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jacobin1949
8th November 2007, 22:55
For once I think the libs have it better than any Marxist party. One thing is the USA would be 70% Cathloc is few years. Could be a problem. Although I guess Latinos would be balanced by Buddhist/secular East Asians.

From the official LP platform

IV.1 Immigration
The Issue: Our borders are currently neither open, closed, nor secure. This situation restricts the labor pool, encouraging employers to hire undocumented workers, while leaving those workers neither subject to nor protected by the law. A completely open border allows foreign criminals, carriers of communicable diseases, terrorists and other potential threats to enter the country unchecked. Pandering politicians guarantee access to public services for undocumented aliens, to the detriment of those who would enter to work productively, and increasing the burden on taxpayers.
The Principle: The legitimate function and obligation of government to protect the lives, rights and property of its citizens, requires awareness of and control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health or property. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demands that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders.
Solutions: Borders will be secure, with free entry to those who have demonstrated compliance with certain requirements. The terms and conditions of entry into the United States must be simple and clearly spelled out. Documenting the entry of individuals must be restricted to screening for criminal background and threats to public health and national security. It is the obligation of the prospective immigrant to demonstrate compliance with these requirements. Once effective immigration policies are in place, general amnesties will no longer be necessary.
Transitional Action: Ensure immigration requirements include only appropriate documentation, screening for criminal background and threats to public health and national security. Simplifying the immigration process and redeployment of surveillance technology to focus on the borders will encourage the use of regular and monitored entry points, thus preventing trespass and saving lives. End federal requirements that benefits and services be provided to those in the country illegally. Repeal all measures that punish employers for hiring undocumented workers. Repeal all immigration quotas.

The benefits of open immigration


BY MICHAEL TANNER
America has always been a nation of immigrants. Thomas Jefferson emphasized this basic part of the American heritage, taking note of "the natural right which all men have of relinquishing the country in which birth or other accident may have thrown them, and seeking subsistence and happiness wheresoever they may be able, and hope to find them."
The Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States. At the same time, we recognize that the right to enter the United States does not include the right to economic entitlements such as welfare. The freedom to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of a handout.
A policy of open immigration will advance the economic well-being of all Americans. All major recent studies of immigrants indicate that they have a high labor force participation, are entrepreneurial, and tend to have specialized skills that allow them to enter under-served markets. Although it is a common misconception that immigrants "take jobs away from native-born Americans," this does not appear to be true. In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."
Indeed, most studies show that immigrants actually lead to an increase in the number of jobs available. Immigrants produce jobs in several ways: 1) They expand the demand for goods and services through their own consumption; 2) They bring savings with them that contribute to overall investment and productivity; 3) They are more highly entrepreneurial than native-born Americans and create jobs through the businesses they start; 4) They fill gaps in the low and high ends of the labor markets, producing subsidiary jobs for American workers; 5) Low-wage immigrants may enable threatened American businesses to survive competition from low-wage businesses abroad; and 6) They contribute to increased economic efficiencies through economies of scale.
Confirmation can be seen in a study by economists Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway of Ohio University and Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute. They found that states with the highest rates of immigration during the 1980s also had the highest rates of economic growth and lowest rates of unemployment.
Studies also show that not only do immigrants not take jobs away from American workers, they also do not drive down wages. Numerous studies have demonstrated that increased immigration has little or no effect on the wages of most American workers, and may even increase wages at upper income levels.
Contrary to stereotypes, there is no evidence that immigrants come to this country to receive welfare. Indeed, most studies show that immigrants actually use welfare at lower rates than do native-born Americans. For example, a study of welfare recipients in New York City found that only 7.7% of immigrants were receiving welfare compared to 13.3% for the population as a whole. Likewise, a nationwide study by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics found that 12.8% of immigrants were receiving welfare benefits, compared to 13.9% of the general population. Some recent studies indicate that the rate of welfare usage may now be equalizing between immigrants and native-born Americans, but, clearly, most immigrants are not on welfare.
The impact of immigrants on taxes is more equivocal. Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits. However, the majority of immigrant taxes are paid to the federal government, while immigrants tend to use mostly state and local services. This can place a burden on states and localities in high immigration areas.
However, the answer to this problem lies not in cutting off immigration, but in cutting the services that immigrants consume. The right to immigrate does not imply a right to welfare -- or any other government service. Moreover, this is not simply a matter of saving tax money. The Libertarian Party believes that most government welfare programs are destructive to the recipients themselves. Thus, immigrants would actually be better off without access to these programs. As Edward Crane, President of the Cato Institute, has put it:
"Suppose we increased the level of immigration, but the rule would be that immigrants and their descendants would have no access to government social services, including welfare, Social Security, health care, business subsidies, and the public schools. I would argue, first, that there would be no lack of takers for that proposition. Second, within a generation, we would see those immigrants' children going to better and cheaper schools than the average citizen; there would be less poverty, a better work ethic, and proportionately more entrepreneurs than in the rest of U.S. society; and virtually everyone in that group would have inexpensive high-deductible catastrophic health insurance, while the 'truly needy' would be cared for by an immigrant culture that gave proportionately more to charity."
Finally, any discussion of immigration must include a warning about the threat to civil liberties posed by many of the proposals to limit immigration. Recent legislation to restrict immigration has included calls for a national identity card for all Americans. Senator Diane Feinstein (CA-D) has suggested that such an ID card should contain an individual's photograph, fingerprints, and even retina scans. Representative Lamar Smith (R-TX) has proposed legislation that would require employers to consult a national registry of workers before hiring anyone, effectively giving the U.S. government control over every hiring decision by every business in America.
Other legislation has contained provisions penalizing people who fail to "inform" on people they "suspect" might be illegal immigrants. Such Orwellian nightmares have no place in a free society, but are the natural outgrowth of an obsession with restricting immigration.

Dean
8th November 2007, 22:57
How are libertarians "better than Marxists" on this issue? I think nearly all Marxists support open, free borders.

Demogorgon
8th November 2007, 23:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 10:57 pm
How are libertarians "better than Marxists" on this issue? I think nearly all Marxists support open, free borders.
Yes, whereas I can not help but notice most Libertarians prefer to pander to racism than stick up for the oh so lofty principles in the original post.

spartan
8th November 2007, 23:26
I hope that you have not fallen for Libertarianism jacobin1949? :(

jacobin1949
9th November 2007, 00:40
Hey even the nuts at MIM endorsed the libertarians

Jazzratt
9th November 2007, 00:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 12:40 am
Hey even the nuts at MIM endorsed the libertarians
This is not a fact in their favour. (MIM or the libertarians)

lvleph
9th November 2007, 01:07
Are there any true Leftists that don't believe in open borders? I mean how can one claim to support workers, if one does not allow those workers to pursue their trade where ever they feel?

Demogorgon
9th November 2007, 01:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 12:40 am
Hey even the nuts at MIM endorsed the libertarians
Birds of a feather...

Schrödinger's Cat
9th November 2007, 03:05
Open borders, as libertarians call it, are just a means of getting cheap labor from the system. The libertarians know there is a market to exploit our brothers and sisters with if they just moved north. There is no such thing as an open border policy until the exploitation that comes with moving is eliminated. Thus, libertarians fail to do anything but satisfy greed. They'll harp on the illegals overbearing the security systems in place, calling for the systems to end so they don't have to "waist their money," but in the next sentence they'll turn around and wave in cheap labor.

It's disgusting.

hajduk
9th November 2007, 12:54
i am for open borders becouse during Yugoslavia with yugoslav passport i can travel where i whant and on a border lines the border man never check me out,becouse eveyone heard about Yugoslavia and Tito
today if i whant go somewhere first i must standing in a row for hours in front of ambassy and then i have to make interviev with secretary and then i have to pay and even if you pay there is big possibility that you dont get visa bullshit <_<

jacobin1949
9th November 2007, 15:27
The CPUSA for example supports immigration but also agrees that immigration hurts native wages.

Maoist Internationalist Movement
A Maoist review of the Libertarian Party candidate for president

See our elections web page

October 29, 2004 by [email protected]

Michael Badnarik for President
Richard Campagna for Vice
www.badnarik.org

We know that some thinking people are not going to take our advice and stay home from u.&#036;. elections. One consideration is Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik.

Badnarik offers what Howard Dean apparently offered--opposition to the Iraq War and the Patriot Act--and without the baggage of being part of a major corporate party. Badnarik has the sense to place these two issues most prominently on his web page. When we recall that Kerry co-authored the Patriot Act and voted for the Iraq War, it&#39;s hard to deny that Badnarik is an alternative.

In truth, if Badnarik could deliver on the often-stated Libertarian position that "The U.S. Government&#39;s foreign imperialism has always ended with horrendous results. . . By promoting national defense rather than international offense, Badnarik would bring home our troops from the over 130 countries where the U.S. Military currently maintains a presence, and subsequently secure America more than any current plan offered by the Democrats and Republicans"--we should put up with everything else he says and back him to the hilt. It&#39;s completely unrealistic to think there will ever be global peace and security without this modicum of understanding that Badnarik shows.

Even Ralph Nader does not put such an emphasis on anti-militarism; although Ralph Nader&#39;s theory of foreign policy might be a little more sophisticated. Based on what Ralph Nader has said about immigration and treaties, we&#39;d also have to say Bush would be better on the question of the INS and Badnarik far better than both.

There is no doubting that libertarianism is quintessentially Amerikan. At the same time, given what we have seen from the other candidates, there is no doubt that we respect voters who look at the Patriot Act and the war and decide Badnarik is their man. Libertarian voters may really be good people with some illusions about how the world works. It&#39;s harder to say that people voting for Bush or Kerry have good intentions.

Patriot Act, Iraq war, INS--thus far we agree. Libertarians may be shocked to hear that we even agree with this: "Free trade is a necessary component in ushering in a peaceful tomorrow." The difference is what stage we believe free trade occurs at.

In case libertarians have not noticed, they have failed in implementing their free trade utopia on the agenda since the late 1700s and the days of Adam Smith. The truth is that the free trade utopia is a subset of the communist utopia. It is simply not possible without communist preconditions.

Capitalism is incompatible with the conditions of free trade. Small businesses inevitably become larger and inevitably form organizations formally or tantamount to government. On this point it hardly matters if a city government hires police or a wealthy company hires Pinkertons. Company towns and public towns often do the same exact things. Nader shares the same underlying confusion as Libertarians about the roots of freedom.

For the foreseeable future there is going to be large scale organization, whether that is a corporation or a government, and bureaucratically-speaking it often does not matter which. The humyn being has no choice but to learn how to organize on a large-scale internationally but consistent with freedom. Along these lines, private property is completely inconsistent with freedom. Either the Libertarians are correct that private property gives rise to freedom or MIM is correct that it is a detriment to freedom.

We say that it is self-evident that economic harmony precedes the elimination of government coercion. Until economic harmony comes about, private interests will seek to use governments to promote their interests. That&#39;s exactly why as Badnarik pointed out, the united &#036;tates is involved in 130 countries. It&#39;s on account of business relations. What the Libertarians miss is that armies do not deposit themselves in other territories for their own sake. There is an underlying economic reason. Even the fact that people are available for large international armies is a statement about what jobs are and are not available.

Libertarians are weak on the main sources of coercion in the world. Far more people lose their freedom from dying of starvation and simple illnesses that would be prevented by basic health care than by being dissident intellectuals put in prison some where. It also goes without saying that in primitive conditions, there are still the types of social conflicts that lead to state formation. If people are starving, the people with agricultural means of production and the starving are both going to seek a state. The hyper state activity stems from economic conditions.

The lack of effectiveness of Libertarian Party politics stems from an incorrect understanding of how the world works. The lack of understanding is the reason why Libertarians become so faint-of-heart. The original Libertarian Party candidate for president in 1972 has endorsed Bush.(2) In current conditions, MIM is more genuinely Libertarian than most Libertarians. We never waver or wonder whether we should have supported Kerry or Bush the way Libertarians typically do.

People who feel a god-given duty to vote could do worse than cast a protest vote for Libertarians. They do not have the underlying source of the problems nailed down, but they have taken correct stands on some of the main issues of the day. Verbally, Badnarik has taken a stance against imperialism, so a vote for Badnarik cannot be seen as a vote for imperialism, at least on the surface. There can only be a question of whether Libertarians really know how to achieve what they are talking about.

Notes:
1. http://badnarik.org/
2. http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41116

lvleph
9th November 2007, 15:49
Ron Paul is the leading Libertarian Candidate. He may be masked under the GOP flag, but he is not really GOP. He rand as a libertarian in 1988. Badnarik is a blip on the political radar. No one is even concerned with him. Seriously MIM is crazy.

Vanguard1917
9th November 2007, 16:05
True socialists are the most enthusiastic and consistent supporters of open borders and the free and unrestricted movement of people around the world.

While some bourgeois political tendencies may pretend that they support open borders, the bourgeoisie as a whole recognises that the free movement of the international working class is not in its interests. Hence immigration controls.

Dr Mindbender
9th November 2007, 23:52
national borders serve no purpose than the division of the proletariat and preserving illusions of patriotic grandeur therefore have no progressive role. Ultimately, they must be removed without exception.

freakazoid
10th November 2007, 01:14
The closest I have seen a Libertarian get to open borders is some saying that they wouldn&#39;t mind it so much if there weren&#39;t things like welfare, but usually they claim things like terrorists or diseases are there reasoning behind it. I got into a pretty big argument with some at another site about this. Normally I don&#39;t mind Libertarians so much except on this issue.

Raisa
10th November 2007, 09:49
The Capitalists support immigration because the motherfuckers like to try to confuse the issue when American people who are workers want to raise their living standards.

Of course capitalists love immigrants, they can manipulate them. DUH


Thats whats going on, American work is being in every way possible denied to american people because American capitalists want to colonize the third worlds work force reguardless if they do it over seas or bring them here like they did to the Africans in the 1600&#39;s.

Shit is CHess not Checkers, people.

Forward Union
10th November 2007, 11:21
They want open borders for cheap labour. Not cool.

Whitten
10th November 2007, 14:08
Originally posted by William [email protected] 10, 2007 11:21 am
They want open borders for cheap labour. Not cool.
Ofcourse they do. And workers want open boarders so they can sell them their labour. I think some people need to consider the welfare of the rest of the working class not just their relativly privilaged portion of it.

PRC-UTE
10th November 2007, 17:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 09, 2007 12:40 am
Hey even the nuts at MIM endorsed the libertarians
Enough said.

Though I did hear another poster here present a good case for the libertarians, along the lines of they will bring things crashing down faster and cause class conflicts to erupt more opnely. :lol:

PRC-UTE
10th November 2007, 17:02
Originally posted by William [email protected] 10, 2007 11:21 am
They want open borders for cheap labour. Not cool.
Keep going...

Vanguard1917
11th November 2007, 20:37
The Capitalists support immigration

No. Capitalists support restricted immigration - i.e. they support anti-immigrant laws.


Thats whats going on, American work is being in every way possible denied to american people because American capitalists want to colonize the third worlds work force reguardless if they do it over seas or bring them here like they did to the Africans in the 1600&#39;s.

No, it&#39;s not like that at all. You need to do some thinking.

We should get one thing very clear here. Immigration controls are a product of capitalism, specifically its imperialist phase, when anti-immigration laws started being established in the US and most European countries (like the 1905 Aliens Act in England).

Anti-immigration restrictions go hand in hand with the development of capitalism. Socialists need to fight these restrictions, and demand the absolutely free movement of the international working class.

Whitten
12th November 2007, 14:43
Thats whats going on, American work is being in every way possible denied to american people because American capitalists want to colonize the third worlds work force reguardless if they do it over seas or bring them here like they did to the Africans in the 1600&#39;s.

So your all forscrewing over everyone else in the world so long as the American workers can continue to live in luxury? When did you convert to nationalism?

In some of these arguements I really wonder how it is that i&#39;m the one who&#39;s restricted here...

Vanguard1917
12th November 2007, 15:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 02:43 pm

Thats whats going on, American work is being in every way possible denied to american people because American capitalists want to colonize the third worlds work force reguardless if they do it over seas or bring them here like they did to the Africans in the 1600&#39;s.

So your all forscrewing over everyone else in the world so long as the American workers can continue to live in luxury? When did you convert to nationalism?


You&#39;ve got a very good point. In leftist apologia for immigration controls, there is definitely this chauvinistic idea that native workers should have a privileged position in the labour market.

Such shoddy thinking is really unacceptable.

Faux Real
12th November 2007, 21:20
Why have borders in the first place.

If these imaginary lines do indeed exist then they should be open to anyone; laborers, tourists, families, moving, cities, anyone should be able to move freely wherever they would like to.

I don&#39;t care if they&#39;re "taking our jobs", the fact that they&#39;re willing to do them shows you how fucking ravaged their "country of origin" has been by capitalist globalization. Quite frankly, as has been said many times before, I don&#39;t see middle class Americana doing those civil servant tasks that the average Latin American immigrant is forced into so often and for so little. (talking about the city, I don&#39;t know what happens in rural areas)

Now to reverse that trend with communist globalization. ;)

Capitalist Lawyer
13th November 2007, 01:25
Why on earth do you all support "free and open borders"?

Don&#39;t you realize that these immigration policies (that communists and capitalists alike support) are screwing over the working class?

According to an economics textbook that I have, output is a function of both labor and capital. If capital remains constant, but the supply of labor increases, then the value of capital will increase relative to the value of labor. Immigration causes the supply of labor to increase, so obviously immigration is a factor in increasing the value of capital and decreasing the value of labor.

So we see, immigration benefits the capitalists because it increases the value of their capital, while at the same time it hurts Americans without capital who have to rely on their own labor to earn their income (i.e. the working class).

How can you all ignore a very definite government policy to lower the salaries of nurses and computer programmers via H1-B visas?

And forget about unskilled and skilled labor. Immigrants will easily outbid the natives that are competing for those jobs. If communists truly cared about income inequality or the working-class, you&#39;d be strongly opposed to immigration.

What&#39;s wrong with you people?

Dr Mindbender
13th November 2007, 01:31
...because we support the rights of the international working class. National boundaries are an arbitrary means set up by the establishment class to divide the proletariat on geographic, ethnic and religious lines in order to preserve suspicion hatred and fear etc of our fellow class members. Therefore we must organise in precisely the same way that the international beourgioise have done. Supporting the removal of national borders is fundamental to removing these arbitrary divisions.

Nothing Human Is Alien
13th November 2007, 01:33
"Through their actions, the imperialists have wrecked, and limited the development of large parts of the world, while centralizing wealth in their own countries. This has driven large numbers of working people to immigrate to the imperialist countries in search of a means of survival. The imperialists keep these immigrant workers in the position of second-class citizens, so that they can be paid less and used to foster divisions in the working class.

...

"Contrary to sell-out union tops that condemn immigrant workers for “bringing down wages” and “taking jobs” from native-born workers, communists fights for full equality for all immigrant workers -- by demanding full citizenship for all immigrants everywhere, to raise them up to the level of native-born workers -- so that the bosses cannot rely on them for cheap labor, to replace striking workers, etc.

Communists out that capitalism is international -- that capitalists take their businesses anywhere in the world they want to go, crossing all borders without any “passports” -- while working people are restricted to certain geographic areas marked by artificial borders. Communists constantly raise the question: “Why is capital free while workers remain enchained?”"

graffic
13th November 2007, 17:51
Of course capitalists love immigrants, they can manipulate them. DUH

Thats what Blair did here in the UK. As soon as he was in power he opened the gates wide open for immigrants, of course because of his claim to be a socialist he had a whole new wave of support for his party from the immigrants who obviously voted against the Torys. Which is a deception because the Labour party today is no different from Daves Conservative on its policys.

It depends on the country and situation with open borders. I think alot of things would have to progress economically and socially before anyone declares open borders, obviously having open borders in the Middle East right now would be disastrous.

pusher robot
13th November 2007, 18:33
If you are committed to both open borders and equalization of resources, then that necessarily means that it will not be in the material interests of roughly 100% of the population of first-world countries to adopt revolutionary principles.

Just something to consider.

Dr Mindbender
13th November 2007, 18:45
Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 13, 2007 06:33 pm
If you are committed to both open borders and equalization of resources, then that necessarily means that it will not be in the material interests of roughly 100% of the population of first-world countries to adopt revolutionary principles.

Just something to consider.
since half the world&#39;s wealth is controlled by as few as 300 individuals i highly doubt that.
Anyway a post revolutionary world will have no use for &#39;countries&#39;.

pusher robot
13th November 2007, 20:06
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13, 2007 06:45 pm
since half the world&#39;s wealth is controlled by as few as 300 individuals i highly doubt that.

Well, you&#39;d be wrong.

Total global GDP is roughly US&#036;50 trillion. Global population is 6.2 billion. Divide and you get slightly more than 8,000 US&#036;/person, far less than the U.S. number of US&#036;44,190 and far less than practically all first world countries. The closest current country with that level of GDP/capita is Mexico or maybe Libya.

Capitalist Lawyer
13th November 2007, 22:45
...because we support the rights of the international working class. National boundaries are an arbitrary means set up by the establishment class to divide the proletariat on geographic, ethnic and religious lines in order to preserve suspicion hatred and fear etc of our fellow class members. Therefore we must organise in precisely the same way that the international beourgioise have done. Supporting the removal of national borders is fundamental to removing these arbitrary divisions.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe the immigrants (legal or illegal) aren&#39;t on the same page as you? That they could careless about decreasing wages for everybody while increasing the value of capital?

It&#39;s speculated that immigration is the number one source that is driving inequality in wealthy nations.

I certainly don&#39;t see another source that can explain rising inequality in the USA.

MT5678
13th November 2007, 23:08
[QUOTE]Has it ever occured to you that maybe the immigrants (legal or illegal) aren&#39;t on the same page as you? That they could careless about decreasing wages for everybody while increasing the value of capital?

It&#39;s speculated that immigration is the number one source that is driving inequality in wealthy nations.

I certainly don&#39;t see another source that can explain rising inequality in the USA.
[QUOTE]

Try tax policy, declining real wages while corporate profits increase, corporate subsidies, etc.
There are too few immigrants to substantially lower wages. Besides, globalization has done that already.

Capital crosses whatever borders it wants to. Labor also has that right.

Interesting: when women entered the labor force in droves in the 60s and 70s, there was little wage reduction. Immigrants are far fewer in number and ratio than women.

Dros
13th November 2007, 23:46
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13, 2007 01:25 am
Why on earth do you all support "free and open borders"?
I refuse to recognize or legitimate national borders established by imperialism and built on slavery. Period.

Comrade Rage
14th November 2007, 00:07
I think one thing this thread is missing is a definition of &#39;open borders&#39;-which is widely used as a bumper sticker by rightist groups such as the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Minuteman Project, etc.

Given that, I&#39;ll say that I&#39;m in favor of borders, so long as they don&#39;t interfere with the right of the international proletariat to move freely. If some country&#39;s people feels some attachment to a border, fine keep it. If they want to stop the mobility of people in the area, then it&#39;s a big problem.

The reason I do believe to an extent in borders, is because in a post-revolution country, you do have to set up a border to stop an invasion (military, spies, terrorists) that will be staged or funded by the capitalist powers.

Once that situation dies down, there should be no need for any border in the conventional sense. It will be a line on a map and nothing more.

spartan
14th November 2007, 00:12
The reason I do believe to an extent in borders, is because in a post-revolution country, you do have to set up a border to stop an invasion (military, spies, terrorists) that will be staged or funded by the capitalist powers.
There is no such thing as a "post-revolution country" as if our revolution is successful there will be no more countries in existence post-revolution&#33;

Unless of course you are refering to the Socialism in one country theory?

Comrade Rage
14th November 2007, 00:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 07:12 pm

The reason I do believe to an extent in borders, is because in a post-revolution country, you do have to set up a border to stop an invasion (military, spies, terrorists) that will be staged or funded by the capitalist powers.
There is no such thing as a "post-revolution country" as if our revolution is successful there will be no more countries in existence post-revolution&#33;

Unless of course you are refering to the Socialism in one country theory?
What I&#39;m thinking is that after the revolution, a civil war may start (assuming that the revolution had not stemmed from a civil war) and we will battle the capitalists, at the same time there will probably be foreign interventionists sent in. (Probably from the EU, AND/OR State-Capitalist China.) It makes tactical sense to block their entry.

When the revolution is fully successful, the entire world will become Socialist.

Os Cangaceiros
20th November 2007, 22:20
All anarchists are for open borders, so I for one am against borders. I guess the LP is against borders because they see it as a restriction for commerce, or some such thing. They obviously never want to gain any respect in the US, as most of the populace are a bunch of flag humping Nativist nimrods who complain about the Mexicans who "took thier jjjeeeerrrrbbbbssss&#33;"

Robert
21st November 2007, 01:29
"took thier jjjeeeerrrrbbbbssss&#33;"


Strict commie rules here regarding serious discourse are too grim to permit me to say something like "Agora is a comedic genius." So I won&#39;t say it. But I would if I could. Oh god, I&#39;m screaming here&#33;

More&#33;

Os Cangaceiros
5th December 2007, 17:16
Originally posted by Robert the [email protected] 21, 2007 01:28 am

"took thier jjjeeeerrrrbbbbssss&#33;"


Strict commie rules here regarding serious discourse are too grim to permit me to say something like "Agora is a comedic genius." So I won&#39;t say it. But I would if I could. Oh god, I&#39;m screaming here&#33;

More&#33;
Thanks for your kind words, comrade. With your biting insight and my comedic genius, we shall overthrow the Commie hegemony&#33;