Log in

View Full Version : Situationism



Faux Real
6th November 2007, 07:42
So I recently have learned about a type of praxis that I've admired for so long and don't see enough of today (at least in my city), Situationists. Their works are so beautiful. :wub:

Are they a minuscule sect of all the revolutionary trends?

Should leftists strive to follow and engage in this current?

This (http://aud1.kpfa.org/data/20071105-Mon1200.mp3) program skimmed the surface of such ideas for me, I suggest listening to the whole thing (especially if you've played video games such as Grand Theft Auto :P ).

The Feral Underclass
6th November 2007, 11:32
Ironically one has to be careful that Situationist praxis does not become co-opted into a kind of "popular" struggle and mainstream art forms. I think there needs to be a re-evaluation of situationist practice, but I think that the general critical cultural theories are still very relevant.

which doctor
6th November 2007, 13:01
Yeah, I was just going to say something about many so called "situationist" orgs are in fact anti-situationist. Situtation(ism) has been particularly recuperated into middle class anti-consumerist and anti-globalization movements.

More Fire for the People
6th November 2007, 21:38
Yes! The situationist represent a critical trend of the Marxist movement. Their use and analysis of culture is a milestone in the development of an all-encompassing, liberating society of the oppressed redeemed.

Ander
6th November 2007, 21:49
From what I understand, Situationists reject the use of the term "Situationism," claiming that it doesn't exist.

I've been meaning to read some Situationist works, but I have been busy with other material. Apparently the theories behind it are quite complex?

JazzRemington
6th November 2007, 22:03
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 06, 2007 06:32 am
Ironically one has to be careful that Situationist praxis does not become co-opted into a kind of "popular" struggle and mainstream art forms. I think there needs to be a re-evaluation of situationist practice, but I think that the general critical cultural theories are still very relevant.
I recall seeing advertisements that use once revolyutionary music to push some good or service. The best one I can think of was a Target ad a few years ago that featured Beautiful World by Devo. Of course the ad ends right before the words "it's not for me." There was also some cell phone ad that had Blitzkrieg Bop by The Ramones. It's sinister because these songs were once considered both subversive and revolutionary but now they're being used to sell crap.

black magick hustla
6th November 2007, 22:59
Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.

which doctor
7th November 2007, 04:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 02:42 am
So I recently have learned about a type of praxis that I've admired for so long and don't see enough of today (at least in my city), Situationists. Their works are so beautiful. :wub:

Are they a minuscule sect of all the revolutionary trends?

Should leftists strive to follow and engage in this current?

This (http://aud1.kpfa.org/data/20071105-Mon1200.mp3) program skimmed the surface of such ideas for me, I suggest listening to the whole thing (especially if you've played video games such as Grand Theft Auto :P ).
Another question for you.

How have you've been exposed to situation(ism)? The best way is to go straight to the original sources, many of which are located at bopsecrets.org, the best site IMO for situ texts.

Faux Real
7th November 2007, 05:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 09:36 pm
How have you've been exposed to situation(ism)?
Personal contacts, a few artists, and I've begun to read The Revolution is Everyday Life by Vaneigem. Also looking to read Duncombe's book Dream.

The best way is to go straight to the original sources, many of which are located at bopsecrets.org, the best site IMO for situ texts.
Thanks for that! I remember seeing the study group on The Society of the Spectacle, didn't quite check the thread or book out, so I guess I'll do that on my own.

Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.
I agree, further explained by Jazz:
I recall seeing advertisements that use once revolyutionary music to push some good or ... It's sinister because these songs were once considered both subversive and revolutionary but now they're being used to sell crap.
Do you know if there are any examples on youtube? It goes to show how even the bourgeoisie catch onto leftist ideas and claim them as their own. <_<

From what I understand, Situationists reject the use of the term "Situationism," claiming that it doesn&#39;t exist.
True, didn&#39;t quite know what would best describe it. Should&#39;ve titled the thread "Situationists".

Thank you TAT for your response and all who&#39;ve replied so far.

Devrim
7th November 2007, 07:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 10:59 pm
Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.
In fact Debord himself was a member of Socialisme ou Barbarie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialisme_ou_Barbarie), which is where he picked up most of his political analysis.
If you go beyond that, and a few interesting comments on culture, there isn&#39;t actually much to the SI at all.
Devrim

Bilan
7th November 2007, 07:23
Personal contacts, a few artists, and I&#39;ve begun to read The Revolution is Everyday Life by Vaneigem. Also looking to read Duncombe&#39;s book Dream.

How is that (The revolution of Everyday Life)? I&#39;ve been meaning to read it for a long time.
Are there copies on the net of these books?

My Heart is a Molotov
7th November 2007, 08:24
Originally posted by Proper Tea is [email protected] 07, 2007 06:23 pm
Are there copies on the net of these books?
The Revolution of Everyday Life (shit, I almost typed "the Evolution of Everyday Strife):

http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/en/pub_contents/5

or

http://libcom.org/library/the-revolution-o...-raoul-vaneigem (http://libcom.org/library/the-revolution-of-everyday-life-raoul-vaneigem)

black magick hustla
7th November 2007, 19:18
Originally posted by devrimankara+November 07, 2007 07:13 am--> (devrimankara @ November 07, 2007 07:13 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 10:59 pm
Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.
In fact Debord himself was a member of Socialisme ou Barbarie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialisme_ou_Barbarie), which is where he picked up most of his political analysis.
If you go beyond that, and a few interesting comments on culture, there isn&#39;t actually much to the SI at all.
Devrim [/b]
the SI was a gigantic failure in terms of praxis. Debord was member of SoB before joining the SI. Debord tried to gain absolute control over the SI and make out of it an "all encompassing political group"

I do think however, that situationist analysis of the superstructure is a great tool for revolutionaries. "Revolution of Everyday Life" by Vaneigem, is essentially the best "self-help" group I ever read, and it really gave me, beyond dry marxism, more motivation to pursue communist revolution.

It essentially made for me, communist politics, much more humane.

"Are you fucking with us--not for long&#33;" still echoes in my head.

rouchambeau
8th November 2007, 03:46
Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.
I think that&#39;s a pretty unfair assessment of the Situationists. Where did you get those ideas from?

black magick hustla
8th November 2007, 03:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 03:46 am

Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.
I think that&#39;s a pretty unfair assessment of the Situationists. Where did you get those ideas from?
I don&#39;t know what you mean?

The situationist international was a terrible organization that was ridden with splits and intellectual elitism. Its true that they did some agitation that lead to may 68, but their role is often exaggerated.

The SI did introduce many great ideas, but they where politically and organizationally bankrupt.

Bilan
8th November 2007, 04:33
Originally posted by My Heart is a Molotov+November 07, 2007 06:24 pm--> (My Heart is a Molotov @ November 07, 2007 06:24 pm)
Proper Tea is [email protected] 07, 2007 06:23 pm
Are there copies on the net of these books?
The Revolution of Everyday Life (shit, I almost typed "the Evolution of Everyday Strife):

http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/en/pub_contents/5

or

http://libcom.org/library/the-revolution-o...-raoul-vaneigem (http://libcom.org/library/the-revolution-of-everyday-life-raoul-vaneigem) [/b]
Thanks.
:) :wub:

Bilan
8th November 2007, 04:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 01:50 pm


The SI did introduce many great ideas, but they where politically and organizationally bankrupt.
Elaborate...please. :)

which doctor
8th November 2007, 04:39
True, didn&#39;t quite know what would best describe it. Should&#39;ve titled the thread "Situationists".

Thank you TAT for your response and all who&#39;ve replied so far.
It doesn&#39;t really matter what you call it. The SI preferred not to use the word situationism to distinguish themselves from typical ideologies such as communism and anarchism. The SI were a bunch of assholes and even they won&#39;t deny it.


the SI was a gigantic failure in terms of praxis. Debord was member of SoB before joining the SI. Debord tried to gain absolute control over the SI and make out of it an "all encompassing political group"
Yeah, I&#39;ve read stories from American and English radicals who just absolutely hated Debord. A madman and a genius at the same time.

black magick hustla
8th November 2007, 04:41
Originally posted by Proper Tea is Theft+November 08, 2007 04:36 am--> (Proper Tea is Theft @ November 08, 2007 04:36 am)
[email protected] 08, 2007 01:50 pm


The SI did introduce many great ideas, but they where politically and organizationally bankrupt.
Elaborate...please. :) [/b]
They were an organization of intellectuals, barely involved in class struggle politics. People would get expelled constantly and eventually Debord had a totalitarian, ideological grip on the group.

Devrim
8th November 2007, 06:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:18 pm
Debord was member of SoB before joining the SI.
Debord formed the SI in 1957, and it disbanded it 1972.
He was in SouB for a couple of years in the mid-sixties, maybe 63-65.
Devrim

VukBZ2005
8th November 2007, 15:05
Firstly, I am tired of people calling Situationist theory, "Situationism". As many people have said, the Situationist International never called their theory that in order prevent their association with ideologies that pretended to be revolutionary, that is, at the time in which they existed. Secondly, I will respond to some of the comments that have been posted.


Originally posted by Devrim+--> (Devrim) Debord formed the SI in 1957, and it disbanded it 1972.
He was in SouB for a couple of years in the mid-sixties, maybe 63-65[/b]

No, he was in Socialisme ou Barbarie between 1961 to 1962.



Originally posted by Marmot+--> (Marmot)Situationist praxis is meaningless without genuine, class struggle politics. I think the best thing, rather than creating an all encompassing "situationist group" is for situationists to join more developed, communist groups. Situationist groups would work alright while the members are in other communist groups I guess.[/b]

That is a pretty hard condemnation, Marmot. To say that it is meaningless, especially in this environment, is something that can be said to be going a bit too far. Granted that the words that they used were very complex and their attitude towards certain things were "unusual", to say the least, it is ridiculous to absolutely dismiss Situationist theory, or praxis, as you call it, out of hand. The reason why I say this is because its main theoretical premise, the Spectacle, does actually describe a very real phenomena in modern Capitalist societies, both in the stage of mass industrial production and of the stage of the "Social Factory", or the factory without walls. It is just that its main theoretical premise is cluttered with some irrelevant stuff that either went out of the window with the end of the revolutionary wave of the 1960&#39;s and 1970&#39;s or with the end of the Cold War.

Also, to say that there was no class struggle element in it, that is going a bit too far as well. It was not direct, but it does possess it, otherwise it would not have called for the development of generalized working class self-management, or in other words, workers&#39; councils.

What needs to be done is to remove whatever is irrelevant from it, take whatever is relevant from it and combine that with other relevant revolutionary currents that have the goal of the establishment of both Socialism and Communism through instruments of working class power. It is really, the only way to prevent its total recuperation into Capitalist society.



[email protected]
Its true that they did some agitation that lead to may 68, but their role is often exaggerated.

Yes, it is often exaggerated, but, I think the reason for that is because of the fact that there is some truth to that exaggeration. It must be remembered that one of the situations which caused the development of the student revolt that actually led to the events of May-June of 1968 in France was specifically the "Strasbourg Incident" of November 1966, the distribution of a text that the Situationist International authored, with some individuals from the local student union, that is, the Poverty of Student Life, and, the fact that the students that were working with the Situationist International to author that text used the funds of the student union used to publish it. Now, do I think that if the Situationist International did not get involved with such a situation, that the student revolt would have happen irregardless? It would have, because of the crisis that the school system in France was experiencing because of its overpopulation and its unwillingness to change substantially. But, the content would not have been that rebellious nor that psychologically developed.



Jello
I&#39;ve been meaning to read some Situationist works, but I have been busy with other material. Apparently the theories behind it are quite complex?

No. The only thing that is complex about Situationist theory is its language, not the ideas that are behind it.

Devrim
8th November 2007, 17:57
Originally posted by Communist FireFox+November 08, 2007 03:05 pm--> (Communist FireFox @ November 08, 2007 03:05 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected]
Its true that they did some agitation that lead to may 68, but their role is often exaggerated.

Yes, it is often exaggerated, but, I think the reason for that is because of the fact that there is some truth to that exaggeration. It must be remembered that one of the situations which caused the development of the student revolt that actually led to the events of May-June of 1968 in France was specifically the "Strasbourg Incident" of November 1966, [/b]
In situationist mythology maybe.


Communist FireFox
That is a pretty hard condemnation, Marmot. To say that it is meaningless, especially in this environment, is something that can be said to be going a bit too far. Granted that the words that they used were very complex and their attitude towards certain things were "unusual", to say the least, it is ridiculous to absolutely dismiss Situationist theory, or praxis, as you call it, out of hand. The reason why I say this is because its main theoretical premise, the Spectacle, does actually describe a very real phenomena in modern Capitalist societies, both in the stage of mass industrial production and of the stage of the "Social Factory", or the factory without walls. It is just that its main theoretical premise is cluttered with some irrelevant stuff that either went out of the window with the end of the revolutionary wave of the 1960&#39;s and 1970&#39;s or with the end of the Cold War.

Also, to say that there was no class struggle element in it, that is going a bit too far as well. It was not direct, but it does possess it, otherwise it would not have called for the development of generalized working class self-management, or in other words, workers&#39; councils.

What needs to be done is to remove whatever is irrelevant from it, take whatever is relevant from it and combine that with other relevant revolutionary currents that have the goal of the establishment of both Socialism and Communism through instruments of working class power. It is really, the only way to prevent its total recuperation into Capitalist society.

Hard, but fair in my opinion, the problem with Situationism is that it didn&#39;t actually have much to offer, an interesting view of alienation in the sphere of consumption, some second hand ideas taken from a confused ex-Trotskyist, and...well not much more.

Devrim

black magick hustla
8th November 2007, 18:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 05:57 pm

Hard, but fair in my opinion, the problem with Situationism is that it didn&#39;t actually have much to offer, an interesting view of alienation in the sphere of consumption, some second hand ideas taken from a confused ex-Trotskyist, and...well not much more.


I think Vaneigem had a lot to offer in terms of rationalizing our rage and dreams against a society based on generalized alienation. I understand why you would be so dismissive of the Situationists themselves, but its theoretical contributions are really valuable.

black magick hustla
8th November 2007, 18:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 05:57 pm

Hard, but fair in my opinion, the problem with Situationism is that it didn&#39;t actually have much to offer, an interesting view of alienation in the sphere of consumption, some second hand ideas taken from a confused ex-Trotskyist, and...well not much more.

Devrim
It wasn&#39;t just against "consumption". It was against work, against god, and against masters.

Devrim
8th November 2007, 19:13
Originally posted by Marmot+November 08, 2007 06:31 pm--> (Marmot @ November 08, 2007 06:31 pm)
[email protected] 08, 2007 05:57 pm

Hard, but fair in my opinion, the problem with Situationism is that it didn&#39;t actually have much to offer, an interesting view of alienation in the sphere of consumption, some second hand ideas taken from a confused ex-Trotskyist, and...well not much more.


I think Vaneigem had a lot to offer in terms of rationalizing our rage and dreams against a society based on generalized alienation. I understand why you would be so dismissive of the Situationists themselves, but its theoretical contributions are really valuable.

It wasn&#39;t just against "consumption". It was against work, against god, and against masters. [/b]
I was talking about what was new in it. There wasn&#39;t actually very much, more style than substance.
Devrim