Kurds ready to counter Turkish military

[Guerrilla22]

Kurds mobilise on Turkish border


KDP official says Kurds ready to counter imminent Turkish incursion, Barzani warns of dire consequences.


ZAKHO, Iraq - Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) forces have been mobilised to counter a possible Turkish incursion into northern Iraq, a KDP official said Monday.

"On Saturday and Sunday we gathered all our forces. The fighters who were on leave have returned" to their bases, Ihssan Amedi said.

"We are worried about the situation and we are prepared."

But he said that for the moment extra troops had not been brought into the region or reservists called up.

The KDP, which shares control of northern Iraq with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), fears Turkey will exploit a US-led war on Iraq to move into the region, and have been worried by reports already of Turkish troop, vehicle and equipment movements on the Turkish side.

Turkey already has several thousand troops in northern Iraq and has said it plans to send in more to keep a check on the Kurdish groups.

Ankara is worried that a war may encourage Iraq's Kurds to break away completely and set up an independent state, offering a rallying point for Turkey's own restive Kurdish population just across the border.

However KDP chief Massoud Barzani warned Saturday of "serious consequences" if Turkish troops moved in and said he hoped the Kurds would not be "betrayed" by Washington.

The Iraqi Kurds fear that Washington may be prepared to allow Turkey more leeway in the region in return for using Turkish bases in the long-threatened attack on Baghdad.

[Ander]

This really reminds me of World War I, where Turkey plays the role of the multi-ethnic Austrian empire and the Kurds are one of the many ethnic groups in the Balkans.

Is the US allowing or supporting this?

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:50 pm
This really reminds me of World War I, where Turkey plays the role of the multi-ethnic Austrian empire and the Kurds are one of the many ethnic groups in the Balkans.

Is the US allowing or supporting this?
Well, you could say it was 'provoked' by the US. The US had Turkey in check while they hadn't passed a resolution, but after the resolution went through the house, relations faltered.

[Red October]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 01:50 pm
This really reminds me of World War I, where Turkey plays the role of the multi-ethnic Austrian empire and the Kurds are one of the many ethnic groups in the Balkans.

Is the US allowing or supporting this?
The Bush administration is trying to talk Turkey out of it, but they certainly would not militarily oppose Turkey's incursion.

[Dimentio]

If they do, they will break NATO, and that will be a serious blow.

The price on not doing anything will be hard as well, since it will create a rift in the American-Kurdish front.

[Organic Revolution]

I am highly doubting that Turkey will do anything, the ramifications are to great for them to bear.

[lvleph]

Just seems like bad news. I have a feeling things are just going to keep getting worse. The US is just itching for a reason to start a war with Iran, and you never know what may happen if Turkey does go into Iraq. Maybe, Iran will decide to follow insurgents across the border, and we all know the US will take that to their advantage.

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 07:24 pm
Just seems like bad news. I have a feeling things are just going to keep getting worse. The US is just itching for a reason to start a war with Iran, and you never know what may happen if Turkey does go into Iraq. Maybe, Iran will decide to follow insurgents across the border, and we all know the US will take that to their advantage.
I just wrote a paper on bombing Iran and its implications. Basically I give detailed geographical, cultural and political reasons why it would be World War III if we did.

Why is Turkey doing this? The last thing we need in that region is more instability. Perhaps they hope to influence the civil war somehow?

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 07:24 pm
Just seems like bad news. I have a feeling things are just going to keep getting worse. The US is just itching for a reason to start a war with Iran, and you never know what may happen if Turkey does go into Iraq. Maybe, Iran will decide to follow insurgents across the border, and we all know the US will take that to their advantage.
I've thought about this possibility as well, you know damn well that Washington will use any action taken by Iran against the Kurds in Iran or Iraq as a result of the unrest that will be stirred up by a Turkish invasion as an excuse to attack Iran.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Lenin [email protected] 20, 2007 03:05 am
I just wrote a paper on bombing Iran and its implications. Basically I give detailed geographical, cultural and political reasons why it would be World War III if we did.

Why is Turkey doing this? The last thing we need in that region is more instability. Perhaps they hope to influence the civil war somehow?
If you don't understand why Turkey is doing this I would suggest that there is something lacking in the 'detailed geographical, cultural and political reasons' that you gave.

For anybody with any knowledge of the region, it is very clear why Turkey is doing this.

Also, there won't be a Third World War if the US bombs Iran.

I would rewrite my paper if I were you.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

Can we now officially call Bush "Pandora"?

Luís Henrique

[Noah]

The Kurds will beat the Turks hands down on their own territory, they know every inch of their terrain and are very efficient...Iraq's government may be supporting the anti-PKK bandwagon but Iraq's economy depends on the north and they know that so they won't attack the PKK as the PKK and the north's working class are one - they wouldn't dare.

The Kurdish 'community'/'force' is very strong.

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 19, 2007 01:24 pm
I am highly doubting that Turkey will do anything, the ramifications are to great for them to bear.
Yeah, that is why they are now asking the US to take action against the Kurdish rebels.

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastC...s/idUSL20227949 (http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL20227949)

[Hiero]

Syria supports Turkey incursion. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/20/content_6915388.htm). Does the PKK, and the other Kurdish party give much trouble to Syria? I know there are Kurds in north Syria who are oppressed but i doubt hear too much about them.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 10:40 pm
Iraq's government may be supporting the anti-PKK bandwagon but Iraq's economy depends on the north and they know that so they won't attack the PKK as the PKK and the north's working class are one - they wouldn't dare.


What evidence do you have for this statement? The Iraqi Kurdish parties have already offered to assist the Kurds in fighting the PKK this time, and in the past have actually fought against the PKK in alliance with Turkey.

As for the claim about the PKK and northern Iraq's working class being as one, well it is just absurd.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 02:07 am
Syria supports Turkey incursion. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/20/content_6915388.htm). Does the PKK, and the other Kurdish party give much trouble to Syria? I know there are Kurds in north Syria who are oppressed but i doubt hear too much about them.
There are about 2,000,000 Kurds in Syria, and there are occasional problems in the Kurdish areas. The last time that it flared up was after some trouble at a football match about three years ago.

The PKK wouldn't be 'giving much trouble to Syria' as until 1998, it was effectivly a Syrian puppet.

Devrim

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Basically I give detailed geographical, cultural and political reasons why it would be World War III if we did.

"We" don't bomb.

[Goatse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7055004.stm

And so it begins...

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by BBC News [email protected] 21 October
Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, himself a Kurd, called on the PKK rebels to lay down their arms.
Puppet
Big shock that the puppet to US interests would betray his people again.
:rolleyes:

Time for Bush to bag-and-tag his 'ideas' for Iraq! :lol:

[Devrim]

There are national flags hanging from every building, and nationalists (both left, and right wing types) demonstrating in the streets today in Ankara in support of the war.
Devrim

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 08:07 am
There are national flags hanging from every building, and nationalists (both left, and right wing types) demonstrating in the streets today in Ankara in support of the war.
Devrim
Do you think this will have an impact on the Turkish government's final decision?

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Alcaeos+October 22, 2007 06:36 pm--> (Alcaeos @ October 22, 2007 06:36 pm)
[email protected] 22, 2007 08:07 am
There are national flags hanging from every building, and nationalists (both left, and right wing types) demonstrating in the streets today in Ankara in support of the war.
Devrim
Do you think this will have an impact on the Turkish government's final decision? [/b]
I think that it is important to recognise some of the dynamics that are going on here. First the one between different factions of the Turkish state, basically the army wants to pressurise the government for its own political reasons. Then the Turkish state is also trying to put pressure on both the Americans, and the Iraqis to disarm the PKK. The army is quite capable of mobilising people on the streets against the government. It is difficult to see witch way it will go.

Devrim

[Devrim]

It seems that Talabani will force the PKK into announcing a ceasefire. What Turkey will make of that is unclear.
Devrim

[American_Trotskyist]

I personally I sympathize with the Kurds because of their oppression from Turkey, however, I am not exactly sure what the US will do if the PKK continues it's war with Turkey or how the hell the Turks think they are going to get into the EU after starting yet annother war with the Kurds, last one cost 30,000 lives and waged for years. What country in the EU is going to want to accept Turkey after they wage a war on Kurdish people? I personally think this one of the greatest cluster fucks in history, anyone else think this will kill Turkey's chance to join the EU or cause a total redistribution of the Middle East?

[Devrim]

An interesting article in the western Media today, with the headline 'Diplomacy staves off Turkish incursion' started like this:


Originally posted by The Guardian
The threat of an imminent invasion of northern Iraq by the Turkish army receded yesterday as Ankara's foreign minister vowed to put diplomacy before war, and Iraq's president, Jalal Talabani, predicted that the PKK guerillas holed up in the mountains on the border with Turkey were about to announce a new ceasefire.

and ended like this:


The PKK spokesman told the Guardian that the group expected to make a significant announcement within the next three days, but would not confirm the subject. The spokesman pointed out however that the PKK had announced a series of unilateral ceasefires during the past 10 years, and "they have all been ignored by the Turkish state".

So how on Earth has this 'staved off war'?

Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 09:15 pm
last one cost 30,000 lives and waged for years.
I think that this statement implies that there was some end to that war. There isn't it is continuing. This is part of it. Also the numbers are much higher than 30,000 now.


how the hell the Turks think they are going to get into the EU after starting yet annother war with the Kurds

The stuff about the EU seems to assume that the Turkish ruling class are united, and all want into the EU. This isn't the case. The Government is committed to the strategy of joining the EU. The army is less committed, but more committed to war, and to embarrassing the government.


What country in the EU is going to want to accept Turkey after they wage a war on Kurdish people?

As with my point above, the war has been raging for years. Many EU states were prepared to accept them then. What is the message to be drawn from this; 'kill Kurds in your own back yard, but don't cause an international incident? As I said earlier, there are many among the bourgeoisie who are not that keen on EU membership, or at least think that chances of it are minimal anyway.


anyone else think this will kill Turkey's chance to join the EU or cause a total redistribution of the Middle East?

This isn't going to cause a redistribution of the Middle East. It is something that has happened before without doing it. Why should it cause one now?

Devrim

[ComradeR]

If Turkey does invade northern Iraq this conflict could easily escalate like mad, it has the potential of drawing in regional neighbors and could lead to something similar to the second Congo war (of course it wouldn't be the same as the conditions are different), though this is just a worse case scenario.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 23, 2007 05:36 am--> (devrimankara @ October 23, 2007 05:36 am) An interesting article in the western Media today, with the headline 'Diplomacy staves off Turkish incursion' started like this:


The Guardian
The threat of an imminent invasion of northern Iraq by the Turkish army receded yesterday as Ankara's foreign minister vowed to put diplomacy before war, and Iraq's president, Jalal Talabani, predicted that the PKK guerillas holed up in the mountains on the border with Turkey were about to announce a new ceasefire.

and ended like this:


The PKK spokesman told the Guardian that the group expected to make a significant announcement within the next three days, but would not confirm the subject. The spokesman pointed out however that the PKK had announced a series of unilateral ceasefires during the past 10 years, and "they have all been ignored by the Turkish state".

So how on Earth has this 'staved off war'?

Devrim [/b]
Western media (hell all bourgeois media) is a joke.

[Goatse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7058733.stm


Iraq to ban Kurd rebel operations

They were legal in the first place? :blink:

[Devrim]

I heard a lot of gunshots as I was going to bed last night. I don't think that it was football (Fener didn't win, and it was too late), or a wedding (Too late in both the night, and the year). They didn't have a celebratory rhythm to them either.
No, idea what it was though.
Devrim

[Devrim]

The battle lines become clearer. It seems that Turkey is winnig the US around to support of some action:

Originally posted by The Guardian
Hoshyar Zebari, Iraq's Kurdish foreign minister, said after talks in Baghdad with his Turkish counterpart, Ali Babacan, that Iraq's government and the Kurdistan regional government in the north were committed to reining in the PKK.

"We will actively help Turkey to overcome this menace," Mr Zebari said. He added that Iraq would send a security and political delegation to Turkey for further talks and promised full cooperation "to solve the border problems and the terrorism that Turkey is facing ...".

Article continues
But he fell short of committing Iraqi troops, or the peshmerga fighters of the Kurdistan regional government, to oust the PKK fighters as Turkey has been demanding.

Massoud Barzani, president of the Kurdish region, has said his forces would stay out of any fighting between the Turks and the PKK. Iraq has said its army is too busy fighting elsewhere in the country. Any military offensive by Iraq would need US troops, who have been reluctant to attack the PKK.

But they are now reported to be considering an attack in coordination with the Turkish military.

"If there is an attack, it will be a joint Turkish-US affair, with rockets or from the air, and the Iraqis won't be consulted," said a senior political source in Baghdad last night.

Devrim

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 04:33 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7058733.stm


Iraq to ban Kurd rebel operations

They were legal in the first place? :blink:
It's a political game, they're just spouting rhetoric to make it look like they are actually doing something.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 24, 2007 06:45 am--> (devrimankara @ October 24, 2007 06:45 am)The battle lines become clearer. It seems that Turkey is winnig the US around to support of some action:

The Guardian
Hoshyar Zebari, Iraq's Kurdish foreign minister, said after talks in Baghdad with his Turkish counterpart, Ali Babacan, that Iraq's government and the Kurdistan regional government in the north were committed to reining in the PKK.

"We will actively help Turkey to overcome this menace," Mr Zebari said. He added that Iraq would send a security and political delegation to Turkey for further talks and promised full cooperation "to solve the border problems and the terrorism that Turkey is facing ...".

Article continues
But he fell short of committing Iraqi troops, or the peshmerga fighters of the Kurdistan regional government, to oust the PKK fighters as Turkey has been demanding.

Massoud Barzani, president of the Kurdish region, has said his forces would stay out of any fighting between the Turks and the PKK. Iraq has said its army is too busy fighting elsewhere in the country. Any military offensive by Iraq would need US troops, who have been reluctant to attack the PKK.

But they are now reported to be considering an attack in coordination with the Turkish military.

"If there is an attack, it will be a joint Turkish-US affair, with rockets or from the air, and the Iraqis won't be consulted," said a senior political source in Baghdad last night.

Devrim[/b]
Of course the US will support the attack if it happens, it potentially has much to gain from such a conflict. If the situation escalates it could draw Iran in someway or another, such as stirring up the Kurds in Iran to provoke a response from Tehran, or the US could use the conflict to accuse Iran of supporting the PKK, regardless it could give Washington an excuse to attack Iran.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by ComradeR+October 24, 2007 07:15 am--> (ComradeR @ October 24, 2007 07:15 am)
[email protected] 23, 2007 04:33 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7058733.stm


Iraq to ban Kurd rebel operations

They were legal in the first place? :blink:
It's a political game, they're just spouting rhetoric to make it look like they are actually doing something. [/b]
To a certain extent this is true, but one must remember that this is a political game that has been continuing for a long time. I think that Turkey wants more than rhetoric this time.

Devrim

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 24, 2007 07:41 am--> (devrimankara @ October 24, 2007 07:41 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 07:15 am

[email protected] 23, 2007 04:33 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7058733.stm


Iraq to ban Kurd rebel operations

They were legal in the first place? :blink:
It's a political game, they're just spouting rhetoric to make it look like they are actually doing something.
To a certain extent this is true, but one must remember that this is a political game that has been continuing for a long time. I think that Turkey wants more than rhetoric this time.

Devrim[/b]
Indeed, it will be interesting to see how far this actually goes.

I heard a lot of gunshots as I was going to bed last night. I don't think that it was football (Fener didn't win, and it was too late), or a wedding (Too late in both the night, and the year). They didn't have a celebratory rhythm to them either.
No, idea what it was though.
Devrim
Do you live near the border?

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 11:02 am
Do you live near the border?
No, I live in Ankara the capital. It is a long, long way from the border.
Devrim

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 07:22 pm
If they do, they will break NATO, and that will be a serious blow.

The price on not doing anything will be hard as well, since it will create a rift in the American-Kurdish front.
Unfortunately, NATO will survive. It has survived Turkey and Greece going at each other, so it will survive this, although it could greatly complicate logistics for the US mil;itary in Iraq.

[Devrim]

A few notes from the home front:

Yesterday only two nationalist demonstrations came past my house. I suppose that is an improvement...There was an attack on a Kurdish area of Ankara by fascists on Monday. I haven't seen anything about this in the media. I heard it from somebody who lives there. God knows what is happening in İstanbul... Nationalists demonstrated at ODTÜ, the so-called 'castle of communism' on Tuesday. It is the first time their has ever been a nationalist demonstration there. Our organisation has a couple of members there, and they produced a leaflet, which went down very well...The left seems in disarray... the TKP are going on about not letting the imperialists divide our country, a little short of coming all out in favour of the war, but only just...I was accosted on the way to work by a flag seller. He asked me if I had a flag, and when I replied that I didn't, he demanded to know why not. I told he what to do with his flag...then I realised that it was probably a very dangerous thing to have done...He was one of seven flag sellers I saw while walking to work this morning. 26,000 workers still on strike at Türk Telekom...Novamed also still on strike too...on a personal note yesterday after an argument with a particularly nationalistic shop keeper, I decided that I wasn't going to shop in places flying the national flag any more. Unfortunatly the only shop I have seen since without a national flag was one selling artificial limbs. The need for bread overtook a stupid abstract idea comming from annoyance...

Devrim

[Devrim]

Last night the Army General Command thanked the public for demonstrating against terrorism…The news is full of these sort of demonstrations. Every city, or small town has them…It is difficult to say how much the army have been directly involved in organising them…Some comrades tell me about discussions with workers on a Telekom picket line. The workers there were condemning the acts of sabotage, which have taken place, and saying that they were patriots, and wouldn’t do anything against the country…Everybody is caught up within it…Leftists still very confused. I speak to the comrades from ODTÜ again. The leftists there are deciding whether to attack the fascists. They have been talking about this for four days now. I am slightly shocked when I learn that there are only actually six fascists there…Anarchists are arguing that we should burn Turkish flags. Are they crazy? The result would be pogrom. There was a flag burning incident a couple of years ago, and the whole country was whipped into hysteria. I can’t imagine what it would cause in Today’s atmosphere…I speak to a girl at work, her voice drops to a whisper when she mentions to me that she is Kurdish. Twenty percent of the country are Kurds, and how many are even afraid to whisper it now…“The US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice is to visit Turkey early next month to try to reduce tensions between Ankara and Iraq.” There is a war going on today, and she is coming early next month. Whatever they are saying, is this a signal from the States giving a green light to the generals?…The Chief of the General Staff, General Yaşar Büyükanıt, calls for demonstrators to ‘be restrained’. He says it is the PKK who want to spark ethnic conflict. This makes me feel much more relaxed about the nationalist mobs roaming the streets. It is the PKK who want to spark ethnic conflict not them…I count the number of Flags flying from my apartment block. There are only seven. Why on Earth am I thinking ‘only‘.

Devrim

[ComradeR]

I hear the Iraqi delegation has arrived in Ankara, and that the Turkish leaders have said unless their demands are met (something that is unlikely as Iraq isn't even capable of meeting the demands, and the US doesn't seem likely to take any action) the invasion will go ahead. It looks like it may be unavoidable at this point, as the Turkish state seems determined to get their war.

[ComradeR]

As expected Turkey has rejected Iraq's offer stating that it does not go far enough and will take too long to work. From what I have heard they are now debating whether to launch a military incursion or impose economic measures (sanctions) against northern Iraq, which is heavily dependent on Turkey for food and electricity.

[Devrim]

High court lifts government ban on ‘negative’ media…There is general bourgeoisie media approval of the fact that we don’t have censorship in Turkey…What this means is that you censor yourself. After all if you write anything at all against the national interest you can be tried under the all covering Article 301, insulting ‘Turkishness’...Or end up dead like Hrant Dink, Ahmet Taner Kışlalı, Uğur Mumcu, Ümit Kaftancioğlu, Abdi Ipekçı…I decide not to go to the football tomorrow. At Sivaspor on Monday there were 15,000 people, all with Turkish flags. The Chief of Staff praised them. I think it will be the same everywhere this weekend.. Generally, I don’t stand for the national anthem. I can’t imagine what not doing that would cause tomorrow…Rice warns Turkey against interfering in Iraq…I had an hour discussion with a group of railway workers about the war while I was at work today. Most of them are arguing the standard nationalist line. Some of the things that are said are frightening: “We will clean the Kurds”. One of them argues things that are close to us. It makes me feel a bit more optimistic…I mention it to a comrade later, and it turns out that the rail worker is an anarchist, and the comrade knows him. That is how small the group of people arguing against the war is…Yaşar Büyükanıt Says that a cross boarder operation is not imminent. It sounds like it will start after the 5th of November meeting.

Devrim

[Labor Shall Rule]

In all curiosity Devrim, why have the leftists restrained from taking the fight to the fascists? It seems, by your posts, that their influence is clearly spreading from storefront to storefront. It is terrifying that there was an attack on a Kurdish neighborhood. What is the state of the anti-fascist movement there in the first place?

[Devrim]

Kayseri 300,000, Sivas 30,000, Fethiye 30,000, Antalya 10,000, Çorlu 40,000, Amasya 30,000, Nigde 10,000, Çorum 10,000, Gönen 10,000, Golbasi, 10,000, Şirnak 5,000, Samsun, 1000, Kahramanmaraş, 1,000... Today is Sunday, and I am sitting at home reading the newspaper. These of the numbers of people attending pro-war demonstrations in different cities in Turkey yesterday… Tomorrow is Republic Day, a national holiday, it will be worse. The shop at the bottom of my apartment block has a new flag. It has a large picture of Mustafa Kemal, and the words ‘How happy, I am to be a Turk’ written on it…It reminds me that I am not an ethnic Turk, and that my wife is half Kurdish…

Devrim

[ComradeR]

It seems like the war is inevitable, it hinges now on whether or not Ankara can get the go ahead from Washington, something that looks very likely.
Devrim be careful comrade, from the sound of things it is becoming more and more potentially very dangerous for a leftist, especially one who isn't an ethnic Turk with a wife thats half Kurdish.

[guerilla E]

Devrim; Istanbul is not much better. We've been holding meetings at the culture houses, with people from the DTP, MKM and other groups - everyone is worried.

There has been attacks on students in universities, attacks in Istiklal st. against known anti-nationalists, DTP have experienced constant harrasment and security or 'nobetciler' at culture houses have been increased. There is definetly tension, but it has kind of died down a bit due to the media lull as there haven't been more dead soldiers.

MHP had another car rally in Taksim square last night with over 20 cars and doing the wolf symbol (bozkurt).

It is worth mentioning that the MKM (Mesopotanian Culture Center) Concert, with Kurdish music and theatre, was raided due to slogans and flags.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Labor Shall [email protected] 27, 2007 02:37 pm
In all curiosity Devrim, why have the leftists restrained from taking the fight to the fascists? It seems, by your posts, that their influence is clearly spreading from storefront to storefront. It is terrifying that there was an attack on a Kurdish neighborhood. What is the state of the anti-fascist movement there in the first place?
I don't know the details of what happened in that particular place. I will speak to the comrades from there, and try to find out.

I think that your post raises some important points though, the main one being about anti-fascism. It seems to me that in certain circles of the left there is an obsession with anti-fascism. Really though, what is the point of leftist students beating up the only seven fascists at the most left wing university in Turkey when hundreds of thousands of workers are being mobilised by the trade unions in support of the war? The only result that I can see it having is that a few students feel brave, and good about themselves whilst the pogroms start. I can imagine how an event like that would come across in the national media "Traitors beat patriots". The next day there would be nationalist mobs attacking Kurds, and 'traitors' all over Turkey.

Why didn't they attack the fascists? I can only speculate. Maybe they were personally afraid. These are frightening times. Maybe they just weren't crazy.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

Evidently the Turkish nationalist right has already won the political struggle about going to war against Kurdistan...

And obviously there is not much that can be done at this moment. The left seems to be in the defencive for quite a time from now on.

Of course, if the Americans take a stand of not allowing the Turkish State its military adventure, this will result in humiliation, and possibly turn the tide. Also if the Turkish State invades Iraq and the results aren't as nifty as they would like them to be, opposition to war will start to rise, as Turkish boys start to come back home in coffins.

Good luck to our Turkish comrades, I hope they can manage to survive and keep organised at these dire times.

Luís Henrique

[Devrim]

Originally posted by guerilla [email protected] 28, 2007 11:17 am
Devrim; Istanbul is not much better.
Actually, I would imagine that İstanbul is probably much worse.


We've been holding meetings at the culture houses, with people from the DTP

For us the DTP is also a nationalist anti-working class party.

Devrim

[guerilla E]

Istanbul has become rather quiet, but with rallies still taking place. I think everyone is just waiting on the results of diplomatic envoys and such.

It doesn't matter to me what DTP is, I'm not DTP, but they've been a target for a while from MHP thugs and other fascist movements, but communication and unity is needed; I'm not a fan of the DTP either, however some of their policies are good, such as their party members in the east visiting the families of both fallen soldiers and guerillas, also their involvement in MKM and other culture houses is an improvement over the other parties which literally ignore the presence of left-wing youths.

One of the other reasons the left is failing is because it has no leadership, a banner per say, that represents the left wing. Most 'left wing' parties or political groups joined the nationalist bandwagon already. Isci Party (a fucking joke, a sick joke, meaning 'Workers Party') has got pro-nationalist banners outside all of its offices. Autonome movements are springing up in universities but they're all silent, uni's are very dangerous atm because of nationalist rallies.

I've yet to hear what the TKP has got going on, but I know many groups are mobilizing for the November protest in Ankara against the Turkish invasion of Iraq, but theres been some well founded safety concerns over it too (I'm trying to judge if its a good idea to attend or not...)
If they raid a simple concert with army tanks outside, don't want to imagine the worst case for the protest...

[Wanted Man]

Today in Utrecht, Turkish nationalists were demonstrating against the PKK. They said to the media that "Kurds are our brothers" and that they were just protesting the "terrorist PKK", but I also saw wolf's head gestures.

[Leo]

I've yet to hear what the TKP has got going on

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.sol.org.tr/resimler/22-10-2007_ff0602c2df18f8036289a8fddc033b74.jpg

Translation: TKP says "we won't let USA divide our country!"

Link: http://www.sol.org.tr/index.php?yazino=15372

[Wanted Man]

Picture of Utrecht demo:

http://www.nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/images/demonstratieturken.jpg

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 28, 2007 08:41 pm

I've yet to hear what the TKP has got going on

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.sol.org.tr/resimler/22-10-2007_ff0602c2df18f8036289a8fddc033b74.jpg

Translation: TKP says "we won't let USA divide our country!"

Link: http://www.sol.org.tr/index.php?yazino=15372
That's fuckin rich coming from TKP; they always backed up the Kurds at Nevruz (Kurdish Spring Celebrations) against police or MHP presence. That picture is worth a thousand swear words against those psuedo leftists.

Those wolf symbols do wonders for pissing me off - they represent the pinnacle of American-Turkish imperialism and nationalism; the left over shit from Operation GLADIO, bozkurts, fascists... etc etc no need to rant it.

All I know atm, on terms with the shit going on in Istanbul, is that tomorrow with the Republic Day celebrations theres going to be bountiful, spine chilling, nationalist sentiment.

My sentiments for the occasion will be that they can all republick my balls.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by guerilla [email protected] 28, 2007 10:57 pm
Those wolf symbols do wonders for pissing me off - they represent the pinnacle of American-Turkish imperialism and nationalism; the left over shit from Operation GLADIO, bozkurts, fascists... etc etc no need to rant it.
Yeah, it sucks ass. Grey Wolves exist in the Netherlands and other western European countries to counter the influence of leftist exiles from Turkey. They are up to their necks in the criminal business, too. I hated just having to walk past them as the Dutch police stood by and watched them make fascist symbols.

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by Dick Dastardly+October 28, 2007 10:02 pm--> (Dick Dastardly @ October 28, 2007 10:02 pm)
guerilla [email protected] 28, 2007 10:57 pm
Those wolf symbols do wonders for pissing me off - they represent the pinnacle of American-Turkish imperialism and nationalism; the left over shit from Operation GLADIO, bozkurts, fascists... etc etc no need to rant it.
Yeah, it sucks ass. Grey Wolves exist in the Netherlands and other western European countries to counter the influence of leftist exiles from Turkey. They are up to their necks in the criminal business, too. I hated just having to walk past them as the Dutch police stood by and watched them make fascist symbols. [/b]
They a bunch of ass bandits, worse than nazis, 'cuz these dogs actually run big heroin rings and people smuggling. Its a type of fascist mafia with a political idealogy.

Dastard man too bad you got the spill over from our fascist pigs running around in your backyard. Throw a brick at em if you can, cuz over here, being a Zaza-Kurd, I'd get lynched on the street.... make prime time news worldwide.

[Wanted Man]

No kidding. By the way, yesterday the police did do something. They confiscated a banner that was flown behind an airplane earlier. They didn't actually know what it meant, but feared that it could be considered "insulting or discriminating". Do you know what it means? Here's a pic:

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/grijzewolf.jpg

Edit: oh, nevermind, I read over the source material a bit more closely, and it's explained right there. Looks like the cops' intuition helped them for once. :lol:

[Leo]

It means something like "martyrs don't die".

[Wanted Man]

Thanks.

Here's some more info about the GW in the Netherlands:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~afa/alert/engels/greyw.html

The government clearly believes that it pays to look the other way when it comes to these people.

And again:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~afa/alert/engels/sl6_2005.html

[CAPITALIST SLAVE]

Dispite any wider ramifications from any Turkish incursion and dispite the U.S.'s 'overt' stance on the situation, a new 'front' in the north of Iraq will suit them enormously. Iraq is not improving for the average Iraqi and what better excuse for the US administation than to blame the situation in the country on someone else. I bet Bush and his pals can't believe their luck! They could then continue with the 'project' they started when they instigated 9/11.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

whatever happens, the PKK have my support

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 01:28 am
whatever happens, the PKK have my support
For us they are anti-working class gangsters, but then again so are the Maoists.

The term 'whatever happens...' is one that you should be careful of though. What happens if Turkey gets deeper into conflict with the US over this issue. What happens if Turkey finds itself dragged into a war with America. I accept that this scenario is highly unlikely, but it is, not altogether impossible. The most popular Turkish cinema film ever is about Turkey confronting the US in Northern Iraq. Last year there was a series of best-selling novels fantasising about against war against America. So the conflict hots up, and Turkey ends up fighting the US in Northern Iraq. In that case the PKK would be fighting on the US's side (and after reading some of the sycophantic stuff about America that the PKK has put out recently I wouldn't be surprised).

Where would your 'whatever happens...' leave you then, supporting the allies of the Amerikkka?

Already certain Turkish 'left' parties have taken the side of the Turkish state in this war in the name of anti-imperialism. Others of course are supporting anti-working class Kurdish nationalism. As the situation develops we are sure that this process we continue, and spread to 'left' parties abroad. The only thing we don't know is which way they will jump.

Devrim

[ComradeR]

The more I look at the situation the more it looks like the aim of this incursion by Turkey is more then to just neutralize the PKK, they seem to to be planning to deal a critical blow to Iraqi Kurdish independence by striking at Kurdistan, for example the kind of forces they are massing are very unsuited for warfare in the mountains which is where the PKK operate, of course this is just speculation.
The only certain thing is that whatever the outcome or reasons of an incursion by Turkey into northern Iraq it will be the working class on both sides who will be the ones to suffer. I really fear for any comrades in Turkey as well, it's in situations like these that the bourgeoisie may crack down hard on them.

whatever happens, the PKK have my support
Be wary of a nationalist group like this comrade, the tactics they are using completely alienate the working class and drive them into the arms of the bourgeois nationalists, and as devrim pointed out they may very well side with the imperialists. We just have to wait and see where this all leads.

[guerilla E]

Comrades be forwarned that the PKK and the freedom fighters of Kurdistan are different groups.

In the 80's during the height of Revolutionary Youth and Revolutionary Left movements in Turkey, the PKK was offered many 'partnership' deals to unite forces, which they declined due to purely nationalist reasons.

The PKK is also suspected of having links to both Turkish and American intelligence agencies (but anyone who tries to prove this gets a bomb in their car).

I am personaly against the Turkish imperialist actions because the reasons for going into Iraq are different from the causes of such a move; the government had already amassed over 150 000 troops at the border, with a peak of 300 000 at one stage. The agenda for the invasion of Iraq is not new, it has been going on for the last year, with the deaths of soldiers being used as an excuse to invade. The given reasons do not even warrant the response shown from the country itself and I fear that further advancement of this crisis will lead Turkey to degenerate back into the 1970-80's where the country was fascist true to the exact term.

The PKK is not a class based organization, it has no interests in socialist idealogy, and only promoted these ideals during the Cold War, as it is widely accepted now that they have left the leftist idealogy behind for more nationalist sentiment.

Kurdistan itself, whilst I am careful not to support it without reservation, is different from the PKK envisioned Kurdistan. The Peshmerge and the PKK are different things, with different connections, and neither are very 'pure' in terms of support.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 06:27 am
The term 'whatever happens...' is one that you should be careful of though. What happens if Turkey gets deeper into conflict with the US over this issue. What happens if Turkey finds itself dragged into a war with America.
This would be a Malvinas-like scenario, and it would quite probably lead to the downfall of the Turkish regime. I suppose that they know this, and would try to avoid the scenario as much as possible. But who knows, everybody makes mistakes. And the religious, or nationalist, far right might even push for it, in hope of gaining control of Turkey, even at the price of reducing it.

Luís Henrique

[ComradeR]

It appears that the US is giving the go ahead to Turkey. It's providing Turkey with intelligence on PKK positions, as they put it "key for any sort of military response". Also Turkey seems to be beginning to bring sanctions against Kurdistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7071569.stm

[Comrade-Z]

At this critical juncture, where are the anti-war Turkish citizens such as this?

Refuse, Resist, Say no (Anarchy Rap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i25Ktbphfg4

(By the way, if any of the Turkish speakers could give a rough translation of this song, I'm dying to know what they are talking about more specifically).

Without having very much knowledge at all of the situation over there at all, this is my first impression of a strategy that I would consider:

Appeal to discontented Kurds with the prospect of real equality under workers' control of society, and thereby attempt to undercut the support of the PKK as well. At the same time, appeal to Turkish people with:
1. The message that a larger war cannot possibly work, and can only bring Turkey the same problems that the U.S. is now having in Iraq.
2. A larger war will only inflame Kurdish feelings of nationalism and will make Turkish people less secure, not more secure.
3. That real security, both in a "military" sense and in a physical/financial/material/sustenance sense, can only come from taking control of society consciously and directly along with all other willing participants, regardless of nationality.

Such that the messages to both groups converge on the prospect of real security and equality made possible by a society of conscious and direct workers' control and democratic collaboration.

[ComradeR]

At this critical juncture, where are the anti-war Turkish citizens such as this?
From what I've heard of the situation right-wing nationalism and and the pro-war movement is so strong and wide spread that it is very dangerous to publicly protest against the war.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 07:21 am

At this critical juncture, where are the anti-war Turkish citizens such as this?
From what I've heard of the situation right-wing nationalism and and the pro-war movement is so strong and wide spread that it is very dangerous to publicly protest against the war.
There is supposed to be a protest in Ankara tomorrow. We will see.
Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 01, 2007 09:44 pm
At this critical juncture, where are the anti-war Turkish citizens such as this?

Refuse, Resist, Say no (Anarchy Rap)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i25Ktbphfg4


In Germany, like him I think.

Devrim

[guerilla E]

Yeah the protest tomorrow will be quite interesting, Devrim if you go though take care of yourself. There is no plans for demonstrations like that in Istabul, and Cevik has being bringing out the green tanks more and more often (we live near their barracks in Uskudar and all their green tanks are gone too).

The protest tomorrow will be something we all should keep an eye on; might be passive or active (but hey its Turkey).

[Devrim]

Nothing really seemed to happen this week…the war went on. Turkish helicopters bombarded the PKK positions in the Kandil mountains…people died…there was more sabre rattling…Massoud Barzani warned the PKK…Rice arrived here yesterday, with the one hand promising to find an effective strategy…and the other warning the Turkish State; “We have certainly been concerned that anything that would destabilise the north of Iraq is not going to be in Turkey's interests, it is not going to be in our interests and it is not going to be in the Iraqis' interests”…One has to ask whose interests it is in really…Nationalist youths demonstrated against her in Ankara…There were a few small nationalist demonstrations across the country…200,000 in Samsun for example…I spent some time at Telekom on the picket lines this week…The strike is solid, 99% in Ankara, 98% nationally…Morale seems to be good…I got an e-mail from friends in Berlin… “we are very concerned about the situation in Turkey. But also in Germany we are faced with a new wave of nationalism in the Turkish/Kurdish community. Last Sunday there was a violent confrontation between Kurds and Turkish Nationalists in Berlin. The situation was very explosive and dangerous. Especially in my district the Bozkurtlar are very active now.”…Tomorrow there is an anti-war demonstration in Ankara…I have no idea what will happen…

Devrim

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by CAPITALIST [email protected] 29, 2007 06:07 am
Dispite any wider ramifications from any Turkish incursion and dispite the U.S.'s 'overt' stance on the situation, a new 'front' in the north of Iraq will suit them enormously. Iraq is not improving for the average Iraqi and what better excuse for the US administation than to blame the situation in the country on someone else. I bet Bush and his pals can't believe their luck! They could then continue with the 'project' they started when they instigated 9/11.
Not to mention that all of the ordnance, soldiers, and supplies travel through Turkish airspace. That's why the US needed support from Turkey to invade Iraq in the first place.

I'm actually shocked that this hadn't happened earlier.

There's also been a corresponding shift in the US corporate media towards the PKK. Newsrags like Newsweek, USA Today, and the Journal-Sentinel are labeling the PKK as 'terrorists', when even a year ago they were 'freedom fighters'. I remember when America first invaded Iraq we 'had' to do so to 'save' the Kurds. Since you all are more educated on that war than most I don't have to go over the 101 reasons that rationale was bollocks.

Solidarity to the PKK!
Fuck the US troops
Fuck the Turkish troops
Fuck the Iraqi/American collaborationist troops

[Devrim]

The demonstration was much bigger than we expected, but still tiny compared to nationalist ones. I will write more later.
Devrim

[guerilla E]

Awaiting the updates regarding this eagerly.

No solidarity for the PKK as an organization and a psuedo-leftist militant group. Sympathy for their fighters, but also sympathy for the conscripts sent to fight experienced and ultimately battle-hardened guerillas.

[Devrim]

Today was the demonstration…It was bigger than we expected…KESK, and Eğitim-Sen really mobilised their members. I think that there were about 25,000. It is hard to say though...For those who don’t know what a Turkish demonstration is like, it is a lot louder, and more colourful than those in the West…Political groups come in their matching hats, or bibs, and in military formation…There is lots of organised shouting…People stop at seemingly random moments to form a circle, and dance the Halay…Some things of course are the same the world over. There are always some anarchists with funny hair…I didn’t see any Kurdish flags. I only saw one group of Apocular…Lots of the slogans were about US imperialism, and getting it out of the Middle East. I thought we were protesting against Turkey…Only one group of students seem to shout slogans against the nation…All in all a good day. It was good to not feel so isolated… It is nothing though compared to the size of the nationalist demonstrations. This was a national mobilisation. There were people there from all over the country. The nationalists brought out 10,000 in Golbaşi, a small town near Ankara…I didn’t know that 10,000 people even lived in Golbaşi…In other news some group in Izmir is distributing a petition calling for the State to sterilise Kurds…Two armed nationalists in Osmaniye set up a road block early in the week, and threatened to shoot anyone who didn’t shout “Damn the PKK”…Most people didn’t need the encouragement. When they were taken away by the police, crowds were cheering them…Everyday the 5th and war edges a little closer.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Barish+November 03, 2007 01:36 pm--> (Barish @ November 03, 2007 01:36 pm)
[email protected] 03, 2007 01:32 pm
The demonstration was much bigger than we expected, but still tiny compared to nationalist ones.
No need to worry, nationalist demonstrations had no real political basis. [/b]
I was speaking to a woman at the march. Somebody else was saying this. She said that they said this just before Kahramanmaraş.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Barish+November 03, 2007 01:30 pm--> (Barish @ November 03, 2007 01:30 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 02, 2007 03:56 pm
Solidarity to the PKK!
Fuck the Turkish troops
I beg your pardon? Turkish army mostly consists of conscripts and the ones who serve their mandatory military service in eastern provinces are coming from the poorest families.

Solidarity to Turkish & Kurdish people

Fuck nationalist wankers like PKK, Grey Wolves etc. [/b]
It is interesting that none of the people posting on this thread from Turkey, Turks, or Kurds, have raised this slogan. It seems to be something that is coming from leftists in the West. Comrades in Turkey seem to recognise what a thouroughly anti-working class organisation they are.

İsçilerin Vantanı Yoktur

Devrim

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by devrimankara+November 03, 2007 04:00 pm--> (devrimankara @ November 03, 2007 04:00 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 01:30 pm

COMRADE [email protected] 02, 2007 03:56 pm
Solidarity to the PKK!
Fuck the Turkish troops
I beg your pardon? Turkish army mostly consists of conscripts and the ones who serve their mandatory military service in eastern provinces are coming from the poorest families.

Solidarity to Turkish & Kurdish people

Fuck nationalist wankers like PKK, Grey Wolves etc.
It is interesting that none of the people posting on this thread from Turkey, Turks, or Kurds, have raised this slogan. It seems to be something that is coming from leftists in the West. Comrades in Turkey seem to recognise what a thouroughly anti-working class organisation they are.

İsçilerin Vantanı Yoktur

Devrim [/b]
I have little information on the nature of the PKK, I was mainly voicing my concern for the Kurdish people.

Do you know where I can get more info on the PKK?

[Devrim]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+November 03, 2007 09:05 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ November 03, 2007 09:05 pm) Do you know where I can get more info on the PKK?

[/b]
From a speach given by one of our members in Europe:
http://eks.internationalist-forum.org/en/node/43
Internationalist Communist Left
...The problem is that in the Middle East today siding with the oppressed is merely to take one side in the ethnic/sectarian conflicts that are leading the entire region deeper, and deeper into chaos, and civil war. As an example of this we will start by looking at the Kurds in Turkey. It is very clear that Kurds in Turkey have been subjected to terrible oppression at the hands of the State. I remember talking to a comrade from Halabja in Iraq. She had been bombed with chemical weapons, seen half of her family die, been temporarily blinded, and lived in a tent in a refuge camp in Iran for two years. When I asked her why she had refused our invitation to come to Turkey, she replied that they really treat Kurds badly there. In the war, which has been raging in the South East since 1984, over 36,000 have been killed, 3,000 Kurdish villages have been destroyed, and nearly 400,000 people have been displaced. On the cultural side use of the Kurdish language was illegal and punishable by a prison sentence even in the privacy of your own home, and there are many people especially among the old who can only speak Kurdish. These sort of things lead people to take the side of the Kurdish nationalists, in Turkey represented by the PKK, the Kurdish Workers Party, nowadays known as Kongra-Gel. Despite these people having a ‘socialist ideology’, they are a actually a deeply anti-working class organisation. I think that this is best exemplified by its campaign of killing school teachers, mostly young girls from a working class, or peasant background who have been sent to the South-East to work there by the state, because they are spreading ‘Turkish culture’, i.e. teaching the Turkish language. On the other side of the boarder, the PUK shot down 17 striking workers only last July. The problem is not ‘only’ one of shooting workers though. The problem is that these groups are leading the workers into ethnic war. The Kurdish militants who are dying in the mountains are mostly poor peasants, and workers. The Turkish conscript soldiers who are dying alongside them are mostly from exactly the same background. I can remember when I was living in Istanbul in the 90’s, and my next door neighbour lost two sons in the same week, one of them fighting in the Turkish army, and one of them fighting in the PKK. The real question is what do workers have to gain from the continuation of this war. Turkey is an extremely nationalist country. The walls of public buildings are covered with political slogans as they were here in Stalinist times, things like ‘How happy I am to be a Turk’, and ‘One Turk is worth the world’. Yet recently, there has been the beginnings of a class reaction against the war. Leaders of the mainstream political parties have been heckled by people at public meetings asking why it is the children of the workers who are dying in the South-East, and not the children of the rich. Yes, the ideology of nationalism is not being explicitly challenged here, but in recognising that the working class, and the bourgeoisie have different interests, people are beginning to take the first step towards challenging the hold that nationalism has over the working class. When workers begin to realise that they have common interests as workers, and not as members of some ‘national/religious/ethnic’ group, it is the beginning, however small, of breaking the hold of nationalism...

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 30, 2007 06:27 am--> (devrimankara @ October 30, 2007 06:27 am)
[email protected] 30, 2007 01:28 am
whatever happens, the PKK have my support
For us they are anti-working class gangsters, but then again so are the Maoists.

The term 'whatever happens...' is one that you should be careful of though. What happens if Turkey gets deeper into conflict with the US over this issue. What happens if Turkey finds itself dragged into a war with America. I accept that this scenario is highly unlikely, but it is, not altogether impossible. The most popular Turkish cinema film ever is about Turkey confronting the US in Northern Iraq. Last year there was a series of best-selling novels fantasising about against war against America. So the conflict hots up, and Turkey ends up fighting the US in Northern Iraq. In that case the PKK would be fighting on the US's side (and after reading some of the sycophantic stuff about America that the PKK has put out recently I wouldn't be surprised).

Where would your 'whatever happens...' leave you then, supporting the allies of the Amerikkka?

Already certain Turkish 'left' parties have taken the side of the Turkish state in this war in the name of anti-imperialism. Others of course are supporting anti-working class Kurdish nationalism. As the situation develops we are sure that this process we continue, and spread to 'left' parties abroad. The only thing we don't know is which way they will jump.

Devrim [/b]
yeah lol because you deem them anti-working class, a marxist group fighting for the national liberation of a historically oppressed people (in 3 nations), is anti-working class. Or maybe you're Turkish Nationalism is just acting up???

You forget one thing, the PKK is considered a terrorist organization by both countries. PKK fights both imperialisms.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

and stop posting anti-communist propaganda without sources. The PKK are deemed terrorists because they are fighting Turkish military occupiers.

[Xiao Banfa]

Up the PKK and all other groups engaged in armed struggle against colonial oppression and national chauvinism!

Fuck reactionary-as-fuck turkish nationalism and all pseudo-lefts who are down with it.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Devrim
The term 'whatever happens...' is one that you should be careful of though. What happens if Turkey gets deeper into conflict with the US over this issue. What happens if Turkey finds itself dragged into a war with America. I accept that this scenario is highly unlikely, but it is, not altogether impossible. The most popular Turkish cinema film ever is about Turkey confronting the US in Northern Iraq. Last year there was a series of best-selling novels fantasising about against war against America. So the conflict hots up, and Turkey ends up fighting the US in Northern Iraq. In that case the PKK would be fighting on the US's side (and after reading some of the sycophantic stuff about America that the PKK has put out recently I wouldn't be surprised).

Where would your 'whatever happens...' leave you then, supporting the allies of the Amerikkka?

Why not try to answer the question, Left Henry?


yeah lol because you deem them anti-working class, a marxist group fighting for the national liberation of a historically oppressed people (in 3 nations), is anti-working class.

The PKK has not claimed to be a Marxist group for many years, not that it would make any difference to their anti working class nature if it did.


Or maybe you're Turkish Nationalism is just acting up???

Of course, if you had read through the thread you might have realised that I am not an ethnic Turk, and my wife is a Kurd. you might also have an idea about our position on Turkish nationalism. It is clear for all to see. Also others who have criticised the PKK on this thread are Kurds.

Is this a problem for you? The fact that Kurdish socialists don't support these anti-working class nationalist gangs?


and stop posting anti-communist propaganda without sources. The PKK are deemed terrorists because they are fighting Turkish military occupiers.

Which facts do you want sources for? I would suggest that you ask, and I will provide some for you as you don't seem to know what you are talking about. You have barely made any comments on this thread, and what you have has been full of factual errors, For example, the PKK no longer claims to be Marxist, and Kurds are native to five countries, not three.


a marxist group fighting for the national liberation of a historically oppressed people (in 3 nations), is anti-working class.

This is the core of the problem. I would say that fighting for the nation is anti-working class. I am not sure what other posters from Turkey think, but for us, the PKK is not the vicious anti-working class gang that it is because of 'tactical mistakes', or 'bad leadership'. It's very role is anti-working class.

Devrim

[Devrim]

The Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, is in Washington meeting with Bush at the moment...The eight Turkish soldiers captured by the PKK have been released...A PKK ceasefire has been declared... There seems to be an attempt to make some sort of deal... There is a lot of war talk on T.V. ...

Devrim

[ComradeR]

I've heard something about a possible joint Turkey-US operation in northern Iraq, has anyone else heard anything on this?

[Guerrilla22]

Apparently the PKK has just released some Turkish soldiers, no doubt the US is trying to mediate the situation.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 09:51 pm
Apparently the PKK has just released some Turkish soldiers, no doubt the US is trying to mediate the situation.
I don't understand the way you use the term mediate. The release was maediated bt the DTP, a pro-Kurdish party.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Yesterday was the 10th November, and the 68th anniversary of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk’s death. The whole country officially stops for one minute at the moment that he died, 9.05 a.m. …Ten years ago I would say 100% of people stopped, and stood to attention, in the intervening years it has been decreasing …Last year I was sitting in a café laughing , and joking with fellow workers while my boss (at another table) was the only person who stood…Yesterday, I spoke to people at work who wanted to hit the very few people who didn’t stop…546,620 thousand people were at the ceremony at Atatürk’s mausoleum in Ankara yesterday…That is a fourfold increase on last years 127,392... So far this year nearly 11,000,000 people have been there…

Yesterday I got out of the city, and went to pick up my wife’s parents…When I arrived there was the Turkish flag in the window…I am not allowed to talk politics with my elderly father-in-law in case it upsets him…Unfortunately this week the usual substitute of football, and Beşiktaş wasn’t guaranteed to have the same effect…The wife corrected the mother-in-law when she called some demonstrators on T.V terrorists…They are just leftist kids, Mum…In case you are wondering there have been no more demonstrations against the war. It was from a series about the 70s…There was a lot of talk about ‘how much we all miss Atatürk’, and how he would have dealt with the terrorists, … I think I mentioned it before, but in case you have forgotten my father-in-law is a Kurd…

It is a bit like my friend F…She talks about how the Arabs are dirty, and not to be trusted…There is nothing strange in this in itself…It is the fact that she is a native Arabic speaker, and has relatives on the Syrian side of the border, which makes it seem just a little incongruous…This is the reality of 84 years of assimilation…

In other news a politician said that he would have rather that the eight Turkish soldiers who were kidnapped had been killed than brought dishonour on the army…The DTP (pro-Kurdish party) has elected a new ‘hard line’ leadership…Newspapers report from their congress that ‘A small Turkish flag was hung in the congress hall, but the Turkish national anthem was not played and no picture of the republic’s founder, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk…Will their party be closed down?…Two Gendarmerie officers are being charged with complicity in the murder of the journalist Hrant Dink…

The immediate threat of war seems to have diminished. The parliamentary decision though is valid for one year. It is time for some analysis…

Devrim

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Where would your 'whatever happens...' leave you then, supporting the allies of the Amerikkka?

Why not try to answer the question, Left Henry?

I already said that this won't happen because the US has deemed the Kurdistan Worker's Party a terrorist organization is fighting a "war of terror" meaning that it is fighting againt whatever group it deems terrorist.


The PKK has not claimed to be a Marxist group for many years, not that it would make any difference to their anti working class nature if it did.

The PKKs eventual goal is the building of a socialist state in Kurdistan. That's a stated goal in their program.


Is this a problem for you? The fact that Kurdish socialists don't support these anti-working class nationalist gangs?

So you reject the national question? The question of oppressed nationalities, and the right to self-determination?? That is an anti-working class line because you're siding with oppressive bourgeoisies against super-exploited and oppressed working class. National Oppression is a product of capitalism and the bourgeoisie, resistance to it is crucial to bringing down imperialism.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by LeftyHenryML+November 11, 2007 08:40 pm--> (LeftyHenryML @ November 11, 2007 08:40 pm)
Where would your 'whatever happens...' leave you then, supporting the allies of the Amerikkka?

Why not try to answer the question, Left Henry?

I already said that this won't happen because the US has deemed the Kurdistan Worker's Party a terrorist organization is fighting a "war of terror" meaning that it is fighting againt whatever group it deems terrorist.
[/b]
As you refuse to answer a theoretical question, let's make it a practical one.

What about PEJAK cooperating with the US in Iran? A part of the PKK's organisation is already actively working with the US.

Do you envisage a situation where you support the PKK in one country, but oppose them as 'imperialist puppets' in the next'?

For a Maoist you put a lot of faith in the legal forms of the imperialists. We in the Middle East are fully aware that it doesn't matter how they legal deem the status of some organisation to be. The US will deal with terrorists when they have to.

Or do you merely thing that US intelligence is so bad that they haven't noticed that the PKK, and PEJAK are different parts of the same organisation.


Originally posted by LeftyHenryML+--> (LeftyHenryML)
[email protected]
The PKK has not claimed to be a Marxist group for many years, not that it would make any difference to their anti working class nature if it did.


The PKKs eventual goal is the building of a socialist state in Kurdistan. That's a stated goal in their program.[/b]

I can't check the PKK's programme ass their websites are blocked to us. I would remind you that the German SPD still has references to socialism in its programme.


=LeftyHenryML
Devrim
Is this a problem for you? The fact that Kurdish socialists don't support these anti-working class nationalist gangs?

So you reject the national question? The question of oppressed nationalities, and the right to self-determination?? That is an anti-working class line because you're siding with oppressive bourgeoisies against super-exploited and oppressed working class. National Oppression is a product of capitalism and the bourgeoisie, resistance to it is crucial to bringing down imperialism.

This sounds like you have copied it off a badly written student leaflet. We are not siding with 'oppressive bourgeoisies against super-exploited and oppressed working class', but siding with the working class, and for neither bourgeois gang.

But if you want to continue with this analysis please explain how the Kurdish working class is 'super-exploited'. They for example two workers, one Turkish, and one Kurdish doing the same job, say for example at Turk Telekom, and getting paid the same wage. How is the Kurd 'super-exploited'? Both are workers and have the same class interests.

National oppression is not a product of capitalism, but existed before capitalism did. That doesn't mean that capitalism hasn't extended it.

Imperialism is a world system, and no single nation can break out of it.

We would say that you were the one with an 'anti-working class line' as you are advocating that the working class give up their own class interests, and go off, and die on behalf of 'their own' bourgeoisie.

You can't get more anti-working class than that.

Devrim

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 05:01 pm
The immediate threat of war seems to have diminished.
It seems at this point the US can't afford any more instability in the region as this would loosen it's grip on the mid-east more then it has already.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 08:40 pm
I already said that this won't happen because the US has deemed the Kurdistan Worker's Party a terrorist organization is fighting a "war of terror" meaning that it is fighting againt whatever group it deems terrorist.
You grossly underestimate the opportunism of the American government.

It is well known that the CIA was still cooperating with bin Ladin long after the FBI put it in its list of wanted people, and Al Qaida was labeled as a terrorist organisation.

Luís Henrique

[Marsella]

Eight Turkish troops taken hostage by Kurdish rebels after a deadly ambush have been charged with neglecting their duty during the clash, a defense attorney said Sunday.

The Oct. 21 ambush, which killed 12 other soldiers, had increased pressure on Turkey's government stage a cross-border offensive against Kurdish rebel bases in northern Iraq — an operation the U.S. has discouraged for fear of destabilizing a relatively calm part of Iraq.

Rebels released the eight captive soldiers earlier this month. They were charged Saturday with "disobedience that could lead to a major catastrophe" and "undermining military discipline," said lawyer Ramazan Korkmaz, who represents the soldiers. Two of the soldiers also face a charge of "escaping abroad."

Rebels from the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, ambushed the soldiers in southeastern Turkey and held them hostage at a rebel base across the border in Iraq.

Fighting in the border area has claimed dozens of lives on the Turkish side — most of them soldiers — in less than two months. During the same period, at least 88 rebels have been killed, according to the Turkish military and media reports.

Korkmaz, who was not allowed to go through the court file but was present at Saturday's hearing, said the soldiers were accused of "not properly fulfilling their national duty."

The soldiers told the court that they had run out of ammunition and some of their weapons were not working when the rebels took them hostage, Korkmaz said. There was no further explanation of why the charges were brought.

Last week, Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin suggested that the soldiers should have fought to the death rather than allowed themselves to be captured.

"I could not accept the fact that these soldiers went with the terrorists that night after the operation," Sahin said. "Our soldier is the one who ought to risk falling as a martyr while protecting his homeland." Turkey Charges Kidnapped Soldiers with Neglect (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gVogOBIQ4K3_Pfn9kFV0xdb6lwjQD8SRPL1O2)

So, they would have preferred them dead rather than kidnapped.

It begs belief, does it not?

[Devrim]

President Gül announces that Turkey will fight terror to the end…The UN says it understands Turkey’s concerns: "The secretary-general fully understands Turkey's national security concerns. In that regard, he continues to urge Iraqi authorities to do everything possible to curtail armed groups using Iraqi territory to launch cross-border attacks on Turkey”…Polls say that 81% support cross boarder military operations, up from 46% in July…On Friday, the chief prosecutor of the Supreme Court of Appeals on Friday opened a closure court case against the DTP (Democratic Society Party)…and everyday the Turkish army continues to shell Iraq…This is called peace…

Devrim

[Devrim]

GoSomebody from the CWO wrote:

Originally posted by CWO member
We had heard from the GIS in Berlin about the clashes between Kurdish nationalists and Turkish nationalists there. What a contrast to the Mayday demonstrations when many Kurdish and Tuirkish workers march together in European capitals where (especially in the UK) hardly anyone else marches at all. However the question that all this poses it why the Turkish regime has decided to play this card now. It is not a abaout any general explanation such as “decomposiiton” or decadence but about the precise needs of the Turkish state and government now. It cannot be because they are threatened with the struggle of the working class (since apart from the telecom strike there is little for them to fear). It is not because the PKK is more active now than it has been, since these incursions have been going on for decades (and the Turkish Army knows how to quietly fight a dirty war). It cannot be because the Turkish state is becoming anti-american since it is a key supply route ot Iraq (as well as a key player for the US in the region). It is also not because the Government of Erdogan feels weak since it just triumphed unambiguously in the elections.Some comrades suggest that it may be to do with trying to liquidate the Kurdish problem once and for all by preparing to expand into Iraq for the oil of Kirkuk? This I don’t think is the case because the consequences for everyone would be general conflagration (but am prepared to listen to arguments). Are the isues relly internal to Trukey. Is it because there is a conflict between the Erdogan Government and the Army high command? Erdogan is threanening to accede to Army requests to invade Iraq in order to ensure its loyalty after the ruling class split over the election of Gul as President? The nationalist card is usually played by Governments who are desperate about their hold on power but this is not the case here unless it is simply that Erdogan does not want the Army to outmanoeuvre him on the national security front and sabre -rattling helps to reunify the vernment and the Army High Command. What do you think?

It is time for some analysis. These questions can help to start the discussion.

Another point could be an interesting article from Al_Ahram (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/870/op3.htm) stressing the conflict between Turkey, and the US.


America, Ankara and the Kurds
Washington's U-turns on the Kurds have come so fast that you might be forgiven for thinking the US is trapped in a set of revolving doors, writes Galal Nassar

It was the US administration that gave the main two Kurdish Parties -- The Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) of Masoud Barzani, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) of Jalal Talabani -- permission to harbour members of the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK). The latter established offices and training camps in northern Iraq in full view of the US occupation forces. Which raises these two questions: why did the US administration encourage dissident Kurds to spring to action? And why did it change its position when the Turkish government decided to go into Iraq?

The story begins with the end of World War I, when Mustafa Kemal Ataturk created a European- style Turkish republic on the ruins of the Ottoman Caliphate. Many Turks consider Ataturk the founder of modern Turkey and a symbol of progress and reform. During his rule Ataturk absolutely refused the creation of a Kurdish entity in southeast Turkey.

Ataturk gave Western countries something they always wanted and had tried and failed to accomplish by force. In the first 15 years of his rule, he turned Turkey around, introducing a secular system, modern government and separating the mosque and state. He accorded women rights and introduced the Latin alphabet. These changes paved the way for closer links between the West and Turkey, especially after the end of WWII.

During the Cold War, Turkey came to be viewed as a major ally by the West, not least because it bordered the then Soviet Union, as well as oil-rich Iraq and Iran. It controls land routes to Afghanistan, India, Pakistan and China. It straddles the Dardanelles, the waterway connecting the Soviet Union to the world. And it has borders with Syria, the gateway to Palestine and the Arab peninsula.

Turkey was central to Western schemes concerning the Middle East. The Dwight D. Eisenhower Doctrine of the mid-1950s gave Turkey a major role, and it a major partner in the Central Treaty Organisation (CENTO) and the Baghdad Pact. Even during the Turkish-Greek conflict over Cyprus the US took a neutral stand, at least in public. For all the historical and cultural ties between Greece and the West the US wasn't about to risk Ankara's ire.

At one point Turkey forged close ties with Israel. This was particularly true under Turgut Ozal's government. In 1989, Ozal proposed to transfer water from Turkey to Israel. He didn't even consult with Syria and Iraq. Turkey built major reservoirs on the Euphrates, the largest of which was behind the Ataturk Dam. Ozal argued that Turkey was entitled to control water resources just as the Arabs control oil. When the Gulf war took place, following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, Turkey sided with the Western coalition. Turkish sources suggest Ozal hoped to annex Mosul and Kirkuk during the course of the war and ordered Necip Torumtay, the army's chief of staff, to make plans to achieve this. Only strong opposition from both Torumtay, and prime minister Yildirim Akbulut, aborted the move.

When the PKK was formed, with a separatist, Marxist agenda, it was clear which side the US was going to take. Washington sided with Ankara, viewing PKK actions within an essentially Cold War context. The PKK was engaged in acts of terror and armed struggle against a US ally. It was seeking to form a Kurdish state in southeast Turkey, a move that had no international or regional backing. The CIA cooperated with the Turks, helping them arrest PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan in the Kenyan capital Nairobi. Ocalan is now in a Turkish prison.

Things started to change with the rise of the Islamists in Turkey. As public opinion in Turkey started to show sympathy with the Palestinians and the Iraqis the Americans began to have second thoughts. By the time Necmettin Erbakan came to power the tide had already changed. Turkish demonstrators chanted slogans supporting the rock- throwing children of Palestine, and protests were staged against the US embargo of Iraq.

The 2003 occupation of Iraq was a watershed. The Turkish parliament voted against participation in the war. Protesters marched across Turkey denouncing the war. Turkish politicians took a dim view of the political arrangements the Americans were introducing across the border, especially the constitution and federalism. The Americans felt the need to retaliate. This was when they sanctioned PKK facilities in Irbil and Dahuk in northern Iraq.

Turkey made it clear that it would not tolerate the creation of a Kurdish state in northern Iraq, nor would it approve of the Kurds gaining control of Kirkuk. The Americans pretended not to listen. Meanwhile, popular displeasure with Washington's pro-Israeli policies has mounted steadily in Turkey. Sympathy with the Palestinians has taken many forms, most recently convening an international conference on Jerusalem that Turkish NGOs plan to hold in Ankara in mid-November 2007.

Tensions increased when the US Congress passed a non-binding decision calling for the partition of Iraq, something which observers saw as a way of putting Turkey in its place. Then came a bigger blow, with Congress condemning Turkey for genocide against the Armenians. All the above, coupled with the escalation of PKK operations, hardened the resolve of the Turks.

The Americans were seemingly too weighed down by other problems to dispute the decision by Recep Tayyip Erdogan's government to send troops into northern Iraq. Reacting to the Turkish decision, US officials merely stated that issues of security in northern Iraq were Kurdish, not US, responsibility. But does this wash? Has the US turned a blind eye to Kurdish separatists to punish an increasingly independent Turkey? And will Turkey now fall back in line?

Devrim

[Marion]

Is it because there is a conflict between the Erdogan Government and the Army high command? Erdogan is threanening to accede to Army requests to invade Iraq in order to ensure its loyalty after the ruling class split over the election of Gul as President? The nationalist card is usually played by Governments who are desperate about their hold on power but this is not the case here unless it is simply that Erdogan does not want the Army to outmanoeuvre him on the national security front and sabre -rattling helps to reunify the vernment and the Army High Command. What do you think?

Out of interest, there was a recent article in the London Review of Books (by Patrick Cockburn - can't find the article on the web though) mentioning this idea:


The theory that factions in the Turkish army are fearful of losing power to the civilian government of Erdogan and are stirring up the war in south-east Turkey has many followers in Iraq. It is one of three major conspiracy theories that attempt to explain the present crisis. Its proponents argue that secular nationalist Turkish officers were dismayed when Erdogan and his party were triumphantly re-elected with 47% of the vote on 22 July and further dismayed when the army failed to stop the former foreign minister Abdullah Gul, for whom they reserve special contempt, from becoming president. Some officers think that an invasion of Iraqi Kurdistan would be a good way of exciting nationalist fervour in Turkey. With conflict under way the influence of the Turkish army would once again increase
The second conspiracy theory is that Ocalan is being manipulated by the Turkish military (getting him to step up PKK actions) and the third is that the PKK is an "American surrogate" (due to PEJAK's links with the US).

The author states that elements of all three conspiracy theories are probably correct to an extent, arguing that "The PKK and the Turkish army have parallel interests" and that "Erdogan might not be able to resist the pressure for an invasion". He sees the PKK and the Turkish army as the big losers in the last election (the former as "Erdogan's administration is the most sympathetic to the Kurds in years" leading to PKK support diminishing").

I don't really feel qualified to make any specific comments on these views but would be very interested to read anyone else's opinions.

Finally, I am not sure what the CWO member means by "It is not a abaout any general explanation such as “decomposiiton” or decadence but about the precise needs of the Turkish state and government now." Regardless of one's views of the theories of decomposition or decadence it seems to suggest a line can be drawn between the "needs of the Turkish state and government" and the current situation of international capital. However, this is perhaps my misreading more than anything as I doubt this is what is intended.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 10:35 am
The author states that elements of all three conspiracy theories are probably correct to an extent,
Yes, the reason that there are so many conspiracy theories in the Middle East is that their are so many conspiracies.

I think the first one has the best analysis. In fact I would say that this is an analysis rather than a conspiracy theory. The second one is a conspiracy. While I am not suggesting it is true. I certainly wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be. As for the third, I don't think that the PKK is an American surrogate yet, but certainly the US is working with PEJAK, and the Egyptian article above does seem to imply that the US is locked in a conflict with Turkey. To some extent it is, but I think that noth that article, and Turkish public opinion overplay the split.


Finally, I am not sure what the CWO member means by "It is not a abaout any general explanation such as “decomposiiton” or decadence but about the precise needs of the Turkish state and government now.

I read it as a dig at the ICC.

Devrim