how to save the world maybe

[lavisod]

my dream of building a particaptory society is based on grassroots organizing through volunteering. I have planned out how this new spiritual society could replace consumerism and capitalism. We wouldn't need money, private property, or representative politics. We could create a direct democracy using the internet and give communities the control over the land. Imagine a internet based democracy where everyone can deliver the next presidential speech. This new utopia would grow their own food in gardens. Remember God gave us a Garden in the begining. If we want to save the world we must perserve it. Capitalism seeks to exploit and profit of it and us. We are in desperate need now of a drastic driven harmonious intervention. Are you willing to save the world or stop mass extinction from occuring as it has unchecked. Remember that you must start low to climb a mountain. We must begin all over again in the garden.

your skepticism and cynicism are a result of being disenfrancised from the political system. Lets face it, only the elite can run for high office. Well dont you think a direct democracy could empower us and renew the creative spirit of the American people? Why do you think its ok to bash an alternative to capitalism and consumerism as if the worlds not being destroyed by blind arrogance and ignorance? A utopia could work and it has to work if we make a transparent government than all can equally particapate in. We have to get rid of private property so that the land can be optimally managed by consensus from those that live there. With this plan, is not a condition of slave wagery or the creation of false identities with consumer goods. Instead we would start a realtionship with the plant kingdom and animal kingdom by praying and loving our plants. Here is something we havent tried and it could systematically remove hatred and war from the forfront of society forever. why live in a system based on competition when we can actually cooperate and let love be the guiding force?

i have pointed out that the cause of our problems is this being a man made world. the solution is simple; end capitalism and consumerism and replace it with a particapatory society based on volunteerism. Begin a new relationship with nature that will teach us how emotionally intellengent she really is. Are we forgetting that god created the plant and animal kingdoms? nature is much more emotionally intelligent than we are. Nature isn't unconcious, its concious. Only by loving nature will we begin to see less mental health problems and less global warming. The clean technologies are already designed, it just takes money to spend us there. Wouldn't u rather get rid of money altogether, and as an empowered society, use volunteer groups to manufacture all the clean technology our society needs? With a cause as great as saving the world, millions will work hard to get us there. We are the generation that was born to solve these problems. The elite are hellbent on making things worse. So lets get rid of elite control, create a direct democracy and begin in the garden as Adam and Eve.

[Eleftherios]

1. How would you go about convincing people to join your utopia?

2. I suggest you read this (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm)

3. I don't want to get into any religious argument here, as that belongs in the Religion sub-forum, but your idea of nature as a conscious, living being is not very convincing, to say the least. Perhaps you could provide support for this idea, and a debate could start from there.

[AAFCE]

I would like to see this Garden "God" gave me.. (Non religious dispute)

I would like a nice apple right now.

[spartan]

You cant seriously take this God shit as truth can you lavisod?

You do know that Jesus was a paedophile dont you?

[lavisod]

ok you guys got me. maybe the biblical version of gods garden was made up but i dont doubt the existence of god. have u read conversations with god by neile walsh. the guy actually was able to channle god in a real and enlightening conversation. he clearly didnt make it up. its so full of great ideas that god inputs that you will also be convinced god is saying this. god denounces christianity and says hes not a condemning god. all of us go to heaven and theres no hell. and jesus did come into my heart, it was the greatest feeling i ever experienced. but i'm not a christian and i dont like christians very much. their all close minded which which is wierd because they were so gulible to believe the crap told in the bible. i wont read the thing. lol

put this argument aside, forget that i even brought god up. nature is emotionally intelligent. i get spiritually attacked by crows everyday for masturbating. now they wont let me masturbate without them coming to my house and crowing, which causes sudden pains in my chest that are hard to feel out. it feels like needles in my heart. i have a special technique for using chi to flow through my chakras that makes me concious of the pain and over power it with my will. i press between my eyebrows for 30 seconds and use my awareness to feel my upperchest. when i feel chi flow from my third eye to my chest, i say tai chi un and chant it conciously feeling my body because the words each resound in a different place in the body. the tai chi un chant moves chi into my stomach. i use this technique every day and i am under constant spirtual attack for going 4 years without any girl friends. i learned this technique from various teachings and in the process of self discovery.

i also read a book called the magic of findhorn. its a place in scottland that has demonstrated interconnectedness and cooperation with the plant kingdom. by praying to plants in harsh weather conditions and sandy soils, they have demonstrated that love can make plants grow bigger than any crops grown in the world. the performed lots of experiments to show that the plants were listening to their prayers. one case, they told 3 bushes and not the others that they would have to move them in three days. on the third day, he pulled up the 3 bushes with one hand and the other bushes he couldnt pull up with 2 hands. for somereason the roots retracted from the ground and listened to the thoughts and prayers of the community. the plants also talked back to the people that were praying and said remarkable things. the book is really great.

now i believe as u that consumerism and capitalism are destroying the world. the problem is communism and socialism have always persued money just the same. we need to end money which would end the elite control. we need to use the internet to make a think tank and we need to practice consensus in our communites where the power belongs by and of the people.

as for who will participate in this utopia, i can only guess. i have to provide a solution or alternative to capitalism and consumerism that is compelling and exciting.

[Colonello Buendia]

You can't actually believe that!

the guy that had a conversation with "GOD" HAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM.

Anyway a utopia means everyone would be happy, in a democracy the majority is satisfied therefore how would you decide on things?

There would be atleast one person on every commune with different ideas, they would not be happy with the result of the vote. That's why utopias don't exist

[lavisod]

the guy that had a conversation with "GOD" HAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM. lol he thought the same thing. he feared that people would react this way.

as for the book conversations with god, i realized immediatly that it was God and i find this book the most inspirational, insightful, and compelling book of our day in age. nobody could simply make this stuff up. you should read the book for yourself if your open to that path for self discovery. it really doesnt matter if you read it at all or believe in god. he doesnt require anything. god has no needs. he doesnt want your worship. you have free will and god doesnt care what you do. God experiences himself through you. forget i brought it up.

one of you said that people will always disagree so some will be unhappy. in a utopia, people are aloud to feel as they choose. but through the process of consensus, the best ideas supported would be selfless, of for and by the people. thus not actually mob rule, but more enlightend use of our time and energy to create the best reality. we can perfect anything if we will to perfect it. even ourselves are in a process of perfecting.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

Don't even bother trying to brainwash me or my fellow comrades into believing this bullshit you're speaking of.

"Utopia" doesn't exist, neither did Adam and Eve or some magical garden-- or "God" for that matter-- it's complete nonsense to even try to discuss this.

lavisod, regardless of religion, "god" and the such-- "utopia" is not attainable.

Communist society is attainable-- because it comes into existence through the attaining of many stages-- and that doesn't just come out of nowhere- it comes out of eliminating the source of that problem. you can't just run off to some nonexistent fairy tale land and hope god will end it for you-- that will never happen-- you have to eliminate the causes of the exploitation-- the bourgeois state, the ruling class,e tc-- you have to take steps to eliminate the structure of capitalist society-- these are logical foundations for the formation of communist society-- not even comparable to some "utopia"-- what you are suggesting is ultimately impossible-- you can't just get rid of the state and expect everyone to get along-- you have to eliminate the causes of the conditions existent under capitalism-- i think that in itself is quite evident.

[lavisod]

i'm not attempting to brain wash you, if i was i'd use fear ideologies and appeal to your lowest motiviations. but how do u explain this, jesus talked about god a lot and when i prayed for jesus to come into my heart he did and it was the greatest feeling i ever had. i am not a christian either nor would i want to be.

communism failed because it pursued money. instead we need to tap the creative human potential in an internet think tank of by for the people. we wouldnt be an anarchy without money, the community and nation would be experience interconnectedness with no middle men or no hierarchy.

i agree with you that we need to get rid of capitalism and consumerism. one revolution thats happening is called particapatory economics, u can learn about it at znet, where writers like noam chomsky are.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Jeeze, you would think someone had their foot stepped on. If you don't believe in God just take the post as an allegory. Utopian and scientific socialists have the same goal in mind.

[Tatarin]

Imagine a internet based democracy where everyone can deliver the next presidential speech.

Why the need for presidents? Communities can make their own choices. And we already have, well sort of, presidential speeches on the internet in forms of recorded videos and all.


We must begin all over again in the garden.

Why must we begin all over again?


Well dont you think a direct democracy could empower us and renew the creative spirit of the American people?

Thus, we must struggle for communism, which is democracy in it's most likely pure form.


i have pointed out that the cause of our problems is this being a man made world.

No, you have pointed out that the problems of the world is of capitalism, which is true. This is a man made world because it has always been that way.


Only by loving nature will we begin to see less mental health problems and less global warming.

Less global warming can be achieved if we start to consume accordingly as to what humans need, and to do that we must first achieve a viable production system.


We are the generation that was born to solve these problems.

I really hope we are.


its so full of great ideas that god inputs that you will also be convinced god is saying this.

And this information is not in the public because? What? We must buy the eternal truth?

The implication of this, if it is true, is huge. We're not talking about "I believe" or "I experienced" - this is a conversation with a god! This is like direct communication with extraterrestrials! This is like waking up and knowing what is can be known about everything, everywhere and in every time (including the future)!

Again - through a book, this man is possibly preventing mankind from knowing the truth.


the problem is communism and socialism have always persued money just the same.

Wrong. Communism is a society in where there are no money.


nobody could simply make this stuff up.

Why not? Can you read in all languages known to man? Have you read everything ever written by man? Every idea? My point here is that you can make up anything. There are probably tons of natives in dozens of countries with ancient legends and tales, any of them could come tomorrow as the new spiritual thing.

You only have to know where to look, and how to make it sound credible in the ears of westerners.


communism failed because it pursued money.

Where did communism pursue money? Before you say that communism is this and that you need to understand what it is. It seems that you think that communism is when a leader calls himself a communist, his party communist, and his country "people's".

Also, communism never failed because it was never implemented anywhere in modern time. It is a society which you almost describe - no money, people working for themselves and direct democracy.


we wouldnt be an anarchy without money,

Anarchism is a system without money.


the community and nation would be experience interconnectedness with no middle men or no hierarchy.

But you see, there is still the nation. If no one controls the nation, what is there to stop another nation from invading it?


where writers like noam chomsky are.

You are aware that Chomsky share our beliefs, right?

[Leo]

I think this thread should be moved so I'll move it to learning which seems to me as the most appropriate forum.

[lavisod]

ty tatrin for helping me to see where u are coming from. i get a lot of fear based reasoning from people but you caught my attention as somewhat level headed and reasonable. i did an essay on marx in highschool and learned a great deal. i have always loved communism but to change america in to communist is practically insain. so in effect i had to come up with the word utopia and describe it in such a way that it would still seem compelling and exciting and new.

also the reason his book,conversations with god, isnt free is because he broke his neck in a car accident and than was forced to be homeless for a year. he had noone to turn to and than when he got on his feet again and finally could get a job, he lost his job. he than wrote an angry letter to god and layed down when all of a sudden he awoke to hearing god speaking to him. so he started writing it down and thats how it became a book. you can understand that he needed the money and cared about his survival.

tatarin i agree with most u said and found it enlightening.

[Tatarin]

i have always loved communism but to change america in to communist is practically insain.

It isn't insane. It may look so, one of the reasons is the media, how they just love to brag about how much they know about communism. This isn't just the US, it is everywhere. And the collapse of the Soviet Union gave them the perfect reason to say that communism is "dead".

So not only did they destroy any discussion about communism with the argument of the "totalitarian" Soviet Union.

All the different splits on the left is not helping much either, but at least it shows that, contrary to the media machine that communism is about people being exact the same, we are much more different and free thinking than any other person on the right.

Does it feel hopeless sometimes? Sure it does. Progressive movements probably always felt hopelessnes at one point in their struggles. Take your example with nature. How can a group of environmentalists stand up to international conglomerates (who not only pollute and destroy for profit, but does it perfectly legal)?

The point I am making here is that education is key to progress.


also the reason his book,conversations with god, isnt free is because he broke his neck in a car accident and than was forced to be homeless for a year. he had noone to turn to and than when he got on his feet again and finally could get a job, he lost his job. he than wrote an angry letter to god and layed down when all of a sudden he awoke to hearing god speaking to him. so he started writing it down and thats how it became a book. you can understand that he needed the money and cared about his survival.

Yes, I know that story. Now he is up to nine books. How many other people have been angry at god, how many have lost his or her faith because of it? Why is this guy so special?

He also stated on Larry King Live:

However, in the interview with Larry King, Walsch admitted that he couldn’t be sure that it was God speaking and that the books could have been the product of his own subconscious.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversations_With_God)

In other words, it could just as well be a demon who talked to him and persuading him to believe that there is no hell ("the best trick the devil came up with was to make people believe that he didn't exist"), or an alien having fun with us less-intelligent earthlings.

Or it could be his subcounscious.

In the same source, you can also find that his ideas aren't new.

Anyways, he was talking with another being, claiming to be god. Why not go to the scientific community and conduct tests? I can't say I know Americans well, but it seems that they have a special something that makes them more superstitious. They can easily buy books claiming everything from 9/11 inside job to reptilians controlling the world, but look away when it comes to the simplest piece of evidence, or even a skeptic questioning their logic.

[Comrade Nadezhda]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31, 2007 06:36 pm

i have always loved communism but to change america in to communist is practically insain.

It isn't insane. It may look so, one of the reasons is the media, how they just love to brag about how much they know about communism. This isn't just the US, it is everywhere. And the collapse of the Soviet Union gave them the perfect reason to say that communism is "dead".

So not only did they destroy any discussion about communism with the argument of the "totalitarian" Soviet Union.

All the different splits on the left is not helping much either, but at least it shows that, contrary to the media machine that communism is about people being exact the same, we are much more different and free thinking than any other person on the right.

Does it feel hopeless sometimes? Sure it does. Progressive movements probably always felt hopelessnes at one point in their struggles. Take your example with nature. How can a group of environmentalists stand up to international conglomerates (who not only pollute and destroy for profit, but does it perfectly legal)?

The point I am making here is that education is key to progress.
Yes, the proletariat needs to be educated in regards to the conditions existent in capitalist society and under the bourgeois state for there to be class-consciousness and any movement towards attaining communist society. Attaining communism in the United States is not impossible, but it takes revolutionary effort-- it takes for there to be significant revolutionary movement and for that movement to be organized properly. The proletariat needs to become aware of the conditions existent in capitalist society-- that is essential to any movement to be taken toward communism.

In regards to the United States-- that's why there is necessity for the formation of class-consciousness-- so that it is possible for there to be movement against the exploitive forces existent-- otherwise that can never happen when there is so much bullshit on the media and blind sheep running around saying how bad communism is and that millions of people died from communism and bullshit like that which the bourgeois media claims is true. not only are Americans misinformed about communism but they are misinformed about revolutionary movement in general and the necessity for it-- including the exploitive conditions existent in capitalist society (ex. the bourgeois state).

That is why class consciousness is a necessity, which cannot occur without revolutionary movement- and it also cannot occur without proper organization of that movement-- and efforts to educate the working-class of the exploitation existent and how capitalist society is ultimately repressive.

[Colonello Buendia]

This guy Walsch, he got shat on big time he was going insane. there is something called paranoid schizophrenia which explains the conversation.


Anyway back to Utopia. A real Utopia would be great, the Shangri-La f the world. But it cannot be implemented. The key problem we are faced with is that all humans are bastards. yes we are no exception. Fascists and capitalists directly cause the deaths of millions, there is crime all over the world. We leftists condone the eliminating of fascists. we want to kill them. therefore we are all bastards. That is the most compelling argument against a Utopia being created.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by lavisod+October 31, 2007 01:46 pm--> (lavisod @ October 31, 2007 01:46 pm) ty tatrin for helping me to see where u are coming from. i get a lot of fear based reasoning from people but you caught my attention as somewhat level headed and reasonable. i did an essay on marx in highschool and learned a great deal. i have always loved communism but to change america in to communist is practically insain. so in effect i had to come up with the word utopia and describe it in such a way that it would still seem compelling and exciting and new.

also the reason his book,conversations with god, isnt free is because he broke his neck in a car accident and than was forced to be homeless for a year. he had noone to turn to and than when he got on his feet again and finally could get a job, he lost his job. he than wrote an angry letter to god and layed down when all of a sudden he awoke to hearing god speaking to him. so he started writing it down and thats how it became a book. you can understand that he needed the money and cared about his survival.

tatarin i agree with most u said and found it enlightening. [/b]
My utopia would be a place where people use capital letters.





CCCP9000
Anyway back to Utopia. A real Utopia would be great, the Shangri-La f the world. But it cannot be implemented.

No matter how you repeat it, he'll refuse to believe it.

[Tatarin]

But it cannot be implemented.

A utopia doesn't necessary mean a world where there is no "evil". Communism will surely have murdurers and other kinds of people, but most crime, centered on private property, would disappear.

[Killer Enigma]

Discussing utopia is as fruitless, pointless, and aimless as masturbation. Rather than doing something in reality, you settle for imagination and simulation.

[Enragé]

the state will crush this before it gets too powerful, and then you'll either be fucked or be forced to make revolution anyway.

[Colonello Buendia]

I would think that though there would still be crime and other nasty shit in a socialist world and later a communist one, it would be better than the shit we're in now but there would be problems.

[Tatarin]

Discussing utopia is as fruitless, pointless, and aimless as masturbation.

How can it be pointless as long as you get something out of it? (+ joke)

After all, we must decide how our society will work.


I would think that though there would still be crime and other nasty shit in a socialist world and later a communist one, it would be better than the shit we're in now but there would be problems.

Yes, the end of private property would be the end of a lot of crime.

[Killer Enigma]

How can it be pointless as long as you get something out of it? (+ joke)
Pointless because at the end of the day, you're only fucking yourself.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Discussing utopia is as fruitless, pointless, and aimless as masturbation.Now that we can lay out, in nearly exact terms, what utopia would be, is it not our responsibility to realize it? History is a constant struggle towards utopia.

[Colonello Buendia]

Valid point, but to achieve Utopia you ould need to give all humans a spine transplant