leo here stated the four positions regarding NEP/industrialization and revolution/realpolitik (Lenin, Bukharin, Stalin, and Trotsky). He also stated that even the rapid industrialization that Trotsky was pushing for could not have been achieved without the elephantine bureaucracy.

[Speaking of which, I saw a couple of weeks ago a documentary on the construction of the Great Pyramid. While it only took only a couple of thousand non-slaves to build the thing, the bureaucracy around the construction was much more massive (accounting for construction materials, feeding the workers, etc.).]

Personally, Stalin didn&#39;t "distort" the Left Opposition&#39;s call for rapid industrialization; he implemented their program in the only realistic way possible within the paradigm of state capitalism. That was why Lenin wanted to preserve NEP further into the future than 1929 and preserve the trade-union bureaucracy so cherished by the right-communist Workers&#39; Opposition, thus ignoring Trotsky&#39;s calls for rapid industrialization and union militarization - to limit the influence of the state bureaucracy&#33;

Random Precision
22nd November 2007, 19:29
Originally posted by Hammer+November 22, 2007 05:47 am--> (Hammer &#064; November 22, 2007 05:47 am) That was why Lenin wanted to preserve NEP further into the future than 1929 and preserve the trade-union bureaucracy so cherished by the right-communist Workers&#39; Opposition, thus ignoring Trotsky&#39;s calls for rapid industrialization and union militarization - to limit the influence of the state bureaucracy&#33; [/b]
Really? Because here is what Lenin had to say about the NEP at the last party congress he was able to attend:


V.I. Lenin
Here we have lived a year, with the state in our hands, and under the New Economic Policy has it operated our way? No. We don’t like to acknowledge this, but it hasn’t. And how has it operated? The machine isn’t going where we guide it, but where some illegal, or lawless, or God-knows-whence-derived speculators or private capitalistic businessmen, or both together, are guiding it. A machine doesn’t always travel just exactly the way, and it often travels just exactly not the way, that the man imagines who sits at the wheel.

- Quoted in the Platform of the Opposition (I&#39;ll try to find the primary source later.)

I&#39;ll try to respond to the rest of your post later, now I have to work on dinner&#33;

bezdomni
22nd November 2007, 19:43
Originally posted by Axel1917+November 22, 2007 01:37 am--> (Axel1917 @ November 22, 2007 01:37 am)
Compañ[email protected] 21, 2007 04:47 am
The term revisionist was around long before Stalin.
True, but used in today&#39;s common Stalinist context, it is arbitrary nonsense. There is no explanation at all of how China or the USSR suddenly became "revisionist." There is no explanation of how it became "revisionist," what the tendencies were that led in that direction, etc. [/b]
lol, while the trotskyite terms "stalinist" and "deformed workers state" are scientific and deeply rooted in reality.

The experiences of the Russian and Chinese revolutions show that the bourgeoisie arise within the Communist Party itself. In order to preserve socialism, it is necessary for the masses to recognize and rebel against the bourgeois tendencies within the party.

This is different from the method used by Stalin, which was basically to "purge it all out" mechanistically without relying on the masses. This is very incorrect because the lines of people like Trotsky and Zinoviev are never throughly repudiated, so it gives a strong basis for revisionism later on and actually ends up crippling the consciousness of the masses.

Marsella
22nd November 2007, 20:34
The experiences of the Russian and Chinese revolutions show that the bourgeoisie arise within the Communist Party itself. In order to preserve socialism, it is necessary for the masses to recognize and rebel against the bourgeois tendencies within the party.

SovietPants, may I ask how exactly they are to do that?

The Author
22nd November 2007, 20:45
Originally posted by [email protected] November 22, 2007, 2:45 p.m.
This is different from the method used by Stalin, which was basically to "purge it all out" mechanistically without relying on the masses. This is very incorrect because the lines of people like Trotsky and Zinoviev are never throughly repudiated, so it gives a strong basis for revisionism later on and actually ends up crippling the consciousness of the masses.


Some comrades think that people can only be checked up on from above, when the leaders check up on subordinates, on the results of their work. This is not true. Check-up from above is necessary, of course, as one of the effective measures for verifying people and checking up the fulfilment of tasks. But verification from above does not exhaust by far the whole business of verification. There is still another kind of verification, the check-up from below, in which the masses, the subordinates, verify the leaders, point out their mistakes, and show the way of correcting them. This kind of verification is one of the most effective methods of checking up on people.

The rank-and-file members verify their leaders at meetings of active Party workers, at conferences and congresses, by listening to their reports, by criticizing defects, and finally by electing or not electing some or other leading comrades to the leading Party organs. Precise operation of democratic centralism in the Party as demanded by our Party statutes, unconditional electiveness of Party organs, the right to put forward and to withdraw candidates, the secret ballot and freedom of criticism and self-criticism -- all these and similar measures must be carred into life, in order to facilitate the check-up on, and control over, the leaders of the Party by the rank-and-file Party members.

The non-Party masses check their economic, trade union and other leaders at meetings of non-Party active workers, at all kinds of mass conferences, where they hear reports of their leaders, criticize defects and indicate ways or correcting them. Finally, the people check leaders of the country during the elections to the Soviet Union organs of power, through universal, equal, direct and secret ballot.

The task is to link up the check from above with that from below.

J.V. Stalin, Mastering Bolshevism (http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/MB37.html)


Everybody, from the Anarchists, Trotskyists, and even the Maoists, who attribute every achievement or mistake in Soviet, Chinese or other communist history to Stalin and Khrushchev and Mao, etc. alone are in the wrong. Attributing everything that went wrong to individuals is not studying the historical question in the dialectical materialist manner. It&#39;s purely "Great Man" thinking- idealism. Processes of history happen by classes, not by individuals.


People ask, what is revisionism? Well, Lenin said (http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/DELM10.html)


The principal tactical differences in the present-day labour movement of Europe and America reduce themselves to a struggle against two big trends that are departing from Marxism, which has in fact become the dominant theory in this movement. These two trends are revisionism (opportunism, reformism) and anarchism (anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-socialism). Both these departures from the Marxist theory and Marxist tactics that are dominant in the labour movement were to be observed in various forms and in various shades in all civilised countries during the more than half-century of history of the mass labour movement.

...

Not infrequently, the bourgeoisie for a certain time achieves its object by a "liberal" policy, which, as Pannekoek justly remarks, is a "more crafty" policy. A part of the workers and a part of their representatives at times allow themselves to be deceived by seeming concessions. The revisionists declare that the doctrine of the class struggle is "antiquated", or begin to conduct a policy which is in fact a renunciation of the class struggle. The zigzags of bourgeois tactics intensify revisionism within the labour movement and not infrequently bring the differences within the labour movement to the point of an outright split.

Revisionism says the class struggle is antiquated. We can live in "peaceful co-existence with the bourgeoisie. Peaceful co-existence of the two social systems (socialism and imperialism) is a definite possibility. We do not armed struggle to win a revolution, mere parliamentary vote is all that is required." Khrushchev once mentioned that the capitalist encirclement of the U.S.S.R. had ended, despite the presence of N.A.T.O. and U.S. army forces. Then the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis showed that the capitalist encirclement is still a danger. Revisionism said we could sustain a long-term peace with imperialism. Yet the Cold War, and now this War on Terror show that peace can never be possible, so long as imperialism exists. For imperialism, as a social system, requires markets and resources to ensure the survival of monopoly-capitalism. And in the end, war is the logical result of imperialism&#39;s desires to acquire said markets and resources.

Khrushchev said at the 20th Congress, "Stalin’s report at the February-March Central Committee Plenum in 1937, &#39;Deficiencies of Party work and methods for the liquidation of the Trotskyites and of other two-facers,&#39; contained an attempt at theoretical justification of the mass terror policy under the pretext that class war must allegedly sharpen as we march forward toward socialism. Stalin asserted that both history and Lenin taught him this. Actually Lenin taught that the application of revolutionary violence is necessitated by the resistance of the exploiting classes, and this referred to the era when the exploiting classes existed and were powerful."

Khrushchev, as representative of the revisionist degeneration of the C.P.S.U., wanted the masses to believe that class war was antiquated, that the exploiting classes no longer existed in the Soviet Union since the Russian Civil War. History proved otherwise. You had the agents and spies of the bourgeoisie constantly harassing the Soviet Union throughout the 1920s and 1930s, bureaucratic rot in the Communist Party that, if left unchecked, would destroy the socialist revolution. In fact, Stalin said in that very paper which Khrushchev is citing, that "How can it be explained that our leading comrades, who have a rich experience of struggle against every kind of anti-Party and anti-Soviet trend, proved to be so blind and naive in this case that they were unable to recognize the real face of the enemies of the people, were unable to discern the wolves in sheep&#39;s clothing, were unable to tear the mask from them?" If the Party is not led by the masses, does not fight these revisionist trends, it will rot and degenerate into a bureaucratic nightmare. Which is precisely what happened in the Khrushchevite period. The Khrushchevites essentially renounced the class struggle so that they could get away with their bureaucratic deficiencies. Changes quantitatively in the base and superstructure began to occur with a new criminal code, a new party program, economic reforms that allowed more market involvement. Gradually, as the years would pass, this would all lead to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

An entire article, discussing the class origin of the Khrushchevite counter-revolution in the U.S.S.R., was composed by Alexei Danko and has been published in Northstar Compass. Feel free to browse it here: http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc0612/pg26.htm

China launched the Cultural Revolution. Although there were excesses, revisionism in one form had been liquidated. But you have to remember, that the existence of imperialism, and the presence of contradictions in the socialist country, still create the conditions for a revival of revisionism. But revisionism takes on a new form, it assumes a new character. The class war was growing more sharper. It was this new round of revisionism that the Cultural Revolution did not fight, and ultimately, revisionism got the upper hand because the Red Guards and mass cadres trained to fight, had slipped behind and did not launch a new struggle against this new form of revisionism.

And so China, under the Dengists, also renounced the class struggle. As Hu Jintao said at the 17th Congress of the CPC (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-10/25/content_6204663_2.htm): "We must never forget that the great cause of reform and opening up was initiated by the Party&#39;s second generation of central collective leadership with Comrade Deng Xiaoping at its core leading the whole Party and the people of all ethnic groups in the endeavor. In a precarious situation left by the "cultural revolution" (1966-76), the second generation of central collective leadership, persisting in emancipating the mind and seeking truth from facts and displaying immense political and theoretical courage, made a scientific appraisal of Comrade Mao Zedong and Mao Zedong Thought, thoroughly repudiated the erroneous theory and practice of "taking class struggle as the key link," and made the historic policy decision to shift the focus of the work of the Party and the state onto economic development and introduce reform and opening up. It established the basic line for the primary stage of socialism, sounded the clarion call of the times for taking our own road and building socialism with Chinese characteristics, founded Deng Xiaoping Theory, and led the whole Party and the people of all ethnic groups in striding forward on the great journey of reform and opening up."

That is why the Khrushchevites were revisionists.

Cmde. Slavyanski
22nd November 2007, 22:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 08:33 pm

The experiences of the Russian and Chinese revolutions show that the bourgeoisie arise within the Communist Party itself. In order to preserve socialism, it is necessary for the masses to recognize and rebel against the bourgeois tendencies within the party.

SovietPants, may I ask how exactly they are to do that?
Thanks to past experience, this process is far easier and painless. Revisionist ideas and other reformist, half-assed, or idealistic approaches have been tried throughout the socialist world since the end of WWII- all of them have failed miserably. New Bolsheviks need only point out in public, when such ideas arise, what the results of those roads were. This should be encouraged through the creation of various forms of public fora dedicated to the discussion of the direction of socialist construction in the nation in question. When ideas arise that show a clear link with old, failed ideas of the past(and this also includes some dogmatic ideas of the genuine socialist era), the party should point out that link and spark a struggle among the masses against them.

Belarus, though it is not a socialist state, provides a great modern example of how people armed with memory, kept alive by some political party, easily fight off attempts to dupe people a second or third time. While the west alleges, without proof, that Lukashenko&#39;s popularity is somehow of a shady character, the reality is simply that Belorussians are aware of the very real, very visible effects of Lukashenko&#39;s policies; and at the same time they remember what trust in the west brought them. Unfortunately Ukrainians are still teetering between two sides thanks to nationalism, and Muscovites seem to have their head so far up Putin&#39;s ass they can&#39;t decide what they want.

Die Neue Zeit
23rd November 2007, 05:34
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 01:44 pm
That is why the Khrushchevites were revisionists.
Going back to Marxist analysis, though, isn&#39;t your argument on the superstructural side of things (ie, a change of policy)?


Changes quantitatively in the base and superstructure began to occur with a new criminal code, a new party program, economic reforms that allowed more market involvement.

As I said in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=73454), that can be explained away by the lack of further need for "socialist" primitive accumulation.

The Author
23rd November 2007, 06:22
Originally posted by Hammer+ November 23, 2007, 12:45 a.m.--> (Hammer &#064; November 23, 2007, 12:45 a.m.)Going back to Marxist analysis, though, isn&#39;t your argument on the superstructural side of things (ie, a change of policy)?[/b]


Me
An entire article, discussing the class origin of the Khrushchevite counter-revolution in the U.S.S.R., was composed by Alexei Danko and has been published in Northstar Compass. Feel free to browse it here: http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc0612/pg26.htm


The war and the severe military consequences inflicted tremendous losses on the Soviet Union not only from the class, material point of view and in terms of population, but also strengthened a number of dangerous tendencies for the dictatorship of the proletariat.

The war period demanded that the economy re-direct the focus of the development of the forces of production and the efforts of all of society on the needs of the struggle against the fascist aggression. In the course of accomplishing this goal the production relations also suffered changes toward a strictly top-down structure. This shift took place not only in the organization of the economy but in all fields of social life including politics. The need to liquidate the most severe consequences of the war also required a speedy economic restoration and the development of the forces of production under a regime of general mobilization.

The development of production relations seriously lagged behind the development of the forces of production as a result of these extreme measures and conditions, and not only as a result of the inertia so characteristic of production relations in general.

Under the pressure and the disguise of these and other adverse conditions the functions of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the development of proletarian democracy were significantly hampered. The dictatorship of the proletariat was then applied from top to bottom, mostly as a result of the activity and authority of the leading organs of the Bolshevik party, and the development of proletarian democracy in society was basically reduced to endorsing the government and party decisions produced at the top.

The strictly top-down character of the management of economic and social life seriously weakened the class control from below of the activity of the apparatus and the intellectual elite. This lack of control from below led to the social alienation and petty-bourgeoisie decomposition of the apparatus. As a result, the petty-bourgeois interests and actions of the managers and intellectual elites began to diverge from the class interests of the proletariat.

The situation worsened from the class-political point of view due to the replacement of managerial cadre as the result of personnel losses during the war. The replacements came mostly from demobilized army cadre and specialists of war industry who traditionally, in virtue of the organizational specifics of their previous activity, resisted the development of proletarian democracy in production and social relations, and even most probably did not understand the danger to the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism concealed in their actions.

Form emanates from content. The Khrushchevite superstructure emanated from the material conditions such as these.

OneBrickOneVoice
23rd November 2007, 06:42
Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 22, 2007 12:27 am--> (Hope Lies in the Proles &#064; November 22, 2007 12:27 am)
COMRADE [email protected] 21, 2007 11:07 pm
I&#39;m not denying that coercion took place, I&#39;m just defending it&#39;s necessity.

It sounds brutal, but the DotP HAS to be brutal in order to build a Communist society.

A &#39;more reasoned&#39; approach to the DotP has been tried by Khrushchev. Brezhnev and Gorbachev was what was yielded.
Do you believe that it was also necessary that what you call the "dictatorship of the proletariat" (Stalin&#39;s economic system beginning with the Five Year Plans) was not run by the proletariat, but rather bureaucracy?

Unless you&#39;re planning to demonstrate how the Gosplan, etc. were really democratically run by the workers... [/b]

ARTICLE 2. The Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies, which grew and attained strength as a result of the overthrow of the landlords and capitalists and the achievement of the dictatorship of the proletariat, constitute the political foundation of the U.S.S.R.

ARTICLE 3. In the U.S.S.R. all power belongs to the working people of town and country as represented by the Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies.

ARTICLE 4. The socialist system of economy and the socialist ownership of the means and instruments of production firmly established as a result of the abolition of the capitalist system of economy, the abrogation of private ownership of the means and instruments of production and the abolition of the exploitation of man by man, constitute&#39; the economic foundation of the U.S.S.R.

...

ARTICLE 11. The economic life of the U.S.S.R. is determined and directed by the state national economic plan with the aim of increasing the public wealth, of steadily improving the material conditions of the working people and raising their cultural level, of consolidating the independence of the U.S.S.R. and strengthening its defensive capacity.

Chapter 1, 1936 Constitution of the USSR (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons01.html)

OneBrickOneVoice
23rd November 2007, 06:49
That is why the Khrushchevites were revisionists.

yes but you&#39;re still falling into the "history of great men" analysis. This means that the right wing of the party held power after Stalin and Mao in the USSR and the PRC. Doesn&#39;t necessarily mean that the state became a imperialist power overnight. the USSR may have entered a period of detente with imperialism during Khrushchev, but it began to spread internationalist solidarity with socialist struggle far more than it had before from Cuba to Vietnam to all over the world

Random Precision
24th November 2007, 02:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 06:41 am

ARTICLE 2. The Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies, which grew and attained strength as a result of the overthrow of the landlords and capitalists and the achievement of the dictatorship of the proletariat, constitute the political foundation of the U.S.S.R.

ARTICLE 3. In the U.S.S.R. all power belongs to the working people of town and country as represented by the Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies.

ARTICLE 4. The socialist system of economy and the socialist ownership of the means and instruments of production firmly established as a result of the abolition of the capitalist system of economy, the abrogation of private ownership of the means and instruments of production and the abolition of the exploitation of man by man, constitute&#39; the economic foundation of the U.S.S.R.

...

ARTICLE 11. The economic life of the U.S.S.R. is determined and directed by the state national economic plan with the aim of increasing the public wealth, of steadily improving the material conditions of the working people and raising their cultural level, of consolidating the independence of the U.S.S.R. and strengthening its defensive capacity.

Chapter 1, 1936 Constitution of the USSR (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons01.html)
Yea, the Stalin Constitution was worded in a very egalitarian manner and defended an awful lot of rights. Unfortunately the reality was much different than its rosy language.

So, what I meant by proof that the workers were in control was proof in practice. Good luck finding that. :lol:

Marsella
24th November 2007, 02:50
Stalin&#39;s Constitution no more proves the world is flat, than the USSR was controlled by workers.

I mean it guaranteed freedom of speech and assembly for fuck&#39;s sake&#33; :lol:

It would be like me pointing to the Bill of Rights and showing how democratic and free America is. <_<

Die Neue Zeit
24th November 2007, 05:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 11:21 pm

The situation worsened from the class-political point of view due to the replacement of managerial cadre as the result of personnel losses during the war. The replacements came mostly from demobilized army cadre and specialists of war industry who traditionally, in virtue of the organizational specifics of their previous activity, resisted the development of proletarian democracy in production and social relations, and even most probably did not understand the danger to the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialism concealed in their actions.
Interesting to see overlapping observations between the article and this post-war article by Moshe Lewin (http://monderusse.revues.org/docannexe4080.html). Thanks&#33; :)

OneBrickOneVoice
25th November 2007, 01:18
Originally posted by Hope Lies in the Proles+November 24, 2007 02:16 am--> (Hope Lies in the Proles @ November 24, 2007 02:16 am)
[email protected] 23, 2007 06:41 am

ARTICLE 2. The Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies, which grew and attained strength as a result of the overthrow of the landlords and capitalists and the achievement of the dictatorship of the proletariat, constitute the political foundation of the U.S.S.R.

ARTICLE 3. In the U.S.S.R. all power belongs to the working people of town and country as represented by the Soviets of Working People&#39;s Deputies.

ARTICLE 4. The socialist system of economy and the socialist ownership of the means and instruments of production firmly established as a result of the abolition of the capitalist system of economy, the abrogation of private ownership of the means and instruments of production and the abolition of the exploitation of man by man, constitute&#39; the economic foundation of the U.S.S.R.

...

ARTICLE 11. The economic life of the U.S.S.R. is determined and directed by the state national economic plan with the aim of increasing the public wealth, of steadily improving the material conditions of the working people and raising their cultural level, of consolidating the independence of the U.S.S.R. and strengthening its defensive capacity.

Chapter 1, 1936 Constitution of the USSR (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons01.html)
Yea, the Stalin Constitution was worded in a very egalitarian manner and defended an awful lot of rights. Unfortunately the reality was much different than its rosy language.

So, what I meant by proof that the workers were in control was proof in practice. Good luck finding that. :lol: [/b]
What do you mean? Shit was done according to the constitution. How do you expect one to "prove in practice". The truth of the matter is that surplus value was going to funding people&#39;s needs, wages rose, working hours decreased from tsarist/provisional times despite mass industrialization in working class communities. The Soviets remained the basis of the political system until 1991. If it was capitalist, then why was the working class benefiting so much from the economic order?


I mean it guaranteed freedom of speech and assembly for fuck&#39;s sake&#33;

Yes except for those organizing counterrevolution. It&#39;s called a Dictatorship of the proletariat.

Random Precision
25th November 2007, 01:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:17 am
What do you mean? Shit was done according to the constitution. How do you expect one to "prove in practice". The truth of the matter is that surplus value was going to funding people&#39;s needs, wages rose, working hours decreased from tsarist/provisional times despite mass industrialization in working class communities. The Soviets remained the basis of the political system until 1991. If it was capitalist, then why was the working class benefiting so much from the economic order?
As I thought, you are unable to find any. The kind of proof I was looking for was more to the tune of witness accounts, documentation of how the workers controlled each factory and industry, etc., etc.

All the improvements in quality of life and so on are just fine and dandy, but they don&#39;t amount to much at all if the workers are not in power.

We can no more accept that "shit" such as "workers&#39; control of the economy and government" was done according to the Stalin Constitution than "shit" such as "right to a fair and speedy trial" is currently done according to the US Constitution if it just says so in the document. You really are more intelligent than that, Henry.

bezdomni
26th November 2007, 06:50
I don&#39;t think anyone here is really expressing a materialist analysis. Martov and Hope Lies in the Proles are right in saying that just because something (like free expression) are guaranteed in the Soviet Constitution is no guarantee that they were actually upheld. Because, in fact, they weren&#39;t consistently upheld.

As materialists, we need to admit that there was definitely suppression that happened in the Soviet Union (and even in China) that should not have happened. We need to have the honesty to tell the truth about these facts, but also have the courage to actually learn from these facts. Namely, that we need to allow for reactionaries to publicly and freely express their opinions so that we can actually learn from them...but we also need to realize that revolutions are unstable things and sometimes the suppression of reactionaries is necessary.

As materialists, we also can&#39;t dismiss the Soviet Union as not being "actual socialism" just because some bad things happened. To not defend entirely what the Soviet Union actually represented in the world at its time is outright anti-communism (although to not criticize much of what actually went on is also very incorrect).

What was the fundamental characteristic of the Soviet Union? Did the proletariat essentially have state and economic power, or did the bourgeoisie? Unless you want to make some interesting claim that the Soviet Union was actually feudalist...either one of the two classes had state and economic power, or you are not actually a materialist.

Criticizing the bureaucratic nature of the Soviet Union is great...but clinging to the idealist fantasy that a bureaucracy can somehow seize state power for itself and overthrow the proletariat is plainly not Marxism.

Led Zeppelin
26th November 2007, 11:01
And also, criticizing the bureaucratic nature of the Soviet Union is great...but clinging to the idealist fantasy that a "revisionist group" can somehow seize state power for itself and overthrow the proletariat is plainly not Marxism.

Ismail
26th November 2007, 11:21
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 26, 2007 06:00 am
but clinging to the idealist fantasy that a "revisionist group" can somehow seize state power for itself and overthrow the proletariat is plainly not Marxism.
Bullshit. Khrushchev changed the structure of the Soviet Union. He (with the backing of other bureaucrats) merged offices, destroyed others, and declared that "Stalinism" should be no more. He was a revisionist. Brezhnev, an even bigger revisionist, then reformed the economy, liberalizing it. To deny that after Stalin died, changes were made is foolish.

Led Zeppelin
26th November 2007, 11:54
Originally posted by Mrdie+November 26, 2007 11:20 am--> (Mrdie @ November 26, 2007 11:20 am)
Led [email protected] 26, 2007 06:00 am
but clinging to the idealist fantasy that a "revisionist group" can somehow seize state power for itself and overthrow the proletariat is plainly not Marxism.
Bullshit. Khrushchev changed the structure of the Soviet Union. He (with the backing of other bureaucrats) merged offices, destroyed others, and declared that "Stalinism" should be no more. He was a revisionist. Brezhnev, an even bigger revisionist, then reformed the economy, liberalizing it. To deny that after Stalin died, changes were made is foolish. [/b]
Damn, my bad, I didn&#39;t realize that the death of one man could cause the "revisionists" to somehow seize state power for themselves and overthrow the proletariat.

I love how much you know about Marxism, you must have read a lot about it.

Ismail
26th November 2007, 12:13
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 26, 2007 06:53 am
Damn, my bad, I didn&#39;t realize that the death of one man could cause the "revisionists" to somehow seize state power for themselves and overthrow the proletariat.
Nice simplification. The rise of revisionism happened during Stalin&#39;s lifetime, but not openly for obvious reasons. The building up of the cult of personality by others (such as Khrushchev himself) for example had distanced him from the proletariat. When Khrushchev rose to power, the dictatorship of the proletariat remained. It was not until gradual changes were made that the dictatorship of the proletariat ended. I&#39;d put it around the time Brezhnev did his economic reforms.

It&#39;s pretty obvious for example that Stalin considered Tito a renegade, whereas Khrushchev and co upheld him as a Marxist-Leninist. Soon, due to the Soviet Union&#39;s increasingly "Follow us or we&#39;ll make you" colonialist stance towards members of the Warsaw Pact, the various nations of said pact went from condemning Tito to supporting him. It was things like this that led to the end of the dictatorship of the proletariat, not strawman arguments.