Log in

View Full Version : Opinions on the Mass Line



jacobin1949
3rd November 2007, 22:12
Anyone have any opinions on the Mass line? I used to be a strong supporter of Direct Democracy and direct rule of the people but drew closer towards Leninism as I saw Democratic centralism as the only way to combine direct and representative democracies. The Mass Line seems to be a way to combine Direct Democracy with Leninist dictatorship. Anyway I found a very interesting book online by an ex-RCP member who devoted his life to the idea of the mass line and spent 35 years working on his great work. It is a work of a lifetime to be read for a lifetime.

http://www.massline.info/mlms/mlms.htm

The Mass Line and the American Revolutionary Movement

Preface

This is an essay on the mass line method of revolutionary leadership, and its associated mass perspective. It is an attempt to give a careful, all-sided, book-length description and analysis of the theory of the mass line from the point of view of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. It is, as far as I know, the first such attempt and no doubt has its shortcomings. But because it is first, it may also have some strengths.

My motive in writing is expressed in these words of Lenin's: "It is a good Marxist custom to give a coherent and complete exposition of the principles underlying one's views and tactics."[1] It seemed to me that with respect to the mass line this had not yet been thoroughly done and therefore wanted doing. The point behind this fine Marxist custom is of course to enable practice to be more fully summed up in theory so that as theory it may in turn better serve to guide new revolutionary practice.

Specifically, it is my goal to defend Mao's theory of the mass line against distortions from both the right and the "left". From first hand experience I know that various incompatible interpretations of the mass line do exist among communists and within the revolutionary movement.

Who I Am

In late 1977 I was expelled from the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA because I championed the view of the mass line put forth in these pages (or at least an earlier, less elaborated version of it). The irony in this is that I was sure then, and am still sure, that I was in agreement with the interpretation of the mass line consistently defended by the leadership of the RCP in both public and internal documents (that I saw) up to that time. But the local Party organization didn't see it that way, was no doubt cognizant of the winds of change in the RCP, and booted me out. I submitted an appeal to the Central Committee but I never received a reply. This may have been due to the disruption caused by a faction of revisionists who split off from the RCP in early 1978.

I mention these autobiographical details because in this book I utilize some important comments by the RCP leadership (especially Bob Avakian, its Chairman) on the mass line, having a mass perspective, and related issues. I want it to be clearly understood however that I am speaking for myself and it is quite likely that the RCP will disapprove of the way I use their writings, some of which they have apparently since disowned.

It seems to me that I am still in agreement with the RCP's definition of the mass line itself. (See the frontis quotations, for example.) But on the broader issues of when, where and how to use the mass line, and on many other issues related to having a mass perspective, I am now clearly at odds with them—not so much because my views have changed, but because theirs have. Several of the chapters in this essay go into these differences at length.

I am genuinely sorry to have to criticize the RCP the way I do in this book, because I continue to respect the organization and its leadership. Ever since its founding in 1975 the RCP has been the most important revolutionary communist organization in the U.S. In the 1960s and 70s, the RCP and its main predecessor organization, the Revolutionary Union, played a critical role in the development of the revolutionary movement in this country. And even today, the RCP is still the most significant American revolutionary party.

But over the past 25 years or more, some very serious problems have developed in the RCP which have led to a gradual decline in its size, activities and influence. Unless these problems are finally faced up to and corrected I fear that the positive historical role that the Party once played may be over for good.

However they might be construed, my criticisms of the RCP and other communists—though sometimes a bit harsh—are sincerely meant to be comradely and constructive.

Who You Are

My intended audience is the RCP and other revolutionary-minded groups and individuals, people who want to bring about proletarian revolution in the U.S. and around the world, and who want to study and consider theories about how the people, or the "masses", may be mobilized and led in revolution.

Since I am writing for revolutionaries and serious revolutionary-minded people, I make many assumptions of the reader. I simply assume that revolution is desperately needed, and don't spend any space trying to prove that here. I assume that the reader has at least some familiarity with Marxism, the science of revolution, and at least some appreciation of its importance. For the most part I assume that the basic Marxist-Leninist-Maoist vocabulary and concepts are familiar to you. People with no desire for revolution, or no acquaintance with Marxism, may well find this book incomprehensible or valueless. All I can say is that this book was not written for such folks. Come back later if events change your perspective.

The Genesis of this Book

This essay is the outgrowth of an on-and-off study of the mass line which I have been engaged in for 35 years now. Almost from the day I first heard about Mao's "mass line" I felt that "here is something very important, something we've got to learn and use". But often when I tried to argue for mass line methods with my fellow revolutionaries in the 1970s I found either a lack of appreciation for the mass line, or very different interpretations of it.

This spurred me into more serious study. As part of this study I began to collect quotations from Mao and anybody else on the mass line. This collection has now grown to hundreds of quotes, and over 230 typed pages. I systematically read through everything by Mao which was available in English, searching for connections to the mass line. I've also done extensive investigations of Lenin on the topic, and to lesser extents Marx, Engels, Stalin, and other Marxists. I've read lots of books about Mao and China by friends and foes of the Chinese revolution, and skimmed many more for any mention of the mass line. And I've followed developments within the U.S. and world revolutionary movements with the mass line especially in mind.

So I think I can say that I've done a lot of investigation on the mass line. Do I claim to be a "master" of the mass line? Hardly! For one thing, a real master of the mass line would be someone, or a party, who actually uses the mass line in important and large scale leadership of the masses. Just studying it and writing about it will never make anybody a master. Moreover, even after all this time, I still continue to find new aspects to the theory of the mass line and its associated mass perspective, that never occurred to me before. My view of the mass line and its connections with broader issues of mass revolutionary politics is always developing to some degree. Nevertheless, my basic point of view on the mass line has remained pretty consistent over the past few decades. Consistently Maoist, it seems to me.

My original plan was to publish a small book of "Materials for the Study of the Mass Line", which would be in two main parts: my collection of mass line quotations, preceded by a small interpretive essay of my own, and possibly a few short articles on the mass line by Mao and the RCP. Several things went wrong with this plan. The collection of quotes got too big, and even separating it into 39 sections still left it too disorganized and intimidating to be conducive to systematic study. Bob Avakian and the RCP have apparently disowned their pamphlet on the mass line that I was thinking about including,[2] and would probably not agree to me including it anyway. And, most of all, my own essay got too big, started to expand into a number of peripheral questions related to having a mass perspective, etc.

So, in the end, I decided to just go with my extended essay, which now includes many of the best quotations I've found interspersed in a coherent and orderly sequence (I hope!). Even a lot of the RCP's pamphlet The Mass Line is in here, quoted piecemeal.

Why do we Marxist writers always use so many quotes? Well two reasons I guess. First, other Marxist writers have already expressed many points that need to be repeated, and when they have expressed these points eloquently, it seems the best thing to do is just to quote them. "I quote others only the better to express myself." (Montaigne) And second, to lend authority to what we say. It is a fact of life that what some individuals say carries more weight than what others say, in politics as anywhere else. To lend more weight to my words I think it only natural to show where great individuals like Mao and Lenin "agree with me". I am convinced that the theory of the mass line I present in this book is Mao's theory, and I would like you to see that too.

Organization of the Book

The essay is divided into 43 chapters, each focusing on a different aspect of the mass line, or coming at it from a different angle. Many of these chapters are semi-independent of the rest, and form semi-independent essays of their own. But because my goal was to write an all-sided book on the mass line which adequately explores its many conceptual interconnections, most topics are discussed in more than one place. It is in the nature of the thorough exploration of any complex terrain that this be so.

While it is possible to skip around in the book, the essay as a whole is most coherent if read in the order presented. It is especially important to read the first four chapters before jumping to any of the others. The reason for this is that I have tried to use the dialectical mode of presentation of the material. To suggest what I mean by this, I would like to quote a description by the writer Ilya Erenburg of the method used by Lenin:



His speeches were like a spiral; afraid that people wouldn't understand him he returned to a thought he had already expressed, never repeating it but adding something new. (Some of those who copied his manner of speaking used to forget that a spiral is like a circle and yet unlike. A spiral progresses.)[3]


I would add that the dialectical mode of presentation requires the use of relatively short and simple introductions or initial overviews, followed by spirals which elaborate on points in much greater detail. The first four chapters of this book comprise the initial overview. I only hope that most of the revisitations of ideas in later chapters truly take the form of developing spirals and not mere repetitive circles!

(Many aspects of dialectics, of course, including what I am calling "dialectical presentation", go back to ancient Greece. Although the concept of dialectical presentation no doubt existed before him, Plato was apparently the first to use the word 'dialectic' (dialektiké) to describe this method (for instance in his Socratic dialogs Phaedo and The Republic). As F. E. Peters puts it, in these dialogs Plato envisions the dialectic "as a progressively more synoptic ascent, via a series of 'positions'... until an ultimate is reached." [See his book Greek Philosophical Terms: A Historical Lexicon (NY: New York University Press, 1967), p. 36.] We Marxists, however, recognize that a dialectical presentation may not always result in an "ultimate explanation", but more often just in an ever more sophisticated explanation (one that is progressively closer to the complete truth). And indeed we recognize that in some spheres at least (e.g., particle physics) there may not even be such a thing as an "ultimate explanation". Elsewhere Plato (and other ancient Greek writers) often used the word 'dialectic' in different senses, usually idealistic, metaphysical senses we would reject.)

(There are other things besides using spirals which can also be properly considered to enter into a fully dialectical presentation. For example, a historical approach to the material, which shows the dialectical development of ideas in their social context. I don't dispute the importance of this (and of yet other aspects of dialectical presentation), but it should be noticed that to some degree there are conflicts between using the spiral approach and using these other dialectical methods, such as a historical approach. In my view, spirals of presentation are the main thing, and the other features of dialectical presentation are secondary.)

The Length of this Book

"Writers, like teeth, are divided into incisors and grinders."[4] The length of this book, together with its attempt to be comprehensive and all-sided, clearly places me into the camp of "grinders". I wish it could be otherwise. I admire the "incisors", those who with deft slashes can quickly make their point. I myself learned the mass line primarily from an author who fits that mold—Mao Zedong. But it seems to me that not many others have done so. They seem instead to have missed the whole idea. My own previous attempts to convey the central ideas of the mass line in a concise fashion have proved quite unsuccessful. The only thing left to do has been to start grinding away.

A Self-Criticism

I have a major self-criticism to make regarding the lack of timeliness of this book. Suggestions, critiques and criticisms of all kinds should not only be careful, thoughtful, and complete—they should also be timely. To some degree there is always a contradiction between these goals; the longer you work on making a criticism as complete and correct as possible, the more time goes by, and the less timely the criticism is when you finally submit it. Deciding on the most appropriate compromise here is usually difficult. But it is clear that I have grossly erred by spending way too much time in writing this book. It is now at least a couple decades late.

Ideally, a book like this on the mass line should have made its appearance in the early 1970s, when the reborn American revolutionary movement was first learning about something called the "mass line" and floundering in its attempts to relate it to the basic questions of revolutionary strategy and technique. But with our lack of both theory and experience at the time, nobody was in a position to write such a book—certainly not me.

But by the late 1970s I had completed the basic research for this book, including the study of Mao's writings and the investigation of the relevant aspects of the Chinese Revolution. Since then it has been mostly a matter of getting down all the ideas and quotes on paper in a coherent fashion. Of course that's a big task, but it shouldn't have taken all these years, even given the necessity of holding down a job and some problems with illness.

If the book is so late, can there possibly be any value to it anymore? Well nobody else, as far as I know, wrote a book on the mass line in the meanwhile.[5] The mass line is just as important and indispensable as it ever was. I would like to think that if the book had come out earlier, it might have helped make our revolutionary practice more effective. But there is still the enormous amount of revolutionary activity that lies before us—which looms even more difficult in this age when Soviet revisionism has finally collapsed and temporarily tarnished the whole idea of revolution in the eyes of many. Sooner or later, we have got to get clear on the important topic of the mass line. It is always a shame if any kind of revolutionary work is not done in a timely fashion, but that is never an excuse for not finally getting it done.

I Want Your Criticisms

If you read this book I am sure that with your fresh eyes things will occur to you about the mass line that have not occurred to me. You will probably see flaws in my stand on this or that point, maybe on major points. I will sincerely appreciate any criticisms, big or small, that anyone may care to send me. (My email address is at the bottom of this page.)

Although I have written this book to champion a particular interpretation of the mass line, I feel sure that my efforts will have been of some value even for those who end up disagreeing with me on many points. At least I will have led my readers to consider the theory of the mass line in depth.

I generally use the new Pinyin romanizations for Chinese names. A chart comparing the new and old spellings of the names of some of the major individuals referred to is included as an appendix.


Notes
[1] Lenin, "'Left-Wing' Childishness and the Petty-Bourgeois Mentality" (May 9-11, 1918), LCW 27:325. (See the bibliography for an explanation of this reference code.)

[2] At least this is what a long-time RCP'er told me a number of years ago. The pamphlet in question, entitled The Mass Line [see bibliography], has long been unavailable from the RCP, but I have scanned in a copy and posted it at: http://members.aol.com/ScottH9999/studyaid/ml_RCP.htm

[3] Ilya Erenburg, People and Life: Memoirs of 1891-1917 (London: MacGibbon and Kee, 1961), p. 69.

[4] Walter Bagehot, quoted in Rudolf Flesch, ed., The New Book of Unusual Quotations (NY: Harper & Row, 1966), p. 427.

[5] Making use of the Internet, I have searched through the Library of Congress catalog for works on the mass line and found only one pamphlet mention: Health Care in China by the Anglo-Chinese Educational Institute [see bibliography]. The only publications listed with "mass line" in the title are these periodicals:
Mass Line (Ottawa: Canadian Communist Movement (M-L), 1969)
American Mass Line (Cleveland, Ohio: American Communist Workers Movement (M-L), 1970-71)
The Mass Line (Cochin, Kerala, India: 1974-?)
Mass Line: A Marxist Cadres Journal (Kano, Nigeria: c. 1984-?)
The first two of these are long since defunct (both periodicals and organizations, I believe). Despite their titles, the few issues of these first two that I saw contained nothing specific to the mass line. The Kerala journal was much more significant, but the few issues which I have seen also contain nothing about the mass line per se. There was another publication in India called Mass Line which was published by the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Central Reorganization Committee until that organization was disbanded in the fall of 1991. This may, or may not, have been a continuation of the journal founded in 1974. I have not seen the Nigerian journal.



Email: [email protected]

Go to Chapter 1

Return to The Mass Line contents page.

Marsella
3rd November 2007, 22:54
The Mass Line seems to be a way to combine Direct Democracy with Leninist dictatorship.

Yeah, just like fire and water go together. <_<

I&#39;ll give a more detailed analysis tomorrow but it doesn&#39;t seem anything particularly new or reasonable.

Marsella
4th November 2007, 08:52
To get to the point of the &#39;mass line&#39;. Source (http://www.massline.info/mlms/mlch03.htm)


The mass line, as we saw in the last chapter, is a method of leadership. It is in particular a method of leading the masses. This already implies a number of things. First, it implies that the masses need leadership for some purpose or other. This purpose is of course to wage the class struggle and carry out the social revolution. The mass line can only be understood as the basic method of leading the masses in carrying out their historical task of advancing from capitalism (and semi-feudal society in some parts of the world), through socialism, to communist society. Second, the mass line as a method of leading the masses implies a distinction between the masses and those who lead the masses, a dichotomy between the leadership and the led. Third, it implies that there are methods by which the masses can be led, and that these methods can be studied and learned.

A method of leadership is necessary because leadership itself is necessary. The masses are indeed the makers of history. But if the masses were to spontaneously develop a scientific understanding of society and their role in changing it, and spontaneously organize themselves to carry out their historic task, capitalism would immediately and automatically collapse. Such idealistic spontaneity does not, of course, exist. While the basis does exist for the proletariat (because of its class position, the exploitation and oppression it suffers) to become conscious of itself and its historical role, and to organize itself and the broad masses to overthrow capitalism, these things can only happen if the (correct) leadership is developed and if the scientific theory of society and revolution—Marxism-Leninism-Maoism—is brought to the masses by that leadership. The masses must therefore bring forth leaders, a section of the masses must constitute itself into a vanguard which leads the whole body forward. The mass line therefore requires the existence of a center of revolutionary leadership, namely the party of the proletariat.

---------


It is in particular a method of leading the masses. This already implies a number of things. First, it implies that the masses need leadership for some purpose or other.

Great, so the fact that the theory of the mass line exists means that the masses need leadership. Great logic.


Second, the mass line as a method of leading the masses implies a distinction between the masses and those who lead the masses, a dichotomy between the leadership and the led.

It certainly does&#33; Just like the dichotomy between slave and master, or worker and capital, or in this case, leader and follower.


A method of leadership is necessary because leadership itself is necessary.

Why is leadership necessary?

Because workers are too stupid to decide for themselves?


But if the masses were to spontaneously develop a scientific understanding of society and their role in changing it, and spontaneously organize themselves to carry out their historic task, capitalism would immediately and automatically collapse.

Fuck no&#33;

1. Workers won&#39;t &#39;spontaneously&#39; understand the role of the capitalists in exploiting them. It is a result of material conditions, the result of class struggle. The very best that Communists can do is help spread that understanding.

2. Workers have organised themselves &#39;spontaneously.&#39; But what you mean by spontaneously is really without someone telling them what to do. Unions are a good example (well at least some). The Paris Commune too. February 1917 also.

3. Capitalism will not simply collapse when all &#39;spontaneously&#39; organise themselves or reach &#39;enlightenment.&#39; Nor will wages disappear without belief in them. Capitalism needs to be overthrown.

The author does raise some interesting and valid points but it is largely the same shit, same smell.

KC
4th November 2007, 15:21
Martov, if you&#39;re going to make the same claims in this thread that you did in the other one then go back to that one and actually respond to my post.

Labor Shall Rule
4th November 2007, 17:08
Believe it or not Martov, not all workers are theoreticians and geniuses. Most are more or less devoted to creating surplus value for others, than actually taking on the challenging administrative and theoretical demands of leadership. They will select a core from their own ranks to fill in this gap.

There is no historical evidence to suggest that leadership leads to the reinstallment of capitalist relations in production.

In Spain, the anarchists lead the workers, in Hungary, dissent sections of the Communist Party lead the workers, and I could go on and on. If a revolution fails, it is precisely because their leadership either derailed the effort or displayed cowardice in the face of the enemy, but most often, it was because it was without leadership in the first place.

Your example is also ridiculous, considering that the Commune Council was composed of mostly &#39;red&#39; Republicans, who represented the radical tier of the local bourgeois. The Blanquists and Proudhonists held a minority, with little to none representation from the First International. Though the worker&#39;s districts were democratized, and significant social measures were created, the leadership failed to react appropriately. They "lost precious moments," as Marx remarked, and did not seize the banks, or march on Versailles.

The Febuary Revolution was also the result of years of agitation from liberal and socialist groups against Tsarism. It didn&#39;t &#39;randomly&#39; pop into their heads that the monarchy had to be overthrown.

Marsella
5th November 2007, 12:40
Believe it or not Martov, not all workers are theoreticians and geniuses.

Do they need to be?

We have had over 200 years of theory.

We all know what is wanted.

Another State and Revolution isn&#39;t particularly going to do much.

My point being that we don&#39;t need another &#39;theoretical Marx.&#39;


Most are more or less devoted to creating surplus value for others, than actually taking on the challenging administrative and theoretical demands of leadership.

Which raises some interesting points. Firstly, if workers are &#39;devoted to creating surplus value for others&#39; then perhaps capitalism will prevent workers from ever being class conscious.

Or it may well be that the conditions are not right, which I think is a far more likely (and desirable&#33;) reason.

But that hasn&#39;t prevented others from claiming the conditions were right for a worker&#39;s revolution.

What I really have a problem with the idea of class consciousness, which I accept as true, is that it seems justify saying &#39;they don&#39;t know they are being exploited, we do know, therefore we have the right to start the revolution ourselves.&#39;

Whilst I&#39;m not claiming that you hold such an opinion it seems to be something I encounter a lot: &#39;for the greater good&#39;

Secondly, the main ground of a revolution will be in the work place. I can only go on what occurs in my workplace. It seems very ludicrous that myself or other workers would need some Leninist, or anyone for that matter, telling us how to overthrow the old conditions, or how to continue the administration of the workplace.


There is no historical evidence to suggest that leadership leads to the reinstallment of capitalist relations in production.

Leadership is a murky term however.

Leadership in my sense of the word is the role of Communists in educating workers, agitating and general activism.

Leadership in most Leninist terms mean being at the forefront of the struggle, taking over the state, taking over the army, police.

Also, leadership creates servility. It creates the idea that one can rely on ones leaders to &#39;impose socialism from above.&#39;

That is extremely antagonistic to the very notion of a worker&#39;s revolution.

And as for leadership leading to capitalism, I never said so. The fate of the USSR was the result of material conditions which no party could attempt to jump. So in that example, no amount of leadership was ever going to lead to something worth-while.

It just seems highly unusual, to say the least, why such ideas of &#39;revolution&#39; from above are still accepted today.

Most importantly, &#39;being determines consciousness.&#39; You don&#39;t think that the leaders of the &#39;workers state&#39; are condescending in the slightest towards the workers below them?

You think that they can act in the best interests of the working class when they are sipping champagne?

Material conditions create consciousness. And if those materials conditions are capitalist then the ones on top are only ever going to further those aims:


"The “injustice in property relations” which is determined by the modern division of labor, the modern form of exchange, competition, concentration, etc., by no means arises from the political rule of the bourgeois class, but vice versa, the political rule of the bourgeois class arises from these modern relations of production which bourgeois economists proclaim to be necessary and eternal laws. If therefore the proletariat overthrows the political rule of the bourgeoisie, its victory will only be temporary, only an element in the service of the bourgeois revolution itself, as in the year 1794, as long as in the course of history, in its “movement”, the material conditions have not yet been created which make necessary the abolition of the bourgeois mode of production and therefore also the definitive overthrow of the political rule of the bourgeoisie…Men build a new world for themselves...from the historical achievements of their declining world. In the course of their development they first have to produce the material conditions of a new society itself, and no exertion of mind or will can free them from this fate."

Moralizing Criticism and Critical Morality 1847, Collected Works, Volume 6

If we could achieve Communism by leaders then we would have done so long ago via parliament. And I think we both agree that that option is totally futile.


In Spain, the anarchists lead the workers, in Hungary, dissent sections of the Communist Party lead the workers, and I could go on and on.

Being unfamiliar with Spanish or Hungarian history I can&#39;t really comment.

But clearly such movements have amounted to...well... nothing.

And more to the point, there is a difference between anarchists or communists participating in the revolution, and anarchists or communists &#39;doing&#39; the revolution, thinking that they themselves can replace the class struggle.


If a revolution fails, it is precisely because their leadership either derailed the effort or displayed cowardice in the face of the enemy, but most often, it was because it was without leadership in the first place.

How could a revolution of millions, particularly a worker&#39;s revolution, derail because of a collapse in the confidence of a dozen men?

And I would appreciate a historical example where a attempted revolution failed for want of leadership, just for learning.

A contrast could be drawn to Columbia: the FARC is as hierarchical as any Marxist-Leninist party can be. But the complete lack of any revolutionary situation just makes their victory very unlikely, and if so it would amount to, at best, social-democracy. Mass support, as I am sure you will agree, is always needed. In fact it is the only means possible.


Your example is also ridiculous, considering that the Commune Council was composed of mostly &#39;red&#39; Republicans, who represented the radical tier of the local bourgeois.

Firstly, it scarcely matters which party they proclaim to but for being representatives of the working class. I will quote some parts of The Civil War in France, which I feel best describe the dictatorship of the proletariat, or the role of the workers:


Of late, the social democratic philistine has once more been filled with wholesome terror at the words: dictatorship of the proletariat. Well and good, gentlemen, do you want to know what this dictatorship looks like? Look at the Paris Commune. That was the dictatorship of the proletariat.
(Engels)

The Commune did not do away with representative government, that is, with the election of those empowered to make and enforce laws. However, under bourgeois democracy representative government means ‘deciding once in three or six years which member of the ruling class was to misrepresent the people in parliament.’

Under the Commune, however, all public officials were not only elected, but were subject to immediate recall by those who had chosen them. In this way:


…universal suffrage was to serve the people…as individual suffrage serves every other employer in the search for the workmen and managers in his business. And it is well known that companies, like individuals, in matters of real business generally know how to put the right man in the right place, and, if they for once make a mistake, to redress it promptly.
(Marx)


... If you look at the last chapter of my Eighteenth Brumaire you will find that I say that the next attempt of the French revolution will be no longer, as before, to transfer the bureaucratic-military machine from one hand to another, but to smash it, and this is essential for every real people&#39;s revolution on the Continent
(Marx)

The other measures of the Paris Commune, Engels describes in the introduction:


On March 26 the Paris Commune was elected and on March 28 it was proclaimed. The Central Committee of the National Guard, which up to then had carried on the government, handed in its resignation to the National Guard, after it had first decreed the abolition of the scandalous Paris "Morality Police." On March 30 the Commune abolished conscription and the standing army, and declared that the National Guard, in which all citizens capable of bearing arms were to be enrolled, was to be the sole armed force. It remitted all payments of rent for dwelling houses from October 1870 until April, the amounts already paid to be reckoned to a future rental period, and stopped all sales of article pledged in the municipal pawnshops. On the same day the foreigners elected to the Commune were confirmed in office, because "the flag of the Commune is the flag of the World Republic."

On April 1 it was decided that the highest salary received by any employee of the Commune, and therefore also by its members themselves, might not exceed 6,000 francs. On the following day the Commune decreed the separation of the Church from the State, and the abolition of all state payments for religious purposes as well as the transformation of all Church property into national property; as a result of which, on April 8, a decree excluding from the schools all religious symbols, pictures, dogmas, prayers – in a word, "all that belongs to the sphere of the individual&#39;s conscience" – was ordered to be excluded from the schools, and this decree was gradually applied. On the 5th, day after day, in reply to the shooting of the Commune&#39;s fighters captured by the Versailles troops, a decree was issued for imprisonment of hostages, but it was never carried into effect. On the 6th, the guillotine was brought out by the 137th battalion of the National guard, and publicly burnt, amid great popular rejoicing.

On the 12th, the Commune decided that the Victory Column on the Place Vendôme, which had been cast from guns captured by Napoleon after the war of 1809, should be demolished as a symbol of chauvinism and incitement to national hatred. This decree was carried out on May 16. On April 16 the Commune ordered a statistical tabulation of factories which had been closed down by the manufacturers, and the working out of plans for the carrying on of these factories by workers formerly employed in them, who were to be organized in co-operative societies, and also plans for the organization of these co-operatives in one great union. On the 20th the Commune abolished night work for bakers, and also the workers&#39; registration cards, which since the Second Empire had been run as a monopoly by police nominees – exploiters of the first rank; the issuing of these registration cards was transferred to the mayors of the 20 arrondissements of Paris. On April 30, the Commune ordered the closing of the pawnshops, on the ground that they were a private exploitation of labor, and were in contradiction with the right of the workers to their instruments of labor and to credit. On May 5 it ordered the demolition of the Chapel of Atonement, which had been built in expiation of the execution of Louis XVI.

Thus, from March 18 onwards the class character of the Paris movement, which had previously been pushed into the background by the fight against the foreign invaders, emerged sharply and clearly. As almost without exception, workers, or recognized representatives of the workers, sat in the Commune, its decision bore a decidedly proletarian character. Either they decreed reforms which the republican bourgeoisie had failed to pass solely out of cowardice, but which provided a necessary basis for the free activity of the working class – such as the realization of the principle that in relation to the state, religion is a purely private matter – or they promulgated decrees which were in the direct interests of the working class and to some extent cut deeply into the old order of society. In a beleaguered city, however, it was possible at most to make a start in the realization of all these measures.

Now, as you have stated, Marx did attack the Paris Commune for their delays. However, Marx never criticized the character or the nature of the Paris Commune, as far as I am aware. He did rightly say this:


&#39;The appropriation of the Bank of France alone would have been enough to put an end with terror to the vaunt of the Versailles people, etc...&#39;
(An Afterthought on the Paris Commune, Marx to F.Domela-Nieuwenhuis, 1881)

Now compare this hyper-democratic, indeed a participatory democracy, to that of the Bolshevik system which has been repeated far too many times.


The Blanquists and Proudhonists held a minority, with little to none representation from the First International.

I am not sure of the validity of this. But then again I have only just started learning about the Paris Commune. Perhaps you could source it?

I vaguely remember reading, in the Civil War In France, that the Blanquists and Proudhonists held a majority. Blanqui after all was elected head of the CC in absentia.


Though the worker&#39;s districts were democratized, and significant social measures were created, the leadership failed to react appropriately. They "lost precious moments," as Marx remarked, and did not seize the banks, or march on Versailles.

Yeah, I think that anyone would agree that they made some mistakes.


The Febuary Revolution was also the result of years of agitation from liberal and socialist groups against Tsarism. It didn&#39;t &#39;randomly&#39; pop into their heads that the monarchy had to be overthrown.

:lol:

I don&#39;t think I said that it &#39;randomly&#39; popped into their heads&#33;

It was a result of class struggle, of the bourgeoisie liberal ideas against the old autocracy.

And it succeeded only by mass discontent over the material conditions, of the failings of the Tsarist order, not of any leading party.

KC
5th November 2007, 13:32
Which raises some interesting points. Firstly, if workers are &#39;devoted to creating surplus value for others&#39; then perhaps capitalism will prevent workers from ever being class conscious.

Straw man. You know very well that that&#39;s not what he meant.


What I really have a problem with the idea of class consciousness, which I accept as true, is that it seems justify saying &#39;they don&#39;t know they are being exploited, we do know, therefore we have the right to start the revolution ourselves.&#39;

When did this happen? I would expect perhaps a few countries for you to list, but certainly not the Bolsheviks.


Leadership in my sense of the word is the role of Communists in educating workers, agitating and general activism.

Then why do you rail against it so much?


Leadership in most Leninist terms mean being at the forefront of the struggle, taking over the state, taking over the army, police.

No it doesn&#39;t.

"In the first place, at the very outset of his argument, Engels says that, in seizing state power, the proletariat thereby “abolishes the state as state". It is not done to ponder over over the meaning of this. Generally, it is either ignored altogether, or is considered to be something in the nature of “Hegelian weakness” on Engels&#39; part. As a matter of fact, however, these words briefly express the experience of one of the greatest proletarian revolutions, the Paris Commune of 1871, of which we shall speak in greater detail in its proper place. As a matter of fact, Engels speaks here of the proletariat revolution “abolishing” the bourgeois state, while the words about the state withering away refer to the remnants of the proletarian state after the socialist revolution. According to Engels, the bourgeois state does not “wither away", but is “abolished” by the proletariat in the course of the revolution. What withers away after this revolution is the proletarian state or semi-state.

Secondly, the state is a “special coercive force". Engels gives this splendid and extremely profound definition here with the utmost lucidity. And from it follows that the “special coercive force” for the suppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie, of millions of working people by handfuls of the rich, must be replaced by a “special coercive force” for the suppression of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat (the dictatorship of the proletariat). This is precisely what is meant by “abolition of the state as state". This is precisely the “act” of taking possession of the means of production in the name of society. And it is self-evident that such a replacement of one (bourgeois) “special force” by another (proletarian) “special force” cannot possibly take place in the form of “withering away".

Thirdly, in speaking of the state “withering away", and the even more graphic and colorful “dying down of itself", Engels refers quite clearly and definitely to the period after “the state has taken possession of the means of production in the name of the whole of society", that is, after the socialist revolution. We all know that the political form of the “state” at that time is the most complete democracy. But it never enters the head of any of the opportunists, who shamelessly distort Marxism, that Engels is consequently speaking here of democracy “dying down of itself", or “withering away". This seems very strange at first sight. But is is “incomprehensible” only to those who have not thought about democracy also being a state and, consequently, also disappearing when the state disappears. Revolution alone can “abolish” the bourgeois state. The state in general, i.e., the most complete democracy, can only “wither away".

Fourthly, after formulating his famous proposition that “the state withers away", Engels at once explains specifically that this proposition is directed against both the opportunists and the anarchists. In doing this, Engels puts in the forefront that conclusion, drawn from the proposition that “the state withers away", which is directed against the opportunists."
-Lenin, State & Revolution

“the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes. ... The first decree of the Commune, therefore, was the suppression of the standing army, and the substitution for it of the armed people.”
-Marx, The Civil War In France


Also, leadership creates servility. It creates the idea that one can rely on ones leaders to &#39;impose socialism from above.&#39;

I thought leadership meant "educating workers, agitating and general activism." How does this create servility? You have constructed a false dichotomy.


Most importantly, &#39;being determines consciousness.&#39;

NO.

Social being determines consciousness.


You don&#39;t think that the leaders of the &#39;workers state&#39; are condescending in the slightest towards the workers below them?

Shall I refer you back to your definition of "leadership" once again?


If we could achieve Communism by leaders then we would have done so long ago via parliament. And I think we both agree that that option is totally futile.

Straw man. Your post is full of these.


Being unfamiliar with Spanish or Hungarian history I can&#39;t really comment.

But clearly such movements have amounted to...well... nothing.

And more to the point, there is a difference between anarchists or communists participating in the revolution, and anarchists or communists &#39;doing&#39; the revolution, thinking that they themselves can replace the class struggle.

Which is something you refuse to understand. Nobody here advocates anyone "doing revolution" in the place of the proletariat, as has been shown to you repeatedly.

And as for who you&#39;re really railing against, you&#39;re simply wrong, because the Bolshevik party was a mass party that had the support of the majority of the Russian working class. And as for your assertion that material conditions weren&#39;t developed enough, that&#39;s easy enough to debunk by the very fact that the working class revolted. I said this in my response to you in the other thread, yet you never fully replied, and now you go repeating the same untruths here. If you want to debate then respond to my points or just don&#39;t post.


How could a revolution of millions, particularly a worker&#39;s revolution, derail because of a collapse in the confidence of a dozen men?

Leadership isn&#39;t a dozen men.


And I would appreciate a historical example where a attempted revolution failed for want of leadership, just for learning.

Just about every workers action that didn&#39;t lead to social democratic organization and/or revolution.


A contrast could be drawn to Columbia: the FARC is as hierarchical as any Marxist-Leninist party can be.

It&#39;s quite a joke to call the FARC Marxist-Leninist. I suggest you at least learn the most basic information about a group before you comment on them.


But the complete lack of any revolutionary situation just makes their victory very unlikely, and if so it would amount to, at best, social-democracy. Mass support, as I am sure you will agree, is always needed. In fact it is the only means possible.

Lenin agreed.


Now compare this hyper-democratic, indeed a participatory democracy, to that of the Bolshevik system which has been repeated far too many times.

It hasn&#39;t been repeated anywhere.




I don&#39;t think I said that it &#39;randomly&#39; popped into their heads&#33;

It was a result of class struggle, of the bourgeoisie liberal ideas against the old autocracy.

And it succeeded only by mass discontent over the material conditions, of the failings of the Tsarist order, not of any leading party.

And it hadn&#39;t yet assumed a revolutionary proletarian character. That came in October.

Are you going to go back and respond to my last post like you said you would?

Marsella
5th November 2007, 14:33
Are you going to go back and respond to my last post like you said you would?

Firstly, I would appreciate it if stopped being such an arrogant, bossy ****.

If I feel like answering your posts I will do so.

Normally I will answer posts that I find interesting or raise unique points.

Your posts usually lack both. Hence I ignore them like I would ignore herpes.


Straw man. You know very well that that&#39;s not what he meant.

I was elaborating retard. It is well within my right to. And I did say &#39;Which raises some interesting points&#39; which I then listed - so it is clear from anyone&#39;s observations that I was expanding the argument and not claiming he stated such.

And I also said this if you happened to ignore it dickbrain:


Whilst I&#39;m not claiming that you hold such an opinion it seems to be something I encounter a lot: &#39;for the greater good&#39;

Now fuck off with your bullshit fallacy claims.


When did this happen? I would expect perhaps a few countries for you to list, but certainly not the Bolsheviks.

Says you.


Then why do you rail against it so much?

Oho&#33;

The one who claims I am raising so many straw mans falls prey himself.

You know very well that I have a different concept of leadership from you, so stop acting like a stupid fuck.


No it doesn&#39;t.

History proves otherwise.


"In the first place, at the very outset of his argument, Engels says that, in seizing state power, the proletariat thereby “abolishes the state as state". It is not done to ponder over over the meaning of this. Generally, it is either ignored altogether, or is considered to be something in the nature of “Hegelian weakness” on Engels&#39; part. As a matter of fact, however, these words briefly express the experience of one of the greatest proletarian revolutions, the Paris Commune of 1871, of which we shall speak in greater detail in its proper plce. As a matter of fact, Engels speaks here of the proletariat revolution “abolishing” the bourgeois state, while the words about the state withering away refer to the remnants of the proletarian state after the socialist revolution. According to Engels, the bourgeois state does not “wither away", but is “abolished” by the proletariat in the course of the revolution. What withers away after this revolution is the proletarian state or semi-state.

Yes I agree that the bourgeoisie state can be abolished and should be.

The point is that this hasn&#39;t occurred in any Leninist revolution.

The state is taken over, the police, the army, the bureaucracy. The dictatorship of a party is usually added.


Secondly, the state is a “special coercive force". Engels gives this splendid and extremely profound definition here with the utmost lucidit. And from it follows that the “special coercive force” for the suppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie, of millions of working people by handfuls of the rich, must be replaced by a “special coercive force” for the suppression of the bourgeoisie by the proletariat (the dictatorship of the proletariat). This is precisely what is meant by “abolition of the state as state". This is precisely the “act” of taking possession of the means of production in the name of society. And it is self-evident that such a replacement of one (bourgeois) “special force” by another (proletarian) “special force” cannot possibly take place in the form of “withering away".

Thirdly, in speaking of the state “withering away", and the even more graphic and colorful “dying down of itself", Engels refers quite clearly and definitely to the period after “the state has taken possession of the means of production in the name of the whole of society", that is, after the socialist revolution. We all know that the political form of the “state” at that time is the most complete democracy. But it never enters the head of any of the opportunists, who shamelessly distort Marxism, that Engels is consequently speaking here of democracy “dying down of itself", or “withering away". This seems very strange at first sight. But is is “incomprehensible” only to those who have not thought about democracy also being a state and, consequently, also disappearing when the state disappears. Revolution alone can “abolish” the bourgeois state. The state in general, i.e., the most complete democracy, can only “wither away".

Of course the bourgeoisie state is a coercive measure.

Which begs the question of why has it constantly been kept in Leninist revolutions?


I thought leadership meant "educating workers, agitating and general activism." How does this create servility? You have constructed a false dichotomy.

Another strawman&#33;

Your concept of leadership, of the party controlling the state creates an attitude of servility.

My conception does not.

Understand?

I doubt it.


Social being determines consciousness.

You do know that when you place statements you should probably explain them. But I get your point nonetheless, not that it detracts from my argument anyway.

Being a boss makes you think like a boss.

Real fucking surprise.


And as for who you&#39;re really railing against, you&#39;re simply wrong, because the Bolshevik party was a mass party that had the support of the majority of the Russian working class. And as for your assertion that material conditions weren&#39;t developed enough, that&#39;s easy enough to debunk by the very fact that the working class revolted. I said this in my response to you in the other thread, yet you never fully replied, and now you go repeating the same untruths here. If you want to debate then respond to my points or just don&#39;t post.

:lol:

The fact that the workers revolted means that the material conditions are ready&#33;

Your logic dumbfounds me.

:lol:

Lets ignore the fact that over 80% were peasants, that Russia was an extremely unindustrialised country.

Lets ignore reality&#33;

I&#39;ve already said that the number of members of a political party counts for shit.

They had 60% of the Soviet seats.

You think that such a majority justifies a dictatorship of a party and turn that very organ which had helped buy them power into a mere ceremonial body ?

Fuck off&#33; :angry:

A total of 703 candidates were elected to the Constituent Assembly in November, 1917. This included Socialist Revolutionaries (299), Bolsheviks (168), Mensheviks (18) and Constitutional Democratic Party (17).

So the Bolsheviks had a majority in the Soviets, a minority in the CA so they abolished the CA. And that soon corresponded with the abolishment of all power of the Soviets, since anything which was said, done or thought by them had to be approved by the Bolshevik party.


Leadership isn&#39;t a dozen men.

I quite agree.


It hasn&#39;t been repeated anywhere.

Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, China all have their bases in the model yes.

Socialism from above.

A foul parody for working class democracy.


Lenin agreed.

Which is why he led a revolutionary movement in the most backwards country in Europe. <_<


And it hadn&#39;t yet assumed a revolutionary proletarian character. That came in October.

Yes the storming of the Winter Palace was proletarian through and through&#33;

And whatever nature of was proletarian was soon pissed on.

Which is why we should never put our faith in any party again.

And if such a party does raise its head, then I sincerely hope that the workers will recognise the threat it poses them and hang them like the philistines they are&#33;

Comrade Nadezhda
5th November 2007, 15:04
I was elaborating retard. It is well within my right to. And I did say &#39;Which raises some interesting points&#39; which I then listed - so it is clear from anyone&#39;s observations that I was expanding the argument and not claiming he stated such.

Now fuck off with your bullshit fallacy claims.
Perhaps if you made valid claims and did less shit throwing, comrades would actually listen to you.


Yes I agree that the bourgeoisie state can be abolished and should be.

The point is that this hasn&#39;t occurred in any Leninist revolution.

The state is taken over, the police, the army, the bureaucracy. The dictatorship of a party is usually added.
1.) Actually, a worker&#39;s state was formed-- i.e. the revolution did not fail.

2.) The bureaucracy wasn&#39;t in power at that time. The bureaucracy didn&#39;t even exist until after the civil war-- and it didn&#39;t gain power until Lenin&#39;s death.


Another strawman&#33;

Your concept of leadership, of the party controlling the state creates an attitude of servility.

My conception does not.

Understand?

I doubt it.
Explain your reasoning (humans have this rational capability, you know :huh: ) behind these bullshit statements instead of throwing bullshit statements around 1.) without a valid argument and 2.) throwing shit needlessly at my fellow comrades

You have yet to explain this-- you simply argue that "Leninist revolution" results in "dictatorship of the party" but you fail to provide a valid argument why other then quoting Engels, Marx, Lenin, among others out of context.


You do know that when you place statements you should probably explain them. But I get your point nonetheless, not that it detracts from my argument anyway.

Being a boss makes you think like a boss.

Real fucking surprise.
Stop throwing shit at other comrades-- you are simply refering to yourself.

Explain your arguments and give rational, relevant, factual explanations, please.


:lol:

The fact that the workers revolted means that the material conditions are ready&#33;

Your logic dumbfounds me.

:lol:

Lets ignore the fact that over 80% were peasants, that Russia was an extremely unindustrialised country.

Lets ignore reality&#33;

I&#39;ve already said that the number of members of a political party counts for shit.

They had 60% of the Soviet seats.

You think that such a majority justifies a dictatorship of a party and turn that very organ which had helped buy them power into a mere ceremonial body ?

Fuck off&#33; :angry:

A total of 703 candidates were elected to the Constituent Assembly in November, 1917. This included Socialist Revolutionaries (299), Bolsheviks (168), Mensheviks (18) and Constitutional Democratic Party (17).

So the Bolsheviks had a majority in the Soviets, a minority in the CA so they abolished the CA. And that soon corresponded with the abolishment of all power of the Soviets, since anything which was said, done or thought by them had to be approved by the Bolshevik party.
First of all, you need class consciousness, which doesn&#39;t just grow out of the fucking ground.

Secondly-- your claims in regard to "dictatorship of the party" are based upon utter stupidity-- get a grip on reality as you accuse comrades here of needing to do.

And lastly-- you deny the conditions existent which made it necessary for there to be centralized authority-- i.e. to eliminate counterrevolutionary and bourgeois threats which can&#39;t just be ignored if the revolutionary movemnet is to succeed.


Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, China all have their bases in the model yes.

Socialism from above.

A foul parody for working class democracy.
Quit making ignorant remarks which completely ignore circumstances and conditions-- by all fucking means go read up a bit and educate yourself you&#39;re speaking of complete bullshit.

"socialism from above" :blink: what kind of an idiotic claim is that?

you sound like a fucking reactionary.


Which is why he led a revolutionary movement in the most backwards country in Europe. <_<
Read Lenin&#39;s works-- sounds like you need further education on this subject :rolleyes:


Yes the storming of the Winter Palace was proletarian through and through&#33;

And whatever nature of was proletarian was soon pissed on.

Which is why we should never put our faith in any party again.

And if such a party does raise its head, then I sincerely hope that the workers will recognise the threat it poses them and hang them like the philistines they are&#33;
Perhaps if you understood Lenin&#39;s arguments better you could make proper arguments and statements in regards to this topic of relevance and not merely your bullshit opinions of it being "a dictatorship of the party".

Lenin did not make arguments in favor of his own personal interests or the interests of the vanguard or the "party". His arguments were in favor of the interests of the proletariat-- denying the necessity for what you refer to as "leninist" movement doesn&#39;t make it unnecessary, especially when you give no valid arguments supporting your claims. It is very clear, if you knew anything of what is being argued against your bullshit claims-- that you have completely misunderstood Lenin and revolutionary movement in regards to the Bolsheviks.

KC
5th November 2007, 21:53
Firstly, I would appreciate it if stopped being such an arrogant, bossy ****.

If I feel like answering your posts I will do so.

Normally I will answer posts that I find interesting or raise unique points.

Well you said you were going to in that PM you sent me, so I was just asking when you were planning on doing so.


Says you.

Are you going to counter what I said or just say this? This isn&#39;t much of an argument in your favor.


You know very well that I have a different concept of leadership from you

What is my concept of leadership and how is it different from yours?


History proves otherwise.

Well, if you claim that something called "Leninism" isn&#39;t what Lenin advocated (as I have clearly shown what Lenin advocated) and is something completely different then perhaps I would agree with you. Although in that case I&#39;m not sure why you&#39;d call it "Leninism".


Yes I agree that the bourgeoisie state can be abolished and should be.

The point is that this hasn&#39;t occurred in any Leninist revolution.

The state is taken over, the police, the army, the bureaucracy. The dictatorship of a party is usually added.

This is false.


Another strawman&#33;

Your concept of leadership, of the party controlling the state creates an attitude of servility.

My conception does not.

Understand?

I doubt it.

Of course I don&#39;t. If the party is democratic and supported by the masses (i.e. the majority of the proletariat and its allies) then what is wrong with this? The problem is that you automatically start from the assumption that a party is a top-down, dictatorial organization bent on controlling the movement and dictating to proletarians how to run the course of their transformation of society. This is a false premise, and this is why your arguments are incorrect; they are based on false assumptions.


The fact that the workers revolted means that the material conditions are ready&#33;

Your logic dumbfounds me.

If the material conditions weren&#39;t there, they wouldn&#39;t have revolted. The very fact that they did shows that the conditions were there.


Lets ignore the fact that over 80% were peasants, that Russia was an extremely unindustrialised country.

Yet it was one of the most industrious countries at the time. As I said in my post before, which you still haven&#39;t responded to (which forces me to repeat myself here), you can&#39;t simply classify Russia as "feudalist". The class dynamics and the historical conditions at the time were incredibly complex, and that sort of absolutism doesn&#39;t exist in reality.


Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, China all have their bases in the model yes.

Socialism from above.

A foul parody for working class democracy.

None of those were similar to the Bolshevik revolution at all.


Which is why he led a revolutionary movement in the most backwards country in Europe.

Which is why he helped build a mass party instead of adopting the Blanqui&#39;ist approach of an isolated organization or a bourgeois liberal organization that attempts to control the movement without support.


Yes the storming of the Winter Palace was proletarian through and through&#33;

That was a bourgeois-liberal revolution, supported by both the proletariat and their allies. In times of bourgeois revolutions it is common for the bourgeoisie to co-opt the under-classes and use them to their advantage, as is seen in numerous revolutions throughout history. This is why it led to a short-lived bourgeois democratic republic and not the dictatorship of the proletariat. A proletarian revolution has a character wholly different than what was seen in February; its goal is proletarian dictatorship and not bourgeois "democracy".

Just because proletarians participate in a revolution doesn&#39;t make it a "proletarian revolution".

And quit being so rude. I&#39;m sorry I was somewhat antagonistic in my last post, but calling me names isn&#39;t going to do anything besides get you worked up, so stop it.