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Sacrificed
24th October 2007, 01:50
Quite simply—I want honesty. I am not, as one man with the best of intentions has desired to represent me, I am not Christian severity contrasted with Christian leniency. Not at all. I am neither severity nor leniency—I am mere human honesty. I want honesty. If that is what this race and this generation want, if it will uprightly, honestly, frankly, openly, directly rebel against Christianity and say to God, "We can, but we will not be subject to this authority"—but observe that it must be done uprightly, honestly, frankly, openly, directly—well then, strange as it may seem, I am for it; for honesty is what I want. And wherever there is honesty I can take part. An honest rebellion against Christianity can only be made when one honestly admits what Christianity is and how one is related to it.

- Søren Kierkegaard, "What Do I Want?"

The chief Christian virtue, above even agape, is honesty. Kierkegaard, a devout believer, utterly despised the 'Christiandom' of his day because it demanded of all men that they be equally, democratically, religious; you were to profess belief and, so long as you took no action directly opposed to the stated belief, you were a 'Christian'.

Not so for Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard wrestled with his faith. Calling it a 'sickness unto death', faith, for Kierkegaard, was not some frivolous 'lovefest', but a deep and intensely personal relationship with a force beyond all human comprehension. By this I most emphatically do not mean the sort of 'personal relationship' that modern sheep feel "distinguishes Christianity from religion", but an intensely, almost unutterably horrific encounter with the divine.

Kierkegaard said this of faith, writing in his essay Practice in Christianity:


Just as the concept "faith" is an altogether distinctively Christian term, so in turn is "offense" an altogether distinctively Christian term relating to faith. The possibility of offense is the crossroad, or it is like standing at the crossroad. From the possibility of offense, one turns either to offense or to faith, but one never comes to faith except from the possibility of offense...

What I here mean to propose is something almost 'Rasputinian'. It certainly is Khlystian, insofar as the Khlysty sect of Tzarist Russia held something similar to this as one of their doctrines:

No Christian above disagree with Kierkegaard. Faith without sin is utterly pointless: there is nothing to be redeemed from. And yet Christians want always to make the world 'sinless'! Many want to ban pornography, ban homosexuality (subtly, through banning homosexual marriage), and altogether blot out anything which might lead one to sin or might otherwise contribute to a 'falling away from God'.

My point here is this:

1. It is dishonest - it is a wanting-to-hide-from-oneself, an absolute denial of one's own' 'sinful impulses'; and, also,

2. It is an implicit rejection of faith: it utterly denies that which makes faith possible.

To put it simply, the conservative Christian is not a Christian. He belongs to Christianity - but he is, himself, no Christian.

This is the challenge. Can you not only agree upon the necessity of sin, but will such, as a means to faith? This means not only not refraining from proselytization, but actively repudiating all efforts to subtly (and not-so-subtly) enforce social morality in the personal religious sphere?

MarxSchmarx
24th October 2007, 07:06
It is an implicit rejection of faith: it utterly denies that which makes faith possible.

Not quite. Faith is, for these nutjobs, the ability to OVERCOME the temptations of the flesh. The faithful do not deny such temptations exist. Rather, they claim to rely on faith to deal with these temptations. There is no logical contradiction here.

I mean, once you believe it is all about correcting original sin, you pretty much box yourself in viz. conduct, right?

Just to make absolutely clear, I still think most of the faithful believe in hogwash. Of course,it is precisely this irrational element to faith that makes it so problematic.

Sacrificed
24th October 2007, 08:53
That's not quite what I mean.

One cannot be saved without first committing a sin and then falling into despair over it (despair defined as concern for one's personal salvation). A 'sinless one' would, quite simply, not be 'savable' and therefore could not be a Christian.

Expressed as an equation:

f = s + d, where 'f' = faith, 's' is sin and 'd' is despair.

Thus one sees the absolute necessity of both sin and despair in coming to salvation. Kierkegaard is therefore correct when he disparages all attempts to moralize the individual by means of the State apparatus, as the Church of Denmark were wont to do in his day. Rasputin took this basic exercise one step further - naturally without having read Kierkegaard, having come into it on his own - and actively sinned in order to be saved. This is much more agreeable to me.

I personally do not condemn Christianity because it is irrational. I myself am an irrationalist. I condemn it on three grounds:

1. It is a religion of transcendence, which Kierkegaard would call the 'paradoxical';

2. It is life denying; and,

3. It is essentialist, e.g. soul-belief.

It is also not self-consistent, as demonstrated above. There are very few Christians whom I admire; Rasputin and Kierkegaard are among the few precisely because they were consistent.

ÑóẊîöʼn
24th October 2007, 18:13
Emphasis is miiiiine!


I personally do not condemn Christianity because it is irrational. I myself am an irrationalist.

This is me, laughing at you.

You = http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2038/failxd7.jpg

Sacrificed
24th October 2007, 21:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 05:13 pm
Emphasis is miiiiine!


I personally do not condemn Christianity because it is irrational. I myself am an irrationalist.

This is me, laughing at you.

You = http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2038/failxd7.jpg
I don't care. Marxism and humanism of the weak-kneed Dawkinsonian variety are utterly flawed, through and through. Stick to the topic at hand.

ÑóẊîöʼn
24th October 2007, 22:17
I don't remember broaching the subject of either Marxism or humanism of any variety, I was taking the piss out of you. Why should we take anyone who calls themselves an "irrationalist" seriously?

Also, the "topic at hand" (that is to say, the subject of the first post in this thread) is a load of irrelevant hot air - I think you will find that most of this board's membership are not Christian. Who gives a shit what Kierkegaard thought? Philosophers like him are only remembered because pretentious pseudo-intellectuals like you like to mentally masturbate over such vacuous circle-jerkery.

Sacrificed
25th October 2007, 00:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 09:17 pm
I don't remember broaching the subject of either Marxism or humanism of any variety, I was taking the piss out of you. Why should we take anyone who calls themselves an "irrationalist" seriously?

Also, the "topic at hand" (that is to say, the subject of the first post in this thread) is a load of irrelevant hot air - I think you will find that most of this board's membership are not Christian. Who gives a shit what Kierkegaard thought? Philosophers like him are only remembered because pretentious pseudo-intellectuals like you like to mentally masturbate over such vacuous circle-jerkery.
Strange, that, given that only about three days out of this past semester in my philosophy class were devoted to Marx and Hegel whereas Nietzsche and Kierkegaard both received a full two weeks. Goes to show who has survived the test of time and who hasn't, who will soon be forgotten, who is already dead.

MarxSchmarx
25th October 2007, 08:38
One cannot be saved without first committing a sin and then falling into despair over it (despair defined as concern for one's personal salvation). A 'sinless one' would, quite simply, not be 'savable' and therefore could not be a Christian.

This is like asking if the present king of France is bald. According to Christian theology, we are all born as sinners b/c of original sin. Thus, for Christians there is no such thing as a "sinless" person, no matter what their personal behavior is, basically by definition.

Dr Mindbender
25th October 2007, 12:47
Originally posted by Sacrificed+October 24, 2007 11:26 pm--> (Sacrificed @ October 24, 2007 11:26 pm)
[email protected] 24, 2007 09:17 pm
I don't remember broaching the subject of either Marxism or humanism of any variety, I was taking the piss out of you. Why should we take anyone who calls themselves an "irrationalist" seriously?

Also, the "topic at hand" (that is to say, the subject of the first post in this thread) is a load of irrelevant hot air - I think you will find that most of this board's membership are not Christian. Who gives a shit what Kierkegaard thought? Philosophers like him are only remembered because pretentious pseudo-intellectuals like you like to mentally masturbate over such vacuous circle-jerkery.
Strange, that, given that only about three days out of this past semester in my philosophy class were devoted to Marx and Hegel whereas Nietzsche and Kierkegaard both received a full two weeks. Goes to show who has survived the test of time and who hasn't, who will soon be forgotten, who is already dead. [/b]
all that proves is your lecturer is a pretentious pseudo-intellectual like you.

Jazzratt
25th October 2007, 16:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 11:26 pm
Strange, that, given that only about three days out of this past semester in my philosophy class were devoted to Marx and Hegel whereas Nietzsche and Kierkegaard both received a full two weeks.
Supremely strange, given that when I was doing Philosophy we spent 0 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours and 0 minutes on Kierkegaard. Maybe it's more of an illustration of the differences in curriculum where you are. Given that Hegel and Marx were given more time than Nietzsche annoyed me at the time because I was doing my essay on him but at least now I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt it's just because you had a lecturer who is, as US said, a pretentious pseudo-intellectual.


Goes to show who has survived the test of time and who hasn't, who will soon be forgotten, who is already dead.

All four of the philosophers are already dead, cretin. Given that Nietzsche is only popular to kids going to college and trying to look intelligent by parroting whatever phrases they can find in his "books" (which are essentially self-indulgent compendiums of semi-literate aphorisms) that don't go over their heads (being psuedo-intellectuals they naturally would have no idea what he was talking about most of the time.). It's good he doesn't have many fans outside of the black-beret-and-coffee-shops crowd, given that his idealist philosophies were basically rehashed versions of whatever idealism happened to strike him at the time.

Dean
26th October 2007, 21:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 12:50 am

Quite simply—I want honesty. I am not, as one man with the best of intentions has desired to represent me, I am not Christian severity contrasted with Christian leniency. Not at all. I am neither severity nor leniency—I am mere human honesty. I want honesty. If that is what this race and this generation want, if it will uprightly, honestly, frankly, openly, directly rebel against Christianity and say to God, "We can, but we will not be subject to this authority"—but observe that it must be done uprightly, honestly, frankly, openly, directly—well then, strange as it may seem, I am for it; for honesty is what I want. And wherever there is honesty I can take part. An honest rebellion against Christianity can only be made when one honestly admits what Christianity is and how one is related to it.

- Søren Kierkegaard, "What Do I Want?"

The chief Christian virtue, above even agape, is honesty. Kierkegaard, a devout believer, utterly despised the 'Christiandom' of his day because it demanded of all men that they be equally, democratically, religious; you were to profess belief and, so long as you took no action directly opposed to the stated belief, you were a 'Christian'.

Not so for Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard wrestled with his faith. Calling it a 'sickness unto death', faith, for Kierkegaard, was not some frivolous 'lovefest', but a deep and intensely personal relationship with a force beyond all human comprehension. By this I most emphatically do not mean the sort of 'personal relationship' that modern sheep feel "distinguishes Christianity from religion", but an intensely, almost unutterably horrific encounter with the divine.

Kierkegaard said this of faith, writing in his essay Practice in Christianity:


Just as the concept "faith" is an altogether distinctively Christian term, so in turn is "offense" an altogether distinctively Christian term relating to faith. The possibility of offense is the crossroad, or it is like standing at the crossroad. From the possibility of offense, one turns either to offense or to faith, but one never comes to faith except from the possibility of offense...

What I here mean to propose is something almost 'Rasputinian'. It certainly is Khlystian, insofar as the Khlysty sect of Tzarist Russia held something similar to this as one of their doctrines:

No Christian above disagree with Kierkegaard. Faith without sin is utterly pointless: there is nothing to be redeemed from. And yet Christians want always to make the world 'sinless'! Many want to ban pornography, ban homosexuality (subtly, through banning homosexual marriage), and altogether blot out anything which might lead one to sin or might otherwise contribute to a 'falling away from God'.

My point here is this:

1. It is dishonest - it is a wanting-to-hide-from-oneself, an absolute denial of one's own' 'sinful impulses'; and, also,

2. It is an implicit rejection of faith: it utterly denies that which makes faith possible.

To put it simply, the conservative Christian is not a Christian. He belongs to Christianity - but he is, himself, no Christian.

This is the challenge. Can you not only agree upon the necessity of sin, but will such, as a means to faith? This means not only not refraining from proselytization, but actively repudiating all efforts to subtly (and not-so-subtly) enforce social morality in the personal religious sphere?
He has some interesting insights into spirituality, and I think you are trying to grasp at it fervently. However, I think such pompous modes of speech do little to help explain your point. Rather, I have an extremely hard time finding what you mean here.

Faith, in the spiritual sense, can mean a lot of different things. I think it is totally reasonable to think that spiritual faith, or mysticism, is an ongoing search for the self, which necessarily involves pain, or "sin." I think the concept that this is a solely religious or theological problem is unrealistic, however.