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hisham
2nd November 2007, 13:12
God through Reason#1
This is Sheikh Wahiduddin from God Arises. I will continue with more excerpts.

God through Reason#1

Today, the understanding of reality is through observation and experiment, but since religious beliefs concern the supernatural sphere of existence, they are thus considered unverifiable. Arguments in their favor are based entirely on assumption and inference: this being so, they are declared to have no acceptable scientific basis. Arguments against religion are there because the claims of religion are unfounded as they are neither based on any valid argument, nor scientifically demonstrable; religion belongs strictly to the domain of faith, and reality is considered verifiable.

But this case against religion has itself no basis in fact. It should not be forgotten that the modern method of reasoning does not insist that only those things which can come under direct observation have a real existence. A scientific supposition which is based on direct observation can also be as much a fact as the result of scientific experiment.

For instance, the electron is unobservable. It is so tiny that neither can a microscope show it, nor a weighing scale weigh it. Yet, in the world of science, the existence of electron is considered a reality. This is because although an electron itself is not visible, some of its effects repeatedly come within our experience, and no explanation can be found for them other than the existence of a system like that of the electron. The electron is a supposition, but since the basis of this supposition is indirect observation, science must concede that it exists.

Science does not, and can not claim that reality is limited only to what enters directly into our experience through the senses. We can see with our own eyes that water is liquid, but the fact that each molecule of water consists of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen is something which escapes us, because these atoms are not visible. The way to arrive at this conclusion is by inference. For instance, we apprehend water by direct perception of its appearance. But it is only by INFERENCE, and not by direct observation that I can grasp the fact that each molecule of water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen.

From the above discussion, it becomes quite clear that it is not proper to regard religion, on the one hand, as being based on faith in the unseen, and treat science, on the other hand, as being based on observation. It must be admitted that science just like religion, is ultimately a matter of having faith in the unseen.

An atom provides an irrefutable example of scientists’ faith in the unseen. An atom has never physically been observed. Yet it is the greatest established truth accepted by modern science. A scholar has rightly defined scientific theories as ‘mental pictures that explain known laws.’ In the field of science, the notion of so-called ‘observed’ facts are not so in the strictest sense of the word: they are simply interpretations of certain observations.
(Our observations of nature are used to derive conclusions.) The greatest evidence of God before us is His creation. (We INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator just as a scientist infers from certain observations that there are atoms.)

Forward Union
2nd November 2007, 13:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:12 pm
For instance, the electron is unobservable.
It is actualyl detectable though, we can prove it exists. We just can't see it with the naked eye. God however is completely undetectable, and there is nothing that even hints at his existence.

The entire premise of this argument is flawed, the things it claims are not observable, are. We just can't see them.


It is so tiny that neither can a microscope show it, nor a weighing scale weigh it. Yet, in the world of science, the existence of electron is considered a reality.

That's because it is a reality. We can make judgements on it based on its effects on its surrounding, electrons have a direct impact on things

I mean, come on man, saying they exist isn't a baseless assertion, if it was I would equally be able to argue they don't exist, but thats obviously not true, so how do we know they exist? Well we fucking made observations.

I couldn't tell you what one looked like though.


Science does not, and can not claim that reality is limited only to what enters directly into our experience through the senses.

And religion cannot claim that there is reality beyond our direct experiences. Because if it does, it's just an assertion that isn't backed up by reason. You'd just be making shit up.

If it's beyond what enters into out experience through senses, then it basically doesn't exist. Because we will never be able to experience it...


Our observations of nature are used to derive conclusions

In the same way if I put a sheet over a box, I could derive that it was a cube, withotu seeing the box.


The greatest evidence of God before us is His creation.

Ah, the old watchmaker analogy. I didn't know people still used that one. The idea that the universe is so complicated, like a mechansied watch, it must also have had a creator.

But watches have more than one creator. Could I not conclude that the Universe was made by a team of Gods? Why does the existance of the universe derive you to conclude there is one god?

Also, we know from observation that the universe wasn't very complicated to begin with, nor was life quite so intricate, it has developed, natually over time. Could I not derive that perhaps it didn't have a creator?

Also, I dunno if you've noticed, but things aren't particularly great. There are a few problems with Gods "creation" ..would it not be reasonable to assume he was crap at making things?

lastly, If the existance of the universe leads us to conclude that a God exists, would it not be reasonable to derive from his existance that he must have had a creator also, and so on and so forth...

Marsella
2nd November 2007, 13:28
An atom provides an irrefutable example of scientists’ faith in the unseen.

There are other proofs besides proof of the eye.

But it usually stands as a good starting ground that if you cannot observe something it does not exist. I do not see unicorns or dragons, and nor do others, therefore it is a good starting ground to assert that they do not exist.

And of course, there is no proof of God through observation of the eye or otherwise.


It must be admitted that science just like religion, is ultimately a matter of having faith in the unseen.

That sounds dubious to say the least.

I'm not well versed in physics or philosophy, so perhaps ComradeRed or Rosa would be more suited to discredit these arguments.

Edit: William did a good job anyway :P

RevMARKSman
2nd November 2007, 16:00
For instance, the electron is unobservable. It is so tiny that neither can a microscope show it, nor a weighing scale weigh it. Yet, in the world of science, the existence of electron is considered a reality. This is because although an electron itself is not visible, some of its effects repeatedly come within our experience, and no explanation can be found for them other than the existence of a system like that of the electron. The electron is a supposition, but since the basis of this supposition is indirect observation, science must concede that it exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.J._Thomson

Dumbass.

Jazzratt
2nd November 2007, 16:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:12 pm
From the above discussion, it becomes quite clear that it is not proper to regard religion, on the one hand, as being based on faith in the unseen, and treat science, on the other hand, as being based on observation. It must be admitted that science just like religion, is ultimately a matter of having faith in the unseen.
Drawing reasonable conclusions on the unseen based on empirical evidence is a little better than drawing wild conclusions about the unseen because you want to believe those conclusions. Also it's a massive strawman to argue that the scientific argument against god demands some kind of direct evidence that it exists, indirect evidence that can be concluded from direct observation is acceptable - but you have to bear in mind Occam's razor (basically the theory that is "simplest" [i.e posits the least extraneous entities] is most likely to be correct).


An atom provides an irrefutable example of scientists’ faith in the unseen. An atom has never physically been observed. Yet it is the greatest established truth accepted by modern science.

Explain nuclear energy without reference to atoms then, smartarse. Also you seem a bit behind the times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_spectroscopy), we're on the way to developing more ways (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nanotechnology/Optical_Methods#Laser_Scanning_Confocal_Microscopy _.28LSCM.29) of "seeing" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV/Vis_spectroscopy) smaller and smaller things. Doubtless one day we shall be observing atoms.


A scholar has rightly defined scientific theories as ‘mental pictures that explain known laws.’ In the field of science, the notion of so-called ‘observed’ facts are not so in the strictest sense of the word: they are simply interpretations of certain observations.
(Our observations of nature are used to derive conclusions.)

That's a fair definition of science, it doesn't make the scientific theories any less correct.


The greatest evidence of God before us is His creation. (We INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator just as a scientist infers from certain observations that there are atoms.)

WE has already talked about the problems with the watchmaker argument, so I'll limit myself to pointing out that Occam's razor has tripped you up - in an attempt to explain the universe you have posited an entity for which there is no evidence (remember you're trying to explain the universe, so that isn't evidence) and that simply complicates matters - therefore your theory fails.

Dean
5th November 2007, 16:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:12 pm
(We INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator just as a scientist infers from certain observations that there are atoms.)
^The above is the only acctual point made towards the existance of a god, so I'll ignore the rest.

A scientist infers from certain observations something reasonable and logical based not only on thsoe observations, but the udnerstanding of how such observations work and other information that is known to the field.

Contrarily, you "INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator."

Yet, no indication of a creator is demonstrated by the "superb organization" of our universe and certainly not from the "very existance" of it. This is all nonsense. I may as well say "The earth is round, therefore it is filled with faeries and unicorns." The logic is the same.

synthesis
5th November 2007, 18:40
For instance, the electron is unobservable. It is so tiny that neither can a microscope show it, nor a weighing scale weigh it. Yet, in the world of science, the existence of electron is considered a reality. This is because although an electron itself is not visible, some of its effects repeatedly come within our experience, and no explanation can be found for them other than the existence of a system like that of the electron. The electron is a supposition, but since the basis of this supposition is indirect observation, science must concede that it exists.

They cannot be observed without technology that is not currently available as far as I know, but that does not mean that their effect cannot be proven, measured and predicted. The Gods of mythology can never be approached in such a way and therefore there can be no such God "through" Reason, unless we wish to argue that God is Reason itself.

Big Boss
9th November 2007, 00:55
http://www.tic3tac.com/atomo_1.jpg

This is a photo of a xenon atom. Thanks to the effort of such brilliant minds as Gerd Binnig, this photograph is possible. He won the Novel Prize in 1986. See!! Atoms DO exist, and they CAN be seen. They're not the machinations of the scientific community's faith, their existence is proven without any doubt. -_-