How to spot and out pigs

[bezdomni]

I noticed in D.C. at the IMF/World Bank protest that there was a lot of pig infiltration in our groups, especially groups planning direct actions. I noticed that any groups of people of about four or more got followed around pretty much without fail, and that there was obvious bugging, wiretapping and direct police infiltration in planning groups.

Obviously, if we want to be successful in anything from putting up graffiti to launching insurrection - we have to know how to avoid police infiltration in our groups and keep the police ignorant.

So I am putting up this thread so we can share advice on how to spot pigs, how to out them and how to make plans without the police knowing about them.

A few notes on spotting pigs:

1) A universal thing that pig infiltrates do is ask pig questions. They want to know about things that they have no reason to know about (for example, who was at a specific place at a specific time where something illegal happened...or who put up a certain piece of graffiti or who started lighting trashcans on fire). Anybody who frequently asks these sorts of questions and is very persistent about getting an answer is probably a cop. However, it should be noted that sometimes amateurs who do not understand security culture will ask pig questions. Comrades should explain to anybody who asks a pig question why these questions should not be asked and why they should not be answered. If the person persists, you should become very wary of this person and try to pick up on other pig behavior exhibited by them. If all signs point to yes, you should out this person as a cop or an informer.

There are lots of ways pig questions are asked, some being more subtle than others. As such, there is a multitude of ways to respond to pig questions. I'll give a few examples:

Pig: Do you know who detonated that bomb in haymarket square?
You: No, and it is none of our business who did it.

[If you actually did know and answered the question obviously, you have just ratted out a comrade.]

Pig: Hey, how many people were at that illegal march where a lot of property damage occured and several cops were injured?
You: I don't know. Maybe you should read a newspaper.

[If were to actually answer this question, you are in a way admitting that you were at said illegal march and have successfully drawn the attention of the police. Furthermore, if you directly answer this question, other, more specific and incriminating questions would probably follow.]

2) Pig infiltrates generally do not know a lot about leftist politics or strategy. If you already suspect a person is a cop, but aren't absolutely sure. You could try and engage them in a political discussion. Cops have a tendency to agree with everything you'll say and offer very little if any arguments to the contrary. You should also be able to tell the difference between a cop and a person who is a leftist but doesn't know much about leftist politics.

A lot of times, pigs and informants are really hot on inciting violence...or at least finding people who are hot on inciting violence. There's the example of the "vietnam vet" who has "real experience" and wants to "make a concrete statement". If anybody just approaches you and asks if you want to make a bomb or if you know where to get guns or something...then you should a) call them out for breaching security culture and b) refuse to have anything to do with this person.

If you see a person who fits this characteristic asking other people the same thing, you should consider observing if they exhibit other characteristics of a pig or if they are just crazy.

3) Often, police will hunt in packs. They won't always necessarily openly communicate with each other (like, you might have two cops infiltrating the same group...but they don't talk to one another in front of others to keep suspicion down). However, they usually ask the same sorts of questions and respond to situations in the roughly the same way. Also, if you suspect group infiltration, it is pretty easy to watch for eye contact or cops slipping words to one another.

In D.C., for example, I noticed that there was this guy going around and taking pictures of people. He could have easily been a reporter or something, but then I saw him walk over towards pig-in-uniform and talk secretly to him...which totally exposed him as a cop.

4) Police do subtle things very differently from us. For example, police are trained to hold shields with their non-dominant hand, so they can hold a club with their dominant hand and beat us. We, not having any clubs, tend to hold our shields with our dominant hand.

Of course, just because a person doesn't hold a shield like everyone else doesn't mean they're a pig. They might be a comrade who injured their other hand, or maybe they plan on throwing stuff with their dominant hand. However, noticing minutia like this is never harmful and might supplement other suspicion about pig infiltrates.

5) At marches and rallies, especially ones that get a little (or a lot) violent, cops love to take pictures and videos. There are ways to distinguish a cop photographer from a journalist, but I'll address that later.


Other comrades are invited to post experiences or suggestions about dealing with police. I will add more later.

Ultimately: Stay safe and don't answer pig questions!

[guerilla E]

Yeah, we know some pigs who snuck into the bloc at G8, also the camps.

"Hey lets go throw rocks at the cops!" is the famous line of the G8 Civil Police, who then got ousted thanks to one of the idiots spilling their bag all over the place.

These cops will;
1) Incite violence, distrubt true direction, confuse the flow of the organization, try to pick out violent teens and exploit them to provoke police response.

2) Some of them will remove dangerous weapons such as bottles or poles when no one is looking; they may put up the front of "pacifist action" but this kinda shit happens right before a police action.

3) They'll try to wander into positions of leadership or essential security ie. camp gates, into meetings, near the tents of prominent members of political groups, they'll try to infiltrate these positions to get bits of info or observe functions.

4) Take photos, ask questions, pose as journalists preying on camera hungry teenagers who think talking about group movements will get them on the news, this is the peak of stupidity if you partake in this - dont talk unless you have planned what to say.

5) Follow you! If you wear a mask, or if your going to change clothes, DO NOT bring along the dude you just met at the rally who also 'needs to go underground'

6) Be warned that not all cops will not know things about politics, or about groups or actions, they may discuss things well long enough to jump the first tests, they may claim to be parts of groups or actions that they've devised beforehands.

7) No undercover works alone - this is important. Never will an undercover work alone, they'll always have groups, always someone for back-up. Its standard police procedure.

8) Ask them to 'throw the first rock' at the cops, 'light the bin first' or other criminal things. This is a good filter especially if you have a big group with watching.

-Author's note; I've been suspected of being a spy, or a undercover, once. Don't take it personally, any group who's half pro will exercise caution; its got nothing to do with the person itself. Therefore, be BRUTAL, if you suspect someone really gorge them with tests, it is essential.

P.S. I really am a spy, full CIA baby, yea.

[Organic Revolution]

Wow, super important thread. I am going to pin this.

[Red October]

Really good advice. Too many protesters get fooled by these guys and it ends up turning out very bad for them. We also need to to remember that they don't just infiltrate groups at demonstrations, they will show up in community spaces, infoshops, or anywhere else where radical leftists regularly gather. If anyone you don't know shows up around your collective, book shop, etc and starts asking questions about what sorts of shadyt hings you may be doing or asking for details about protests ans such, dodge the questions. When I was knew to all this and didn't know anything about security culture, I got snitched on because I let too much information loose. It's a common mistake for younger activists and we need to do everything possible to avoid it.

[Comrade Rage]

Once you are sure of these fuckwit's identities--what do you do? Just avoid them?

[Ander]

Once you are sure of these fuckwit's identities--what do you do? Just avoid them?

No, you take them behind the chemical sheds...


4) Police do subtle things very differently from us. For example, police are trained to hold shields with their non-dominant hand, so they can hold a club with their dominant hand and beat us. We, not having any clubs, tend to hold our shields with our dominant hand.

Of course, just because a person doesn't hold a shield like everyone else doesn't mean they're a pig. They might be a comrade who injured their other hand, or maybe they plan on throwing stuff with their dominant hand. However, noticing minutia like this is never harmful and might supplement other suspicion about pig infiltrates.

There is no universal dominant hand. While most people are right-handed, there are still tons of lefties around. What are you supposed to do about this, ask the person if they're right-handed or left-handed? And what about ambidextrous people?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, btw.

[Red October]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 25, 2007 07:17 pm
Once you are sure of these fuckwit's identities--what do you do? Just avoid them?
As much as you may want to, you can't take these people out and harm them. Cops are extremely protective of their own and if you kill an undercover one, they will come down on you as hard as they can. You can just avoid them, make it clear to them that you know they're a pig spy, or even feed them false information. The cops will feel really stupid if they show up at the other end of the city from where an action is going down.

[bezdomni]

There is no universal dominant hand. While most people are right-handed, there are still tons of lefties around. What are you supposed to do about this, ask the person if they're right-handed or left-handed? And what about ambidextrous people?

It was just an example of peculiar things police might do. I mean, those guys were also about 20 years older than everyone else at the workshop and about 150 pounds heavier.

LOL there was even this one cop who was trying to pose as a journalist even though he had a fucking earpiece in and was obviously communicating with other cops.


Once you are sure of these fuckwit's identities--what do you do? Just avoid them?

That sort of depends on the country you live in. In the U.S. and most first world countries, you should just ask if they are an undercover police officer. They probably won't answer honestly (or at all) at first, so ask a few times. Make sure you get a *clear* "yes" or "no" answer. If they say "no" but you are still certain that this person is an informant at least, tell them to leave you alone and that you no longer want them to be part of your action or group.

As BCBM said in another thread "you don't have to be an agent to do an agent's job", meaning, just cos they aren't actually a police officer, they could be running information to the police as a "free agent". Thus meaning they can honestly say "no, I am not a police officer" but still end up fucking you and your comrades.

Before you out a pig, you should probably talk it over with people you know first. Make sure others agree that a certain person is a pig and out the pig as a group. Make sure everyone knows who the cop is. Blow the pigs identity. Take pictures of them, post them on a local indymedia or copwatch project. If you are at an action like G8, put their pictures up around your camp or something.

"Outting" a pig means making the information that a person is a pig public.

[bezdomni]

btw, NorthStarRepublicML sent me a PM and suggested that I put this up.

How to Master Secret Work - Communist Party of South Africa (http://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sections/sacp/1980/secret-work.htm)

[guerilla E]

People, btw, cops do use informers; who kinda bypass all these warning signs.

They can use anyone from a real comrade to a groomed comrade; pay them or get them off the hook for shit they got caught for.

Recently wasn't there a girl who got paid $60 000 by the FBI to infiltrate an anarchist ring? She was an informer with police back up, infiltrated all the way to the top from starting at the bottom.

The other thing that may happen is a comrade getting picked up, charged, given a deal. The charges are usually made to appear worse than they are, extra charges are plastered on, and the deal is made to sound real tempting. Your buddy, your comrade, your brother, your dog - all can be infiltrators. Actually thats not all that common, but known to be used on occasion.

Read that manual that published by Communist Party of South Africa, it stresses the importance of having your mouth shut. There are things you can say, things you cant, things that are just bragging and things that are examples.

For example:
I set a bin on fire at a protest last year. (Vague, nothing can be done about this)
I set a bin on fire at the corner of _____ and _____ at _____ of June, 20__, and also plugged a copper in the head with a brick, during that protest about _______. (You, sir, are an idiot.)

[Dr Mindbender]

do fascist infiltrators use the same techniques?


Originally posted by guerilla E

4) Take photos, ask questions, pose as journalists preying on camera hungry teenagers who think talking about group movements will get them on the news, this is the peak of stupidity if you partake in this - dont talk unless you have planned what to say
This one made me think, when I was at Genoa (2001) some woman claiming to be from the Italian TV station came up to me claiming she was offering us protestors a 'fair say'. Luckilly I didnt say anything to her.

[An archist]

In all this: it's often hard to tell he difference between a cop and someone who is new to revolutionary politics and/or action.
So if someone starts asking suspicious questions, that doesn't necesarily mean the person is a cop.
So the best advice would be: don't be paranoid, just be fucking careful!

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+October 26, 2007 12:08 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ October 26, 2007 12:08 pm) do fascist infiltrators use the same techniques?


guerilla E

4) Take photos, ask questions, pose as journalists preying on camera hungry teenagers who think talking about group movements will get them on the news, this is the peak of stupidity if you partake in this - dont talk unless you have planned what to say
This one made me think, when I was at Genoa (2001) some woman claiming to be from the Italian TV station came up to me claiming she was offering us protestors a 'fair say'. Luckilly I didnt say anything to her. [/b]
Fascists may be too scared to perform 'on the field' undercover work - they do not have backup nor a squad waiting to extract them should shit hit the fan (imagine trying to get out of the crowd in that setting).

There are also concerns over freelance photographers, vigilante photographers and private agents (ALL of these have been used before). Vigilante or freelance photographers might count as right-wing/reactionary/fascists because some of them actively try to photograph members taking off masks, changing clothes or in groups. Some people at the Melbourne G20 had their photos published in the Age thanks to bastard photographers (some of these cockheads even bragged about it on their blogs).

Private agents are basically hired freelancers (check WOMBLES for a story on two that infiltrated a group), but they tend to only be applied for environmental issues etc.

[Dr.Pepper]

Forgive me for I may be ignorant but I do not believe it is very easy to spot pigs who have infiltrated networks. The world's most powerful terrorist and drug networks eventually get infiltrated. If these people who have a lot of worldly experience (and money for security measures) get infiltrated, just about any regular person is bound to get tapped anyway. I do agree with some of the points made in this thread however: don't blab your mouth is probably the greatest thing a person should remember. It is far too easy to speak freely in this world & many times that gets one in trouble or their comrades.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by SovietPants+October 25, 2007 07:59 pm--> (SovietPants @ October 25, 2007 07:59 pm) If anybody just approaches you and asks if you want to make a bomb or if you know where to get guns or something... [/b]
Wasn't there someone on here the other day who had five mates with guns, and wanted to join an armed group?


SovietPants
It was just an example of peculiar things police might do. I mean, those guys were also about 20 years older than everyone else at the workshop and about 150 pounds heavier

I have just looked at your profile, and I am over twenty years older than you. I am not sure about your weight, nor do I understand imperial measurements, but I certainly have seen slimmer days.

Am I then a cop?

Devrim

[Red October]

The weight thing is not a rule to stick by, but it is true that cops are often fairly beefy people. I was at a demo on friday and almost all the cops were much larger than any of the protesters. It's part of their job, they need to be big and strong to deal with some situations.

[rocker935]

Originally posted by devrimankara+November 17, 2007 10:19 pm--> (devrimankara @ November 17, 2007 10:19 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 07:59 pm
If anybody just approaches you and asks if you want to make a bomb or if you know where to get guns or something...
Wasn't there someone on here the other day who had five mates with guns, and wanted to join an armed group?


SovietPants
It was just an example of peculiar things police might do. I mean, those guys were also about 20 years older than everyone else at the workshop and about 150 pounds heavier

I have just looked at your profile, and I am over twenty years older than you. I am not sure about your weight, nor do I understand imperial measurements, but I certainly have seen slimmer days.

Am I then a cop?

Devrim [/b]
you might be, lol jk. But typically older folks wont be out there protesting. And as he said none of these are for sure factors. You should just take it all under consideration. Just don't assume he/she is a pig because they fit under one category, you can only be sure if they fit under many categories.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 10:44 pm
But typically older folks wont be out there protesting.
No, the last time I was at a protest was two weeks ago, and there were many workers my age, or over.
Devrim

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by devrimankara+November 18, 2007 12:51 am--> (devrimankara @ November 18, 2007 12:51 am)
[email protected] 17, 2007 10:44 pm
But typically older folks wont be out there protesting.
No, the last time I was at a protest was two weeks ago, and there were many workers my age, or over.
Devrim [/b]
I think the point about age is, the age compared to the rest of the group.


If the group is mainly young 20-30 year olds, and you get a 50 year old joining, then you have to think about them. It is a warning sign.

Just like, in your circumstances, if you get some young 'hot-heads' joining and advocating violence, they might be a cop. They might just be stupid, but if it is added to other warning signs, then you might want to avoid them.




On cops, photographers and protesters...

Journalists will generally have [press badges that are obviously displayed. These badges will enable them to get in and out of police lines.

If you see someone taking photos without a badge, going in and out of police lines easily, go and talk to them. Ask them if they are a cop.

They won't admit it.


If they are cop, they might not even talk to you, they might tell you to go away.


Try blocking them from taking photos (e.g. sticking your hand in front of the camera), but don't touch them or their equipment.


If you get arrested for "being annoying", they were probably a cop.



There is no really easy way to tell if a person in this situation isn't a cop. Which is a pity really. But if they keep turning up to protests and keep having all the warning signs, and they don't talk to you... I would out them.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by devrimankara+November 17, 2007 10:19 pm--> (devrimankara @ November 17, 2007 10:19 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 07:59 pm
If anybody just approaches you and asks if you want to make a bomb or if you know where to get guns or something...
Wasn't there someone on here the other day who had five mates with guns, and wanted to join an armed group?


SovietPants
It was just an example of peculiar things police might do. I mean, those guys were also about 20 years older than everyone else at the workshop and about 150 pounds heavier

I have just looked at your profile, and I am over twenty years older than you. I am not sure about your weight, nor do I understand imperial measurements, but I certainly have seen slimmer days.

Am I then a cop?

Devrim [/b]
Of course he provided examples as a starting point. the person may not be a cop if they're older, but it could alert you to watch for other clues, such as trying to incite violence or seek info on those engaging in violence, etc.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by guerilla [email protected] 25, 2007 09:47 pm
-Author's note; I've been suspected of being a spy, or a undercover, once. Don't take it personally, any group who's half pro will exercise caution; its got nothing to do with the person itself. Therefore, be BRUTAL, if you suspect someone really gorge them with tests, it is essential.

P.S. I really am a spy, full CIA baby, yea.
Haha, I went to a protest a while ago. Not to participate, but to write a news report for college (Journalism). It was all in a very public venue, so I had no qualms with standing right next to negotiations between organizers and the cops, hoping for some good quotes. One kid didn't want to talk to me until I told him who I was. "Thought you were one of those cops", he said. He pointed to a rather obvious woman who was filming everything and had a walkie-talkie with her. I tried interviewing her for shits and giggles, but I obviously didn't get anything good out of it.

Anyway, this is very useful info. By the way, I'm not sure whether age is a good measure. At another recent protest, I saw that at some point a lot of older cops were recalled, while younger ones were brought in. Someone theorized that this was because younger cops get more rigourous indoctrination and will have less qualms with performing charges on innocent people, violently arresting kids, etc. Older cops will have seen it all and be a bit more skeptical about the protestors being terrorists or a threat to national security.

[Pawn Power]

This is an important thread. But why is it in DIY? Wouldn't Practice be more appropriate?

[An archist]

Oh yeah, an anecdote springs to mind: age is indeed not a good qualification to spot pigs.
Some time ago, a squat got evicted and a protest was announced for a week later, during the week several things were burned in the city. A friend of mine was just leaving another squat when he was stopped by three cops on bikes who looked just like regular students.

[crimsonzephyr]

Originally posted by guerilla [email protected] 25, 2007 08:47 pm
7) No undercover works alone - this is important. Never will an undercover work alone, they'll always have groups, always someone for back-up. Its standard police procedure.

I wish i read this thread before earlier today. I was in a parking garage stairwell with a couple of friends and we were doing...stuff. anyway out of nowhere a "hobo" came in and started to make small talk and was actually asking us if we were smoking and shit. thankfully we took it well and stayed low, but about 30 min. later another "hobo" came and was asking us the same stuff. now that i think about it, we were on the 4th floor and the "hobo" came up from whatever floor in the elevator then after talking with us left down the elevator. Why would he come up, talk to us then just go back down?

I'm not entirely sure that they were undercovers but your #7 really makes me think they were. Scary, stuff like this has happened before, and i've never even thought that they could have been undercovers.

I cant explain how important this thread is

READ THIS THREAD IF YOU ARE NEW!

[Marsella]

I would say that the biggest 'give-away' is when a hobo (for want of a better PC word) walks past you and his walkie-talkie goes off.

Happened to me whilst walking home from a train station notorious for drug selling and socialist-selling papers. Quite comical.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:52 pm
I would say that the biggest 'give-away' is when a hobo (for want of a better PC word) walks past you and his walkie-talkie goes off.

Happened to me whilst walking home from a train station notorious for drug selling and socialist-selling papers. Quite comical.
:lol:

I should have told the pig to mind his own business

[bezdomni]

Obviously there are just general guidelines and not absolute rules. There is no absolute way to spot pigs, but if you have a general idea of their tactics and keep your wits about you...it could end up saving you and/or your comrades.

Knowing how the police work is a key element in anyone who does any sort of revolutionary work.

[crimsonzephyr]

will pigs arrest you or whatever if you ask the old bacon question?

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Martov+December 02, 2007 10:52 pm--> (Martov @ December 02, 2007 10:52 pm) I would say that the biggest 'give-away' is when a hobo (for want of a better PC word) walks past you and his walkie-talkie goes off.

Happened to me whilst walking home from a train station notorious for drug selling and socialist-selling papers. Quite comical. [/b]
My personal fave are the hobos with the perfectly brushed/perfectly maintained teeth. :lol: Gives 'em away every time!


hardee
will pigs arrest you or whatever if you ask the old bacon question?
I don't think so, but I wouldn't try!

[crimsonzephyr]

I have a few questions about pigs:

-Do i have a lesser chance of being caught at 4 in the morning?

-If i get caught for graffiti, what is the punishment?

-if i get caught for trespassing, what is the punishment?

-If i run and get caught, will the punishment be greater?

-and what will happen? i mean will they escort me back home and tell my parents or just give a simple warning? Will it show on my record? i really dont know...

[An archist]

-Do i have a lesser chance of being caught at 4 in the morning?
Depends on where you are, if you want to be sure, just hang out at that time and place to see for yourself how much cops come by (though this might make you very suspicious, again: depends on where it is.)

-If i get caught for graffiti, what is the punishment?
-if i get caught for trespassing, what is the punishment?
-If i run and get caught, will the punishment be greater?
Depends on where you live

-and what will happen? i mean will they escort me back home and tell my parents or just give a simple warning? Will it show on my record? i really dont know...

If you are underage they will most likely warn your parents, I even think they have to do that. Normally, it will show on a record, but once you become 18 it will be ignored.

[abbielives!]

Bad-Jacketing - "Snitch-jacketing" or "bad-jacketing" refers to the practice of creating suspicion -- through the spread of rumors, manufacture of evidence, etc. -- that bona fide organizational members, usually in key positions, are FBI/police informers, guilty of such offenses as skimming organizational funds and the like. The purpose of this tactic was to "isolate and eliminate" organizational leadership; such efforts were continued -- and in some instances accelerated -- when it became known that the likely outcome would be extreme physical violence visited upon the "jacketed" individual(s). - http://www.nocompromise.org/fight/tactics.html

ward churchill put it this way:
"The thing that is
most critically important is to thoroughly understand
the techniques that are used by counter-intelligence,
usually at the lower levels, and not do the job for
them. That means not gratuitously calling people
'cops' in order to resolve political disagreements,
which has been an endemic practice on the left. Often
intelligence agencies don't even need to insert
provocateurs because they can rely on the activists to
do it to themselves. Maybe they stimulate it a few
times; they plant a few documents, they do whatever
they do. The rule of thumb should be: if it acts like
a cop and talks like a cop, maybe you treat it like a
cop. But you don't call it one. You don't feed into
that. If somebody is destabilizing and threatening and
they're compromising the integrity or the security of
the group, you simply eliminate that person by putting
them outside the group. You don't make a public show
of it, and you don't put out wanted posters unless you
actually have concrete evidence that this is a police
operative or infiltrator.


See, we put ourselves in such a compromised position
from internal dynamics and bad practices that all they
have to do is take this tottering structure, push it,
and give it some momentum. At the level that we're
organizing now, bad practice is our worst enemy, not
the police state. There isn't anybody that I know of
who is actually mounting a clandestine operation to
try to challenge the authority of the state at this
point. We're in a building period, and how we build is
contingent, in a large part, on the internalization of
these lessons."
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-l...19/msg00017.htm (http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2005w19/msg00017.htm)

[Ultra-Violence]

all of those tips are nice but MAN OU CAN SMELL A UC FROM A MILE A WAY its so obvious for now IMO now that the goverment is goana study us and shit with that new bill all of these tips will be very helpfull and every one who in the movement needs to knwo about security culture!

[Wanted Man]

Below, I'm posting part of an article from the Workers' Party of Belgium about how the BVD (Dutch internal security during the Cold War, called AIVD nowadays) managed to cause a rift within the old Communist Party of the Netherlands during the 1950s and 1960s.

The conflict at the time centered between the leader Paul de Groot, and his opposers. The latter group, centered around the paper "The Bridge", wanted to maintain the pre-war communist labour union. This turned out to be a BVD ruse, meant to keep the communists away from the social-democratic union NVV, so that they could not radicalize a great mass of workers. They then went on to call for more "openness". The group split off, and formed the "Socialist Workers Party" (SWP), which was mostly dominated by the BVD's agenda. However, that party disbanded in 1960, as the BVD saw more gain in supporting Maoist splits.

So, some terms and names used:

CPN: Communist Party of the Netherlands, disbanded 1989, succeeded by New Communist Party-NCPN.
BVD: Internal Security Service.
NVV: Dutch Association of Trade Unions, the social-democratic union federation. Merged with catholic NKV and is now known as FNV.
EVC: United Labour Central, the communist union. Disbanded 1964 after years of struggle over it between Paul de Groot and the opposition.
Bridge Group: opposition within the CPN. Denounced as "British spies" in 1958 and expelled. Formed the Socialist Workers Party.
Socialist Workers Party: party of former CPN oppositionists, disbanded 1965. Some members went on to join the Pacifist Socialist Party.
Paul de Groot: Jewish "stalinist" head of the party. Skilled intellectual, journalist, politician and anti-revisionist. Became more alienated from the party towards the end of his life. In the 1970s, he blamed the eurocommunist leadership for an electoral defeat, which removed his honourary membership.

Anyway, without further ado:

How to cut off the cops?

The Internal Security Service (BVD) has used all the likely and unlikely means to try and create contradictions within the CPN and split it up. There are ways to make this tactic fail.

1. Several BVD reports show that they used "a network of informers, who managed to gain the desired information in the family circle, at work, at the football or fisherman's associations, in the school board or neighbourhood committee." By 'desired information', the BVD means the possible differences in opinions within the CPN. In places where the rules were obeyed in the strictest way, like the Political Bureau of the CPN, the BVD was unable to find out these differences. The BVD makes several frustrated notes that party leader Paul de Groot never told his wife anything, and that important conversations with other comrades were always done during "a walk in the park". Conclusion: discussion is one of the engines of party life, but there is no reason to be loose-lipped to the outside world about it.

2. It took the BVD a long time to form an opposition group. It began with informal contacts, phonecalls, going out, walks, dinners, finally leading to organized faction meetings. Looking back, the BVD wonders if it had not been too early for the opposition group "The Bridge" to leave the CPN. The BVD says that it would perhaps have been better to strengthen the opposition within the CPN. Conclusion: factionalism and 'mutual favours among friends' are means used by the police to make the party explode.

3. The BVD used all sorts of 'personal' information to make the communists and party sympathizers rise against party leader Paul de Groot. One police story was that De Groot had transported one of his closest comrades to East Berlin for an operation, against the advice of his doctor and close friends. These sort of stories were meant to prove that De Groot was acting like a loose cannon and a 'stalinist'. Conclusion: personal slanders weaken the party and create a climate where splits become possible.

4. The BVD made ceaseless propaganda for "an open discussion", "a free debate", "a free and democratic discussion", to publicize as many contradictions within the party as possible. It called for a "critical spirit" among party members, by which the cops actually meant that party members had to act against their leadership. They tried to ridiculize loyal communists, who formed the great majority of the CPN members, as "followers of De Groot" and "supporters of a stalinist party model". Conclusion: the principles of the communist party say that the party should be defended in public, even if one disagrees with a collective decision. The CPN's experience proves that this is a golden rule.

5. The BVD reports say that reconciliatory and lazy attitudes of party militants serve the police and the opposition group around The Bridge. Party members did not report each others' loose lips and the publication of internal discussions. They shrugged their shoulders when party members violated the basic principles. The BVD writes that the party leadership thereby did not get a correct view of violations, making it much easier for the police to have its way. Conclusion: acting against violations and reporting them is the best method to prevent the cops from using these violations.

6. The BVD had no problem to use the 'free' press. The head of the BVD, Einthoven, writes in his memoires: "The editor of Het Vrije Volk would regularly write an article based on our data against all the propaganda of the far left. Therefore, my relationship with the then editor was very pleasant." (1) Conclusion: all communists should study the undermining techniques of the police, such as the use of the 'free' press, to recognize them.

(1) Cited in Wil van der Schans, Hun crisis was de onze niet. Internationale crises en binnenlandse veiligheid, 1945-1960, Kleintje Muurkrant, September 1994.

Source (http://www.solidaire.org/international/article.phtml?section=A2AAAGBG&object_id=23006)

[Mara_Suomessa]

I was up at the anti-SPP/NAU protests in Quebec over the summer, and we had cops in our lines. A couple guys in the cadre I went up with spent most of the day getting rid of convieniently placed rocks that some of the UC guys had placed along the median of the highway we occupied.

On the other side of the median, there were three cops dressed as anarchists that were trying to incite violence. One of the legit anarchists started shouting "policé! policé!" and attracted the attention of union leader Dave Coles who ended up calling them out. The three UCCs started inching towards the police line (a good indicator is to look where people head when things get iffy... the cops will head toward their lines, legit guys either won't move or will head back to the camp/cars) and were "arrested" after whispering a few words in the ear of the cop at the end of their line. What ended up giving them away was that a video revealed both the UCCs and the cops were wearing the same combat boots issued by the SdQ. A big shit-storm ensued, it was going to go before a parliamentary hearing, but parliament was delayed; such is bourgeois politics.

Anyway, I wish I could post the video but I don't have enough posts yet... look up Dave Coles on Youtube if you haven't seen it already.

Also, if you want a more complete account of what happened in Montebello, I wrote an article that made the rounds of Indymedia over the summer called "Montebello: What Really Happened". If you google it you'll find it.

[Wanted Man]

By the way, if you are a journalist (or someone else reporting on the action who is neither a protester nor a cop), don't do what I described doing at the top of this page.
It's not very nice to cause suspicion and trouble like that.

If you have a press card and are an actual journalist, it should be obvious what procedure to follow. There are unwritten ethical rules about not being an activist, hearing both sides of the story ("audi alteram partem"), etc., that differentiate the serious journalist from the tendentious hack.

Otherwise (if you are a student like me, or otherwise interested but unable to be recognized as a real journalist), go up to a representative of the demo right away. I did that eventually during that action, and they allowed me to accompany them, I got a lot more out of it that way. Journalists find news, facts, quotes, etc., and you don't get them by standing on the sideline, staring at everyone like a goon (more likely, people will suspect you of being a copper).

[Miss Mindfuck.]

I have a few questions about pigs:

-Do i have a lesser chance of being caught at 4 in the morning?


-If i get caught for graffiti, what is the punishment?

-if i get caught for trespassing, what is the punishment?

-If i run and get caught, will the punishment be greater?

-and what will happen? i mean will they escort me back home and tell my parents or just give a simple warning? Will it show on my record? i really dont know...

-Largely dependent on where you are.

-Dependent on age and the laws where you live.

-See above.

-Most likely. There are many bullshit charges that can be tacked onto a simple arrest for trespassing or petty vandalism, e.g. resisting arrest.

-This depends on the cop. I've had friends who got a warning, and I've known people who got hauled to jail immediately. Although, if you're under 18, I strongly encourage you to use the credits that the Juvenile Justice System affords you. After all, your juvenile records will be sealed; you do not get that luxury once you're legal. Not to mention the absolute cakewalk that a youth center is compared to your friendly local county jail...

[RNK]

Resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, littering, distributing hateful material, protesting without a permit, disturbing traffic, are some charges comrades I know have faced when carrying out peaceful protests.

The most important thing we can do after being confronted by the police is to NOT BACK DOWN! Last summer the RCP-PCR held a demonstration in St. Jerome (a small rural town) which was attacked by police, their equipment confiscated and a plethora of bogus charges laid. So what did they do? They decided to go back and do the exact same thing and this time they were joined by MORE activists, concerned citizens and students and others who rejected the cops' harsh treatment. This time it was the police who were forced to back down and the whole thing was a smashing success.

[shuuk]

-Do i have a lesser chance of being caught at 4 in the morning?
Depends on where you are, if you want to be sure, just hang out at that time and place to see for yourself how much cops come by (though this might make you very suspicious, again: depends on where it is.)

-If i get caught for graffiti, what is the punishment?
-if i get caught for trespassing, what is the punishment?
-If i run and get caught, will the punishment be greater?
Depends on where you live

-and what will happen? i mean will they escort me back home and tell my parents or just give a simple warning? Will it show on my record? i really dont know...

If you are underage they will most likely warn your parents, I even think they have to do that. Normally, it will show on a record, but once you become 18 it will be ignored.

This is where my i can help i have just resently been arrested for graffiti-
-punishment
the punishment for anyone doing enoff graf is 10,000 plus and jail-prison time(most likly itll be less and ALWAS I REPEAT ALWAYS fight the charge u can get off so esaly (www godisart com) will tell you more about fighting it.
-trespassing is a warning first i dont no about after that.
-only if u get caught running will it be grater(whole nother ticket for evaiding arrest) otherwise no
-as for 4 in the morning no pending on were u live i would start aroudn 1-2 wile the 5-0 is busy with the dwi's and go till 430 at latest 5 but thats when people start getting to work for sum jobs and getting up to go to work at others...

HOPE THIS HELPS and STAY UP! :D

[professorchaos]

Pro tip:
Don't run from the cops unless you're sure you can get away, or you want a really badass story to tell.

[shuuk]

Pro tip:
Don't run from the cops unless you're sure you can get away, or you want a really badass story to tell.

sorry i forgot sumthing ---^ hes right but kinda if the cop sees your face clearly then just say fuck it an make up a story on the spot like why u have cans and why ur there n all that shyt the website i gave you will xplain it better!

:)

[Norseman]

No, don't make up a story. Don't say anything to a cop. Cops will not simply let you go because you make up some excuse about why you're carrying a can of spray paint. If they find evidence that you used the spray paint, that's all that matters in court. If you make up some story, and they get evidence, then they're going to testify that you lied to them, which is illegal and will get you a harsher sentence. You're best off either running away or telling them nothing. For that matter, spray painting is not a good idea anyway, unless you're a really good artist. No one is going to change their political beliefs because of an anarchy symbol on the side of a building. It's a much better use of your time to protest, organize, or get organized, and try to change people's minds. Cop watching is a good example of something that is legal, and can change people's minds much more effectively than spray painting. I don't deny that there are illegal means which are more effective than spray painting too, but I'll leave it up to you to think about what's best. In any case, do not talk to the police. Save anything you want to say for your lawyer, your comrades, and your trial.

[bayano]

Some of the most important stuff on this thread thus far:

He who smelt it dealt it. The tasks of many Informants/Snitches and actual Agents include to create a general air of suspicion by, as one poster mentioned, bad-jacketing. This is one of their most important missions, and one we do on our own. Read your histories, many of the greatest and/or most clandestine leftist groups (e.g. the Black Panther Party) collapsed in large part because of paranoia.

My advice? Be vigilant, not paranoid. We can distinguish because paranoia limits our ability to function, creates a terrible vibe. Some groups at the RNC protests in St. Paul and in Miami, for example, cut their plans or drastically reduced them thanks to total paranoia, of a kind where people within affinity groups wouldn't even talk to each other about plans, so plans couldn't happen. Vigilant, not paranoid!

It is also important that, as someone said, we realize there are agents, and then there are informants. Informants can be either A) people who were activists who sell-out to government agencies or employers (security culture is important in union organizing drives too), or B) folks who had nothing to do with activism, but are recruited (usually, as someone said, to have charges dropped) to infiltrate. Both agents and informants are infiltrators, and there are tons of different sorts.

Chicago police, for example, often have had a single infiltrator come to a single protest organizing meeting. They are clean cut, white, and look like cops. They often ask little, say little, and give little information. In some cases, they are decoys. On the other hand, there have been infiltrators who have been high up in activist groups or organizations for literally decades, or have taken to anarchist 'scenes' for a few years, staying at collectives' homes, working with Food Not Bombs or whatever else. Not all infiltrators know the others, and it often happens that many agencies have infiltrated the same group.

But the most important thing about security culture, besides to practice it and never talk to police/state agents, is to be vigilant, but absolutely not paranoid.

Oh, and I want to agree with the poster right above me. Never lie to police, FBI or others like them. If you lie to them in any way, and what you lied about is provable, you will be caught and it will be used against you.

[coda]

good post. look for the obvious --- the cops are the ones with the loaded 9mm stuffed down the front of their pants!

[bcbm]

Oh, and I want to agree with the poster right above me. Never lie to police, FBI or others like them. If you lie to them in any way, and what you lied about is provable, you will be caught and it will be used against you.

Fuck that, never even talk to them.

[INDK]

Is there any way to protect this thread from non-registered browsers of the site without changing the entire permission mask for the forum? With all the information here cops could conduct a full study and become better at what they're trying to do based on what we know.

[bcbm]

Is there any way to protect this thread from non-registered browsers of the site without changing the entire permission mask for the forum? With all the information here cops could conduct a full study and become better at what they're trying to do based on what we know.

Why? This is all public information that can be found on numerous websites. Beyond that, they already know how to be very good at what they do. There are cops and other spies trained to infiltrate some of the most serious criminal organizations on the planet, you don't think they can handle radical groups?

I don't know if its been mentioned on here yet but one thing infiltrators may do is push very strongly for action to occur, and only talk about action, especially plans. They'll avoid ideological conversations and not seem to have any reasons to back up their desire for so much action. Be wary of these types. Some of them may appear to be into "radical" things- graffiti, urban exploration, etc- but don't just accept them based on that. If you're going to take action with folks find out their motivations, find out if they actually have a clue what they're talking about and, if possible, do a full background check. Advise them to do the same on you. If they don't have anything to hide, it shouldn't be an issue.

[INDK]

Gotcha. :) Makes sense.

[freakazoid]

I remember reading somewhere about a group who had taken pictures of different cops and they would remember what they looked like and then at a protest they would be on the look out for them as undercover cops. They managed to root out a few.

[bayano]

http://www.whosarat.com/

[PostAnarchy]

In the US the pigs and FBI are now taking pictures of comrades at protests and demonstrations in order to intimidate them.

How do I respond?

With a big grin on my face! :D

[gorillafuck]

I remember reading somewhere about a group who had taken pictures of different cops and they would remember what they looked like and then at a protest they would be on the look out for them as undercover cops. They managed to root out a few.
That's a pretty good idea.

[bcbm]

In the US the pigs and FBI are now taking pictures of comrades at protests and demonstrations in order to intimidate them.

How do I respond?

With a big grin on my face! :D

now?

[cleef]

Is there any way to protect this thread from non-registered browsers of the site without changing the entire permission mask for the forum? With all the information here cops could conduct a full study and become better at what they're trying to do based on what we know.

tbh they are probably already registered anyway???

one thing that someone reminded me of that i am not sure has been mentioned and is more common a mistake than you would think, is the amount of people who rely on a duty solicitor (who usually are working alongside the police). If you are going to be taking part in action that could result in arrest ensure you have memorised the number of a good solicitor

[Dimentio]

How to do with people who claim that they are "master security experts" because of self-claimed background in the CIA or KGB?

[Comrade B]

Can someone give me a 100% assurance that if you ask a cop if they are a cop, they cannot say no?

[StalinFanboy]

I wish i read this thread before earlier today. I was in a parking garage stairwell with a couple of friends and we were doing...stuff.

You should never make comments like this. Ever.

[apathy maybe]

Can someone give me a 100% assurance that if you ask a cop if they are a cop, they cannot say no?

Fuck no. Cops are allowed to lie about if they are a cop. Heck, the filth are allowed to lie about everything. They can say that they know all about it, but just want your side of the story, they can say they can get you a reduced sentence, the judge makes the decision, etc.

Cops are filth, don't ever trust them.

[Poison]

Thank you for the guide. I have some questions, hopefully I can get some help...I'd appreciate it greatly.

I don't have any experience with anarchists in person, well, possibly. As I'm trying to get into journalism (I'm not sure yet whether I want to go into mainstream news, freelance journalism for mainstream news, or purely independent news...can't decide which would do the most good) and have a lot of interest in bringing light to the true face of the police (I'm getting some experience covering the police beat at my college...hehe) I want to cover protests, mass arrests (like at the RNC), and other places the police might act like...police. Reporting on how they often infiltrate peaceful groups is also something I'm interested in.

Unfortunately this means possibly coming off to anarchists or others protesting as...well, as the same way journalists have been talked about here. Any advice on how you might want a journalist to act who's on your side? What would you have us do? Is offering you to speak (anonymously?) and get your cause out a bad thing?

This has definitely made me think twice about having pictures taken of protesters, though.

Anyways, any advice will be taken.

[Rascal Ronny]

Forgive me for I may be ignorant but I do not believe it is very easy to spot pigs who have infiltrated networks. The world's most powerful terrorist and drug networks eventually get infiltrated. If these people who have a lot of worldly experience (and money for security measures) get infiltrated, just about any regular person is bound to get tapped anyway. I do agree with some of the points made in this thread however: don't blab your mouth is probably the greatest thing a person should remember. It is far too easy to speak freely in this world & many times that gets one in trouble or their comrades.

Very true words. But then again you have to be alert and can't simply just focus on keeping your mouth shut. The first two posts I read were very good reads and info, obviously from experienced protesters. I kind of skimmed through the rest and came across this. I think the bottom line is thinking, being educated, being prepared.

[Aloysius]

I remember a gay pride festival I helped organise. There was a parade and then a couple speakers at a stage we set up in the park. I was helping with security during the parade, and it was getting pretty raunchy. On one float I saw this guy sitting alone, but everyone else on the float was making out, so I hopped up and confronted him. He had an earpiece so I knew he was a cop.
I let the others know and he disappeared.
I think during some protests, like at G8, G20, etc that get violent, the undercover cops are the protesters that aren't doing anything, even if they are able.

[nuisance]

Pigs are usually more macho looking and tall than normal protesters on demos. :bored:

[BLACKPLATES]

you can make a note of what they look like and what name they are using

[ellipsis]

Hair cuts are a good indicator i have found, pigs usually have crew cuts and wear shades.

[hatzel]

Pigs are pretty easy to spot, actually. They're the fat smelly pink ones with springy tails, eating their own shit...

Oh, we aren't talking about that kind of pig...hmm...scratch the bit about springy tails, then...

[PhoenixAsh]

Below, I'm posting part of an article from the Workers' Party of Belgium about how the BVD (Dutch internal security during the Cold War, called AIVD nowadays) managed to cause a rift within the old Communist Party of the Netherlands during the 1950s and 1960s.

The conflict at the time centered between the leader Paul de Groot, and his opposers. The latter group, centered around the paper "The Bridge", wanted to maintain the pre-war communist labour union. This turned out to be a BVD ruse, meant to keep the communists away from the social-democratic union NVV, so that they could not radicalize a great mass of workers. They then went on to call for more "openness". The group split off, and formed the "Socialist Workers Party" (SWP), which was mostly dominated by the BVD's agenda. However, that party disbanded in 1960, as the BVD saw more gain in supporting Maoist splits.

So, some terms and names used:

CPN: Communist Party of the Netherlands, disbanded 1989, succeeded by New Communist Party-NCPN.
BVD: Internal Security Service.
NVV: Dutch Association of Trade Unions, the social-democratic union federation. Merged with catholic NKV and is now known as FNV.
EVC: United Labour Central, the communist union. Disbanded 1964 after years of struggle over it between Paul de Groot and the opposition.
Bridge Group: opposition within the CPN. Denounced as "British spies" in 1958 and expelled. Formed the Socialist Workers Party.
Socialist Workers Party: party of former CPN oppositionists, disbanded 1965. Some members went on to join the Pacifist Socialist Party.
Paul de Groot: Jewish "stalinist" head of the party. Skilled intellectual, journalist, politician and anti-revisionist. Became more alienated from the party towards the end of his life. In the 1970s, he blamed the eurocommunist leadership for an electoral defeat, which removed his honourary membership.

Anyway, without further ado:

How to cut off the cops?

The Internal Security Service (BVD) has used all the likely and unlikely means to try and create contradictions within the CPN and split it up. There are ways to make this tactic fail.

1. Several BVD reports show that they used "a network of informers, who managed to gain the desired information in the family circle, at work, at the football or fisherman's associations, in the school board or neighbourhood committee." By 'desired information', the BVD means the possible differences in opinions within the CPN. In places where the rules were obeyed in the strictest way, like the Political Bureau of the CPN, the BVD was unable to find out these differences. The BVD makes several frustrated notes that party leader Paul de Groot never told his wife anything, and that important conversations with other comrades were always done during "a walk in the park". Conclusion: discussion is one of the engines of party life, but there is no reason to be loose-lipped to the outside world about it.

2. It took the BVD a long time to form an opposition group. It began with informal contacts, phonecalls, going out, walks, dinners, finally leading to organized faction meetings. Looking back, the BVD wonders if it had not been too early for the opposition group "The Bridge" to leave the CPN. The BVD says that it would perhaps have been better to strengthen the opposition within the CPN. Conclusion: factionalism and 'mutual favours among friends' are means used by the police to make the party explode.

3. The BVD used all sorts of 'personal' information to make the communists and party sympathizers rise against party leader Paul de Groot. One police story was that De Groot had transported one of his closest comrades to East Berlin for an operation, against the advice of his doctor and close friends. These sort of stories were meant to prove that De Groot was acting like a loose cannon and a 'stalinist'. Conclusion: personal slanders weaken the party and create a climate where splits become possible.

4. The BVD made ceaseless propaganda for "an open discussion", "a free debate", "a free and democratic discussion", to publicize as many contradictions within the party as possible. It called for a "critical spirit" among party members, by which the cops actually meant that party members had to act against their leadership. They tried to ridiculize loyal communists, who formed the great majority of the CPN members, as "followers of De Groot" and "supporters of a stalinist party model". Conclusion: the principles of the communist party say that the party should be defended in public, even if one disagrees with a collective decision. The CPN's experience proves that this is a golden rule.

5. The BVD reports say that reconciliatory and lazy attitudes of party militants serve the police and the opposition group around The Bridge. Party members did not report each others' loose lips and the publication of internal discussions. They shrugged their shoulders when party members violated the basic principles. The BVD writes that the party leadership thereby did not get a correct view of violations, making it much easier for the police to have its way. Conclusion: acting against violations and reporting them is the best method to prevent the cops from using these violations.

6. The BVD had no problem to use the 'free' press. The head of the BVD, Einthoven, writes in his memoires: "The editor of Het Vrije Volk would regularly write an article based on our data against all the propaganda of the far left. Therefore, my relationship with the then editor was very pleasant." (1) Conclusion: all communists should study the undermining techniques of the police, such as the use of the 'free' press, to recognize them.

(1) Cited in Wil van der Schans, Hun crisis was de onze niet. Internationale crises en binnenlandse veiligheid, 1945-1960, Kleintje Muurkrant, September 1994.

Source (http://www.solidaire.org/international/article.phtml?section=A2AAAGBG&object_id=23006)


Well...thats a load of crap.

First off all...the whole dispute escalated over the role of the EVC. Which was losening its ties with the party and lost members everytime it followed party line. Especially after the situation in Hungary the call for autonomy grew. Thats the background. The opposition against De Groot was already there. This opposition focussed around Brandsen.

Second off all...De Groot was a stout supporter of Stalinism and there are many documents accreditting to that. He did want to counter destalinisation and restore the party discipline according to that line.

Second off all...Brandenburg...the one you said he supposedly sent to Berlin in secret. What actually happened was this. Brandenburg was declared beyong help by dutch doctors. De Groot was desolate about losing their commrad. De Groot had two specialists flown in from Moscow to do a second opinion. But these specialist confirmed the diagnosis of the Dutch doctors. Hoping for a sort of miracle cure De Groot arranged a visti to a Berlin hospital. And Brandenburg DID go...accompanied by his wife, Rina Hak (who later testified to this), a nurse (Noortje Diamand), Jaques Hoekstra (a doctor) and Henk and Joop de Wolff (both oparty representatives...and for everybody who studied the history of the CPN very well known). This whole event was neither a lie nor a manufactured tale which was executed in secret....but something which is documented in the archives of the CPN (IISG...go there) What is true however is that he did not inform the following opponents: Wagenaar; Ben Polak; Brandsen. There was no contra advice from his doctors. He was simply given up.


In the conflict which is mentioned here....De Groot ordered Verreijt to denounce Gerben Wagenaar and Herman Gortzak and the opposition to his restoration of Stalinism and vanguardism politics as BVD agents. de Groot wanted to establish party dominance over the EVC.

Verreijt refused to do so stating he did not want to denounce anybody as a secret service spy on false grounds because its a tactic resorted to too quickly. He learned about his membership cancellation through the paper: "de waarheid".

A year later the whole conflict came to a head. And let to slanderous articles and statements being released about Barndsen and co. They then left the party.

It has always been De Groots intention to remove them from the party and the party even stooped so far as to issue official
party information denouncing the whole group which later formed the "bridge" as traitors and collaborators during WWII....they (especially Marcus Bakker...who later admitted that these were all lies and actually accused all members of the resistance leadership as being imperialist collaborators and fascist sympathisers....even implicating Wagenaar....but leaving Jaap Brandenburg out of the accusations.

All memberships were cancelled....and this let directly to a schism in the parliamentary faction of the CPN (some cancelled members were members of parliament).

Bakker and Wolff later admitted these were false allegations which were not based on facts but were designed to oust the opposition form the party including any person who could oppose de Groots position in Moscow (Wagenaar).

It was also Marcus Bakker who later declared De Groot had always been a Stalinist, never wanted destalinisation, wanted to incorporate the EVC into the party and was directly respobsible for the split.

Yes...there was BVD infiltration in both the CPN and the EVC and some of the members of the Brug were BVD informants and infiltrators...but so were some of the ones left in the CPN.

Fact remains...there would never have been a split if the slanderous and base allegations of treason had not been made.

The Bridge did not split...The Bridge was thrown out.

[tanklv]

I've just logged on - so I haven't looked thru the whole thread yet.

Pigs are generally larger and more "fit" looking than the average person - even the women...

They also somehow refuse to leave their uniform boots at home - these are usually "military issue" type dark boots.

And they are usually "middle age" - late 20's to early 40's tops - no pigs are young teens or old persons...

On Edit:

IF ARRESTED - NEVER - EVER - SAY ANYTHING - AT ALL - EVER.

Even if you're innocent, and have "nothing to hide" - never ever talk. Just say "I have nothing to say" and "I want my lawyer now!" And repeat this OFTEN!

Watch this video - it's a half hour - but well worth it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

[kashkin]

I guess it depends. I was at a BDS rally, and some of the undercover pigs were quite easy to spot. One guy stood in the middle speaking straight into his mic, not even trying to hide the fact. Of course, there could have been others who were better at blending in, or the former was supposed to draw attention.

[R_P_A_S]

I was wondering if there are any key tips and type of behavior or language activist and revolutionaries should be wary about when they are meeting to plan actions or just to discuss politics and there's a feeling that we have possibly been infiltrated by a cop or two..

There are claims that 12 undercover detectives infiltrated Occupy LA a couple weeks before the raid. Lately I look around the GA's and wonder who could be a cop? How can people address this issue without falling into paranoia.. "everyone is a cop".. Also does anyone know if they are require to tell us if they are cops if we have a suspicion? Like "show us your badge" Do you have a wire? etc etc?

[ellipsis]

merged into sticky.

[Chambered Word]

Also does anyone know if they are require to tell us if they are cops if we have a suspicion? Like "show us your badge" Do you have a wire? etc etc?

My understanding is that this is a legal fiction and undercover cops aren't legally obliged to tell you that they are such, but I'm not 100% sure, especially about recording devices etc I imagine it's the same basic principle for those anyway.

[Smyg]

My understanding is that this is a legal fiction


Fiction.

_4CydRUG8G0

[La Comédie Noire]

Cops are usually really easy to spot because they're 30ish beefy, crew cut types, which sucks for me because I'm a beefy white kid who wears my hair short (no tattoos whatsoever) and sure enough I've gotten plenty of paranoid looks.

[ellipsis]

As far as outing, a local group suspected they had been infiltrated and a suspected specific member of the group. So they staged a fake protest and fed that info to him. Long story short, the cops cracked down hard on a protest that wasn't happening. national news.

[Tim Cornelis]

What you need to do is kick a person you suspect of being a cop against both his shinbones from behind, if he's a cop he will have a gun there and you will kick the velcro of the holster loose and it will drop to the floor.

Alternatively, tap that person around the waste to feel if they have a gun.

That's how they rolled in the 80s, so I've heard.

[NewLeft]

Only a pig is stupid enough to wear white to an anarchist rally (G20 lol).

[ellipsis]

What you need to do is kick a person you suspect of being a cop against both his shinbones from behind, if he's a cop he will have a gun there and you will kick the velcro of the holster loose and it will drop to the floor.

Alternatively, tap that person around the waste to feel if they have a gun.

That's how they rolled in the 80s, so I've heard.

I think informants are more common than agent infiltrators, i could be wrong.

I wouldn't go around assaulting suspected cops, unless you like felonies.

[freakazoid]

As far as outing, a local group suspected they had been infiltrated and a suspected specific member of the group. So they staged a fake protest and fed that info to him. Long story short, the cops cracked down hard on a protest that wasn't happening. national news.

Win. :lol:

[Tim Cornelis]

I think informants are more common than agent infiltrators, i could be wrong.

I wouldn't go around assaulting suspected cops, unless you like felonies.

It's not that kinda kick, but more a 'I-accidentally-kicked-you-when-walking' kinda kick, ya know? I'm pretty sure that's not a felony.

[Ele'ill]

As far as outing, a local group suspected they had been infiltrated and a suspected specific member of the group. So they staged a fake protest and fed that info to him. Long story short, the cops cracked down hard on a protest that wasn't happening. national news.

How did they know it was him that relayed the info to the cops?

[ellipsis]

How did they know it was him that relayed the info to the cops?

This is third hand, at least that I got this info, so i dunno. I would guess that most people in this org had worked together before on other projects.

[An archist]

Only a pig is stupid enough to wear white to an anarchist rally (G20 lol).
*ahem

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/brakke123/nopasaran-3.jpg

[Sasha]

*ahem

[IMG]http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/brakke123/nopasaran-3.jpg

You'r to crusty to be a pig, you just cant be arsed to stick to the dresscode :D

Its one of the reasons i plugged my ears though, i got suspecious looks way to often... Ah well, so is the faith if you wind down your activism a bit. Two years ago I was working friendly discount security at a big squatter festival with some mates from our collective based security company (in uniform since we are obliged to do so by dutch law) and we spotted this benefit distro stall for AFA prague, being all (ex-) AFA stewards (our first uniforms years ago even had the afa logo on it) we emeditly desended on them to shell out some serious cash for tshirts and cds and score some posters and stickers etc. Scared the living shits out of the poor chech antifascists running the distro who suddenly where getting stormed by a bunch of exited hefty bald guys in black paramilitary clothing :laugh:
But hey, hindsight got fingered for a cop last time we met too, i even had to intervene before he got kicked from the meeting point :laugh:

[Annoyingbeast]

Big Giveaways
Their Accent. is it put on? abit posh? out of town?
Their Shoes. New? Shiny?
Their Hair.
Their Age. abit older? trying to be younger? abit overweight?
Encouraging Violence. Encouraging you to go down a certain street. Not doing these things themselves.
Asking Questions. usually very subtle "you come to protests often? haha" who are the main guys then?" they can be over friendly and smiling.
Talking to cops.
Your Gut. sometimes you can just tell.

Notice the signs? do not hesitate to tell a friend straight away. ask others if they know him/her.
You and maybe one or two others confront the possible cop. ask them questions. Appear angry and keep on asking no matter the responses. then simply walk off, they'll realise there cover is blown and leave.
When you ask them questions in an aggresive manner, have your friends look around for any other pigs looking at them. any eye contact between the cop and anyone nearby?
Come to a decsision with people you know well.
Tell them to leave. walk away from them. Dont take a risk.

Once the informer is ejected from a group and the cops find out, your group will become a target for police. expect them to go on the offensive after this and arrest members from your group.
know the local area, identify escape routes and hiding places for your group.
plan on a local landmark to regroup at.
Brief your group on what to do if arrested.
make sure you trust your group, and remember the smaller the better.:)

[PhoenixAsh]

But hey, hindsight got fingered for a cop last time we met too, i even had to intervene before he got kicked from the meeting point :laugh:

:D I remember.

Still have no clue why :D

[Ele'ill]

Big Giveaways
Their Accent. is it put on? abit posh? out of town?
Their Shoes. New? Shiny?
Their Hair.
Their Age. abit older? trying to be younger? abit overweight?
Encouraging Violence. Encouraging you to go down a certain street. Not doing these things themselves.
Asking Questions. usually very subtle "you come to protests often? haha" who are the main guys then?" they can be over friendly and smiling.
Talking to cops.
Your Gut. sometimes you can just tell.

Notice the signs? do not hesitate to tell a friend straight away. ask others if they know him/her.
You and maybe one or two others confront the possible cop. ask them questions. Appear angry and keep on asking no matter the responses. then simply walk off, they'll realise there cover is blown and leave.
When you ask them questions in an aggresive manner, have your friends look around for any other pigs looking at them. any eye contact between the cop and anyone nearby?
Come to a decsision with people you know well.
Tell them to leave. walk away from them. Dont take a risk.

If there's one thing that infiltrators will do to destroy a group it's get the 'who's the cop' game going. Yeah it's always a good idea to kinda watch and listen to people genuinely but once the fingers start pointing it's game over.



make sure you trust your group, and remember the smaller the better.:)

This here is the best way to avoid the problems associated with the infiltrating undercover piggly wigglies. Don't think you're gonna be able to plan super militant ninja actions with 400 people all in the same group without running into cop problems. Know your affinity group.

[Sasha]

:D I remember.

Still have no clue why :D

Huh, you where about twice as tall and twice as wide as most people there and for sure twice as fit as everybody. You obviously showered and wore a white sweater in a block existing out of crusty blackblockers and even crustier hippies and oh Yeah no'one knew you
:D

[The Douche]

Huh, you where about twice as tall and twice as wide as most people there and for sure twice as fit as everybody. You obviously showered and wore a white sweater in a block existing out of crusty blackblockers and even crustier hippies and oh Yeah no'one knew you
:D

My friend said that he was talking to members from The Invisible Committee when they were touring the states, and they told a story about being in a bloc in Germany and they started to throw rocks/bottles or whatever, but nobody knew who they were and they just got shoved out of the bloc and left standing there like "what?".

[NewLeft]

At g20 Toronto, they talked to each other..

[GoddessCleoLover]

I agree with Mari3L that the guy at the demo who is raising questions about "who is the cop" is probably one himself. Raising suspicions about the bona fides of people is probably the single most effective way to divide and demoralize a revolutionary group.

[PhoenixAsh]

Huh, you where about twice as tall and twice as wide as most people there and for sure twice as fit as everybody. You obviously showered and wore a white sweater in a block existing out of crusty blackblockers and even crustier hippies and oh Yeah no'one knew you
:D

and to make matters worse it was a white polo shirt
:laugh::laugh:

but it did have a nice RAAN symbol on it

[Winkers Fons]

I am mistaken for a cop all the time since I drive an ex-police Crown Vic. I'm sure I made people at the local occupy event a little nervous when I drove by.

[marl]

I cannot recall if I've posted this story before, but my grandmother was attending UC Berkley during the 1960's learning Slovakian and Russian (from pro-Communist teachers). She had a friend who was Czechoslovak, and she would often get visits from the FBI and CIA, so, as a result, my grandmother recognized the agents. While attending an Oakland free-speech students protest, she noticed that there were agent provocateurs from the CIA on stage, spreading lies. They were pulling off a very generic hippy stereotype and rambling on about how the man keeps them down by stopping swearing, and that's what the newspapers reported on. The movement was discredited because of that.

[Ocean Seal]

Pig: Do you know who detonated that bomb in haymarket square?
You: No, and it is none of our business who did it.

[If you actually did know and answered the question obviously, you have just ratted out a comrade.]

Pig: Hey, how many people were at that illegal march where a lot of property damage occured and several cops were injured?
You: I don't know. Maybe you should read a newspaper.


In these situations I generally find that its best to play it dumb.
Instead of saying its none of your business or read a newspaper, try to just play it like you are not a useful asset to the pigs. If they find out that you might be hiding something, they might try to twist your arm into giving them something that they might want.

Also another thing that I find useful is asking pig questions yourself, and ironically I've never be suspected of being a pig for this but some people have given me the correct answer by saying nothing useful. Sometimes I ask pig questions so I can tell inexperienced leftists later not to answer such questions and the consequences of answering such questions.

[homegrown terror]

there are also a few clues to spot plainclothes officers in everyday, non-action situations. i've gotten pretty good at picking out a few of them:

FBI: ill-fitting office clothes. often a tie that is either too short or too long, short-sleeved dress shirt when long would be more correct, pants too wide and short in the ankle. cheap watches.

DEA: look out for worn-out, poorly fitted baseball caps. cheap windbreaker jackets are also common.

secret service: tucked-in tshirts are a dead giveaway, usually with workout or running pants.

CIA: this one's always confounded me. never been able to pick out a pattern with them. if anyone else has one, please share.

NOTE- none of these is definite, but can be used as a ready stepping stone to concretely identifying a pig in sheep's clothing.

[Ele'ill]

there are also a few clues to spot plainclothes officers in everyday, non-action situations. i've gotten pretty good at picking out a few of them:

FBI: ill-fitting office clothes. often a tie that is either too short or too long, short-sleeved dress shirt when long would be more correct, pants too wide and short in the ankle. cheap watches.

DEA: look out for worn-out, poorly fitted baseball caps. cheap windbreaker jackets are also common.

secret service: tucked-in tshirts are a dead giveaway, usually with workout or running pants.

CIA: this one's always confounded me. never been able to pick out a pattern with them. if anyone else has one, please share.

NOTE- none of these is definite, but can be used as a ready stepping stone to concretely identifying a pig in sheep's clothing.

So they all wear clothes?

[Leftsolidarity]

We outted a cop from an Occupy action. He wasn't hard to spot if you're staying aware of what's around you.

He showed up later than most others, came over from an area where there were multiple police cars lined up, kind of ghosted around the edges of the gathering site looking at people and trying to eavesdrop, didn't try to make conversation other than asking what the plan for the action was, and other little odd things that you should be able to pick up on.

And to out him we didn't need to start shouting "PIG! PIG!". We quietly and calming passed the word along to the people close to use and told them to cover their faces around the man and not to trust him because we assume he is a cop.

He left shortly after realizing that no one was speaking to him and he wasn't getting anything. He showed back up at the Occupy camp once or twice but each time left after a very short time.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Does this apply for Peppa pig?

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

I'm trying to get involved in politics, and join protests in my city. I'm also hoping to find comrades to join. How do I make sure I don't come off like a cop? If I start talking to people, how do I seem legit?

[Leftsolidarity]

I'm trying to get involved in politics, and join protests in my city. I'm also hoping to find comrades to join. How do I make sure I don't come off like a cop? If I start talking to people, how do I seem legit?

Well first, you must brag about all the illegal activities you have done in the past to everyone you meet while continuously talking about how dumb the pigs are for not catching you. Then you should try to pressure everyone else to say all the illegal things they've done. You should also make sure you persistently ask for information about upcoming actions. You MUST try to get people's full names, phone numbers, and house addresses. Then they'll know you're legit for sure.

[Leftsolidarity]

Just fucking. If you want people to think you're legit then just be legit. Don't go in trying to prove anything. Keep your shit cool and don't run your mouth.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Just fucking. If you want people to think you're legit then just be legit. Don't go in trying to prove anything. Keep your shit cool and don't run your mouth.

Haha, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or seriously mean!

Thanks for the advice though! I don't think I look like a cop, so I'll be fine.

[human strike]

Sometimes of course it is painfully obvious. Such as at an illegal street party or rave and that 50-summin guy with the cop haircut and a camera who "lives round the corner" but is not sure where exactly. (In this exact situation we were also able to peak over his shoulder and read the text messages he was receiving about security of nearby shops - almost felt sorry for him he was so amateurish.)

In my experience, the best way of outing a cop though is to just ask them straight out. People who aren't cops tend to take the accusation seriously but don't overreact. Think about how you would react if someone accused you. Would you kick-off or laugh at it? Probably not. Do cops? All the time.

Another good tip btw is to look out for what uniformed cops are doing. If you've just been at a meeting or something and there was a suspicious looking person who nobody knows and then uniformed cops turn up, start searching people or whatever, chances are that person was a cop. Always listen to your instincts with these kinds of things.

[BIXX]

Ok, I just had a meeting with someone who I've been paranoid about for a while. It was a meeting about someone who is supposedly an FBI informant, but now I think the person I was meeting with is one. I am now worried that I said some things that I shouldn't have- any way to cover my ass or am I fucked if this person is an informant?
The person I met with was saying that they were planning on outing this other guy soon, but I'm trying to figure out if they were just trying to gain my trust. According to them, there is an upcoming FBI raid, and to kinda see if it was legit, I asked if it was a response campaign to the Greek squat evictions. Even though I don't see why the FBI would do that, the person I suspect responded with 'yes'.
They did ask pig questions, plus, they had been discussing for a while different types of bugs, but when I suggested that maybe if they are so paranoid then maybe we should do a quick pat down, they got kinda defensive. They asked me and one other person for our addresses to "check if our houses were marked". I never provided this information, but I don't know about my friend.

Am I being ultra paranoid right now or am I justified? And if I am justified, what should I do to cover any possible incrimination?

[o well this is ok I guess]

Ok, I just had a meeting with someone who I've been paranoid about for a while. It was a meeting about someone who is supposedly an FBI informant, but now I think the person I was meeting with is one. I am now worried that I said some things that I shouldn't have- any way to cover my ass or am I fucked if this person is an informant?
The person I met with was saying that they were planning on outing this other guy soon, but I'm trying to figure out if they were just trying to gain my trust. According to them, there is an upcoming FBI raid, and to kinda see if it was legit, I asked if it was a response campaign to the Greek squat evictions. Even though I don't see why the FBI would do that, the person I suspect responded with 'yes'.
They did ask pig questions, plus, they had been discussing for a while different types of bugs, but when I suggested that maybe if they are so paranoid then maybe we should do a quick pat down, they got kinda defensive. They asked me and one other person for our addresses to "check if our houses were marked". I never provided this information, but I don't know about my friend.

Am I being ultra paranoid right now or am I justified? And if I am justified, what should I do to cover any possible incrimination? "Checking if your house is marked"? What the fuck is that?
Bro you really should trust yourself more. This is so copish that it physically hurts.
Just when everyone together say "yo, this dude is asking for addresses to see if we're "marked". That's some fucking bullshit."

[BIXX]

"Checking if your house is marked"? What the fuck is that?
Bro you really should trust yourself more. This is so copish that it physically hurts.
Just when everyone together say "yo, this dude is asking for addresses to see if we're "marked". That's some fucking bullshit."

That's what I thought. I made calls last night and told everyone to avoid the person. No one have addresses, but now I need to try and remember anything I might have said that could be incriminating. I'm gonna be far more careful from here on out. The only reason I didn't attempt to call them out earlier is that they are often the first to go do something illegal, which I figured was a token of innocence until now, when I read this thread.

This has already taught me to be less trustworthy. I figured that I hadn't really been involved in anything that could get me on major charges. I think I'm just gonna avoid this person at all costs and call it good.

[ellipsis]

Good call. Pig or not, they are acting strange

[Thelonious]

The only reason I didn't attempt to call them out earlier is that they are often the first to go do something illegal, which I figured was a token of innocence until now, when I read this thread.


I used to think the same thing when I was younger. I now know that many, if not most undercover cops will routinely break the law, even in the presence of non-cops. Use your intelligence coupled with your "sixth-sense" and as time goes on your pig detection skills will become honed to a point. For now, it is better to err on the side of caution. Be careful!

[Ele'ill]

Ok, I just had a meeting with someone who I've been paranoid about for a while. It was a meeting about someone who is supposedly an FBI informant, but now I think the person I was meeting with is one. I am now worried that I said some things that I shouldn't have- any way to cover my ass or am I fucked if this person is an informant?
The person I met with was saying that they were planning on outing this other guy soon, but I'm trying to figure out if they were just trying to gain my trust. According to them, there is an upcoming FBI raid, and to kinda see if it was legit, I asked if it was a response campaign to the Greek squat evictions. Even though I don't see why the FBI would do that, the person I suspect responded with 'yes'.
They did ask pig questions, plus, they had been discussing for a while different types of bugs, but when I suggested that maybe if they are so paranoid then maybe we should do a quick pat down, they got kinda defensive. They asked me and one other person for our addresses to "check if our houses were marked". I never provided this information, but I don't know about my friend.

Am I being ultra paranoid right now or am I justified? And if I am justified, what should I do to cover any possible incrimination?

The person could be local police or an informant for them or they could be a fed but that all means the same thing. I would find out asap if your friend gave this person their address or yours because getting people to release personal info or info on others is a big cop thing to do or at the very least extremely incompetent and insecure. If you haven't already I would familiarize yourself with a simple game plan in the chance you are arrested, legal contacts or contacts to people who can help you or your friend and whoever else might be at risk, to make the process as comfortable as possible.


Also most importantly don't get sucked into the game of outing everyone around you, don't get sucked into fear culture with wild paranoia, try to stay positive. It is as simple as ceasing to associate with people who make you feel uncomfortable, outing people and getting scared into a panic is exactly what they want.

[tanklv]

One of the New York City pigs that attacked a family out for a drive in NYC a couple Sundays ago was found out to also be an Occupy infiltrator and instigator. Don't have the link, but it was just revealed today.

Yeah cops - they're the best!!! (sarcasm)

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

No, you take them behind the chemical sheds...



There is no universal dominant hand. While most people are right-handed, there are still tons of lefties around. What are you supposed to do about this, ask the person if they're right-handed or left-handed? And what about ambidextrous people?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, btw.

The wristwatch is almost always on the non-dominant hand.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

If anybody just approaches you and asks if you want to make a bomb or if you know where to get guns or something...then you should a) call them out for breaching security culture and b) refuse to have anything to do with this person.

The reason cops try to provoke violence is to discredit the movement in the eyes of the community. The public generally accepts the legitimacy of peaceful protests, but as soon as the public believes that a group is violent or tolerates violent members, it looses all legitimacy in their eyes. One benefit of being the "good guys" is that we have the truth on our side. My truthful answer to this question is something like this:

"Why the hell would you want bombs or guns? This is strictly a non-violent movement trying to alert the public to the dangers of capitalism/imperialism/racism/sexism/etc. If there is any violence here, it will be from the cops. See? They're dressed for violence, but none of us are. Still, I cannot hate them, because they are also victims of the (pick one) paradigm, doing the dirty work of the ruling class without realizing it."

[coda]

Isn't it past time of peaceful protest...

[Leftsolidarity]

Isn't it past time of peaceful protest...

says the pig

[coda]

""says the pig""

No it's reciprocating an equal response to the pig's violence

those who obey the pig, coddle and placate the pig,
end up as bacon on the pig's breakfast table.

[Ele'ill]

There's a big misunderstanding here, they don't want violence. They want to control it, they want to control all actions, they want to know everything that is going on. When they do this, they build a case and entrap people, and have full control over situations. They certainly don't want to be surprised in the street with any tactic that takes the edge and advantage away from them.

[bcbm]

The reason cops try to provoke violence is to discredit the movement in the eyes of the community.

no community has ever resorted to violence? doubtful. and its only violence that is keeping anyone's attention to ferguson or the countless episodes like it.


One benefit of being the "good guys" is that we have the truth on our side.

i don't know that people generally care about 'the truth.'


Still, I cannot hate them, because they are also victims of the (pick one) paradigm, doing the dirty work of the ruling class without realizing it."

ugh

[The Modern Prometheus]

See this is where the so called LumpenProletarian of both the urban inner city variety and the rural variety have the upper hand. Those who have been dealing in the black market for most of their lives out of necessity will of course be much more able to avoid surveillance then someone who has never been immersed in that lifestyle. Which is why if i was ever a member of a group you had better bet that i would drill into new members heads on the first day how to not attract attention, how it's a bad idea to say anything on the net that could be compromising unless it's through really good encryption and only then if you have to, the wonders of payphones where they still exist and also how to spot porkers and if your not sure if they are a porker don't do anything to compromise yourself or more importantly your comrades.

I don't know how good they are south of the border but in Canada pigs are not that great at acting as anything other then pigs. Now they will recruit lowlifes as CI's when needed as they don't act like pigs but always becareful of anyone who seems to eager to do some big thing so to speak that is blatantly illegal. And always keep your fucking mouth shut about anything "coming up" to anyone but your closest comrades. And above all else it must be instilled in any new members why is is wrong on so many levels to rat on your comrades and the dangers of doing such a thing.

[Invader Zim]

How many times must this embarrassing thread be necroed?

[Deep Sea]

Isn't it past time of peaceful protest...

Obviously, but where is the social-base for violence?

Sometimes I wonder if firing bullets into protesting crowds of right-wingers in America would provoke them to violence (if you could somehow blame it on the government, which shouldn't be too hard to do), but I often think their rhetoric is out of touch with their actual willingness to pick up guns against the state.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Obviously, but where is the social-base for violence?

Sometimes I wonder if firing bullets into protesting crowds of right-wingers in America would provoke them to violence (if you could somehow blame it on the government, which shouldn't be too hard to do), but I often think their rhetoric is out of touch with their actual willingness to pick up guns against the state.

They are reactionaries if anything they would just cry out for the nice right wing government that they think they deserve. Of course their rhetoric is empty they have no more intention of taking up arms against the state then i do of going vegetarian. They may very well take up arms to protect the state against perceived threats though.

[Ele'ill]

I belong to a revolutionary forum and a revolutionary political party, obviously I understand the need for acts of violence in the struggle against oppression and exploitation.

No, not specifically regarding you personally, but not obviously.




I was pointing out that the person who feels the need to say that publicly or push that on activists conducting legal activities should be looked at with suspicion.

yeah honestly saying its past time of peaceful protest isn't pushing anything its suggesting that protest and peace and non-escalation within revolutionary forums and political parties is the status quo and so long as communities, affinities, groups, deciding tactics on their own is considered taboo and hush hush just because its openly confrontational and non-apologetic towards maintaining some face to preserve the organization, where those who have had enough of the hippy/white liberal hijacking of their survival are immediately labeled as cops, it works directly to the advantage of the state by limiting an entire spectrum of options and its fucking dumb

[Ele'ill]

It was a general criticism of dogmatic non-confrontation which then resulted in immediate and literal bad jacketing which is why so many of us don't take organizers and activists seriously.

[coda]

Yes, indeed, what Mari3L is saying....so true,

And in the literal sense, peaceful protest is currently a thing of the past. It's beyond choice if it's even possible in respect to organizing against the ruling class, as the pigs play their hand first with riot gear, gas, batons and the like. Rather, you really have to go prepared with a strategy to deflect the oncoming carnage.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Yes, indeed, what Mari3L is saying....so true,

And in the literal sense, peaceful protest is currently a thing of the past. It's beyond choice if it's even possible in respect to organizing against the ruling class, as the pigs play their hand first with riot gear, gas, batons and the like. Rather, you really have to go prepared with a strategy to deflect the oncoming carnage.

Well a defensive strategy like say the Black Panthers had has been shown to work against the pigs. But one has to let them get the first hit in for propaganda purposes.

I wonder where all those right wingers that said they needed guns to protect against a tyrannical government are? They must all be on vacation during shit like this :laugh:

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

Isn't it past time of peaceful protest...

1st, nonviolent and peaceful are not necessarily the same thing. A protest can be disruptive without our side resorting to violence.

More importantly, in any clash of violence we lose. It's a question of resources--both human and material--they have more. They have hundreds of thousands of trained soldiers, armed to the teeth with very effective weapons. Plus ships, aircraft, armored land vehicles, communication and logistical support. And we have what, exactly? A handful of sufficiently disgruntled people to throw rocks or light a fire? And as soon as the movement becomes violent, most of our supporters will instantly change sides. We're not the damned Weathermen, and their complete lack of success ought to be an example.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

no community has ever resorted to violence?

I certainly said nothing to suggest that, as it is not really relevant to my point.

[Andrew_Zito]

Your post is at best deceiving ignorant and simply lacking what you should do:

1. is figure it all out and second guess everything you do so by the time you figured it out the demons might go away.

2. Read "A Man Called Thursday" or the recording is better

3. Importantly do not under estimate and always respect your enemy as it prevents you from being as arrogant as you can be in your presumptions that you are so clever when they have infiltrated far better prepared and skilled people than you

4. humble yourself and repeat how ignorant and stupid you are but that you must go on if for no better reason

5. and most of all do not commit suicide unless it is absolutely necessary as in you would be under the threat of giving up information that might do other people harm. Feel reassured that you could always commit suicide by biting your own tongue off.