marx and some of his thouths

[long_live_the_revolution]

well as a communist, and a Slav I was shoked when I recently read some of marx's thouths
Marx(especialy Engels) considered Slavs as primitive and anti-revolutionary people (which was true,at the time, but proved wrong later, even Engels confesed it, but only for Russia)
Marx didn't recoganised right to have a nation to chechs, south slavs...
Engels even considered that destroying a whole slav nations will be good, and germanising them
On internacionale they recoganised right on nations self determination, but still didn't quit thair opinion, but Lenin made it all clear later, stating that every nation has right to self determination, language etc.
I would like to hear your opinion on this question, becouse I find it very disturbing

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Troll, go back to stormfront.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:29 pm
well as a communist, and a Slav I was shoked when I recently read some of marx's thouths
Marx(especialy Engels) considered Slavs as primitive and anti-revolutionary people (which was true,at the time, but proved wrong later, even Engels confesed it, but only for Russia)
Marx didn't recoganised right to have a nation to chechs, south slavs...
Engels even considered that destroying a whole slav nations will be good, and germanising them
On internacionale they recoganised right on nations self determination, but still didn't quit thair opinion, but Lenin made it all clear later, stating that every nation has right to self determination, language etc.
I would like to hear your opinion on this question, becouse I find it very disturbing
Prove your claim, or stop trolling.

[long_live_the_revolution]

this is what engels said
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/02/15.htm

I found some Marxs words, but I don't find them so disturbing as this, and I don't feel like finding them right now on the net.

But in the meanwhile I was happy to find this Engels words,and I am pretty satisfied with it

Prior to that, Engels said, "The Slavs — once
again we remind our readers that here we always
exclude the Poles — were always the main
instruments of the counter-revolutionaries.
Oppressed at home, outside their country, wherever
Slav influence extended to, they were the
oppressors of all revolutionary nations." People
failing to understand dialectical materialism
might have thought Engels had something against
the Slavic peoples including Russians--but not at
all. "If at any epoch while they were oppressed the
Slavs had begun a ITAL new revolutionary history, END that
by itself would have proved their viability. From
that moment the revolution would have had an
interest in their liberation, and the special
interest of the Germans and Magyars would have
given way to the greater interest of the European
revolution." In other words, Engels was saying that
the nationalisms of the revolutionary should take precedence
over the nationalisms of the counter-revolutionary.

[long_live_the_revolution]

is there anyone who has to say anything about this(execpt ''you are troll'' and etc.)

[black magick hustla]

I skimmed really quickly through it.

It seemed more like an attack against Pan-slavism rather than the slavs themselves.

In his time, there were probably some "nationalisms" that were more progressive than others. Pan-slavism was full of outright reactionary nobles and landowners, while, american nationalism, for example, was more "progressive" and expoused ideas of "freedom and equality".

[long_live_the_revolution]

''And for this cowardly, base betrayal of the revolution we shall at some time take a bloody revenge against the Slavs.''

''...it is demanded that we should establish a counter-revolutionary Czech state in the very heart of Germany, and break the strength of the German, Polish and Magyar revolutions by interposing between them Russian outposts at the Elbe, the Carpathians and the Danube!
We have no intention of doing that.''

here he denies chech right to have a state

[long_live_the_revolution]

i also found it interesting that he hails so much Poles for being revolutionary, and later it was them who were most conta-revolutionary among all Slavs

[RedStarOverChina]

As we all know Marx's theory did not at all emphasize the "importance" of "race"---But many of his personal letters to Engels seem quite racist by today's standard and that's unaviodable---Everyone back then was a racist.

I don't recall Marx saying Slavs are "reactionary in nature" or stuff like that, but he really did have a very strong anti-Russian sentiment, in the sense that he opposed Czarism and believed the Czarist Empire to be a threat to the rest of Europe. He even found common ground with a extremely reactionary British pro-Turk adventurer over their common hatred against Russia.

It's kinda like how the modern Bourgeoisie relentlessly attack China from their comfy moral high ground. This is often completely unjustified and borders on racism, but that's what the media does to people, and Marx did not escape it's influence either.



i also found it interesting that he hails so much Poles for being revolutionary, and later it was them who were most conta-revolutionary among all Slavs

So your respond to Marx's racist views with...More racism? That doesn't sound right. Being revolutionary or counter-revolutionary has nothing to do with the person's race.

[long_live_the_revolution]

So your respond to Marx's racist views with...More racism? That doesn't sound right. Being revolutionary or counter-revolutionary has nothing to do with the person's race.

well, it might have sounded rasist, but i had no intentions of saying that
i like poles as any other nation

Engels realy did conect persons race and revolutionary, by saying that ''slavs are counter-revolutionary by nature''

I know what Lenin said about national question, but did he somewhere directly said that engels(marx) was wrong

[R_P_A_S]

im drunk. and i dont feel like reading through all this bullshit. but i can tell you this. Marx was and IS NOT GOD! so stop fucking living by some guys every word. take the good and turn it into a positive. also if this is true. the guy was progressive for his time. VERY progressive.. but he was not perfect. so fuck it.

i think by now revolution is very much a must. regardless of who said it first or last.


BURP!!!!! :blink:

[long_live_the_revolution]

heh lucky you, it 10:00 in my timezone, I wish I was you
but what are you doing in front of computer when drunk, go and have some fun :lol: , of corse marx and engels were not gods, and they were misteken in many things, but it doesn't mean that we musn't talk about thair mistakes

[Tower of Bebel]

During the German revolution the Slavs were trying to set up their own nation state. The conflict between Slavs and Germans was weakening the revolution.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:10 am
heh lucky you, it 10:00 in my timezone, I wish I was you
but what are you doing in front of computer when drunk, go and have some fun :lol: , of corse marx and engels were not gods, and they were misteken in many things, but it doesn't mean that we musn't talk about thair mistakes
its late.. and L.A. is not know for public transportation. and why would i go out and blow money at bars when i got it here at home?

[Killer Enigma]

So your respond to Marx's racist views with...More racism? That doesn't sound right. Being revolutionary or counter-revolutionary has nothing to do with the person's race.
How was his view racist? If indeed it was true, he merely stated that the Slavic working class was a reactionary group in terms of revolutionary potential.

I'm afraid your post is indicative of the left's attitude towards race: If you mention it, you are a racist.

[RedStarOverChina]

Originally posted by Killer [email protected] 19, 2007 09:13 am
How was his view racist? If indeed it was true, he merely stated that the Slavic working class was a reactionary group in terms of revolutionary potential.

I'm afraid your post is indicative of the left's attitude towards race: If you mention it, you are a racist.
Eh, he did say an entire ethnicity was counter-revolutionary. And it IS considered racism to judge an entire ethnicity.

Not only it sounded racist, if the claim is true, then Marxist notions such as "proletariat solidarity" will have to be reconidered. You can't have world-wide proletariat unity or cooperation when some ethnicities are just "counter-reactionary".

Believe it or not, as a Marxist, I think "racial theories" do not have any place in the Marxist paradigm.

[long_live_the_revolution]

Believe it or not, as a Marxist, I think "racial theories" do not have any place in the Marxist paradigm.

well, that is why I find it so interesting, Marx and Engels were insisting on workers slass solidarity and internationalism, and Engels have said these things

It sounds, hmmmm... strange