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Faceless
25th October 2007, 14:02
If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you? Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.

Devrim
25th October 2007, 14:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:02 pm
I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you?
Based on my last trip to the UK that is exactly what they do have. And it seems to work...sort of. :lol:
Devrim

Faceless
25th October 2007, 14:45
Well, there are a number of companies which operate on the British rail network providing the services. In themselves they act as strictly centralised bodies. But the actual infrastructure of the British railway system is owned by Network Rail and the operating of the railways is controlled by a whole series of centrally determined regulations. And how could it be otherwise? Indeed, attempts to make compatible rail systems between nations requires a regulated standard of track widths and methods of operating the railways. How could it be otherwise? And if we wanted to build a new line connecting two distant places, a concern for which the whole nation has an interest, how can we possibly talk about decentralisation?

Faceless
25th October 2007, 14:58
Note:
I completely advocate making the national rail operators democratically accountable but I think a high degree of centralisation in this area of the economy, as with most others, is inevitable and infact desirable.

Panda Tse Tung
25th October 2007, 15:06
The problem isn't just the railways. But the lack of centralized control over the economy will create an anarchistic way of producing comparable to that of a Capitalist economy.

Marsella
25th October 2007, 15:20
If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you? Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by decentralised train services. Do you mean a train service that is not ran by the government?

Well if you think that such a system would fail you would be incorrect.

Where I live the train system is privately owned. And it is just as effective.

Now under a train-system which is owned collectively, the future planning of train services would simply be a matter of those in authority. If a area needed an expanded railway network then the community would express such.


Well, there are a number of companies which operate on the British rail network providing the services. In themselves they act as strictly centralised bodies. But the actual infrastructure of the British railway system is owned by Network Rail and the operating of the railways is controlled by a whole series of centrally determined regulations.

Why would such a Network Railway body be non-existent under communism? Numerous authorities would be kept. For example, the Medical Associations, the Education Associations. Anything which is beneficial should be kept. Such bodies have expert knowledge and would be expected to set minimum standards.

This isn't an planned economy its just plain common sense. And I think we should distinguish between services which are beneficial to society (e.g transport, education, health) compared to typical capitalist businesses.

And of course they would be democratically accountable. The wages of the officials would reflect no more than that of an average workers.

And there are other models which could be used to make decisions which require some sort of national authority. For example demarchy.

So to put it simply, the train planning would be determined by those who already determine it : engineers etc.

blackstone
25th October 2007, 15:50
I'd like to discuss a bit on how train services would work in a socialist society with a decentralized and participatory economics and social planning. I hope to show just how it is possible to generate train schedules and other functions without central planning or a central authority.


If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you? Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.

I think you have a misconception of what it means to be decentralized and the absence of authority.

Here's what Bakunin had to say,


Does it follow that I reject all authority? Far from me such a thought. In the matter of boots, I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads, I consult that of the architect or engineer.


I bow before the authority of special men because it is imposed upon me by my own reason. I am conscious of my inability to grasp, in all its details and positive developments, any very large portion of human knowledge.

-God and the State (1876)

The train federation, which consists of delegates from various train stations will adjust to each other through a system of requests and proposals. These proposals not only have to be ratified by the train federation, but also by the communities that it directly effects. This is obviously because any changes in the timetables may have a ripple effect. If you want to change the schedule for train heading from Newark to Irvington, this will effect the schedule for train heading from Orange to Cherry Hill and so on. Which may cause an inconvenience to workers.

So what would need to happen is community councils and regional meetings of the delegates of the communities, need to develop their plans for transportation (as well as other consumptions), and likewise, worker self-management organizations would need to put forward their initial proposals terms of what they propose to do. Again, through a democratic and participatory process of proposals, requests, rejections, amendments, a time table that benefits majority of people will be developed.

Through these proposals and by analyzing the data, facilitators note how there is a increase in the percentage of people who need to travel to Cherry Hill to Newark at a specific time range and a decrease of a need to travel to Cherry Hill to Passaic. Once the effects are examined and ratified by all parties, the new timetables are updated to adjust to these changes.

Again, this is just my conception of how decentralized planning of timetables will take place. Others may have other options and that's fine. This is just an abstract framework.

RGacky3
25th October 2007, 17:39
If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you? Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.

Since train services is a community service, meaning its there for everyone, it would have to be done democratically, certain people who work in the train service, will set up plans they think are reasonable, and the people vote on it. Not such a hard task.

YSR
25th October 2007, 18:49
Well, the trains were controlled by the union during the Spanish Revolution, and they seemed to work pretty well.

That is to say more formally: I generally agree with blackstone. I suggest giving control to the union, in consultation with the people in the areas where the train runs.

The Feral Underclass
25th October 2007, 20:19
You don't understand the basis of anarchisms opposition to centralisation.

Read a fucking book you ****.

JazzRemington
25th October 2007, 20:20
Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 25, 2007 12:49 pm
Well, the trains were controlled by the union during the Spanish Revolution, and they seemed to work pretty well.

That is to say more formally: I generally agree with blackstone. I suggest giving control to the union, in consultation with the people in the areas where the train runs.
If I recall correctly, the tram and train services run the anarchists were more efficient than before the war. They also managed to get the services up and running within a few short days (I think it was between 2-4).

Organizing a train schedule might be a mess in the beginning, but eventually things will become smoother. I think there are programs where people can design routes, but I'm not completely sure.

RGacky3
25th October 2007, 22:57
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 25, 2007 07:19 pm
You don't understand the basis of anarchisms opposition to centralisation.

Read a fucking book you ****.
I'd love to hear this guy talking about Anarchism to his fellow workers:

"But Mr The Anarchist Tension, would'nt there be chaos in Anarchy"

"Why don't you Eat your Own shit and fuck yourself in your own asshole you ****face, If there was a retarded monkey on crack for 10 years and I hit him on the head with a hammer he would be smarter than you you fuckign horrible excuse for a human."

"Mr. Anarchist Tension, would you like milk with your coffee?"

"What do I look like you fucking retarded Asshole, I hope you die you fucking roach while I fuck your mother."

The Feral Underclass
26th October 2007, 10:24
Originally posted by RGacky3+October 25, 2007 10:57 pm--> (RGacky3 @ October 25, 2007 10:57 pm)
The Anarchist [email protected] 25, 2007 07:19 pm
You don't understand the basis of anarchisms opposition to centralisation.

Read a fucking book you ****.
I'd love to hear this guy talking about Anarchism to his fellow workers:

"But Mr The Anarchist Tension, would'nt there be chaos in Anarchy"

"Why don't you Eat your Own shit and fuck yourself in your own asshole you ****face, If there was a retarded monkey on crack for 10 years and I hit him on the head with a hammer he would be smarter than you you fuckign horrible excuse for a human."

"Mr. Anarchist Tension, would you like milk with your coffee?"

"What do I look like you fucking retarded Asshole, I hope you die you fucking roach while I fuck your mother." [/b]
:lol:

Faceless is an antagonistic prick, whereas any person who wanted to genuinely learn and be educated about anarchism wouldn't be.

Louis Pio
26th October 2007, 12:49
Faceless is an antagonistic prick, whereas any person who wanted to genuinely learn and be educated about anarchism wouldn't be.


So you never genuinly wanted to learn about anarchism according to yourself? Im perplexed :blink:

The Feral Underclass
26th October 2007, 13:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 12:49 pm

Faceless is an antagonistic prick, whereas any person who wanted to genuinely learn and be educated about anarchism wouldn't be.


So you never genuinly wanted to learn about anarchism according to yourself? Im perplexed :blink:
I was referring to the context of this thread. Faceless isn't interested in understanding, he just wants an argument.

Louis Pio
26th October 2007, 19:18
Maybe he just has a hard time understanding practical implementation of anarchism like so many others have, even anarchists

rouchambeau
26th October 2007, 19:38
If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you?
Wow, what a great question! I sure hope I have the opportunity to answer it!

Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.
Oops. Looks like you've already done that for me.

Louis Pio
26th October 2007, 20:03
So I take it the planning should be based on consensus democracy and with every local branch deciding for themselves or what rouchambeau? Never to know if people like you don't even want to just outline it, but of course we should all magically know?

The Feral Underclass
26th October 2007, 21:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 07:18 pm
Maybe he just has a hard time understanding practical implementation of anarchism like so many others have, even anarchists
Perhaps he did but unfortunately Faceless doesn't actually care, which begs the question, why start the thread in the first place?

The Feral Underclass
26th October 2007, 21:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:03 pm
So I take it the planning should be based on consensus democracy and with every local branch deciding for themselves or what rouchambeau? Never to know if people like you don't even want to just outline it, but of course we should all magically know?
The economic organisation in Spain is a fine model by which future anarchist societies can be formed.

All industry and land in Anarchist areas were collectivised and eventually delegates were called to Plenum's where the organisation of production and distribution was planned.

Anarchists don't have a problem with "centralised" economic planning but in a decentralised way; meaning industries centralise within their industry federations and plan their production and distribution, perhaps in co-ordination with other federated industries. This is free from a centralised government or institution of political authority.

Federations have no political power and are mandated solely with planning production and distribution. I would imagine this would be done in co-ordination with communities in order for them to organise what would become socially necessary work.

Hopefully decisions would be made by consensus.

The Spanish Civil War: Anarchism in Action (http://struggle.ws/spain/pam_ch2.html)


Never to know if people like you don't een want to just outline it, but of course we should all magically know?

In future, if you want to know how anarchists wish to organise the economic structure of a society, ask. Don't start a thread accusing anarchists of something that isn't true and then use a facetious example like "train times" as a basis to start a conversation on the subject.

If you do that, you just look like a ****.

blackstone
30th October 2007, 14:24
Originally posted by JazzRemington+October 25, 2007 02:20 pm--> (JazzRemington @ October 25, 2007 02:20 pm)
Young Stupid [email protected] 25, 2007 12:49 pm
Well, the trains were controlled by the union during the Spanish Revolution, and they seemed to work pretty well.

That is to say more formally: I generally agree with blackstone. I suggest giving control to the union, in consultation with the people in the areas where the train runs.
If I recall correctly, the tram and train services run the anarchists were more efficient than before the war. They also managed to get the services up and running within a few short days (I think it was between 2-4).

Organizing a train schedule might be a mess in the beginning, but eventually things will become smoother. I think there are programs where people can design routes, but I'm not completely sure. [/b]
Tom Wetzel describes the Revolutionary Railway Federation, which was the organization that operated the railway network, in his brilliant essay Workers Power and the Spanish Revolution. He states,


The Madrid-Zaragoza-Alicante (MZA) was a large, privately owned railway
that operated the mainlines from Madrid to Barcelona and Valencia, and the mainline along the Mediterranean coast. On July 20th, with street-fighting still going on in Barcelona, militants from the CNT railway national industrial union told the management of the MZA they were fired. The workers were taking over. The electric commuter railway operating out of Barcelona was also seized, and the railways were merged together into a single network. This takeover was initiated by the CNT union but the UGT soon came along. Each union had about an equal proportion of the railway workforce. The train operating crews, who had a more militant tradition, tended to belong to the CNT. The station agents, railway clerks, and yardmasters tended to belong to the UGT.

The new organization formed to operate the railway network was called the Revolutionary Railway Federation. The coordinating committee - called the Revolutionary Committee - consisted of six UGT members and six CNT members. Except for a full-time executive director, they all continued to work at their regular job. For each section of the railway line and each station, a committee was formed of delegados elected by a local assembly. In the bi-weekly assemblies, the proposals of the committee would be either approved or disapproved by the workers.

The railways had been operating at a loss even before the civil war, due to growing automobile use. To improve efficiency of the transport network, the railway federation undertook to do an extensive survey of transport services with the assistance of the CNT transport unions. They mapped the various bus, motor freight, and commercial shipping services. They discovered that various poor rural areas had no public transport services. Meanwhile, there was multiple duplication of services along the coastal corridor. As a result, the CNT transport unions agreed on a plan to eliminate some services competing with the railway such as the coastal maritime shipping line, and create new bus and motor freight services for unserved rural areas. The railway built a new branch line in a rural area of Aragon to serve both the villages and the nearby labor militia on the Aragon front(33).
http://libcom.org/library/workers-power-an...tion-tom-wetzel (http://libcom.org/library/workers-power-and-the-spanish-revolution-tom-wetzel)

Schrödinger's Cat
31st October 2007, 08:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 01:02 pm
If you don't believe in a centally planned economy, how would train timetables be drawn up? I mean, you can't have decentralised train services can you? Someone has to have the authority to plan the way that a nation's train service operates.
From bottom-up, not up-down.