Venezuela Congress OKs lifting Chavez term limits

[CheLover]

Some of the 69 proposed amendments Venezuela's National Assembly approved for a constitutional referendum in December:

_ Allow authorities to detain citizens without charges and censor the media when the president declares a state of emergency.

_ Prohibit torture, being held incommunicado and sentences of more than 30 years.

_ Enable the government to expropriate private property without a court ruling and allow property to be managed by state-organized cooperatives.

_ Give the executive branch total control over the currently independent Central Bank. Allow the executive branch to set monetary policy.
Reduce the workday from eight to six hours and prohibit forced overtime.

_ Reduce the minimum voting age from 18 to 16.

_ Create a state-run social security fund for Venezuelans working in the "informal economy," such as taxi drivers, hair dressers, artisans, fishermen and farmers.

_ Prohibit "associations with political objectives" from receiving foriegn funds.

_ Extend presidential terms from six to seven years. Eliminate limits on two consecutive presidential terms.

_ Increase from 20 percent to 30 percent the number of voters' signatures required to trigger a presidential recall vote.

For more info please go here Venezuela (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071102/wl_nm/venezuela_referendum_dc)

[CheLover]

Now I am a little suspicious of some of these reforms.

Almost like something isn't right with these laws and I got that bad feeling like something is going to happen or we are being suckered.

Why does he want to remove term limits? Now assuming worst case scenario he is assasinated or there is a coup. Doesn't that make the job of the opposition easier because the could rule indefinately. :(

Why allow authorities to detain citizens without charges and censor the media when the president declares a state of emergency? Is this necessary? :(

and sentences of more than 30 years? :(

I got this bad feeling like the illuminati is pulling strings and Chavez is a puppet for them because some of these laws are no different then the Neo-Con laws in the US?

Help me out.

[spartan]

Allow authorities to detain citizens without charges and censor the media when the president declares a state of emergency.
This is good if you consider that Chavez is really following Socialism and only wants to stop the significant pro U$ middle class and certain, non-Socialist, anti-Chavez media networks.

What makes this bad is if Chavez starts using this new set of powers he now has to silence his own supporters if they become to critical of him. :(

Prohibit torture, being held incommunicado and sentences of more than 30 years.
Good for the people who dont really deserve this treatment, the Socialist working class, but what if the, non-Socialist, opposition and the pro U$ middle class tries anything funny?

They should be made to suffer for their whoring out of Venezuela to the Yankee Capitalist Imperialists! :angry:

Enable the government to expropriate private property without a court ruling and allow property to be managed by state-organized cooperatives.
Nothing wrong there except the state part.

Why cant the workers themselves be trusted to organize the cooperatives?

This is too USSR style Socialism for my liking but hey if it brings prosperity and order to the Venezuelan Proletariat then who am i to complain?

Give the executive branch total control over the currently independent Central Bank. Allow the executive branch to set monetary policy.
Reduce the workday from eight to six hours and prohibit forced overtime.
This sounds really good actually.

Reduce the minimum voting age from 18 to 16.
Pointless but i suppose it gives a chance for younger people intrested in politics a chance to exercise their rights at an earlier age.

Now all we need next is for Chavez to set up a Venezuelan Socialist youth league :D

Create a state-run social security fund for Venezuelans working in the "informal economy," such as taxi drivers, hair dressers, artisans, fishermen and farmers.
Good.

Prohibit "associations with political objectives" from receiving foriegn funds.
Good because this will stop the U$ funding the, non-Socialist, opposition groups and it will hopefully keep Venezuelan politics Venezuelan only!

Having said that i am sure that the U$ will find a way to illegally fund the opposition :angry:

Extend presidential terms from six to seven years. Eliminate limits on two consecutive presidential terms.
Well this was the real biggy was'nt it?

And i suppose that if the people want you for more than two terms then what right has a constitution to stop you? (Especially when it can be amended ;) :lol: ).

Increase from 20 percent to 30 percent the number of voters' signatures required to trigger a presidential recall vote.
Well if it turns out that Chavez is following Socialism then his attempts at stoping the opposition from advancing are welcomed.

All in all these constitutional amendments give Chavez alot more leeway in his attempts at implementing Socialism, if that is what he is doing?, in Venezuela which is a country that has suffered at the hands of the pro U$ middle class for far to long now!

[Wanted Man]

Umm, spartan, it says PROHIBIT torture.

Anyway, I agree with most of these. Don't really care for the first one, though. Presidential term limits and recall votes are pretty unimportant. The rest is fucking awesome.

[Ismail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:30 pm
Why does he want to remove term limits? Now assuming worst case scenario he is assasinated or there is a coup. Doesn't that make the job of the opposition easier because the could rule indefinately. :(

Why allow authorities to detain citizens without charges and censor the media when the president declares a state of emergency? Is this necessary? :(

and sentences of more than 30 years? :(

I got this bad feeling like the illuminati is pulling strings and Chavez is a puppet for them because some of these laws are no different then the Neo-Con laws in the US?
1. Term limits are undemocratic. If people support the leader and his/her system, why shouldn't he or she be able to rule longer?
2. Yes, the bourgeois will always attempt to revert to a previous system. In the case where a state of emergency is declared, it will obviously be for a good reason.
3. Irrelevant.
4. Irrelevant amero-centric viewpoint. Also, the Illuminati doesn't exist. At least not in the "rule the world" sense.

[spartan]

Umm, spartan, it says PROHIBIT torture.
Thanx for that Van Binsbergen i have now corrected it ;)

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 09:02 pm
Yes, the bourgeois will always attempt to revert to a previous system. In the case where a state of emergency is declared, it will obviously be for a good reason.
The "rights" provided to the state establishment, under any leadership or ideology, should never have the ability to exercise those "rights" under any case - even a declared "state of emergency." It lends itself far too easy to corruption.

I can have faith in a party or institution, but will never lend faith to ANYONE in having such a high level of easily corruptable control.

[Sam_b]

but what if the, non-Socialist, opposition and the pro U$ middle class tries anything funny?

They should be made to suffer for their whoring out of Venezuela to the Yankee Capitalist Imperialists!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Die Neue Zeit]

What's more important: the "people's will" or the responsibility incumbent upon each working-class person to "learn how to govern the [post-capitalist] state" (Lenin)? :(

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:19 pm

but what if the, non-Socialist, opposition and the pro U$ middle class tries anything funny?

They should be made to suffer for their whoring out of Venezuela to the Yankee Capitalist Imperialists!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
What? They should! Anyway, I think this is great news and will strengthen the Bolivarian Revolution.

[Killer Enigma]

It ought to be pointed out that the United States had no term limits well into the 1940s. Moreover, liberal democratic nations such as France and the United Kingdom have no term limits on their executive leader (in France's case, a President).

Why was there no outcry when Colombia pursued the same types of reforms a few years earlier?

All food for thought.

[Sam_b]

What? They should!

Be tortured?

[Ismail]

Originally posted by Killer Enigma+November 02, 2007 09:40 pm--> (Killer Enigma @ November 02, 2007 09:40 pm)It ought to be pointed out that the United States had no term limits well into the 1940s.[/b]
Indeed. And the only reason they instituted term limits was because FDR was becoming a bit autocratic. Thing is, that is due to the flaws of the US system rather than no term limits. He stacked the Supreme Court, etc.


MeetingPeopleIsEasy
The "rights" provided to the state establishment, under any leadership or ideology, should never have the ability to exercise those "rights" under any case - even a declared "state of emergency." It lends itself far too easy to corruption.

I can have faith in a party or institution, but will never lend faith to ANYONE in having such a high level of easily corruptible control.You assume that when state of emergency is declared it will be 100% chaos and will suddenly be declared by Chávez out of the blue with no input from anyone else. I'm sure it goes a bit more in depth than "Chávez is God and can make a nation go from 'Woot Socialism!' to 'OH FUCK ARRGGH HELP' in twelve seconds."

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 08:47 pm

What? They should!

Be tortured?
Not specifically, but they should be punished if they advocate counter-revolution

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 12:15 am
You assume that when state of emergency is declared it will be 100% chaos and will suddenly be declared by Chávez out of the blue with no input from anyone else. I'm sure it goes a bit more in depth than "Chávez is God and can make a nation go from 'Woot Socialism!' to 'OH FUCK ARRGGH HELP' in twelve seconds."
Don't be so quick to condemn me to assumptions, because I don't "assume" anything. Chavez could use these capabilities totally legitimitely, I'm not saying he neccissarily wouldn't. I just think its dangerous to hand over such a level of legal control that could so easily be used in a manner it shouldn't be, regardless of whether I not I think they would actually do that.

[ComradeR]

This quite excellent and though it does carries risks it is definitely another step in the right direction.

[Dimentio]

I do not think the 6-hour working day is really what Venezuela needs right now. Even France got problems with similar reforms.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 06:25 am
This quite excellent and though it does carries risks it is definitely another step in the right direction.
Something involving being able to detain people without charges is a "step in the right direction?". Do you realize how easily that could be abused (not to imply Chavez would, but it isn't absurd to view it as a possible scenario)?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I do not think the 6-hour working day is really what Venezuela needs right now.

You'd probably think differently if you were a worker in Venezuela.

[Sam_b]

but they should be punished if they advocate counter-revolution


Agreed. But torture? Naw.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 03, 2007 09:30 pm

I do not think the 6-hour working day is really what Venezuela needs right now.

You'd probably think differently if you were a worker in Venezuela.
Yes I know, but it could actually either increase inflation or reduce growth. And Venezuela needs economic growth, especially in the other sectors than the oil sector.

[cenv]

Originally posted by Serpent+November 03, 2007 09:51 pm--> (Serpent @ November 03, 2007 09:51 pm)
Compañ[email protected] 03, 2007 09:30 pm

I do not think the 6-hour working day is really what Venezuela needs right now.

You'd probably think differently if you were a worker in Venezuela.
Yes I know, but it could actually either increase inflation or reduce growth. And Venezuela needs economic growth, especially in the other sectors than the oil sector. [/b]
This is an argument that can be (and is) always used by capitalists against people who advocate giving workers' more power or higher living standards. I think CdL is right -- if the workers in Venezuela want to work for 2 extra hours each day, then it's up for them to decide that.

A lot of these reforms are good, but some of them have me worried too. Yes, perhaps Chavez will use his increased power to further the "revolution" and suppress reactionary elements... but this is another classic excuse that is more often used to justify reaction than to enable progress, and it's naive to think that Chavez will necessarily use his newfound power benevolently. In the end, while Chavez is making life better for a lot of Venezuelan workers, you don't build working-class power by giving more power to the bourgeois state.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Remember: "the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready made State machinery and weld it for its own purposes."

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 02:04 am

Umm, spartan, it says PROHIBIT torture.
Thanx for that Van Binsbergen i have now corrected it ;)
Well, that doesn't make it much better. I can't say that I find anything appealing about torture at all.

[spartan]

I can't say that I find anything appealing about torture at all.
If it turns you on then torture is, honest to God, not all that bad!

[Goatse]

Surely if there is true revolutionary spirit in Venezuela, Chavez would be replaced by someone equally left wing?

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 12:24 am
Not specifically, but they should be punished if they advocate counter-revolution
If they advocate. I couldn't agree with that. They might have shite ideas, but trying to simply outlaw ideas is nothing but a bandaid approach. And can even feed into their "mission" and why people "should support them."

If they engage in straight up conflict or violation of socialism, thats different. But punishing someone who says "I think this is bullshit" is itself, bullshit. The best way to destroy opposing ideas is to simply prove them wrong. Anything left of the opposition, would then, be laughable.

[Herman]

Surely if there is true revolutionary spirit in Venezuela, Chavez would be replaced by someone equally left wing?

Eventually, yes, he will be replaced by someone as or more radical. For now, he is needed. He is charismatic and has done well all these years, so there is no reason to replace him.

[Cheung Mo]

Why is an 8 hour day so ornerous anyways?

[Comrade-Z]

The 6-hour day is an excellent idea. Y'all seem to think that people stop "working" after they leave the place of their employment. Not at all true. People continue to (re)produce their social life and its intellectual and physical instruments as long as they are awake and conscious and actively participating in their society. We just don't call this stuff "work" because it is self-directed and actually quite satisfying. The 6-hour workday allows people to enlarge the scope of their self-directed "work." You get more time to take care of your kids and teach them and help them grow up to be beautiful, intelligent, constructive people. You get more time to garden, or build community organizations, or train to be a doctor, or whatever. Only in the U.S., where we are accustomed to using our non-work hours solely to passively consume, vegetating mindlessly in front of the telescreen, or instance, doing nothing participatory or constructive in our society, only here do we equate non-work hours with "unproductive" time. That shows the true extent to which we have been ideologically defeated by the capitalist class---even on a rare occasion when we or our comrades in Venezuela have the opportunity to shorten the length of wage-slavery in the day and enlarge the length of self-directed activity, we turn it down...not a good sign.

Also, I'll add: the stuff on pushing aside the law in states of emergencies is quite counterproductive. In REAL cases of emergency, the state should first and foremost depend on the massive participation of the people to defend "the revolution" (insofar as we can speak of a revolution in Venezuela). We least want to have the people sidelined during a counter-revolutionary emergency. The people is the best asset that the revolution has (insofar as the revolution is has not become corrupted and is still in support of the people, which the people in general should be in the position to judge).

The stuff on term limits is irrelevant. Real power is not exerted through elections anyways, but through the social pressure that is exerted on politicians between elections.