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Capitalist Lawyer
31st October 2007, 04:19
12 Myths of 21st-Century War

Myth No. 1: War doesn't change anything.

This campus slogan contradicts all of human history. Over thousands of years, war has been the last resort - and all too frequently the first resort - of tribes, religions, dynasties, empires, states and demagogues driven by grievance, greed or a heartless quest for glory. No one believes that war is a good thing, but it is sometimes necessary. We need not agree in our politics or on the manner in which a given war is prosecuted, but we can't pretend that if only we laid down our arms all others would do the same.

Wars, in fact, often change everything. Who would argue that the American Revolution, our Civil War or World War II changed nothing? Would the world be better today if we had been pacifists in the face of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan?

Certainly, not all of the changes warfare has wrought through the centuries have been positive. Even a just war may generate undesirable results, such as Soviet tyranny over half of Europe after 1945. But of one thing we may be certain: a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization. Our enemies believe that war can change the world. And they won't be deterred by bumper stickers.

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.

Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don't need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

And you can't win if you won't fight. We're at the start of a violent struggle that will ebb and flow for decades, yet our current generation of leaders, in and out of uniform, worries about hurting the enemy's feelings.

One of the tragedies of our involvement in Iraq is that while we did a great thing by removing Saddam Hussein, we tried to do it on the cheap. It's an iron law of warfare that those unwilling to pay the butcher's bill up front will pay it with compound interest in the end. We not only didn't want to pay that bill, but our leaders imagined that we could make friends with our enemies even before they were fully defeated. Killing a few hundred violent actors like Moqtada al-Sadr in 2003 would have prevented thousands of subsequent American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. We started something our national leadership lacked the guts to finish.

Despite our missteps, victory looked a great deal less likely in the early months of 1942 than it does against our enemies today. Should we have surrendered after the fall of the Philippines? Today's opinionmakers and elected officials have lost their grip on what it takes to win. In the timeless words of Nathan Bedford Forrest, "War means fighting, and fighting means killing."

And in the words of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it."

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

Myth No. 4: There's no military solution; only negotiations can solve our problems.

In most cases, the reverse is true. Negotiations solve nothing until a military decision has been reached and one side recognizes a peace agreement as its only hope of survival. It would be a welcome development if negotiations fixed the problems we face in Iraq, but we're the only side interested in a negotiated solution. Every other faction - the terrorists, Sunni insurgents, Shia militias, Iran and Syria - is convinced it can win.

The only negotiations that produce lasting results are those conducted from positions of indisputable strength.

Myth No. 5: When we fight back, we only provoke our enemies.

When dealing with bullies, either in the schoolyard or in a global war, the opposite is true: if you don't fight back, you encourage your enemy to behave more viciously.

Passive resistance only works when directed against rule-of-law states, such as the core English-speaking nations. It doesn't work where silent protest is answered with a bayonet in the belly or a one-way trip to a political prison. We've allowed far too many myths about the "innate goodness of humanity" to creep up on us. Certainly, many humans would rather be good than bad. But if we're unwilling to fight the fraction of humanity that's evil, armed and determined to subjugate the rest, we'll face even grimmer conflicts.

Myth No. 6: Killing terrorists only turns them into martyrs.

It's an anomaly of today's Western world that privileged individuals feel more sympathy for dictators, mass murderers and terrorists - consider the irrational protests against Guantanamo - than they do for their victims. We were told, over and over, that killing Osama bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, hanging Saddam Hussein or targeting the Taliban's Mullah Omar would only unite their followers. Well, we haven't yet gotten Osama or Omar, but Zarqawi's dead and forgotten by his own movement, whose members never invoke that butcher's memory. And no one is fighting to avenge Saddam. The harsh truth is that when faced with true fanatics, killing them is the only way to end their influence. Imprisoned, they galvanize protests, kidnappings, bombings and attacks that seek to free them. Want to make a terrorist a martyr? Just lock him up. Attempts to try such monsters in a court of law turn into mockeries that only provide public platforms for their hate speech, which the global media is delighted to broadcast. Dead, they're dead. And killing them is the ultimate proof that they lack divine protection. Dead terrorists don't kill.

Myth No. 7: If we fight as fiercely as our enemies, we're no better than them.

Did the bombing campaign against Germany turn us into Nazis? Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?

The greatest immorality is for the United States to lose a war. While we seek to be as humane as the path to victory permits, we cannot shrink from doing what it takes to win. At present, the media and influential elements of our society are obsessed with the small immoralities that are inevitable in wartime. Soldiers are human, and no matter how rigorous their training, a miniscule fraction of our troops will do vicious things and must be punished as a consequence. Not everyone in uniform will turn out to be a saint, and not every chain of command will do its job with equal effectiveness. But obsessing on tragic incidents - of which there have been remarkably few in Iraq or Afghanistan - obscures the greater moral issue: the need to defeat enemies who revel in butchering the innocent, who celebrate atrocities, and who claim their god wants blood.

Myth No. 8: The United States is more hated today than ever before.

Those who served in Europe during the Cold War remember enormous, often-violent protests against U.S. policy that dwarfed today's let's-have-fun-on-a-Sunday-afternoon rallies. Older readers recall the huge ban-the-bomb, pro-communist demonstrations of the 1950s and the vast seas of demonstrators filling the streets of Paris, Rome and Berlin to protest our commitment to Vietnam. Imagine if we'd had 24/7 news coverage of those rallies. I well remember serving in Germany in the wake of our withdrawal from Saigon, when U.S. soldiers were despised by the locals - who nonetheless were willing to take our money - and terrorists tried to assassinate U.S. generals.

The fashionable anti-Americanism of the chattering classes hasn't stopped the world from seeking one big green card. As I've traveled around the globe since 9/11, I've found that below the government-spokesman/professional-radical level, the United States remains the great dream for university graduates from Berlin to Bangalore to Bogota.

On the domestic front, we hear ludicrous claims that our country has never been so divided. Well, that leaves out our Civil War. Our historical amnesia also erases the violent protests of the late 1960s and early 1970s, the mass confrontations, rioting and deaths. Is today's America really more fractured than it was in 1968?

Myth No. 9: Our invasion of Iraq created our terrorist problems.

This claim rearranges the order of events, as if the attacks of 9/11 happened after Baghdad fell. Our terrorist problems have been created by the catastrophic failure of Middle Eastern civilization to compete on any front and were exacerbated by the determination of successive U.S. administrations, Democrat and Republican, to pretend that Islamist terrorism was a brief aberration. Refusing to respond to attacks, from the bombings in Beirut to Khobar Towers, from the first attack on the Twin Towers to the near-sinking of the USS Cole, we allowed our enemies to believe that we were weak and cowardly. Their unchallenged successes served as a powerful recruiting tool.

Did our mistakes on the ground in Iraq radicalize some new recruits for terror? Yes. But imagine how many more recruits there might have been and the damage they might have inflicted on our homeland had we not responded militarily in Afghanistan and then carried the fight to Iraq. Now Iraq is al-Qaeda's Vietnam, not ours.

Myth No. 10: If we just leave, the Iraqis will patch up their differences on their own.

The point may come at which we have to accept that Iraqis are so determined to destroy their own future that there's nothing more we can do. But we're not there yet, and leaving immediately would guarantee not just one massacre but a series of slaughters and the delivery of a massive victory to the forces of terrorism. We must be open-minded about practical measures, from changes in strategy to troop reductions, if that's what the developing situation warrants. But it's grossly irresponsible to claim that our presence is the primary cause of the violence in Iraq - an allegation that ignores history.

Myth No. 11: It's all Israel's fault. Or the popular Washington corollary: "The Saudis are our friends."

Israel is the Muslim world's excuse for failure, not a reason for it. Even if we didn't support Israel, Islamist extremists would blame us for countless other imagined wrongs, since they fear our freedoms and our culture even more than they do our military. All men and women of conscience must recognize the core difference between Israel and its neighbors: Israel genuinely wants to live in peace, while its genocidal neighbors want Israel erased from the map.

As for the mad belief that the Saudis are our friends, it endures only because the Saudis have spent so much money on both sides of the aisle in Washington. Saudi money continues to subsidize anti-Western extremism, to divide fragile societies, and encourage hatred between Muslims and all others. Saudi extremism has done far more damage to the Middle East than Israel ever did. The Saudis are our enemies.

Myth No. 12: The Middle East's problems are all America's fault.

Muslim extremists would like everyone to believe this, but it just isn't true. The collapse of once great Middle Eastern civilizations has been under way for more than five centuries, and the region became a backwater before the United States became a country. For the first century and a half of our national existence, our relations with the people of the Middle East were largely beneficent and protective, notwithstanding our conflict with the Barbary Pirates in North Africa. But Islamic civilization was on a downward trajectory that could not be arrested. Its social and economic structures, its values, its neglect of education, its lack of scientific curiosity, the indolence of its ruling classes and its inability to produce a single modern state that served its people all guaranteed that, as the West's progress accelerated, the Middle East would fall ever farther behind. The Middle East has itself to blame for its problems.

None of us knows what our strategic future holds, but we have no excuse for not knowing our own past. We need to challenge inaccurate assertions about our policies, about our past and about war itself. And we need to work within our community and state education systems to return balanced, comprehensive history programs to our schools. The unprecedented wealth and power of the United States allows us to afford many things denied to human beings throughout history. But we, the people, cannot afford ignorance.

synthesis
31st October 2007, 04:37
The only thing that distinguishes this article from the rest of the pro-government propaganda is its laughable history of Islamic civilizations which attempts to come across as sympathetic. I mean, "lack of scientific curiosity?" Are you fucking serious?

No, we can't afford ignorance; that's what got America over there in the fuckin' first place. And it's the fuel for the fire of idiots like this author For starters, it is not an insurgency, it's a fucking civil war, that's why we're stuck there. Just because Bill O'Reilly wants you to think that we just have to kill all the bad guys to win, doesn't make it true.

Revolution Until Victory
31st October 2007, 04:48
what a load of utter crap.


Victory is impossible today.

from the imperilaist point of view, of course, "victory" is impossible today and everyday. "Victory" of the imperialists means subjegating the vicitms and ending thier resistance. The only way for the resistance to end is to end the cause-imperialism. In other words, "victory" is imppossible. You can keep cutting a piece of grass from the top over and over again, yet it will always grow up again coz you wouldn't cut it from the root. The only way a piece of gress would stop growing is if you take it out from the root. The only way the resistance would die, thus, imperilaism wins, is when the reason for the resistance is eradicted, which is the imperialists. As long as there is imperilaism there is resistance there is defeat for the imperialist and impossible victory.


Myth No. 1: War doesn't change anything.

I actually agree, war can change a lot of things and is many times a positive thing.


Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The issue shouldn't be looked at as individual orgnizations of resistance. The issue here is the resistance in itself, not some orgnization that practice it. The imperialist can kill a figher, 100, or an entire orgnization, but the resistance will never die as long as their is imperilaist oppression. In place of the martyred figher, a thousand will spring up.


all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both.

This isn't true.


There's no military solution; only negotiations can solve our problems.

I also agree this is a myth.


When we fight back, we only provoke our enemies.

also agree this is a myth.


Our terrorist problems have been created by the catastrophic failure of Middle Eastern civilization to compete on any front and were exacerbated by the determination of successive U.S. administrations, Democrat and Republican, to pretend that Islamist terrorism was a brief aberration.

lol, what?????


Israel is the Muslim world's excuse for failure, not a reason for it.

"Israel" is the tool of the imperilaist fucks like yourself to devide and control the muslim, Arab, and thirld world.


Even if we didn't support Israel, Islamist extremists would blame us for countless other imagined wrongs, since they fear our freedoms and our culture even more than they do our military.

haahaahaaa


All men and women of conscience must recognize the core difference between Israel and its neighbors: Israel genuinely wants to live in peace, while its genocidal neighbors want Israel erased from the map.

of course "Israel" want to live in peace. In fact, that was the goal of all other racist, settler-colonies. They all wanted to live in peace with out getting annoyed by the masses they enslaved and colonized. Rhodesia wanted to live in peace, without getting attacked by the ZAPU and ZANU, French Algeria wanted to live in peace, without the attacks of the FLN, The European colonizers wanted to live in peace without the attacks of the natives, etc. The colonizer, realizing his crime, would always strive for "peace" by eliminating any resistance from the opressed. No one is denying this.

Yes, its "genocidal neighbors" wante it erased from the map. Damn, how dare them evil savages refuse colonization!!! got to be some children eating, crazy muslims and thier cult of death!


What a joke. A racist complete waste of space and time. Pathetic.

Lynx
31st October 2007, 04:53
More Ayn Rand?

Dean
31st October 2007, 05:08
The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

"Look at those evil terrorists! It's sad that we have to kill them."

This shit is just fucked up. For one, there is no major "difference" in the cost of war or terrorism today. In fact, I would say that, since we aren't dropping bombs on Hiroshima, or bombing in gneral quite as much as we did in Viet Nam, the civilian death toll - aka terrorism, which is primarily comitted by western imperialist states - has been reduced. The greatest terrorist attack in the history of mankind was meant to scare a civilian population into submission by intentionally killing random civilians in huge quantity - in Hiroshima.

Furthermore, this is attempting to promote the concept of culture warfare. We aren't fighting religion, terrorists or even insurgents, as the author would have us believe; we are fighting the Iraqi people (and arabs in general).

This type of xenophobic jingoism just makes me sick.

EDIT: And next time, post the source if not the whole article:

We're in trouble. We're in danger of losing more wars. Our troops haven't forgotten how to fight. We've never had better men and women in uniform. But our leaders and many of our fellow Americans no longer grasp what war means or what it takes to win.

Thanks to those who have served in uniform, we've lived in such safety and comfort for so long that for many Americans sacrifice means little more than skipping a second trip to the buffet table.

Two trends over the past four decades contributed to our national ignorance of the cost, and necessity, of victory. First, the most privileged Americans used the Vietnam War as an excuse to break their tradition of uniformed service. Ivy League universities once produced heroes. Now they resist Reserve Officer Training Corps representation on their campuses.

Yet, our leading universities still produce a disproportionate number of U.S. political leaders. The men and women destined to lead us in wartime dismiss military service as a waste of their time and talents. Delighted to pose for campaign photos with our troops, elected officials in private disdain the military. Only one serious presidential aspirant in either party is a veteran, while another presidential hopeful pays as much for a single haircut as I took home in a month as an Army private.

Second, we've stripped in-depth U.S. history classes out of our schools. Since the 1960s, one history course after another has been cut, while the content of those remaining focuses on social issues and our alleged misdeeds. Dumbed-down textbooks minimize the wars that kept us free. As a result, ignorance of the terrible price our troops had to pay for freedom in the past creates absurd expectations about our present conflicts. When the media offer flawed or biased analyses, the public lacks the knowledge to make informed judgments.

This combination of national leadership with no military expertise and a population that hasn't been taught the cost of freedom leaves us with a government that does whatever seems expedient and a citizenry that believes whatever's comfortable. Thus, myths about war thrive.

...(The above follows)
And here's the Shitty Right Wing Rag (http://www.legion.org/vision/currentevents/2007/10/12_myths_of_21stcentury_war.html) from which this fecal juggernaut was pinched.

Publius
31st October 2007, 05:16
I love this type of article, just because of how bullshit it is:

"Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win."

:lol:

What brilliant argumentation. It's almost like their statements are...tautologies.

pusher robot
31st October 2007, 06:21
The greatest terrorist attack in the history of mankind was meant to scare a civilian population into submission by intentionally killing random civilians in huge quantity - in Hiroshima.

Why not the Firebombing of Tokyo? More people actually died in that attack.

Schrödinger's Cat
31st October 2007, 07:48
Here's another continuity: most aggressive conflicts are due to previous aggressive conflicts.

Once someone stops this chain we can move on.

ComradeR
31st October 2007, 09:39
This is a ridiculous imperialist, nationalist, and racist joke, it even quotes Nathan Bedford Forrest for fucks sake! Capitalist Lawyer you are a very sad deluded individual if you believe bullshit like this.

Why not the Firebombing of Tokyo? More people actually died in that attack.
True.

synthesis
31st October 2007, 10:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 01:39 am
This is a ridiculous imperialist, nationalist, and racist joke, it even quotes Nathan Bedford Forrest for fucks sake!
Christ, I didn't even notice that. Those words ("War means fighting, and fighting means killing") are particularly chilling in the light of the Fort Pillow massacre, where battle accounts state that Forrest ordered his men to murder hundreds of black Union soldiers who had peacefully surrendered.

I don't even want to go off on a rant about how this mentality is alive and well in the U.S. military, but this is pretty serious. It would be nice if there was some sort of intermediate step between restriction and banning. Maybe we could restrict CL to the Religion sub-forum? ;)

Dean
31st October 2007, 12:19
Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 31, 2007 05:21 am

The greatest terrorist attack in the history of mankind was meant to scare a civilian population into submission by intentionally killing random civilians in huge quantity - in Hiroshima.

Why not the Firebombing of Tokyo? More people actually died in that attack.
I was referring to a single act. It's a lot easier than bringing up all the major bombing campaigns, etc. - I think Hiroshima had more casualties than Nagtasaki, but I could be wrong.

Demogorgon
31st October 2007, 12:41
Well then, what is stopping you? If you believe this crap go and get yourself killed in iraq and save us the bother of having to put up with you. I hear the army is pretty keen for more cannon fodder-I mean heroic soldiers willing to put their lifes ont he line for freedom :lol:

Jazzratt
31st October 2007, 13:11
Jesus fucking christ, how much more racist/national chauvinistic do you want it?


The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

I can just imagine this guy writing this with absolute relish.


Certainly, many humans would rather be good than bad. But if we're unwilling to fight the fraction of humanity that's evil, armed and determined to subjugate the rest, we'll face even grimmer conflicts.

The enemy is evil, just look at their brown skin and refusal to bow down to our imperial hegemony. Fuckers.

Makes this bit all the more ironic:


When dealing with bullies, either in the schoolyard or in a global war, the opposite is true: if you don't fight back, you encourage your enemy to behave more viciously.

:lol: Yep, the enormous imperial power sure is a victim of international bullying, rather than - I don't know - the people currently in its iron grip. Fuck that.


The point may come at which we have to accept that Iraqis are so determined to destroy their own future

Damn right we can't trust those filthy ragheads to act in their own interests.


Israel is the Muslim world's excuse for failure, not a reason for it.

Failure?


The collapse of once great Middle Eastern civilizations has been under way for more than five centuries, and the region became a backwater before the United States became a country.

Who the fuck wrote this piece of crap? Billy-Joe-Bob McRacist-Hick? "Them ay-rab camel jockays sure lives in a backwater, hyup.".

Don't worry that wasn't the only bullshit in the article, I'm a huge fan of this part:


It's an anomaly of today's Western world that privileged individuals feel more sympathy for dictators, mass murderers and terrorists - consider the irrational protests against Guantanamo - than they do for their victims.

Because it reminds me of exactly how much of an ignorant dick this guy is. He makes a claim that "privileged individuals" (read: anyone, regardless of privilege that doesn't agree with reckless imperialism) have sympathy for dictators, mass murderers and terrorists. How does he support his claim? Simply by citing the fact that people have protested against America's little off-coast circus of human-rights violations, a place that has already counted a goodly number of innocents (well, they were Looking Arabic In A Public Place, I suppose.) amongst its victims. Just ask any number of the British, Canadian, French and so on citizens currently locked up without charge (Being Brown With Intent, perhaps?).

Another delectable slice of this ignorant babble for your enjoyment:


Attempts to try such monsters in a court of law turn into mockeries that only provide public platforms for their hate speech, which the global media is delighted to broadcast.

Yep, the global media is part of the terrorist threat. Anyone else find it chilling that this bloke feels that we shouldn't even pretend to act in a just fashion (with courts and trials) but instead go straight for the wholesale killing?

Speaking of which:


Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?

No, it turned you into the beasts that dropped a fucking nuclear weapon on a country prepared to surrender.


Now Iraq is al-Qaeda's Vietnam, not ours.

Al-Qaeda didn't exist until after 9/11 and they certainly don't exist in Iraq.

Finally I leave you with this thought, because I can't post it just once given that it's possibly both the scariest and most rage-inducing thing I've read:


The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

It seems matter of fact but I can't help but think "Blood for the Blood God. Skulls for the Skull Throne." is this guy's favourite mantra.

Bilan
31st October 2007, 13:27
Al-Qaeda didn't exist until after 9/11 and they certainly don't exist in Iraq.

Apparently, according to my school, and this American documentary we watched in History, Al Quada (I'm so sick of the different spelling for that; WHAT IS IT?!) was actually formed out of the remaining rebels from the Afgan War (I think that's what it was called?) and that it had formed a few years before 9/11.
A key period, apparently, was when Saudi Arabia asked America, rather than Islamic Rebels, to defend their Kingdom, which apparently pissed off Osama and so on...and yeah.
bottomline is, are you sure it was formed after 9/11?

Jazzratt
31st October 2007, 13:46
Originally posted by Proper Tea is [email protected] 31, 2007 12:27 pm

Al-Qaeda didn't exist until after 9/11 and they certainly don't exist in Iraq.

Apparently, according to my school, and this American documentary we watched in History, Al Quada (I'm so sick of the different spelling for that; WHAT IS IT?!) was actually formed out of the remaining rebels from the Afgan War (I think that's what it was called?) and that it had formed a few years before 9/11.
A key period, apparently, was when Saudi Arabia asked America, rather than Islamic Rebels, to defend their Kingdom, which apparently pissed off Osama and so on...and yeah.
bottomline is, are you sure it was formed after 9/11?
I'm fairly sure, although I could be wrong. The name was originally used by a terroist arrested way back when for a fictional organisation he'd made up to save his own bacon.

There was a documentary I picked that up from it was either this one (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6767730789700664698&q=Documentary++Why+we+fight&total=424&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1) or another one by the BBC with a name that currently escapes me but had a lot to do with how the government exaggerates threats to create fear. Something like that anyway.

Demogorgon
31st October 2007, 14:27
The name Al Quaeda has been doing the rounds for a number of years now. It refers to a movement rather than an organisation though. The thought that Al Quaeda is some unified organisation under central leadership is absurd. Though apparently most do regard Bin laden as a spiritual leader.

It is a pretty wide ranging movement as it happens, including a mish mash of terrorists, businessmen with a fondness for money laundering, charitable organisations (yes really, groups affiliated with Al Quaeda do earthquake relief believe it or not) and so on.

So while it has existend for some time now, it was not then, and is not now some organisation that can be fought or defeated. It is simply a name that a group with the appropriate outlook can claim to follow.

On another note, can we use remorseless bloodshed to shut up Capitalist Lawyer?

ComradeR
31st October 2007, 14:39
Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?
You know it's actually ironic that he brings up the Philippines, apparently this person knows nothing about the Philippine-American War. The brutality of the US colonizers against the Philippine people was easily on par with (and even at times worse then) things like the Bataan Death March.

Al-Qaeda didn't exist until after 9/11 and they certainly don't exist in Iraq.

If Al-Qaeda did exist as a organization before it was a small inconsequential group not even worthy of mention, the US just inflated the image of it in order to sow fear in the US people to justify it's imperial expansion in the mid-east.

hajduk
31st October 2007, 15:37
do you remember when they ask Albert Einstein what kind of whepaon will be used in W.W.III?
he answered
i dont know the answer about W.W.III but i know the answer about W.W. IV
the wheapon will they use in W.W. IV will be pieces of rocks becouse nothing will left after W.W.III

Kwisatz Haderach
31st October 2007, 16:29
Originally posted by Capitalist Lawyer+October 31, 2007 05:19 am--> (Capitalist Lawyer @ October 31, 2007 05:19 am) In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good. [/b]
I love it how they admit that the role of the United States today is similar to the role of the British Empire in the 18th century.

American reactionaries inch ever closer to openly proclaiming the American Empire. They've already got the part about America's divine mission to "civilize" the world, now the only thing they have to do is stop pretending to support democracy and start saying that the savages aren't fit to govern themselves.


Originally posted by Bloodlust+--> (Bloodlust)The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.[/b]
In other words, "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."


A bit of old British imperialism rears its ugly [email protected]
Passive resistance only works when directed against rule-of-law states, such as the core English-speaking nations.

...and a few paragraphs further down
Attempts to try such monsters in a court of law turn into mockeries that only provide public platforms for their hate speech, which the global media is delighted to broadcast.
So much for the "rule-of-law states."


The greatest immorality is for the United States to lose a war.
It's amazing how blatantly fascist remarks such as this one go unnoticed. So let me get this straight: Morality is defined as American domination and power. The subjection of the entire world to American interests should be the primary goal of all patriotic Americans. But that's not expansionist or imperialistic at all, because, unlike former empires, America really does have freedom and justice on its side and Americans really are the master race. :rolleyes:


Its social and economic structures, its values, its neglect of education, its lack of scientific curiosity, the indolence of its ruling classes and its inability to produce a single modern state that served its people all guaranteed that, as the West's progress accelerated, the Middle East would fall ever farther behind.
Ah, here we go - the savages are not fit to govern themselves! :rolleyes: I knew it would come up eventually.

synthesis
31st October 2007, 21:43
They've already got the part about America's divine mission to "civilize" the world, now the only thing they have to do is stop pretending to support democracy and start saying that the savages aren't fit to govern themselves.

The genius of neo-colonialism is that they don't need to.

Cmde. Slavyanski
1st November 2007, 06:20
This may very well be one of the stupidest, most ignorant things I have ever seen. I am floored. If I fail to fully castigate this tripe, it is only because I am at a loss for words.


Originally posted by Bullshit article+--> (Bullshit article)12 Myths of 21st-Century War

Myth No. 1: War doesn't change anything.

This campus slogan contradicts all of human history. Over thousands of years, war has been the last resort - and all too frequently the first resort - of tribes, religions, dynasties, empires, states and demagogues driven by grievance, greed or a heartless quest for glory. No one believes that war is a good thing, but it is sometimes necessary. We need not agree in our politics or on the manner in which a given war is prosecuted, but we can't pretend that if only we laid down our arms all others would do the same.[/b]


WHO is saying war doesn't change anything? This is a big strawman the author is using to pretend that he has common sense.


Originally posted by Bullshit article+--> (Bullshit article)
Wars, in fact, often change everything. Who would argue that the American Revolution, our Civil War or World War II changed nothing? Would the world be better today if we had been pacifists in the face of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan?[/b]

Luckily, Communists defeated Nazi Germany, allowing this capitalist retard the FREEDOM to write that.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

But of one thing we may be certain: a U.S. defeat in any war is a defeat not only for freedom, but for civilization. Our enemies believe that war can change the world. And they won't be deterred by bumper stickers.

Um...no. Sorry. USA does not equal "freedom" and "civilization". In fact for many people in the world it is the exact opposite.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.

Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don't need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

This writer clearly knows little about the military and military strategy. If you want victory, you have to have clear, attainable goals. Your war cannot be based on lies. You have to be able to state what "victory" means, and mouthing some word like Free-duhm and democrassy doesn't cut it.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

And you can't win if you won't fight. We're at the start of a violent struggle that will ebb and flow for decades, yet our current generation of leaders, in and out of uniform, worries about hurting the enemy's feelings.

Yeah, let's just fight for no apparent reason until we get that "victory." This guy has obviously never heard a shot fired in anger.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

One of the tragedies of our involvement in Iraq is that while we did a great thing by removing Saddam Hussein, we tried to do it on the cheap. It's an iron law of warfare that those unwilling to pay the butcher's bill up front will pay it with compound interest in the end. We not only didn't want to pay that bill, but our leaders imagined that we could make friends with our enemies even before they were fully defeated. Killing a few hundred violent actors like Moqtada al-Sadr in 2003 would have prevented thousands of subsequent American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. We started something our national leadership lacked the guts to finish.

Nothing better than an ignorant layman lecturing the world on military strategy. In fact his little "iron law" of warfare happens to contradict hundreds of years of military science, most notably Clauswitz.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Despite our missteps, victory looked a great deal less likely in the early months of 1942 than it does against our enemies today. Should we have surrendered after the fall of the Philippines? Today's opinionmakers and elected officials have lost their grip on what it takes to win. In the timeless words of Nathan Bedford Forrest, "War means fighting, and fighting means killing."

And in the words of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it."

Who invaded the Phillipines(yes we all know it was a colony, but that's not the point)?



Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions. Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

Nobody says that insurgencies can never be defeated.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 5: When we fight back, we only provoke our enemies.

When dealing with bullies, either in the schoolyard or in a global war, the opposite is true: if you don't fight back, you encourage your enemy to behave more viciously.

Passive resistance only works when directed against rule-of-law states, such as the core English-speaking nations. It doesn't work where silent protest is answered with a bayonet in the belly or a one-way trip to a political prison. We've allowed far too many myths about the "innate goodness of humanity" to creep up on us. Certainly, many humans would rather be good than bad. But if we're unwilling to fight the fraction of humanity that's evil, armed and determined to subjugate the rest, we'll face even grimmer conflicts.

Wannabe Captain Retard forgot that America attacked Iraq, and ergo is not "fighting back".


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 6: Killing terrorists only turns them into martyrs.

Fact No. 6: Killing Civilians turns other civilians into terrorists.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 7: If we fight as fiercely as our enemies, we're no better than them.

Did the bombing campaign against Germany turn us into Nazis? Did dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, as well as millions of Japanese lives, turn us into the beasts who conducted the Bataan Death March?

The author seems very confused at this point, as though America can't be compared with the Nazis because it wasn't National Socialist. This reverses logic- the Nazis are associated with evil because of what they did, not because of their ideology per se. If Nazi ideology somehow didn't lead to aggressive war and genocide, we would probably not be associating them with evil.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

The greatest immorality is for the United States to lose a war.

This folks, is literally a mental illness. It is every bit on par with the thinking of fanatical Islamic fundamentalists. There is nothing moral about America or any other country for that matter. Ironically THIS is precisely the kind of thinking that led to the horrors of Nazi Germany.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 8: The United States is more hated today than ever before.

Those who served in Europe during the Cold War remember enormous, often-violent protests against U.S. policy that dwarfed today's let's-have-fun-on-a-Sunday-afternoon rallies. Older readers recall the huge ban-the-bomb, pro-communist demonstrations of the 1950s and the vast seas of demonstrators filling the streets of Paris, Rome and Berlin to protest our commitment to Vietnam. Imagine if we'd had 24/7 news coverage of those rallies. I well remember serving in Germany in the wake of our withdrawal from Saigon, when U.S. soldiers were despised by the locals - who nonetheless were willing to take our money - and terrorists tried to assassinate U.S. generals.

This guy has most likely never set foot in Europe.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

The fashionable anti-Americanism of the chattering classes hasn't stopped the world from seeking one big green card. As I've traveled around the globe since 9/11, I've found that below the government-spokesman/professional-radical level, the United States remains the great dream for university graduates from Berlin to Bangalore to Bogota.

Again, despite the author's claims, he has most likely never travelled outside the country. The main reason why anyone seeks a life in America is either:

A: Mythology from Hollywood and Madison Avenue, this covers some Central and Eastern Europeans.

B: America has fucked up so much of the world that people have no choice but to immigrate, preferably to the country that is thriving off their misery.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Myth No. 9: Our invasion of Iraq created our terrorist problems.

This claim rearranges the order of events, as if the attacks of 9/11 happened after Baghdad fell. Our terrorist problems have been created by the catastrophic failure of Middle Eastern civilization to compete on any front and were exacerbated by the determination of successive U.S. administrations, Democrat and Republican, to pretend that Islamist terrorism was a brief aberration. Refusing to respond to attacks, from the bombings in Beirut to Khobar Towers, from the first attack on the Twin Towers to the near-sinking of the USS Cole, we allowed our enemies to believe that we were weak and cowardly. Their unchallenged successes served as a powerful recruiting tool.

Again, Sparky the Wondertard has forgotten an important little fact: IRAQ AND THE BAATHIST REGIME HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11. This argument is also a strawman because nobody is saying that Iraq is the reason for the terrorism problem. They have said that Iraq has WORSENED the terrorist problem, for reasons that are factual and verifiable.


Originally posted by Bullshit article

Did our mistakes on the ground in Iraq radicalize some new recruits for terror? Yes. But imagine how many more recruits there might have been and the damage they might have inflicted on our homeland had we not responded militarily in Afghanistan and then carried the fight to Iraq. Now Iraq is al-Qaeda's Vietnam, not ours.

Iraq is Al-Qaeda's Vietnam. Sure.


Bullshit [email protected]


Myth No. 11: It's all Israel's fault. Or the popular Washington corollary: "The Saudis are our friends."

Israel is the Muslim world's excuse for failure, not a reason for it. Even if we didn't support Israel, Islamist extremists would blame us for countless other imagined wrongs, since they fear our freedoms and our culture even more than they do our military. All men and women of conscience must recognize the core difference between Israel and its neighbors: Israel genuinely wants to live in peace, while its genocidal neighbors want Israel erased from the map.

As for the mad belief that the Saudis are our friends, it endures only because the Saudis have spent so much money on both sides of the aisle in Washington. Saudi money continues to subsidize anti-Western extremism, to divide fragile societies, and encourage hatred between Muslims and all others. Saudi extremism has done far more damage to the Middle East than Israel ever did. The Saudis are our enemies.

Ok, I agree with the Saudi thing in principle.


Bullshit article

Myth No. 12: The Middle East's problems are all America's fault.

Muslim extremists would like everyone to believe this, but it just isn't true. The collapse of once great Middle Eastern civilizations has been under way for more than five centuries, and the region became a backwater before the United States became a country. For the first century and a half of our national existence, our relations with the people of the Middle East were largely beneficent and protective, notwithstanding our conflict with the Barbary Pirates in North Africa. But Islamic civilization was on a downward trajectory that could not be arrested. Its social and economic structures, its values, its neglect of education, its lack of scientific curiosity, the indolence of its ruling classes and its inability to produce a single modern state that served its people all guaranteed that, as the West's progress accelerated, the Middle East would fall ever farther behind. The Middle East has itself to blame for its problems.

None of us knows what our strategic future holds, but we have no excuse for not knowing our own past. We need to challenge inaccurate assertions about our policies, about our past and about war itself. And we need to work within our community and state education systems to return balanced, comprehensive history programs to our schools. The unprecedented wealth and power of the United States allows us to afford many things denied to human beings throughout history. But we, the people, cannot afford ignorance.

This last bit is simply too stupid to answer in detail at the moment. I'll consider doing a more detailed write-up on my blog. I suddenly feel dirty after reading this.

Dr Mindbender
1st November 2007, 21:30
wars divide the international working class.

This is NOT a myth.

Use your pseudo intellectualism to backflip out of that one pedro.

Dr Mindbender
1st November 2007, 21:52
Also if modern day islamic terrorism isnt a product of western policy then explain why islamic terrorism is practically non-existant and unheard of prior to the mandate against the Palestinians?

synthesis
2nd November 2007, 04:24
Yeah, this dude thinks you can just tell any middle-class Muslim that God will give him fresh pussy in Heaven and he'll drive a plane into a building for you. What a jackass.

Dr Mindbender
2nd November 2007, 20:25
...and why were all those countries who got bombed by terrorist cells post Gulf War 2 only the pro-war countries?

I dont recall France, Germany or Italy being bombed&#33; <_< :blink:

Lacrimi de Chiciură
3rd November 2007, 01:33
Myth No. 3: Insurgencies can never be defeated.

Historically, fewer than one in 20 major insurgencies succeeded. Virtually no minor ones survived. In the mid-20th century, insurgencies scored more wins than previously had been the case, but that was because the European colonial powers against which they rebelled had already decided to rid themselves of their imperial possessions.

Right... So if they had already decided to rid themselves of their colonial possessions why did they bother fighting wars that killed millions of people (including tens of thousands of Europeens)?


Even so, more insurgencies were defeated than not, from the Philippines to Kenya to Greece. In the entire 18th century, our war of independence was the only insurgency that defeated a major foreign power and drove it out for good.

The insurgencies we face today are, in fact, more lethal than the insurrections of the past century. We now face an international terrorist insurgency as well as local rebellions, all motivated by religious passion or ethnicity or a fatal compound of both. The good news is that in over 3,000 years of recorded history, insurgencies motivated by faith and blood overwhelmingly failed. The bad news is that they had to be put down with remorseless bloodshed.

In reality, anyone who isn&#39;t a fucking moron, i.e. anyone who isn&#39;t you, Capitalist Lawyer, sees that the resistance in Iraq is one motivated above all by anti-imperialism, demonstrated by the fact that the insurgency is a resistance against the invasion of and occupation by a foreign imperial military of Iraq.

NorthStarRepublicML
3rd November 2007, 07:38
Apparently, according to my school, and this American documentary we watched in History, Al Quada (I&#39;m so sick of the different spelling for that; WHAT IS IT?&#33;) was actually formed out of the remaining rebels from the Afgan War (I think that&#39;s what it was called?) and that it had formed a few years before 9/11.

from wikipedia:

Arabic, al-Qaeda (القاعدة al-qā&#39;ida) has four syllables, and is pronounced [alˈqɑː.ʕɪ.da]. However, since two of the Arabic consonants in the name (the voiceless uvular plosive[q] and the voiced pharyngeal fricative ) are not phones found in the English language, the closest naturalized English pronunciation would be [ælˈkɑː.i.da]; [ælˈkaɪ.də] and [ælˈkeɪ.də] are also heard. Al-Qaeda&#39;s name can also be transliterated as al-Qaida, al-Qa&#39;ida, el-Qaida, or al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda actually means "The Base" which i always assumed was named for the American Military Base established in Saudi Arabia in the lead up to the Persian Gulf War .... however wikipedia cites an interview in of Osama Bin Laden in which he explains:


The name &#39;al-Qaeda&#39; was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia&#39;s terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.

Ol' Dirty
6th November 2007, 01:32
This article was written by the American Legion, which is “the Veterans’ Largest Service Organization.” (www.legion.com) The organizations’ “Four Pillars of Service” are: “a strong national security; taking care of veterans; mentoring youth; promoting patriotism and honor.” Surprisingly, the author’s (Ralph Peters) strategic analysis of contemporary warfare, in my opinion (mind, I’m no professional), is rather faulty.

12 Myths of 21st-Century War


Myth No. 1: War doesn&#39;t change anything.

I don’t believe that there are too many people who actually advocate that opinion. After looking up the phrase on Google, I only found 485 instances of that phrase occuring in their database, which makes a great deal of sense. Even pacifists acknowledge that war changes something. What anti-war activists usually mean is that war doesn’t make any *positive* net change, which is essentially true. More destruction than creation will result from a war.


Wars, in fact, often change everything. Who would argue that the American Revolution, our Civil War or World War II changed nothing? Would the world be better today if we had been pacifists in the face of Nazi Germany and imperial Japan?

Hypothetically, wouldn’t it have been best if those conflicts had been resolved without war?


Myth No. 2: Victory is impossible today.


Victory is always possible, if our nation is willing to do what it takes to win. But victory is, indeed, impossible if U.S. troops are placed under impossible restrictions, if their leaders refuse to act boldly, if every target must be approved by lawyers, and if the American people are disheartened by a constant barrage of negativity from the media. We don&#39;t need generals who pop up behind microphones to apologize for every mistake our soldiers make. We need generals who win.

This war can go on ad infinitium; it&#39;s not a war consisting of important pitched battles, but of prolonged, limited skirmishes. The guerrilla movements in Afgahanistan and Iraq can&#39;t beat the U.S. in an open battle and they know it. Hell, *no one* can beat the U.S. in a conventional war. But the guerrillas are smart people. They&#39;re not fighting our fight; they&#39;re fighting their own. Hitting and running, fighting in urban environments, etc. The ultimate force multiplier is fighting for your home. The British couldn&#39;t keep us down here, and we can&#39;t keep the Iraqi&#39;s down there.


Myth No. 9: Our invasion of Iraq created our terrorist problems.

That&#39;s another strawman. Anti-war activists are saying that the terrorist attacks in Iraq are caused by our invasion, which is totaly true. There were no significant suicide bombings in Iraq before the invasion, and now they occur frequently.

Myth No. 10: If we just leave, the Iraqis will patch up their differences on their own.


The point may come at which we have to accept that Iraqis are so determined to destroy their own future that there&#39;s nothing more we can do. If someone invaded the U.S., we would both be on the streets shooting at them. You&#39;d go berserk too if they told us it was our own fault.