Che's guevara's influence on communism in Cuba..

[..Teddy..jimmy]

As thread title suggests..Could someone point me in the right direction as I'm very interested in knowing.

News articles, sources, etc would definitely be appreciated.

[Dros]

As I understand it, Che was always more of a revolutionary than a government leader. After the revolution in Cuba, Che went on to fight revolutionary struggles in the Congo and Bolivia until he was captured and killed.

So Castro was the guy in charge. Some beleive that Castro was never really a communist. During the revolution, he never said he was communist. It was only after he seized power and realized that the USSR would be his most valuable ally that he really "turned communist". So Che didn't have all that much to do with the actual implementation of Socialism in Cuba, from what I can tell.

[lvleph]

From what I have gathered they were more of anti-imperialists, and turned communist when the USA told them to piss off.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If you're really interested in this, you'll need to study the Great Debate that took place in Cuba between 1963-63. The main forces were a camp, lead by Che, that fought for the Budgetary Finance System and the other camp, lead by Carlos Rodriguez, which fought for the then-Soviet model of using material incentives and capitalist methods of determining value.

You'll also need to look into the Rectification that took place in Cuba in the 1980's.

You may want to check this out: www.ehs.org.uk/ehs/conference2007/Assets/YaffeNRIIE.doc+budgetary+finance+che+guevara&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us]Ernesto (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:HFL3IolLRrMJ:[url) ‘Che’ Guevara: a rebel against Soviet Political Economy [/url]

You'll also want to read "On the budgetary finance system," which is available in the Che Guevara Reader, and "Che Guevara: Economics and Politics in the Transition to Socialism" by Carlos Tablada.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 05:23 pm
As I understand it, Che was always more of a revolutionary than a government leader. After the revolution in Cuba, Che went on to fight revolutionary struggles in the Congo and Bolivia until he was captured and killed.

So Castro was the guy in charge. Some beleive that Castro was never really a communist. During the revolution, he never said he was communist. It was only after he seized power and realized that the USSR would be his most valuable ally that he really "turned communist". So Che didn't have all that much to do with the actual implementation of Socialism in Cuba, from what I can tell.
This is completely bogus. Raul was already a communist, and Fidel had studied communist theory for years (including while in Prison after the Moncada attack).

Che worked within the July 26 Movement to win it over to a communist outlook; and that including fighting with rightist elements in the cities (and some of those struggles are documented.. in Carlos Franqui's 'Diary of the Cuban Revolution' for example).

He also played a leading role in the consolidation of the Cuban workers' state (i.e. through his early work in the Ministry of Industries).

[Dros]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 03, 2007 07:43 pm
This is completely bogus. Raul was already a communist, and Fidel had studied communist theory for years (including while in Prison after the Moncada attack).

Che worked within the July 26 Movement to win it over to a communist outlook; and that including fighting with rightist elements in the cities (and some of those struggles are documented.. in Carlos Franqui's 'Diary of the Cuban Revolution' for example).

He also played a leading role in the consolidation of the Cuban workers' state (i.e. through his early work in the Ministry of Industries).
The question (as I understood it) was about how Che influenced the actual implementation of socialism in Cuba post revolution. While what you say is true, it is also true that Che spent much of his time after the revolution in other countries conducting revolution. I never suggested that Raul and Che weren't communists. The movement itself was not communist and while those two were communists and obviously influenced the movement, Che's role in actual government implementation was limited, not by Castro but by his revolutionary activities abroad. Castro only declared himself a "communist" once he needed Soviet aid. And by that time the Soviet Union wasn't really communist so I have a hard time calling Castro communist in any real sense.

So no it's not bogus.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think you should study the history of the Cuban Revolution a bit more.

Fidel studied communist theory way before the revolution occurred. He requested books by Lenin and Marx while in prison for the Moncada assault. He constantly tied Marti's anti-imperialism into modern anti-imperialism. Popularizing communist theory and not taking on dogmas does not mean one is not objectively a part of a communist movement.

And yes, the question was of "the actual implementation of socialism in Cuba post revolution," and I answered that question.

"He also played a leading role in the consolidation of the Cuban workers' state (i.e. through his early work in the Ministry of Industries)."

In other words, the socialization of Cuba largely involved Che's leadership and suggestions. He "pointed out the line of march," as communists are supposed to. He formulated the budgetary finance system, the theory of 'the new man,' etc.

He had a lot to do with "the actual implementation of socialism," by which I can only assume is meant the construction of socialism, in Cuba.

[Dros]

After further research, I have concluded that I may have underestimated Che's involvement. But I still maintain that 1.) his most important work after the Cuban revolution was in other countries 2.) that his most important roles in the Cuban government were Commander of La Cabana, diplomat, and Minister of Industries. His role of minister of industries and president of the Cuban national bank did give him a role in the establishment of Cuban socialism. But his long absences and his work of prosecuting/executing Bourgoisie after the revolution ultimately mitigated his direct involvement.

As to Castro's communism, while he did clearly study communist literature, that does not make him a communist or mean that he held those beliefs. If he was a communist, he could have stated so before he gained power. While he was clearly an anti-imperialist, he only espoused a communist ideology when it became politically necessary for him to do so. And when he did it was the "communism" of Kruschev and the Soviet Union. Che recognized this flaw and it caused him to some what break away from Castro. So, no I do not think Castro is a communist in any real sense.

[Guerrilla Manila]

While Che was overseeing the INRA (the National Institute of Agrarian Reform), he was able to carry out one of the most extensive land reforms ever seen. Large plantations were seized from big (often foreign owned) businesses and oligarchs and given to the poor farmers that actually worked them.

In addition, an Urban Reform was also carried out in which all rents were lowered so that no renter would have to spend more than 10% of their income on housing, and, after a few years, would receive ownership of it. The mansions of the rich were turned over to the servants that worked in them and the government bought up homes which weren't being used (usually because the previous owners had several homes) and redistributed them to people in need of housing.

[manoj8788]

Mr.Drosera..This is manoj from INDIA.Mr.Castro was not actually turned himself as a communist after his success in Cuba,But he was reluctant to show himself as a communist to the people of cuba because those days,People of cuba was very much frightened and afraid of the word Communist.He even tried to preach Communist principles to cuban fighter turned farmers,But it failed.

He also thought of joining hands with the communist party people of cuba for war against batista.

So he kept silent till the victory to announce himself as a communist and to tackle america and other super powers like spain who were waiting to conquer cuba again,he and Che needed Russia's support.Che is the one who had good relations with Russian government.

May i know from where you are?? to have some good talks on matters which we need better clarifications.

[Marxist Napoleon]

I think Che was somewhat more of a revolutionary than Fidel, but Fidel is more valuable to us today. Also, Fidel said in "Fidel and Religion" that he was a Marxist prior to and during the Revolution, but he didn't want to alienate any potential revolutionaries early on.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 03, 2007 09:56 pm
Popularizing communist theory and not taking on dogmas does not mean one is not objectively a part of a communist movement.
i fucking love this comment.