Is punk derived from nazism ?

[socialistpunk]

I was told over the media of the internet today that the music genre known to me as punk had derived from nazism i had argued of course that it wasn't and was responded with wikipedia evidence that it may of been but i took it as manufactured goverment propaganda please can someone tell me the truth about the origins of punk rock as i am rather angry that i have been subjected to bullshit and that i may of neirly belived it :(

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies)

[lvleph]

Nothing in wikipedia states that punk began as a nazi or fascist movement. However, there have been nazi punks and other right-wing fascist punk movements.

[socialistpunk]

thank you i now feel better i was just having this huge argument with this dude on bebo about punk rock and i was getting called a nazi by this guy who said punk derived from nazism and i tried to explain to him that punk was mainly left-wing with a sub-culture that was nazi not the whole thing

[Ander]

That is complete bullshit. Some idiotic Nazi fucks have tried to hijack punk and label it "Rock Against Communism," which is actually just white supremacist trash.

Its real roots lay in proto-punk bands from the 60's and early 70's like the Stooges, Television, New York Dolls, MC5, etc.

[socialistpunk]

damn right and this guy keeps saying it is derived from nazism ill give you a example of his bullshit "The political ideology most often associated with punk is anarchism, however punk has also been associated with other leftist ideologies such as social liberalism, socialism and communism. Despite the association that punk ideologies have with the left wing, some punks perceive the efforts of leftists as ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing. Punk derives from right-wing ideologies such as conservatism and neo-Nazism.

Here is some info for ya...........

Bizz nitch..........

WIKI........"

childish bullshit or what and he compleatly removed part of the passage about the ideologies too where does it say anything about it being derived from nazism in the wikipedia section

[Coffee Mug]

The entire original and evolved basic Punk Ethics are nearly the exact opposite of the ideas raised by the Nazis.

Right-Wing Punk is an effort to do to Left-Wing (most) Punk what Punk did to 70's Rock. Not quite such a good idea though. Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few. but the few there are get much more publicity in the Punk Community than Left-Wing bands at the same stature


Interview with Tim McIrath of Rise Against on http://punkmusic.about.com/


RC: What about the rise in conservatively political punk bands? Do you think that contradicts the origins of punk rock?

TM: Conservative punk bands are like the kid who walks into the wrong classroom on the first day of school. Dude, this isn't your class, you f***ed up, now go away.

I think it's giving them too much credit to call it a "rise". I've only seen a handful of bands who consider themselves conservative, and they are pretty insignificant bands usually just looking for a little press.

Not too deep, or supported by any facts; but it gets the point across.

[Cencus]

I laughed when I read this thread title. Having said that, there are valid reasons why someone might think there is a link.

Some of the early U.K. punk bands wore the swastika, eg the pistols and Siouxie, but this was done for shock value. Britian was in economic melt down, crime was rising, and old folks would berate you people when they misbehaved by saying "it wasn't like this during the war". So the use of thew swatika as an image was just a great big FUCK OFF to the establishment.

On top of that the main scource of clothes with swatikas was Malcom Maclaren & Viviene Westwoods shop. Maclaren is Jewish as well as being a ****. These clothes were made purely for shock value.


An old friend of mine has a DIY swastika tattoo on his kneecap. He did it for the shock value nothing to do with Nazism, didn't stop his dad kicking the shit outta him for it though. :D

On the other side of the pond, the Ramones had at least 1 member who was pretty far right, how far I'm not sure.

[lvleph]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:12 am
damn right and this guy keeps saying it is derived from nazism ill give you a example of his bullshit "The political ideology most often associated with punk is anarchism, however punk has also been associated with other leftist ideologies such as social liberalism, socialism and communism. Despite the association that punk ideologies have with the left wing, some punks perceive the efforts of leftists as ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing. Punk derives from right-wing ideologies such as conservatism and neo-Nazism.

Here is some info for ya...........

Bizz nitch..........

WIKI........"

childish bullshit or what and he compleatly removed part of the passage about the ideologies too where does it say anything about it being derived from nazism in the wikipedia section
I think you misunderstood what he was telling you. From what I read he is not disputing the roots of punk. He does say that there are right-wing punk movements and those punk movements gather their ideologies from conservatism and neo-nazism. Nothing in that statement you quoted indicated to me that he was claiming the roots of punk were drawn from nazis.

[Forward Union]

I thought punk was born out of being as much of an anti-social and badly dressed prick as possible?

The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols and Skrewdriver. And one was a front band for the National front. The other used Nazi symbols, to be dicks.

The "rock against communism" and "Punks not Red" stuff did get quite big in the 80s. But I wouldn't say punk comes from nazism, mainly because Nazism is a political ideology and Punk is a music genre. It probably has it's roots in local folk and a mixtrue of rock/metal genres.


Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few

You are joking? google; BloodandHonour or WhiteNoise.

[Cencus]

Originally posted by William [email protected] 07, 2007 12:28 pm



Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few

You are joking? google; BloodandHonour or WhiteNoise.
Nazi bands are a small percentage of the overall punk scene.

The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols & The Clash, Skrewdriver are pretty much unknown outside of political circles.

How the fuck anyone can say punk had anything to do with conservatism is beyond me. It was born for change, primarily change in music but change in just about everything else too

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by William [email protected] 07, 2007 07:28 am

The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols and Skrewdriver. And one was a front band for the National front. The other used Nazi symbols, to be dicks.

Though I can't speak for England, I can say with certainty that that is by no means the case here in the U.S. The two most popular punk bands here as far as knowing their names are the Sex Pistols, Clash, and, if you even consider them to be punk, the Ramones. I have friends that have listened to punk for a long time that haven't even heard of Screwdriver. Even before I listened to punk or got into politics, I had heard of left-wing bands like the Dead Kennedys, but I had never even heard of Screwdriver until I started coming to RevLeft.

Also, there's no way that a movement built on wearing the most extreme clothing, wearing your hair in the most extreme manners, and acting in the most unordinary and non-conservative way has its roots in Nazism.

[Killer Enigma]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 12:41 am
I was told over the media of the internet today that the music genre known to me as punk had derived from nazism i had argued of course that it wasn't and was responded with wikipedia evidence that it may of been but i took it as manufactured goverment propaganda please can someone tell me the truth about the origins of punk rock as i am rather angry that i have been subjected to bullshit and that i may of neirly belived it :(

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies)
Your first mistake was to use wikipedia as a source in a debate. Though punk did not have its roots in Nazism, I would imagine even the most vehement socialist would have castigated you for that.

[socialistpunk]

yeah but i was only using it to see if his point had any evidence behind it and it had some but nothing in it saying it was directly derived from nazism but it really didn't matter to this guy who just went on about being derived from nazism and only used partly manufactured evidence to support his claim but if the mods want to delete this thread its okay with me since i am useless at debating anyway

[Sickle of Justice]

Originally posted by Killer Enigma+November 07, 2007 10:04 pm--> (Killer Enigma @ November 07, 2007 10:04 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 12:41 am
I was told over the media of the internet today that the music genre known to me as punk had derived from nazism i had argued of course that it wasn't and was responded with wikipedia evidence that it may of been but i took it as manufactured goverment propaganda please can someone tell me the truth about the origins of punk rock as i am rather angry that i have been subjected to bullshit and that i may of neirly belived it :(

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies)
Your first mistake was to use wikipedia as a source in a debate. Though punk did not have its roots in Nazism, I would imagine even the most vehement socialist would have castigated you for that. [/b]
yeah. shoulda used Anarchopedia :D

[Sickle of Justice]

I thought punk was born out of being as much of an anti-social and badly dressed prick as possible?

yes. also situationism and working class empowerment.


The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols and Skrewdriver. And one was a front band for the National front. The other used Nazi symbols, to be dicks.


since when is screwdriver famous with the mainstream? i've only ever heard of them from punks (most of whom hate them)


i mean, nazi skinheadism got overhyped by the media, but wasn't really tied in with punk... usually when i think of mainstream punk bands i think of warped tour bands and soft left bands like Rise Against, Anti-Flag, NoFX etc.


QUOTE
Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few



You are joking? google; BloodandHonour or WhiteNoise.


you could... or you could google Aus Rotten, The Pist, Crass, Flux of Pink Indians, Oi Polloi, A//Political, Self Rule, Poison Girls, Subhumans, Crack Rock Steady, Human Investment, Behind Enemy Lines, Wolfbrigade, Resistant Culture, Iskra, Youth Brigade, Reagan Youth, Subsistance, The Brat Attack, Refusal Code, Against All Authority, the UK Subs, DOA, the Dead Kennedys, MDC, Intro5pect, Strike Anywhere,The Unseen, Anti-flag, Rise Against, i mean, FUCK! the list goes on and on. i can name maybe 3 right wing punk bands and maybe 600 left wing ones, not to mention several whole friggin MOVEMENTS with lefty connections, such as Anarchopunk, Two Tone, Crust Punk, Anarchoi, Creepcore etc.


and the left wingers are signifigantly better bands.

[celtopunk]

Originally posted by William [email protected] 07, 2007 12:27 pm
I thought punk was born out of being as much of an anti-social and badly dressed prick as possible?

The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols and Skrewdriver. And one was a front band for the National front. The other used Nazi symbols, to be dicks.

...

Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few

You are joking? google; BloodandHonour or WhiteNoise.
Are you an idiot in real life too or do you just play one on the internet??

You speak from a position of extreme ignorance.

[dirgenightingale]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 12:57 pm
yeah but i was only using it to see if his point had any evidence behind it and it had some but nothing in it saying it was directly derived from nazism but it really didn't matter to this guy who just went on about being derived from nazism and only used partly manufactured evidence to support his claim but if the mods want to delete this thread its okay with me since i am useless at debating anyway
nazis have always taken music and culture from other groups and have attempted to assimilate it. the best way for someone to convince someone to join them is to begin with music, activities, and such they have in common.

same idea with some mormons who were trying to convince me they were "cool" by talking about a band i happened to be wearing a sweatshirt depicting the day i walked past their corner.

[jaffe]

answer... no

[Synaptic-Plasticity]

why must you ask dopey questions?

[Palmares]

Originally posted by celtopunk+November 26, 2007 04:24 pm--> (celtopunk @ November 26, 2007 04:24 pm)
William [email protected] 07, 2007 12:27 pm
I thought punk was born out of being as much of an anti-social and badly dressed prick as possible?

The two most most famous punkbands (in the mainstream) are The Sex Pistols and Skrewdriver. And one was a front band for the National front. The other used Nazi symbols, to be dicks.

...

Nazis and bands supporting Nazism are few

You are joking? google; BloodandHonour or WhiteNoise.
Are you an idiot in real life too or do you just play one on the internet??

You speak from a position of extreme ignorance. [/b]
My thoughts exactly. Especially with the clearly distasteful tone entailing some sort of anti-subcultural grudge.

And Skrewdriver aren't even a 'punk' band.

[Colonello Buendia]

Most punk groups are leftist or left of centre, The Ramones had a republican member and the rest of them were democrats, Leftist punk groups are awesome and even groups like the Pistols or The Vibrators sang at least one song about how crap nazism was or anti fascist songs. even Greenday are slightly left wing and Ash have a song of leftist nature.


One right wing band is Rammstein, they sing right wing stuff, I always loathed metal.

If you guys want a really great left wing punk group listen to The Commandantes. I would also recommend Los Fastidios and Banda Bassoti.