What are we going to do?

[berlitz23]

Where's the outcry? Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded I'm almost as angry at the American people as I am the president. I think Americans have become apathetic and placid about the whole thing. We need to take action in order to be recognized Congress doesn't listen to us, there has to be something that can be done, I might sound naive, stupid whatever, but i'm convinced in someway we can do something.

[Sam_b]

Where's the outcry?

Err....on the hundreds of demonstrations that have taken place in America?


Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded

And also the 1 million dead Iraqis since the first gulf war.

[Colonello Buendia]

I hate to say it but It's unlikely that the American left can really do much on this one.... I mean America is one the most capitalist and rightist nations in the world. I very much doubt much can be done until the time for rebellion comes.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2007 07:31 pm
Where's the outcry?
There were massive demonstrations just yesterday!

Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded I'm almost as angry at the American people as I am the president.
"We" didn't die nor invade.

If you're going to be angry be angry at the bourgeoisie that fueled the war, keep the average worker living in an alternate fantasy world devoid of any real politics, and the one's the spin the news so that the people recieve false information on how well Iraq is progressing/Iran becoming a threat/terrorists want to kill civilians, etc.

I think Americans have become apathetic and placid about the whole thing.
Can you really blame them when they have the luxury of plenty of entertainment at their hand to keep them distracted and serene?"As long as I'm doing fine I can give a damn about anyone else." -- That's what you'll hear often times.

We need to take action in order to be recognized Congress doesn't listen to us, there has to be something that can be done, I might sound naive, stupid whatever, but i'm convinced in someway we can do something.
Congress has never listened to the people; neither has the president, electoral college, mass media, nor anything not controlled by the American workers.

If you want to do something, get involved with local revolutionary leftist groups and spread out propaganda to get the alternative voice out to the public. Don't expect a convenient 'revolution' without there being revolutionary situation that's at the hands of the majority of the workforce.

The anti-war movement is a good way to get messages out.

[bootleg42]

Where's the outcry?

Plenty. We have an Iraq sticky. We are all against that war.


Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded

I'm sad many people (both United Statian and Iraqi) have died. We leftist have done so much to try to stop it but the U.S. people don't budge. They're living in too much luxury and they are not desparate themselves to do something about that war.


I'm almost as angry at the American people as I am the president.

So am I but any president will not do anything about it. That's part of the bourgeoisie liberal democracy system. We want to change that entirely.


I think Americans have become apathetic and placid about the whole thing.

Again, they're living in luxury (well the overwhelming majority) so they won't really do much. I mean if the U.S. people were living in poverty and this war happened........they would be hell in the streets and revolts all over and a possibility the revolutions we seek.


We need to take action in order to be recognized Congress doesn't listen to us, there has to be something that can be done, I might sound naive, stupid whatever, but i'm convinced in someway we can do something.

If you're going to go "asking the rulers" to change then here is a newflash...........they will not change. They may give LITTLE things to people and it keeps them calm for a while but they will never change.

We look for revolution....meaning that we don't want to have that congress or that stupid liberal democracy system itself. We want worker's councils, workers to own their own means of production, etc. We want a complete 360 change that WE and the workers and the poor carry out themselves, not some wealthy, high status rich guy in a suit making decisions in a congress or in some stupid office.

So stop trying to give those powers "legitimacy" by asking them to stop these things. Get poor people and workers and go take change yourselves while taking down those "powers that be".

[Organic Revolution]

Well the problem with the American public is all the outrage is directed solely through vocal channels, which has been shown to do nothing. The demonstrations against the Iraq war were the biggest in the US's history, and still it happened. What there needs to be is a diversity of tactics, but people seem to complacent to step outside of traditional organizing.

[Faux Real]

The more they protest, the more they're ignored.

True, through the ignoring of them, some may feel it's unnecessary anymore; in the process many more become radicalized by feeling disillusionment with the political parties, government, and the whole system altogether.

[Led Zeppelin]

If you live outside of Iraq the best thing you can do is to organize and participate in demonstrations and protests and wait for the Iraqi people themselves to decide what should be done for themselves; which sooner or later they will do.

[LSD]

Where's the outcry? Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded

I have a better question. Why is it nescessary to distinguish between the four thousand Americans and the hundred some thousand Iraqis that have died?

Are American lives just that much more valuable?

As for "outcry", I think we've seen quite a bit. Polls consistantly show that the majority of Americans now oppose the war, and we've seen some of the biggest demonstrations in US history in the last couple of years.

Not to mention that 2006 congressional elections and the democrats' constant anti-war drum-beating over the the last year.

It hasn't accomplished that much per se, but then wars are a lot like ocean liners, they carry an enormous amount of momentum and take a very long time to slow down or reverse course.

I think it's fair to say that the US will probably begin withdrawing troops in the next couple of years. Politically speaking, it's just getting to unpopular.

All of which is excellent news for the people of Iraq, of course, who are desperate to get this occupation over with. But it's hardly a step forward for American politics.

There's this myth in politics that a shared aim indicates some sort of commonality, it's particularly prevalent among leftists.

You see it when self-declared Marxists express support for groups like the ELF, despite the fact that their politics are in fundamental conflict with Marxism. And you're seeing it here.

Eager leftists desperately want to believe that the growing discontent regarding the Iraq war can translate into an anti-capitalist movement. But the fact is the American people are not angry at the capitalists for rulling over them, they're angry at them for doing it badly.

That's why you quote that figure, "4,000 dead Americans". The "outcry" isn't over the country invaded, the infastructure demolished, the population scattered; it's over the Americans that "had to die" to make it so.

Because believe me, had each of those dead American been substituted for an Iraqi, that is if 4,000 more Iraqis had died, but no American soldiers, George Bush would have an approval rating in the high eighties.

That's why Afghanistan is still a popular war, the American casualty rate has been so much lower. Lots of "arabs" have died, of course, but then that hardly matters does it...


I think Americans have become apathetic and placid about the whole thing.

Good.

That's usually the first step to changing things. Remember, the anti-Vietnam movement emerged from the generation that "Turn on, tuned in, and dropped out". The greatest anti-establishment movement in American history conincided with the greatest period of recreational drug use.

In the 1930s, it coincided with massive alchohol consumption.

In both cases, it's because the material conditions which engender apathy are also the ones which engender the search for unconventional solutions. Radicalism can only truly emerge in a time in which the traditional options are no longer credible.

Remember, as long as people trust in "Congress", they'll never even consider revolution. The first step to class consciousness is recognizing that, within the system, there is actually very little we can do.


I might sound naive, stupid whatever, but i'm convinced in someway we can do something.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "we". If it's the same "we" that's in "we invaded Iraq", then I suppose there's a great deal "we" can do.

If, rather, you mean "we" proletarian masses, I'm afraid the answer is not much. The system is specifically designed to keep our capacity for interference to a minumum.

Of course, smash that system, and our options open up...

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2007 09:42 am
Remember, as long as people trust in "Congress", they'll never even consider revolution. The first step to class consciousness is recognizing that, within the system, there is actually very little we can do.
But the majority of the people don't trust the Congress or President, and don't even take part in elections.

Their apathy isn't one of finding other means of expressing themselves politically, like the apathy of the 1930's and the Vietnam-war era was. The current apathy has cut out political expression completely, and it has become a sort of "taboo" to talk about politics with people of the current generation.

What could be the cause of that besides affluence? And how can that be "solved"? Do we have to wait for a economic breakdown before anything serious will happen in terms of the political expression of the working-class taking a revolutionary form?

[ComradeR]

What could be the cause of that besides affluence? And how can that be "solved"? Do we have to wait for a economic breakdown before anything serious will happen in terms of the political expression of the working-class taking a revolutionary form?
It seems that way yes. The labor aristocracy along with the education system in the US has done their job well, the majority of the US working class has grown very apathetic and seems to care very little about politics, as long as their comfortable lives remain unaffected it looks to remain that way.

[Ultra-Violence]

If you want to do something, get involved with local revolutionary leftist groups and spread out propaganda to get the alternative voice out to the public. Don't expect a convenient 'revolution' without there being revolutionary situation that's at the hands of the majority of the workforce.

The anti-war movement is a good way to get messages out.


^^^^^
THIS! im am so tired of protesting really but i just go now to shout out anti-capitlist shit and I hate how out protest everyone one keeps saying DRIVE OUT THE BUSH REGIME! and shit like that so i mix it up and people just stare and sometimes they join me


Some stuff not Reported in the MainStream (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2007/10/209097.php)


And LSD i Agree WITH YOU 1000000000% the people arent made at the captitlist their mad for them doing it wrongly you so hit the mark

[Led Zeppelin]

LSD could you please reply to my post? I'd like to know your opinion on the matter. :)