Who's More Likely to Promote Hate?

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Does anybody here ever speak out against hate by non-whites?


Equal Opportunity For High Decibel Haters!
By James Fulford

Recently Bob Herbert of the New York Times has come out with a critique of racist white music. (“High Decibel Hate”, NYT, August 20, 2001) Mr. Herbert has unearthed some genuine white racists who are actually preaching racial doctrines, hatred for other races, glorification of violence, and, instead of just denying the existence of the Holocaust, actually saying it was a Good Thing.

He’s talking about Hammerfest 2000, which took place in October, 2000, near Bremen, Georgia (pop. 4,500.) Nowhere in the story, which seems a bit stale in August of 2001, does he mention the attendance at this function:

The Anti-Defamation League puts it at – wait for it! – three hundred (300).

The plain fact is that, numerically, the white racist population in America is very small. When Morris Dees managed to have the Aryan Nation "compound" confiscated, what he got was a twenty-acre farm.

I am going to pause briefly to condemn these racist rockers as being "mad, bad, and dangerous to know." Personally, I don't like their doctrines, I don't like their attitude, and I'm sure if I listened to their music, I wouldn't like that either. OK?

But they don't represent white opinion in general. Nor are they much of a danger to society. There have been crimes committed by people who think that way in recent years, the most horrific being the death of James Byrd in Texas. But if you put all the deaths and injuries committed by these types the last ten years in a pile, it wouldn't equal two weeks of the violence committed in the last year of the Dinkins administration in New York. That year there were 2,000 murders in the NY metropolitan area.

I wrote recently about the Lonnie Rae ‘hate crime” in Idaho. Idaho's black population is only about 5000 according to the Census. But they certainly outnumber members of the Aryan Nations there.

There's an Intelligence Project set up by the SPLC to find these guys. Just the fact that you need an intelligence project to find them suggests that they're fairly small.

BUT – and it’s a big but - Herbert certainly knows about another kind of music that preaches racist doctrines, glorifies inter-racial violence, and whose artists are regularly involved in shootings.

It's called rap or hip-hop. It's a 1.7 billion dollar a year industry. It glorifies race hatred of whites, Jews, and Koreans. It also glorifies violence against women.

Rappers don’t only glorify violence, they commit it. Rappers often have a background in violent crime that they carry into the music industry with them. So you have people who are multi-millionaires committing crimes that are more typical of the hard-core unemployed. Rap music critics have been beaten and threatened. Frank Alexander, Tupac Shakur’s bodyguard, wrote a book called Got Your Back : Protecting Tupac in the World of Gangsta Rap, which talks about a lifestyle that sounds like it came out of a Robert B. Parker novel.

New York Magazine published an article that asked “After a series of high-profile run-ins with hip-hop musicians, the NYPD is circulating an internal list identifying their cars. Is it "rapper profiling"?”

No, you idiots, it’s gangster profiling.

White racism may have inspired several murders and a number of beatings, not to mention harassment campaigns. Rappers have started whole riots. The Koreans were victims in the Rodney King riots of 1992; Jews were victims in the Crown Heights pogrom, Whites have been victimized by multiple riots this year.

There are rap songs that support these events. Unlike the racist rockers of Hammerfest, however, the hip-hoppers and rappers have managed to get their songs on the record industry charts.

Have the Aryans done or inspired anything as bad as Crown Heights or the Rodney King riots? Perhaps they would if they could. But the answer is no. (McVeigh was actuated by non-racial motives.)

The reason for that is that racial violence is considered shameful in the mainstream white community. So it should be, of course.

It's not nearly as shameful in the black community. When Jamaican immigrant Colin Ferguson shot up the Long Island Railroad because of a berserk hatred of whites, Khalid Muhammad of the Nation of Islam made a speech in which he said that ``Colin Ferguson, who killed all those white folks on the Long Island train, I love Colin Ferguson... God spoke to Colin Ferguson and said, `Catch the train, Colin, catch the train.’ ”

In that case, Ferguson’s hate was actually supposed to be a defense. “Black rage” syndrome was supposed to have driven him insane. When the riots erupted in Los Angeles, black members of Congress insisted on calling them an "uprising" rather than a riot. They felt that the white power structure deserved to be rioted against.

Compare the white racist musicians of Bremen, and their audience of three hundred with the attendees at the recent hip-hop Source Awards in Miami Beach.

Jeremy Sapienza has a story about the experience of being in Miami Beach during that weekend. He says that although Miami Beach was prepared for the worst, (the previous year’s ceremony had to be closed by the police after fighting broke out in the audience), only three people were stabbed during the festivities. Only! Tens of thousands of hip-hop fans and artists were in Miami Beach celebrating a style of music that’s at least as bad as anything done by Hammerfest.

This badness has to be heard to be believed. One of the attendees at the Source Awards was Luther Campbell, who was briefly jailed in Florida in 1990 for obscenity. While he was freed on First Amendment grounds there’s no doubt the lyrics were obscene. (If you are over 18, and have a strong stomach you can click here for samples. If you’re under 18 you probably listen to worse every day. Note: I’m not kidding about the strong stomach.)

Another group, NWA, has this to say about its work:

Efil4zaggin (Niggaz4life spelt backwards) which made US number 1, also surpassed the outrage factor of its predecessor by addressing gang rape and paedophilia, in addition to the established agenda of oral sex, cop killing and prostitution. Musically, it contained furious blasts of raggamuffin and 70s funk, but that was somehow secondary.

“Somehow secondary” is probably the way that the musicians of Bremen would have described their attitude to their actual music. But it’s amazing that their hate got covered by Bob Herbert on the Op-Ed page of the New York Times - almost a year later - when the Source Awards were just last weekend….

I guess some things are just too big to see.


http://www.vdare.com/fulford/herbert.htm

[Dimentio]

Actually, some really crazy white music is surprisingly good, like for example Satanic Warmaster.

Vampiric Tyrant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBTiCSAIXU)

I think this is the "white" counter-equivalent to really violent gangsta rap.

http://www.burningchurch.de/images/burningchurch.jpg

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 03:21 pm
I think this is the "white" counter-equivalent to really violent gangsta rap.

Since when did a communist have sympathy for a church burning? Religion is bad, remember?

I read about the Spanish Anarchists and they destroyed churches as well. Sure, it wasn't racially motivated and I bet that those Black congregates at that church were fervent anti-communists.

Misogyny in Gangsta Rap (http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol8is2/armstrong.html)


"Kill the white people; we gonna make them hurt; kill the white people; but buy my record first; ha, ha, ha";
"Kill d'White People"; Apache, Apache Ain't Shit, 1993, Tommy Boy Music, Time Warner, USA.

"Niggas in the church say: kill whitey all night long. . . . the white man is the devil. . . . the CRIPS and Bloods are soldiers I'm recruiting with no dispute; drive-by shooting on this white genetic mutant. . . . let's go and kill some rednecks. . . . Menace Clan ain't afraid. . . . I got the .380; the homies think I'm crazy because I shot a white baby; I said; I said; I said: kill whitey all night long. . . . a nigga dumping on your white ass; fuck this rap shit, nigga, I'm gonna blast. . . . I beat a white boy to the motherfucking ground";
"Kill Whitey"; Menace Clan, Da Hood, 1995, Rap-A-Lot Records, Noo Trybe Records, subsidiaries of what was called Thorn EMI and now is called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

"Devils fear this brand new shit. . . . I bleed them next time I see them. . . . I pray on these devils. . . . look what it has come to; who you gonna run to when we get to mobbing. . . . filling his body up with lead, yah; cracker in my way; slitting, slit his throat; watch his body shake; watch his body shake; that's how we do it in the motherfucking [San Francisco] Bay. . . .

Sitting on the dock of the dirty with my AK"; "Heat-featuring Jet and Spice 1";
Paris, Unleashed, 1998, Unleashed Records, Whirling Records.

"These devils make me sick; I love to fill them full of holes; kill them all in the daytime, broad motherfucking daylight; 12 o'clock, grab the Glock; why wait for night"; "Sweatin Bullets"; Brand Nubian, Everything Is Everything, 1994, Elektra Entertainment, Warner Communications, Time Warner, USA.

"A fight, a fight, a nigger and a white, if the nigger don't win then we all jump in. . . . smoking all [of] America's white boys";

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This sort of Gangsta Rap is merely the black equivalent of National Socialist Black Metal. Doesn't stop me listening to other kinds of metal and rap.

Racism by non-white is still deplorable of course, it just doesn't happen as often as white-on-nonwhite racism.

[Dr Mindbender]

black 'supremacy' is a negligible phenomenon and is not a social threat anywhere near on a par with white supremacy. This is why these incidents, while intolerable should not raise nearly as much concern as anti-black or anti-hispanic hate say, since it does not have the potential to esculate into political instability since whites still constitute a good 80% of the american population, therefore non whites are a far more vulnerable demographic. Thats as simple as i can put it, it isnt double-standards.

[La Comédie Noire]

Well considering the popular hip hop and rap scene is controlled by white business men....

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Actually, the point of this thread was to show the apparent bias in news reporting. How come they do stories about white supremacy culture but never about black or hispanic supremacy?

[Cult of Reason]

Floyd: Businessmen, wihte or not, probably wouldn't care about the lyrics if they sold. The only reason they probably don't do white power music is because it would cause an outcry.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 19, 2007 05:43 am
Actually, the point of this thread was to show the apparent bias in news reporting. How come they do stories about white supremacy culture but never about black or hispanic supremacy?
Probably because, historically speaking, white supremacists have had far more power (and therefore have been far more able to put their ideas into practice) than any other kinds of racists.

After all, black supremacists never governed countries. White supremacists did. People who were important in the past get more press than people who weren't, even if they're all equally irrelevant today.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 19, 2007 03:43 am
Actually, the point of this thread was to show the apparent bias in news reporting. How come they do stories about white supremacy culture but never about black or hispanic supremacy?
i dont think thats bias, i think thats simply proportional to and reflective over which one is most prominent.

[Jazzratt]

We talk about white racism more for the same reason we talk about male sexism*. It has a greater impact on our society, here in the west we have a white majority and a male dominance. When an oppressed group decides that it is them that should be in the place of the oppressors it is understandable, although it obviously not laudable.


===
*No doubt U$ pundits like O RLY? and Rush Limburger scream about "feminazis" but that's because they feel threatened by sexual equality - after all it'd fuck their old boys club right up.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

We talk about white racism more for the same reason we talk about male sexism*. It has a greater impact on our society,

I'm talking about White Supremacy. Not just simple bigotry and prejudice by individuals.

Why was there story even dedicated to this sort of thing when there is black supremacy occuring in mainstream rap music?


When an oppressed group decides that it is them that should be in the place of the oppressors it is understandable, although it obviously not laudable.

Define an "oppressed group"? Can white people be oppressed?

And there's lot of whining about girls body images, career and money potential, stuff like that. You seem to think that boys have it better. The fact that boys are more likely to end up in prison, dead in Iraq, or a non-high school graduate who dies from a heart attack at an early age, doesn't seem to enter into the discussion.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Capitalist Lawyer+--> (Capitalist Lawyer)Define an "oppressed group"? Can white people be oppressed?[/b]
Any ethnic group can be oppressed, but thats unlikely to happen when they already form four fiths of the population.


Capitalist Lawyer

And there's lot of whining about girls body images, career and money potential, stuff like that. You seem to think that boys have it better. The fact that boys are more likely to end up in prison, dead in Iraq, or a non-high school graduate who dies from a heart attack at an early age, doesn't seem to enter into the discussion.

What about the way in which women are less likely to earn equivalent wages to men in the same profession, or recieve promotion despite being equally qualified?

[Phalanx]

After all, black supremacists never governed countries. White supremacists did. People who were important in the past get more press than people who weren't, even if they're all equally irrelevant today.

Robert Mugabe anyone?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 19, 2007 07:15 pm

We talk about white racism more for the same reason we talk about male sexism*. It has a greater impact on our society,

I'm talking about White Supremacy. Not just simple bigotry and prejudice by individuals.
Right, but the one stems from the other.


Why was there story even dedicated to this sort of thing when there is black supremacy occuring in mainstream rap music?

Because "black supremacy" isn't a threat. Black supremacists don't commit nearly as many murders and they certainly have no mainstream political parties (unlike WS groups who have the BNP among others.).


Define an "oppressed group"? Can white people be oppressed?

In the context? Any group that is oppressed in a way beyond their relation to the means of production (Women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities and so on). It can be argued that it some parts of the world whites are oppressed, but you're arguing from the U$ and the west so it is not the case that whites have any special oppression.


And there's lot of whining about girls body images, career and money potential, stuff like that. You seem to think that boys have it better.

Well they do. The entirety of society is designed to give men an advantage. The reason women who do anything worthwhile become media darlings is because they had to struggle every step of the way and had to work for things that men could get handed to them on a plate.


The fact that boys are more likely to end up in prison,

Yeah, but who do you think the victim is more likely to be?


dead in Iraq,

Don't try to pretend that not letting women serve on the front line is somehow a great victory of feminism.


or a non-high school graduate who dies from a heart attack at an early age,

I'd like to see the statistic you're basing this one off.


doesn't seem to enter the discussion.

Not when compared to the systematic oppression of women, no.

[La Comédie Noire]

Floyd: Businessmen, wihte or not, probably wouldn't care about the lyrics if they sold. The only reason they probably don't do white power music is because it would cause an outcry.

Yes, and your point?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 09:47 pm

After all, black supremacists never governed countries. White supremacists did. People who were important in the past get more press than people who weren't, even if they're all equally irrelevant today.

Robert Mugabe anyone?
An isolated case. Besides those white Afrikanners have their neighbouring Orange state to migrate to. The point is, theres never been a black supremacist in charge of a Western state where there is a significant white population. The white population in Zimbabwe was probably miniscule when Mugabe came in.

[Cult of Reason]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 20, 2007 03:32 am

Floyd: Businessmen, wihte or not, probably wouldn't care about the lyrics if they sold. The only reason they probably don't do white power music is because it would cause an outcry.

Yes, and your point?
Obviously I misunderstood you. Whatever. I must have been tired.


Yeah, but who do you think the victim is more likely to be?

I thought most crime was perpetrated by young males against other young males?

[RNK]

Hi

Plz be enslaved for 200 years, be segregated and abandoned by society for another 100 years, live in a country where the government has to step in to ensure you're treated equally and have the same oppurtunities as everyone else for another 30 years, and then come ***** that black people intimidate you with their whitey-hating rhetoric.

Thx.

[RNK]

I'd also like to point out the irony in this sort of "omfg black people hate whites too!!!" bullshit.

First off, the majority of racist white people are fucking idiots who hate other races based on utterly baseless causes -- other races are somehow "inferior", that the "white race must prevail and destroy all other races", that "non-whites cause crime, are biologically prone to violence", blah blah blah.

Why do blacks hate whites, though?

"My people in Africa are kept in utter social and economic ruin while white western corporations monopolize all of our resources and industries", "my people were enslaved for a few centuries and treated like animals, pets, beasts of burden, and there is a large movement to this day which carries on the spirit of that utter violation of human rights by perpetuating the same hate and the same twisted logic used to justify it then", "the socioeconomic situation prevailing in the United States serves to create an unofficial, unsactioned but still completely existant form of segregation that casts its shadow over all of the country. Being born a black, my future is, for the most part, filled with struggle and hopelessness, as I see my brothers and sisters around me suffer and hurt under the pressures of this system."

Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of blacks who "hate" whites are fully aware of the reality of the situation -- there are a few irrational members of their community who think the only way to stop their suffering is to exterminate the "white race" but the vast, vast majority of these "whitey-haters" do not wish to impose their beliefs on whites. Quite the contrary. They simply want to be treated as equals, and be given the same oppurtunities as whites -- or they want to completely reject "white society" and become a self-determining people in their own right.

I don't see Nazis talking about wanting "equal oppurtunity" with blacks, or wanting to "move away from America to form a whites-only society", or wanting to be treated "equally". No. They abhor equality and want blacks to be forcefully removed from their society; they want priviledged oppurtunity.

In essence, the racist white community is predominantly made up of hateful self-interest; the "racist" black community is predominantly made up of defensive self-interest. So it's entirely idiotic to try and group the two together, particularly without addressing the magnitude of difference between them.

Why do you care, anyway? Do you stay up at night, crying to yourself for hours because the lyrics of that nasty black man hurt your feelings? Do you have panic attacks in public when you're surrounded by black people because all you can think of is them suddenly forming a mob, wrapping a rope around your neck and hanging you from the nearest tree?

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 18, 2007 09:28 am
Does anybody here ever speak out against hate by non-whites?

I do. And so does the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/index.jsp). As a matter of fact, if I were you I'd look at their Intelligence Report and hate group map.

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader 5.0 and higher to view this
Hate Groups
Map (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate/hate_map_ir125_adjusted.pdf)

As it is, nobody takes groups like NOI seriously. The only problem a white person really has in this society is probably getting into a fight with some street person for being white. Given what happened in Jena, Louisiana, it doesn't seem it's as big a problem.

[Revolucija]

We should avoid generalisation like this. You just can't call a subculture like this racist.

Racism is a danger and we should fight it; whether it is "white racism" or "black racism". We even shouldn't make a difference since we are not racists.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Not when compared to the systematic oppression of women, no.

Correction: Not when compared to the systematic oppression of unattractive people.

There was an article in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/business/28cheer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) about how the drug companies recruit college cheerleaders to be sales reps. Male doctors prescribe a lot more drugs when the sales rep is a beautiful, fit and flirty blonde.

This article reinforce my point:

Attractive young women have it really easy. As a pharmaceutical sales rep they can make over $60,000/year after one year on the job and also get a free company car. No actual science knowledge is needed. Meanwhile, some ugly nerdy kid with high grades and a major in chemistry is making half as much money, if he can even find a job at all.


As for the income gap:

Feminists, instead of complaining about the wage gap, ought to be encouraging women to get degrees in subjects that are more economically useful.

Or by giving your sexual favors to men that earn less than you.


I'd like to see the statistic you're basing this one off.

It's common knowledge. Do I have to prove that water is wet too?

http://www.economist.com/science/displaySt...tory_id=3556139 (http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3556139)


Because "black supremacy" isn't a threat. Black supremacists don't commit nearly as many murders and they certainly have no mainstream political parties (unlike WS groups who have the BNP among others.).

I never said it was a threat.

But it's certainly more mainstream than white supremacy.

I remember reading about a march that an article was describing was allegedly to demonstrate against black gangs. So what do black gangs do? They prove the white supremacists' point by rioting.

Does America face a threat from neo-Nazi white supremacists? Based on the fact that only "two dozen" showed up to the march, I'd have to say that they are a pretty small fringe group. The hundreds of gang members who showed up to riot are a lot scarier.


Well they do. The entirety of society is designed to give men an advantage.

What kind of men? Better yet, what kind of people?

People with money andpr power by any chance?


In the context? Any group that is oppressed in a way beyond their relation to the means of production (Women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities and so on).

How about: Anybody who doesn't control any portion of the means of production?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 20, 2007 11:22 pm
Correction: Not when compared to the systematic oppression of unattractive people.
I think you chucked this one up before, it was bollocks then and it's (surprise, surprise) still bollocks now. It's based on non-materialist, idealist conceptions of the world and the personal prejudices of the person putting it forward.


There was an article in the NY Times[/URL] about how the drug companies recruit college cheerleaders to be sales reps. Male doctors prescribe a lot more drugs when the sales rep is a beautiful, fit and flirty blonde.

That proves nothing, except perhaps that objectification is still a problem in society.


Attractive young women have it really easy. As a pharmaceutical sales rep they can make over $60,000/year after one year on the job and also get a free company car.

Yeah, and how many normal, working class attractive women become pharmaceutical sales reps?


No actual science knowledge is needed. Meanwhile, some ugly nerdy kid with high grades and a major in chemistry is making half as much money, if he can even find a job at all.

Bollocks. Every scientific field is stuffed full of ugly nerdy blokes. Look at Dawkins for example.


Feminists, instead of complaining about the wage gap, ought to be encouraging women to get degrees in subjects that are more economically useful.

Bullshit. Women study just as hard as men, in the same sort of subjects. Instead of simply complaining that men doing the same job are earning more than them they should be organising in unions - or better yet taking the means of production themselves.


Or by giving your sexual favors to men that earn less than you.

Are you deliberately being a misogynist to get a rise out of us?


I never said it was a threat.

But it's certainly more mainstream than white supremacy.

So? If it's not a threat there is no problem with its mainstream nature. I sure as fuck have had more problems with white supremacists than black supremacists. Hell I've had more problems with white people.


I remember reading about a march that an article was describing was allegedly to demonstrate against black gangs. So what do black gangs do? They prove the white supremacists' point by rioting.

Gangs do that, it's got fuck all to do with what colour they are. YOu cannot march against gangs - otherwise the police'd be fucked.


Does America face a threat from neo-Nazi white supremacists?

Of course not. But they are simply the symptom of the white racism disease that pervades western society.


Based on the fact that only "two dozen" showed up to the march, I'd have to say that they are a pretty small fringe group. The hundreds of gang members who showed up to riot are a lot scarier.

I'm sure you're terrified of black people, but that's your problem not theirs.


What kind of men? Better yet, what kind of people?

White heterosexuals.


People with money andpr power by any chance?

They get money and power, partly due to capitalism and partly due to the way liberal western society is geared towards them.


How about: Anybody who doesn't control any portion of the means of production?

That would be exploited, but I do understand these people are oppressed. I guess a better term for what I was thinking of would be "discriminated people" or something like that, but it doesn't roll off the tongue so well.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 06:00 pm
We should avoid generalisation like this. You just can't call a subculture like this racist.

Racism is a danger and we should fight it; whether it is "white racism" or "black racism". We even shouldn't make a difference since we are not racists.
That's my ultimate point. No matter if it's whites or blacks being racist, it is still a segment of the
proletariat substituting hatred for any class analysis as to why they're in the situation they're in.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+October 21, 2007 04:46 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ October 21, 2007 04:46 pm)
[email protected] 20, 2007 06:00 pm
We should avoid generalisation like this. You just can't call a subculture like this racist.

Racism is a danger and we should fight it; whether it is "white racism" or "black racism". We even shouldn't make a difference since we are not racists.
That's my ultimate point. No matter if it's whites or blacks being racist, it is still a segment of the
proletariat substituting hatred for any class analysis as to why they're in the situation they're in. [/b]
While I agree that no racism should be tolerated, white racism needs more analysis and challenging because of the fact of white privilege.

It's not just blatant white racists that are the problem (which is the case with people of colour who hold racist views) but the whole societal system that privileges whiteness at every level.

Ignoring this is one of the major failings of liberal anti-racism- by not acknowledging the institutional character of racism it allows white privilege to persist.

As for the OP- I won't even bother address his idiocy. I think Jazz has done a good job.

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 23, 2007 10:20 pm
While I agree that no racism should be tolerated, white racism needs more analysis and challenging because of the fact of white privilege.

It's not just blatant white racists that are the problem (which is the case with people of colour who hold racist views) but the whole societal system that privileges whiteness at every level.

Ignoring this is one of the major failings of liberal anti-racism- by not acknowledging the institutional character of racism it allows white privilege to persist.

As for the OP- I won't even bother address his idiocy. I think Jazz has done a good job.
This is absolutely right.

[Ultra-Violence]

I think its funny haha those Black supremacist and Brown Supremacist are acting just like how YOU! Capitalist wnat them to act what else would you expect the Opressed act like their opresers thier acting like white people food for thouhgt

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPoMxgw03dY)

[Capitalist Lawyer]

We're not talking about white racism but rather about white supremacy.

The media covers it all the time but turns a cold shoulder to black or any other non-white supremacy.

Sorry, but I think the Latin Kings or even the Bloods are a lot more dangerous than white supremacists.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 02, 2007 02:25 am
We're not talking about white racism but rather about white supremacy.
It's because of white racism that white supremacy is such a threat. The system is already stacked in the favour of whites - and therefore their supremacist movements. White power groups are much larger as well (look at the membership numbers of stormfront if you don't believe me.).


The media covers it all the time but turns a cold shoulder to black or any other non-white supremacy.

That's because black supremacy is so fringe even the hyperbolic mass media would have trouble finding a way to make it look threatening. White power groups have a lot more of an advantage because the system is stacked in their favour and the negative propaganda about immigrants helps their agenda.


Sorry, but I think the Latin Kings or even the Bloods are a lot more dangerous than white supremacists.

Sorry, but you're deluded.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 02:59 pm

The media covers it all the time but turns a cold shoulder to black or any other non-white supremacy.

That's because black supremacy is so fringe even the hyperbolic mass media would have trouble finding a way to make it look threatening.
Well, that's not really accurate. The media encourages the mindset that Capitalist Lawyer here promotes; there is a certain fear of a growing, organized anti-white "gangster rap" culture that is primarily fueled by the bullshit media. I remember especially in late 90s seeing a lot of stories about how this new "dangerous, mysoginistic, racist, violent ad nauseum" rap culture was going to create a huge group of dangerous "urban youth." The white racism in America is hardly given much press unless it shows itself to be somewhat articulate, admirable, victimized, or otherwise charismatic.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

That's because black supremacy is so fringe even the hyperbolic mass media would have trouble finding a way to make it look threatening. White power groups have a lot more of an advantage because the system is stacked in their favour and the negative propaganda about immigrants helps their agenda.

And white supremacy isn't fringe? Only two dozen showed up to that march while hundreds of black gang members showed up and even rioted.


It's because of white racism that white supremacy is such a threat. The system is already stacked in the favour of whites - and therefore their supremacist movements. White power groups are much larger as well (look at the membership numbers of stormfront if you don't believe me.).

White supremcacy groups are composed of disenfranchised, poor white people.

Advantage? What a joke.

And if black people are performing badly, it's because of white privilege? Then explain why East Asian people are the second most successful ethnic group in the USA?

What is interesting is that a large proportion of East Asians in the US have a future time orientation.

Studies show that Blacks and Hispanics severly lack future time orientation.

You can't blame "white people" for Black and Hispanic ills because if it were true, Asians would not have found success in this country.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 03, 2007 05:14 pm

That's because black supremacy is so fringe even the hyperbolic mass media would have trouble finding a way to make it look threatening. White power groups have a lot more of an advantage because the system is stacked in their favour and the negative propaganda about immigrants helps their agenda.

And white supremacy isn't fringe? Only two dozen showed up to that march while hundreds of black gang members showed up and even rioted.
The thing with riots is the number of people involved tends to spiral upwards and most of them are just in it for the looting. I doubt there were more than a dozen people of colour who were genuinely "black supremacists". Gangs are, after all, primarily about self defence, especially against the biggest gang - the pigs.


White supremcacy groups are composed of disenfranchised, poor white people.

Advantage? What a joke.

Maybe the average bonehead you see on TV but the white power movement is made up of more than that. The Grand Wizard [*snigger*] of the KKK is often well off, hell a lot of KKK members are what you would call "middle class" (cops, white collar workers and so on). That's the scariest thing about white supremacist groups - a lot of the time the membership make up is a shock.


And if black people are performing badly, it's because of white privilege? Then explain why East Asian people are the second most successful ethnic group in the USA?

You know that not every ethnic group is equally discriminated against - right? Here in Britain, for example things are fare worse for Asians (of the central persuasion) than they are for, say, Hispanic people.


What is interesting is that a large proportion of East Asians in the US have a future time orientation.

Studies show that Blacks and Hispanics severly lack future time orientation.

What studies? How the fuck does one do a study into a certain group's "future time orientation"? Where were these studies published? What was the sample size? Was the control group method employed? Double-blind testing?

Or was it just some racist shit you pulled out of your arse, backed up by studies from the prestigious university of your arsecrack tech.


You can't blame "white people" for Black and Hispanic ills because if it were true, Asians would not have found success in this country.

Right so instead I've got to go with your stupid "blacks and hispanics are dirty, lazy, smelly, scary people who don't think ahead" shit? I'm surprised you haven't brought up The Bell Curve or started throwing around racial epithets.

[Jazzratt]

I'm going to move your post to tech support, I believe restricted members can post there.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

"future time orientation"?

To answer your question about future time orientation.

Presumably it refers to planning for a better future and placing future benefits over immediate gratification. So, for example, if a college student has a big test the next morning, and that evening his buddies ask him to go out and drink beer, something he really would enjoy doing, if he declines the invitation and studies for the test he’s demonstrating “future time orientation.”

The prisons are full of people lacking in “future time orientation,” because committing a crime to get some quick cash or get revenge at someone who pissed you off is an example of enjoying immediate gratification at the expense of one’s future. It’s no surprise that the prisons are disproportionately full of black people, evidence that a too large percentage of black people are severely lacking in “future time orientation.”


Right so instead I've got to go with your stupid "blacks and hispanics are dirty, lazy, smelly, scary people who don't think ahead" shit? I'm surprised you haven't brought up The Bell Curve or started throwing around racial epithets.

Yes, there is that stereotype that black people lazy, that the black man would rather hang out and do drugs and the black woman pop out a baby and live off welfare instead of working hard to secure a better future.

The link to Seattle schools I posted above says that it has been seen as racist to point this out, but the paragraph from the Seattle Public Schools website concedes that these negative stereotypes of blacks are actually true.

Again, they're acknowledging these stereotypes, not me.

You could also argue that Seattle Public Schools are saying that society itself is racist for rewarding people with “future time orientation.” Or maybe the paragraph means that it’s racist for white people to take advantage of their “future time orientation” to pull ahead of blacks, and to avoid being racist they should also be hanging out doing drugs and collecting welfare in order to create greater equality between the races.

Shouldn't you be telling the Seattle public school system that they're racists and not me?

[Capitalist Lawyer]

According to the Seattle Public schools, it is racist to teach future time orientation.


Cultural Racism:

having a future time orientation, emphasizing individualism as opposed to a more collective ideology, defining one form of nglish as standard, and identifying only Whites as great writers or composers.

Seattle Public Schools Website (http://www.fourmilab.ch/fourmilog/archives/seattle_schools_racism_2006-05-29/searace.htm)

[Capitalist Lawyer]

It finally made past your censors.

[Dean]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 05, 2007 11:09 pm
According to the Seattle Public schools, it is racist to teach future time orientation.


Cultural Racism:

having a future time orientation, emphasizing individualism as opposed to a more collective ideology, defining one form of nglish as standard, and identifying only Whites as great writers or composers.
The full text of your quote, which makes your argument clearly irrelevant to the point:

Cultural Racism:
Those aspects of society that overtly and covertly attribute value and normality to white people and Whiteness, and devalue, stereotype, and label people of color as “other”, different, less than, or render them invisible. Examples of these norms include defining white skin tones as (n u d e)* or flesh colored, having a future time orientation, emphasizing individualism as opposed to a more collective ideology, defining one form of English as standard, and identifying only Whites as great writers or composers.

In other words, the site is describing how a racist might distinguish what norms are attributed to white people as contrasts to other races. Tell me how that is wrong?

*RevLeft: please fix your filters; I don't see why the term "n u d e" should be blocked.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 05, 2007 11:04 pm

"future time orientation"?

To answer your question about future time orientation.

Presumably it refers to planning for a better future and placing future benefits over immediate gratification.
I had surmised as much.


It’s no surprise that the prisons are disproportionately full of black people,

Yes but not for the reasons you're trying to indicate. I'm afraid it's straight up racism from the cops, court systems and (yes) lawyers.


Yes, there is that stereotype that black people lazy, that the black man would rather hang out and do drugs and the black woman pop out a baby and live off welfare instead of working hard to secure a better future.

The link to Seattle schools I posted above says that it has been seen as racist to point this out, but the paragraph from the Seattle Public Schools website concedes that these negative stereotypes of blacks are actually true.

Right so it has generalised the psychology of a "race"? What evidence did they use. What was the method? Why do you find it even remotely believable?

Are you a big fan of this kind of rubbish (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bell-Curve-Intelligence-Structure-Paperbacks/dp/0684824299/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-3583437-8892433?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194340791&sr=8-1) by the way?


Again, they're acknowledging these stereotypes, not me.

No. They are acknowledging stereotypes and you are. Just because they've said something racist does not excuse you for believing racist myths.


You could also argue that Seattle Public Schools are saying that society itself is racist for rewarding people with “future time orientation.” Or maybe the paragraph means that it’s racist for white people to take advantage of their “future time orientation” to pull ahead of blacks, and to avoid being racist they should also be hanging out doing drugs and collecting welfare in order to create greater equality between the races.

The thing is that there is no proof that black people have a radically different "time orientation" to anyone else (beyond of course the fact that "all darkies are criminals" which seems to be the view you took earlier when arguing that prison statistics backed up your warped world view). What you've done is set up an implicit strawman - by begging the question on whether black people have a future time orientation or not you have basically forced people into accepting your ridiculous statement "to avoid being racist they should also be hanging out doing drugs and collecting welfare in order to create greater equality between the races.".

I don't know if you're actually that thick or just trolling, but I'm sure you're aware that no one is suggesting anything of the sort we are just questioning your racist assumptions.


Shouldn't you be telling the Seattle public school system that they're racists and not me?

The Seattle public school system is not on this website debating its point of view, you on the other hand are, furthermore you obviously agree with their conclusions so by calling you a racist for it I'm calling them racist by proxy.

[pusher robot]

Gangs are, after all, primarily about self defence, especially against the biggest gang - the pigs.


Well they sure do a shitty job, then, because by a huge margin the most likely killer of a young black male in the U.S. is another young black male, and not a police officer.


I'm afraid it's straight up racism from the cops, court systems and (yes) lawyers.

So you say, but of course no evidence is presented. Have you actually taken the time to walk around any U.S. cities and observe the people living in them?

I agree it's not a racial problem per se. But it is a cultural problem. You can't just blame whitey for everything.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 05:00 pm
So you say, but of course no evidence is presented. Have you actually taken the time to walk around any U.S. cities and observe the people living in them?

I agree it's not a racial problem per se. But it is a cultural problem. You can't just blame whitey for everything.
What causes this cultural problem? I've seen gang culture and problems with violence in various different parts of the world, whether it be my uncle warning me not to put down the windows as we drove through certain parts of DC or a different uncle explaining why he never stops at the traffic lights Johannasburg or me and my friends getting a little nervous when we wander drunk into the wrong parts of Glagow late at night.

In every case fear is caused by gangs looking for trouble. You say it is cultural, but the three cities all have different cultures. Some may say it is racial, but while the gangs in two of those examples are predominantly black, in the Glasgow example they are pedominantly white/

So what is the common ground? Simple all three cities are notable for the huge gaps in income and wealth in them. Poverty, absolute and relative creates an underclass where such problems thrive.

[Tungsten]

Ulster Socialist

An isolated case. Besides those white Afrikanners have their neighbouring Orange state to migrate to. The point is, theres never been a black supremacist in charge of a Western state where there is a significant white population. The white population in Zimbabwe was probably miniscule when Mugabe came in.
Oh, that's okay then.

RNK

Why do blacks hate whites, though?

"My people in Africa are kept in utter social and economic ruin while white western corporations monopolize all of our resources and industries",
Actually, reasons like this aren't much better. Forgive the cynicism, but I find it a tad contrived whenever I see some ethnic minority member who has never known slavery start going on about it in a tone that suggests that the rest of us owe him personally.

Note the emphasis.

Jazzratt

White heterosexuals.

They get money and power, partly due to capitalism and partly due to the way liberal western society is geared towards them.

Well fancy that...countries in which white heterosexuals are a majority end up having mostly white heterosexuals in positions of political and economic power.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:17 pm
Well fancy that...countries in which white heterosexuals are a majority end up having mostly white heterosexuals in positions of political and economic power.
This will be drifting somewhat from the priginal point. But gay people make up around 6% of the population, yet are obviously not represented to that degree in positions of power. At elast not gay people open about their sexuality anyway.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Demogorgon+November 06, 2007 05:34 pm--> (Demogorgon @ November 06, 2007 05:34 pm)
pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 05:00 pm
So you say, but of course no evidence is presented. Have you actually taken the time to walk around any U.S. cities and observe the people living in them?

I agree it's not a racial problem per se. But it is a cultural problem. You can't just blame whitey for everything.
What causes this cultural problem? I've seen gang culture and problems with violence in various different parts of the world, whether it be my uncle warning me not to put down the windows as we drove through certain parts of DC or a different uncle explaining why he never stops at the traffic lights Johannasburg or me and my friends getting a little nervous when we wander drunk into the wrong parts of Glagow late at night.

In every case fear is caused by gangs looking for trouble. You say it is cultural, but the three cities all have different cultures. Some may say it is racial, but while the gangs in two of those examples are predominantly black, in the Glasgow example they are pedominantly white/

So what is the common ground? Simple all three cities are notable for the huge gaps in income and wealth in them. Poverty, absolute and relative creates an underclass where such problems thrive. [/b]

What causes this cultural problem? I've seen gang culture and problems with violence in various different parts of the world, whether it be my uncle warning me not to put down the windows as we drove through certain parts of DC or a different uncle explaining why he never stops at the traffic lights Johannasburg or me and my friends getting a little nervous when we wander drunk into the wrong parts of Glagow late at night.

If we had a succinct answer to this question, this wouldn't be such a confounding problem. You indicate that poverty is the "root cause," but decades of anti-poverty programs have squandered billions while improving the situation not at all. Meanwhile, the material wealth of the poverty-stricken have increased while violence has gotten worse.

There have been a variety of causes proposed, everything from a cycle of poor parenting, to mass media, to lead poisoning. Probably there is no one answer, and certainly poverty plays SOME role. Yet your rationale does not explain why other groups apart from this culture can suffer the same crushing poverty, the same inequalities, and yet after a generation or two are prosperous, well-adjusted citizens.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 10:27 pm


If we had a succinct answer to this question, this wouldn't be such a confounding problem. You indicate that poverty is the "root cause," but decades of anti-poverty programs have squandered billions while improving the situation not at all. Meanwhile, the material wealth of the poverty-stricken have increased while violence has gotten worse.

There have been a variety of causes proposed, everything from a cycle of poor parenting, to mass media, to lead poisoning. Probably there is no one answer, and certainly poverty plays SOME role. Yet your rationale does not explain why other groups apart from this culture can suffer the same crushing poverty, the same inequalities, and yet after a generation or two are prosperous, well-adjusted citizens.
If poverty or class disparity isnt the chief factor, then explain why institutionalised violence and gansterism isnt prevailent in anywhere near the same extent within 'well to do' communities.

If you look at the issue within class context, you will see that it is a 'ghetto phenomenon'.

[pusher robot]

If poverty or class disparity isnt the chief factor, then explain why institutionalised violence and gansterism isnt prevailent in anywhere near the same extent within 'well to do' communities.

If the lack of pirates isn't the chief cause of global warming, then explain why worldwide temperature measurements have been going up EVER SINCE the decline of piracy on the high seas.

You're pointing out a correlation and jumping to the conclusion that there's an obvious causal relationship. But, there isn't.

Have you considered that the possibility that the relationship isn't that poverty causes violence and gangsterism but rather that violence and gangsterism cause poverty?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 10:44 pm

If poverty or class disparity isnt the chief factor, then explain why institutionalised violence and gansterism isnt prevailent in anywhere near the same extent within 'well to do' communities.

If the lack of pirates isn't the chief cause of global warming, then explain why worldwide temperature measurements have been going up EVER SINCE the decline of piracy on the high seas.

You're pointing out a correlation and jumping to the conclusion that there's an obvious causal relationship. But, there isn't.

Have you considered that the possibility that the relationship isn't that poverty causes violence and gangsterism but rather that violence and gangsterism cause poverty?
I feel its safe to discard your final theory because the most successful empires in history have acheived their wealth by the end of a sword and through the sights of a gun. If the British empire was pacifist, it would never have advanced across a quarter of the planet.

The gangsters, pimps and other miscreant groups within the lumpenproletariat are the ones living in a state of relative security. It is the poor law abiders who are suffering.

Maybe theres a lesson to be learnt there somewhere. :rolleyes:

EDIT: typo

[pusher robot]

I feel its safe to discard your final theory because the most successful empires in history have acheived their wealth by the end of a sword and through the sights of a gun. If the British empire was pacifist, it would never have advanced across a quarter of the planet.


You're totally conflating two very different things.

Systematic, organized violence is completely different than civil crime and street gangs.

After all, your point, if accepted, would also invalidate the one I was arguing against. If it is poverty that causes violence, then we would expect well-to-do communities to be pacifist; yet I suspect that all of them have a robust police force. Indeed, one of the reasons they tend to have less crime is because they expend considerable resources on security.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Have you considered that the possibility that the relationship isn't that poverty causes violence and gangsterism but rather that violence and gangsterism cause poverty?

I'd say it's lack of values and/or embracing the wrong values. But those causes don't apply to immigrants who migrate here because they are just starting up their lives in this country. And if they're smart with their kids and their kids resist their bad peers, they'll be better off than their parents.

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=72510

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 06, 2007 10:27 pm

If we had a succinct answer to this question, this wouldn't be such a confounding problem. You indicate that poverty is the "root cause," but decades of anti-poverty programs have squandered billions while improving the situation not at all. Meanwhile, the material wealth of the poverty-stricken have increased while violence has gotten worse.

There have been a variety of causes proposed, everything from a cycle of poor parenting, to mass media, to lead poisoning. Probably there is no one answer, and certainly poverty plays SOME role. Yet your rationale does not explain why other groups apart from this culture can suffer the same crushing poverty, the same inequalities, and yet after a generation or two are prosperous, well-adjusted citizens.
I should be quite clear and say I put the blame at the feet of relative poverty. Or to put it another way inequality. Gang situations always thrive in conditions of inequality. Indeed I think you will be hard pressed to find an urban situation where there is high inequality and little in the way of gangs or similair problems.

Incidentally in both America and Britain the material wealth of the worst off has been declining slightly over the last couple of decades. Another wonderful effect of economic policies in the eighties and no doubt the attendant crime is yet another part of the price we pay.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:17 pm
Jazzratt

White heterosexuals.

They get money and power, partly due to capitalism and partly due to the way liberal western society is geared towards them.

Well fancy that...countries in which white heterosexuals are a majority end up having mostly white heterosexuals in positions of political and economic power.
White, heterosexual men are not a majority, though they have power - and even if they were, the white men amongst them only constitute a minority amongst the whole population, and then the heterosexuality makes them an even smaller percentage -

example:
assume 49% men out of a 60% white population with 5% homosexual or bi (generously in your favor)

= .49*.6*.95 = ~28%, being extremely generous to your argument.

This is a clear minority.


Have you considered that the possibility that the relationship isn't that poverty causes violence and gangsterism but rather that violence and gangsterism cause poverty?
No, because violence clearly erupts in impoverished neighborhoods. The results can clearly help perpetuate it, but that doesn't change the basic and initial cause.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher robot+--> (pusher robot)
You're totally conflating two very different things.

Systematic, organized violence is completely different than civil crime and street gangs.[/b]

I don't think theyre that different. I think its just a matter of scale.

Why is violence any different or justifiable when it is done in the name of a dominant state?

pusher robot


After all, your point, if accepted, would also invalidate the one I was arguing against. If it is poverty that causes violence, then we would expect well-to-do communities to be pacifist; yet I suspect that all of them have a robust police force. Indeed, one of the reasons they tend to have less crime is because they expend considerable resources on security
I think its more of a case that the state security, ie. police makes more of an onus to protect priveleged society for 2 reasons- the middle and especially the upper class people directly benefit from the status quo and are more likely to vote in favour of the established government, so it is a case of the government 'acting to keep it's fans happy' and secondly they are the same social clique as the established authority so it is therefore a matter of common interest to concentrate anti-crime deterrence in richer neighbourhoods.

[synthesis]

Look, the question of the correlation between poverty and crime is not particularly hard to solve. When the state apparatus is perceived as an extension of the people, as in the suburbs and rural white areas, the police will be respected within the community and crime will be an aberration rather than the norm.

However, when the government is perceived as an alien mechanism of oppression within the entire community, it means the police will not be able to "properly" operate within that community. For one thing, very few in the ghetto will talk to police because they either assume the police will harass or demean them, or because the police are hated so much within the community that they fear internal retribution for contacting them.

This social disconnect between the people who are affected by the laws and the people who enforce them creates an environment where justice will come from the community, if it comes at all, which can be very rare. The lack of fear, for example, that the neighbors will call the cops if you run up and shoot some dude who's stealing your customers, always creates a milieu of "do whatever you can get away with that will benefit you the most."

The material conditions in these places creates a situation where the most benefit is to be gained by consolidating a virtual army and ruthlessly liquidating your competition. As an old ex-gangster told me a couple weeks ago, there wasn't always disregard for human life in the ghetto, but there were conditions where if a person could still sleep at night after killing a rival's family member, then there was a lot of gains to be had and no one to stop them.

This is pretty much universal. Any attempt to link crime solely to poverty, genetics or culture will fail because it will not be scientific and originate from ideology. It's no one group's "fault," it is a result of a society alienated from its law enforcement mechanisms.

[Tungsten]

Dean

White, heterosexual men are not a majority, though they have power - and even if they were, the white men amongst them only constitute a minority amongst the whole population, and then the heterosexuality makes them an even smaller percentage -

example:
assume 49% men out of a 60% white population with 5% homosexual or bi (generously in your favor)

= .49*.6*.95 = ~28%, being extremely generous to your argument.

This is a clear minority.
Women, generally, aren't as interested in politics as men, even when given the opportunity to participate. It would be interesting to see the ratio of men:women who post on this board for comparison. I don't know about homosexuals. Some politicians maybe "closet", particularly those on the religious right (imagine the damage to their reputation), and therefore don't always register in statistics.

I think the 60% white population statistic is a bit bogus, at least in my country. More like 85% here.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:33 pm
Dean

White, heterosexual men are not a majority, though they have power - and even if they were, the white men amongst them only constitute a minority amongst the whole population, and then the heterosexuality makes them an even smaller percentage -

example:
assume 49% men out of a 60% white population with 5% homosexual or bi (generously in your favor)

= .49*.6*.95 = ~28%, being extremely generous to your argument.

This is a clear minority.
Women, generally, aren't as interested in politics as men, even when given the opportunity to participate. It would be interesting to see the ratio of men:women who post on this board for comparison. I don't know about homosexuals. Some politicians maybe "closet", particularly those on the religious right (imagine the damage to their reputation), and therefore don't always register in statistics.

I think the 60% white population statistic is a bit bogus, at least in my country. More like 85% here.
generally speaking, women have recieved far greater discouragement to enter politics. Feminism within state affairs is still feeling the effects from the mysoginist status quo from the early part of the last century. Of course women will feel alienated and ultimately railroaded away from a career path that men have dominated for so long.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:33 pm
Dean

White, heterosexual men are not a majority, though they have power - and even if they were, the white men amongst them only constitute a minority amongst the whole population, and then the heterosexuality makes them an even smaller percentage -

example:
assume 49% men out of a 60% white population with 5% homosexual or bi (generously in your favor)

= .49*.6*.95 = ~28%, being extremely generous to your argument.

This is a clear minority.
Women, generally, aren't as interested in politics as men, even when given the opportunity to participate. It would be interesting to see the ratio of men:women who post on this board for comparison. I don't know about homosexuals. Some politicians maybe "closet", particularly those on the religious right (imagine the damage to their reputation), and therefore don't always register in statistics.

I think the 60% white population statistic is a bit bogus, at least in my country. More like 85% here.
Right - and it must be because they are women, and not because we live in a society which has been historically patriarchal?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:33 pm
Women, generally, aren't as interested in politics as men
Do you have any evidence at all for that?

[Tungsten]

Anecdotal evidence. As I asked for, let's see a ratio of men:women posters on this board and then we'll know for sure.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 05:56 pm
Anecdotal evidence. As I asked for, let's see a ratio of men:women posters on this board and then we'll know for sure.
-traditionally, women don't use the internet as much as men. This has only recently been changing.
-women being present on this board in no way suggests a correlational relation to women's interests in politics, for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that this board doesn't represent a sample of our population.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 05:56 pm
Anecdotal evidence. As I asked for, let's see a ratio of men:women posters on this board and then we'll know for sure.
And what would that prove? I reckon there are more men here, but I have been on political boards with more women and of course in the various political groups I am involved in, there are often more women than men

[Ultra-Violence]

pusher robot and Capitilist Lawyer Need to fucking get a reality check HOW THE FUCK DOES GANG AND VIOLENCE CUASE POVERTY! tell me please you stupid fucks come to my neighbor hood and see in what fucking toilet i have to live in and noe because i chose to ive here its becuase i was unlucky enugh to be born here you motherfuckers seriuosly you guys talk alot of shit and i bet none of you fucks has seen this shit first hand go to 51st and broadway and talk your shit i dare you fucks BLACK KILLING BLACK BROWN KILLING BROWN. Gangs are just acting like white people acting like you you gave them the guns you gave them the drugs yu put them thier and then you go o look how their acting omg thier putting themsleves down FUCK YOU *****! i wish i knew were you lived so you can experince soe fucking gangs and violence first hand you sacks of shit

[pusher robot]

HOW THE FUCK DOES GANG AND VIOLENCE CUASE POVERTY!

Because, my dear shithead, decent people surrounded by violence MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.

You know what makes a city great? People. You know what people hate? Crime. When crime goes up, people leave, and the city starts in a death spiral. They only way to revive them is to do something drastic to cut crime. Granted, most cities manage to survive because the gang violence is constricted to a certain zone - a zone that decent people avoid if at all possible, hence one that has no commerce and no attractions. Just a whole lot of gangbanging shitheads.


i bet none of you fucks has seen this shit first hand go to 51st and broadway and talk your shit i dare you fucks

Spare me your sanctimony. I've lived in the city for years and I used to work in the criminal justice system. I can also read the newspaper. I haven't been repeatedly victimized because you know what? I, like all other sensible people, STAY THE FUCK OUT of those areas, and that's why they've gone to shit.


LACK KILLING BLACK BROWN KILLING BROWN.
But I thought it's all whitey's fault?


FUCK YOU *****! i wish i knew were you lived so you can experince soe fucking gangs and violence first hand you sacks of shit
No, fuck you. You are obviously part of the problem and we can only hope that you end up in prison or dead sooner rather than later, so that cooperative, anti-violence people like myself can get along with our business of progressing the human race.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 09, 2007 11:57 pm

HOW THE FUCK DOES GANG AND VIOLENCE CUASE POVERTY!

Because, my dear shithead, decent people surrounded by violence MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.


so are you insinuating that if one can't afford to 'move to the suburbs' they are disqualified from 'being decent'?

Reactionary chauvinism never ceases to astonish me.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+November 09, 2007 11:59 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ November 09, 2007 11:59 pm)
pusher [email protected] 09, 2007 11:57 pm

HOW THE FUCK DOES GANG AND VIOLENCE CUASE POVERTY!

Because, my dear shithead, decent people surrounded by violence MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.


so are you insinuating that if one can't afford to 'move to the suburbs' they are disqualified from 'being decent'?

Reactionary chauvinism never ceases to astonish me. [/b]
It is also a completely bizzarre way of looking at things. Given gang members, even at the worst of times, will always only account for a minority anyway, it is pretty clear that there still are a lot of decent people in these areas. Indeed I have met no shortage myself.

Given there are still all these decent people in the area by Pusher Robot's logic there should still be plenty of commerce and the areas should not be poor. Hardly.

To the best of my knowledge, the overwhelming concensus in sociology is that poverty causes crime, not the other way round. Granted, once the crime levels rise an area will get caught in the poverty trap and a the whole phenomena of a vicious cycle comes out to play, but it is pretty much beyond doubt that gangs start to form when there is widescale deprivation. Indeed I do not know of an urban environment where it does not happen to one extent or another regardless of culture.

I do wonder what has gotten into Pusher Robot this week. He used to like to sit on his high and mighty throne, tellign us how he was about freedom and we would take it away. Now he is wanting caning for non violent crimes, showing utter contempt for anyone without the wealth he has and making what I can only call outrageously racist remarks to Ultra-Violence here.

[synthesis]

But I thought it's all whitey's fault?

A percentage of people will always do what it takes to "succeed" under the conditions given to them. If "success" requires ruthlessness and disregard for human life then those who possess those traits will rise to the "top" and become the most visible examples of what these conditions produce.


You are obviously part of the problem and we can only hope that you end up in prison or dead sooner rather than later

I think you should take a step back and re-evaluate what you are saying, my friend.

[synthesis]

...the overwhelming consensus in sociology is that poverty causes crime.

Because sociology can sometimes be more philosophical than scientific. A more complete analysis of crime always factors in the degree to which the perpetrator believes they can get away with the crime.

And in communities where the people who arrest criminals are (rightly) perceived as servants of an oppressive and unjust system, people can get away with a lot more crime.

[Raisa]

mysogyny of minorities is a product of white supremacy once again.

If a whole race of people was opressed economically for hundreds of years, people get into money fights expecially if the have no class consciousness.
Women used to rely on men. thats what we are still taught to do.
Wow.
PEOPLE are also taught to aspire to be like the upper echelons of their society.
so subcontiously...
"the white woman can count on her man! why cant i count on you?!"
"cause sometimes thats how it is, ma..one day Ima get us a nice big house...."
" Man Johnnie, thats what you always say! Well I NEVER seen a damn thing from you....this fucking baby is getting too big for his clothes and this that and the other thing and youre such a fucking asshole'
" you know you aint shit either, you aint shit like youy used to be, baggy ole pussy crazy gut hanging out of your clothes"
"you know what, nigga...! YOU AINT SHIT!"
"no you aint shit....!"
"you aint gotta tell me twice...GET THE FUCK OUT!"

And our man here johnnie asks himself sucontiously before IT turns into action "the white mans woman LOOOVES him cause hes got money but my woman always askes me where is my shit at. you dont see her raising her voice in his face and acting stupid..she just loooves him smells good for him, has her hair done nice smiles, laughs, spends time with him and makes him feel like a man. thats what i need, a woman who can just make me feel good and love me for me......

so he goes out two days later after a few months or years of "nigga you aint shit" and messes with some little 17 year old girl whos happy to have an older man all up on her and buying her things...that really aint shit but they are to her, like dinners movies clothes.
and his babys mother still aint seen a damn dollar or his silly face.
His parents were husband and wife, they probably had the same arugements in the back of his head but by the time our johnnie was old enough he didnt wait till marriage cause the whole economic mental gates were almost closed in his mind enough to say "dont want a wife"...really meaning "i cant do it"
but he did have a babys mother and fiance and that apparently isnt working out.
Now when his kid gets older and it is 2007..and that young man is 22 shit done went all crazy in the world and all we are all doing is openly coveting the white mans life so bad......that we wont even have a relationship....

Cause that nigga aint shit , and that ***** and nothing but a fucking *****...

It really does go both ways.

"Fuck you nigga, I can do bad by my damn self"

"Well fuck you too *****...suck my dick!"


Class relations reflects in human relationships.

" Nigga pleeeease.....love dont pay one god damn bill...."

[Forward Union]

I really have no idea what you just said. :blink:

Anyway a majoirty of race crimes in the UK are directed against white people, apparently. I am highly skeptical of that, but even if it were true, it ignores the fact that a lot of racism in society is actually legal. Look at the statistical pay-gaps, housing standards etc.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5046/rev1dk5.gif

[Knight of Cydonia]

Originally posted by pusher robot
MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.
what if their extremely poor and don't have a money to get the fuck out that damn place? bourguise shit like you won't helping them to get out of there either?
you didn't think think about that don't you?! those people who can't move out from a damn place like that is actually want to get the hell out of there, but what else they can do?they don't have enough money, even for their daily meal, they live in poverty.have you ever fucking realize or think about that?!!

[Dr Mindbender]

you have to understand, pusher robot's equation is

decent = affluent + compliant

and fuck everyone else.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Maya+November 10, 2007 01:38 pm--> (Maya @ November 10, 2007 01:38 pm)
pusher robot
MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.
what if their extremely poor and don't have a money to get the fuck out that damn place? bourguise shit like you won't helping them to get out of there either?
you didn't think think about that don't you?! those people who can't move out from a damn place like that is actually want to get the hell out of there, but what else they can do?they don't have enough money, even for their daily meal, they live in poverty.have you ever fucking realize or think about that?!! [/b]

what if their extremely poor and don't have a money to get the fuck out that damn place? bourguise shit like you won't helping them to get out of there either?

Then it ought to be in their own self-interest to to everything possible to see that crime and gang activity is ended. They ought to fully support police efforts to crack down on gang activity and tolerance of violence.

Strangely, that is often not the case. Many do not help and will even undermine efforts to patrol their own neighborhoods, and make law enforcement as difficult as possible. They turn a blind eye to gang activity and make no effort to control their children. Those that behave like this are not decent people.



decent = affluent + compliant

No. Decent = liberal + civil.

[synthesis]

I think it does have to be understood that racial violence against the majority will skew statistics.

A person who has resigned him or herself to a life of crime will always see white people as a better target, both because white people are perceived to be wealthier and because that wealth will give the victim a psychological reason to live, meaning there is less risk involved for the criminal.

Is this "racially motivated"? Technically, yes, but it is not the domain of Communists to denounce these activities, as our rightful focus is on the assault of the oppressed by the oppressor.

[synthesis]

Then it ought to be in their own self-interest to to everything possible to see that crime and gang activity is ended. They ought to fully support police efforts to crack down on gang activity and tolerance of violence.

Strangely, that is often not the case. Many do not help and will even undermine efforts to patrol their own neighborhoods, and make law enforcement as difficult as possible. They turn a blind eye to gang activity and make no effort to control their children. Those that behave like this are not decent people.

Perhaps you should attempt to come to a better understanding of how people in the ghetto perceive the police before you condemn their response to police activity.

Ask yourself if you would accept a justice system that considers you guilty until proven innocent. If you deny that our system does this, perhaps you should question whether or not the level of exposure you've had to these environments gives you the right to speak on what these people need.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher robot+--> (pusher robot)
Then it ought to be in their own self-interest to to everything possible to see that crime and gang activity is ended. They ought to fully support police efforts to crack down on gang activity and tolerance of violence.[/b]
Why should they support a police that are compliant with the status quo which put them in the position they are in? I dont believe that the us police are sincere about ending gangsterism for 2 reasons- firstly, it is effective at drawing away proletarian attention from the activities of the establishment class, and secondly without the gang culture there would be no more role for the police. In much the same vein there wouldnt be any work for postmen if everyone stopped sending letters.
Going back to my first point, before you give me your BS about individual responsibility, the US authorities are renowned for their institutionalised racism.


pusher robot


No. Decent = liberal + civil.
So do you want to withdraw your original statement that 'decent' people always move away from run down areas?

the word 'civil' is open to interpretation. The priveleged classes engage in activities that they are quick enough to reprimand the rest of us for and brand us 'uncivil', yet strangely i never see anyone chastise them for it.

EDIT: by 'liberal' i sincerely hope you don't mean in the political sense.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 11, 2007 08:48 pm
Then it ought to be in their own self-interest to to everything possible to see that crime and gang activity is ended. They ought to fully support police efforts to crack down on gang activity and tolerance of violence.

Strangely, that is often not the case. Many do not help and will even undermine efforts to patrol their own neighborhoods, and make law enforcement as difficult as possible. They turn a blind eye to gang activity and make no effort to control their children. Those that behave like this are not decent people.

Everything is always so simple when you can safely apply your misanthropic view of the world from a position of middle class comfort, isn't it?

Why do you think people ren't very keen tonhelp the police? Very often the police behave in a manner not very difficult from the gangs, and even at the best of times, police ideas of fighting gangs involves racial profiling and intrusion into the lives of people who have nothing to do with gang culture. People are not going to put up with that for long.

At any rate it naive and simplistic to think that simply having police try and crack down on gangs will do anything. They flooded Johannasberg with police in response to the gang culture and I don't think anyone is noticing much of a down turn. Indeed the police behave more like an aggravating factor sometimes.

The plain fact is that where there is poverty and deprivation there is crime. You can complain about it, you cans ay it shouldn't be the case. You can boire us all silly with sermons about how people should be more "decent", but none of that will change the plain fact that regardless of culture, race, nationality or whatever else where you see deprivation, you see crime and gangs, particularly in urban settings.

Tackling that might see some results. Middle class smugness and racism certainly won't.

[pusher robot]

Why do you think people ren't very keen tonhelp the police? Very often the police behave in a manner not very difficult from the gangs, and even at the best of times, police ideas of fighting gangs involves racial profiling and intrusion into the lives of people who have nothing to do with gang culture. People are not going to put up with that for long.

I am willing to accept that people might find police activity intrusive an unwanted. But sometimes, you have to be willing to prioritize. You have to be willing to suffer a little to cure the disease. Otherwise, you end up worse off than you were before.

You know, I might even accept your argument, if the police were being stonewalled in favor of local, direct action against violence. But that is not what we see. Instead we see scapegoating, blame-shifting, and almost complete acceptance of the inevitability - or even the rectitude! - of gang activity. So they are not willing to address this problem themselves, and they are not willing to tolerate police activity. This demonstrates to me that the community itself has embraced crime and gang violence. I have no problem condemning that stance.


If you deny that our system does this, perhaps you should question whether or not the level of exposure you've had to these environments gives you the right to speak on what these people need.

As someone who used to work in those very courts, I do deny it. I worked in domestic violence court. You know what I saw? I saw perp after perp - usually eight to ten a day - have his or her case dismissed because the victim - the only witness - was too frightened or to cowardly to show up to court. I saw gangs show up and sit in the courtroom, to initimidate witnesses into leaving. I sat and listened to victims flat-out tell me they would never tell the truth in that courtroom because they loved the man who beat them silly and don't want anything to happen to him. All of those cases were disimissed, all of them got off scot-free. So why don't you spare me the sanctimony?

[synthesis]

As someone who used to work in those very courts, I do deny it. I worked in domestic violence court. You know what I saw? I saw perp after perp - usually eight to ten a day - have his or her case dismissed because the victim - the only witness - was too frightened or to cowardly to show up to court. I saw gangs show up and sit in the courtroom, to initimidate witnesses into leaving. I sat and listened to victims flat-out tell me they would never tell the truth in that courtroom because they loved the man who beat them silly and don't want anything to happen to him. All of those cases were disimissed, all of them got off scot-free. So why don't you spare me the sanctimony?

After a quote such as this, I think it is quite interesting that you would place the mantle of sanctimony on me. I can find no purpose to this passage aside from your stubborn, ignorant denial of the objective conditions that create freedom for criminals to operate with impunity. You must understand that when the police are perceived to be a foreign organization with interests inimical to those they are supposed to protect, "order" will be maintained in one way or another, even if it is the "order" of street gangs and hustlers. Until you are willing discard your ideological biases for a scientific analysis of the situation, I think we are done.

[Ultra-Violence]

Because, my dear shithead, decent people surrounded by violence MOVE THE FUCK OUT. They move to the suburbs, or they move to another city. Or maybe they move to another country altogether.



O wow i never looked at it that way.*speaks to GF* Oh great babe lets just move out of the gheto itll be great :angry: BULL FUCKING SHIT! WHITE PEOPLE MOVE TO THE SUBURBS! not fucking us poor people like i said before you think i like living here i dont have the finicnail means to get out so im stuck here i try and i try i get FUCKING NOWWHERE!



You know what makes a city great? People. You know what people hate? Crime. When crime goes up, people leave, and the city starts in a death spiral. They only way to revive them is to do something drastic to cut crime. Granted, most cities manage to survive because the gang violence is constricted to a certain zone - a zone that decent people avoid if at all possible, hence one that has no commerce and no attractions. Just a whole lot of gangbanging shitheads.


Your right people hate crime it sucks ass but the white people dont wana live with us period its called fucking whiteflite you sack of shit Any person of color moves into your goddam neighborhoood you all pack up and move some were whiter tell me something i dont know you fuck


Spare me your sanctimony. I've lived in the city for years and I used to work in the criminal justice system. I can also read the newspaper. I haven't been repeatedly victimized because you know what? I, like all other sensible people, STAY THE FUCK OUT of those areas, and that's why they've gone to shit.

AND YOU KNOW WHY YOU FUCK BECUASE YOU FCKING HAVE THE OPURTUNITY TOO SHITHEAD I DONT AND SO DO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HERE! YOU FUCKER WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT! you go home turn on your t.v and get to say oh how barbaric.



But I thought it's all whitey's fault?





Yes becuase one thier acting like whitey 2.Whitey knows whats going on 3. they chose to do nothing about it



No, fuck you. You are obviously part of the problem and we can only hope that you end up in prison or dead sooner rather than later, so that cooperative, anti-violence people like myself can get along with our business of progressing the human race.



If i end up in prison i hope i at least a cuop-le of fucks like you so another cuople of fucks can turn on the t.v and go oh how sad and comence eating their dinner

[Knight of Cydonia]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 12, 2007 03:48 am
They ought to fully support police efforts to crack down on gang activity and tolerance of violence.



ahaha...do you really think that those police pigs would listen the word of the poor? police only hear the word of the "green",get the point? <_<

[pusher robot]

not fucking us poor people like i said before you think i like living here i dont have the finicnail means to get out so im stuck here i try and i try i get FUCKING NOWWHERE&#33;

And you never will because you live in a place that is dysfunctional. And why is it dysfunctional? Because of people like you. People like you who are always waiting for someone else to solve their problems, always ready to find someone else to blame for their own lack of motivation. What financial means do you lack? The price of a bus ticket? The fact is that there is plenty of affordable housing NOT located in the inner city - you just have to be willing to make the effort to leave your current life behind, and, of course, work for a living.


white people dont wana live with us period its called fucking whiteflite you sack of shit Any person of color moves into your goddam neighborhoood you all pack up and move some were whiter tell me something i dont know you fuck

Imagine that&#33; People don&#39;t like neighbors like yourself who believe they are racist and want to do violence against them&#33; Again, YOU are the problem. YOU. You choose to be antagonistic and then wonder why people shun you?


AND YOU KNOW WHY YOU FUCK BECUASE YOU FCKING HAVE THE OPURTUNITY TOO SHITHEAD I DONT AND SO DO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HERE&#33; YOU FUCKER WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT&#33;

No, you choose to live with it and then blame everybody else for your choice. Why not make the choice to get your GED?


Until you are willing discard your ideological biases for a scientific analysis of the situation, I think we are done.

I&#39;m always willing to discuss things scientifically. I&#39;m not willing to listen to a lot of post hoc ergo propter hoc speculation or statements of fact that are obviously not true. My anecdote is to demonstrate that I actually do have some idea of what goes on in the courtroom, so I&#39;m keen to the fact that this nonsense about the poor folk being "guilty until proven innocent" is a load of crap, no matter how ideologically inconvenient that might be for you.


You must understand that when the police are perceived to be a foreign organization with interests inimical to those they are supposed to protect, "order" will be maintained in one way or another, even if it is the "order" of street gangs and hustlers.

You must understand that I don&#39;t dispute this, I simply point out this line of thinking is - at least in the U.S. - completely stupid and counterproductive. "Golly gee, let&#39;s have a social order that results in my most common cause of death to be murder by my peers, and the total destruction of my neighborhood, and the complete cessation of economic activity, rather than suffer the occasional intrusion of law enforcement&#33;" It&#39;s the equivalent of chopping off your feet because you&#39;re tired of stubbing your toe. Even if you&#39;re really, really, tired of stubbing your toe, it&#39;s still a stupid thing to do.

[Ultra-Violence]

And you never will because you live in a place that is dysfunctional. And why is it dysfunctional? Because of people like you. People like you who are always waiting for someone else to solve their problems, always ready to find someone else to blame for their own lack of motivation. What financial means do you lack? The price of a bus ticket? The fact is that there is plenty of affordable housing NOT located in the inner city - you just have to be willing to make the effort to leave your current life behind, and, of course, work for a living.

Oh thanx for the info bud FUCK YOU&#33; I WORK I GOT TO SCHOOL AFTER WORK AND WHENEVER I HAVE FUCKING FREE TIME I TRY TO BETTER MY COMMUNITY&#33; so dont talk to me about motivattion you sack of shit im motivated to better my people and my class you sack of shit and your wrtie their is affordable living outside of the city but theirs no fucking jobs and im not asking for you to soleve my fucking problems cuase im trying to do em myself Just dont go *****in when colored people move up you fucker.



Imagine that&#33; People don&#39;t like neighbors like yourself who believe they are racist and want to do violence against them&#33; Again, YOU are the problem. YOU. You choose to be antagonistic and then wonder why people shun you?


BECUASE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ARE RACIST AND WONT FUCKING ADMIT IT&#33; GET IT IN YOU THICK SKULL&#33; for example i went to Marie calanders to buy some pie for my Grandmas birthday i walk in thier and All the white people mutter to them selves look at me stare me down they didint want me thier plane and simple i dint speak to any one make any sudden moves or AGITATE like you say. THIS COUNTRY WAS FUNDED BY WHITE PEOPLE FOR WHITE PEOPLE AND THE BLACK PEOPLE THE NATVIE AMERICAS AND INDEGINOUS PEOPLE ARE THE BURDEN BEARES OF YOUR FUCKING GREAT SOCAIETY&#33; just admit it


No, you choose to live with it and then blame everybody else for your choice. Why not make the choice to get your GED?

^^^^^
Typicla white AMERIKKKAN behavior here

No i made the chioce to graduate you fuck from highschool

[pusher robot]

Oh thanx for the info bud FUCK YOU&#33; I WORK I GOT TO SCHOOL AFTER WORK AND WHENEVER I HAVE FUCKING FREE TIME I TRY TO BETTER MY COMMUNITY&#33;

So you use your free time to try to improve your community. Good for you, I mean that. Just don&#39;t feed me your BS that you CAN&#39;T GET OUT&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;11 You are choosing to stay. When have I ever expressed any opposition to black people "moving up?" To the contrary, I encourage them all to kick the troublemakers in the nuts and start joining the rest of civil society.


BECUASE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ARE RACIST AND WONT FUCKING ADMIT IT&#33; GET IT IN YOU THICK SKULL&#33;

Please. Not every injustice and inconvenience is due to racism.



THIS COUNTRY WAS FUNDED BY WHITE PEOPLE FOR WHITE PEOPLE AND THE BLACK PEOPLE THE NATVIE AMERICAS AND INDEGINOUS PEOPLE ARE THE BURDEN BEARES OF YOUR FUCKING GREAT SOCAIETY&#33; just admit it

No, that&#39;s ridiculous. What is your obsession with getting people to "admit" things? What are you, the Grand Inquisitor? How would any admission by anybody materially affect your life?



Typicla white AMERIKKKAN behavior here

No i made the chioce to graduate you fuck from highschool

My mistake, your writing style had me convinced otherwise.

[Ultra-Violence]

So you use your free time to try to improve your community. Good for you, I mean that. Just don&#39;t feed me your BS that you CAN&#39;T GET OUT&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;11 You are choosing to stay. When have I ever expressed any opposition to black people "moving up?" To the contrary, I encourage them all to kick the troublemakers in the nuts and start joining the rest of civil society.

I wasnt just talking about black people moving up im talking about all Colored people moving up whenever we say something about our situation or Try to tell white amreica to wake up you guys always try to shut us up



Please. Not every injustice and inconvenience is due to racism

You Right its just not racism its classism,sexism,homophobia,ageism etc...






No, that&#39;s ridiculous. What is your obsession with getting people to "admit" things? What are you, the Grand Inquisitor? How would any admission by anybody materially affect your life?


im not obsesed with getting people to admit shit but its true when i go somewhere thats predominatly white i get stares shit talking behind m back etc... evn in school thes is what the white kids will say *so and so only got into to this school because hes brown and affirmative action* etc.... You ask those same kids if thier racist theyll denie it and say *OH god know im not a racist my best freind is a mexican huh pedro*

You white people have the privialge f not knowing what it feels like to be discriminated against
and you never listen to us period.



My mistake, your writing style had me convinced otherwise

srry for the inconvinience but you would be surpreised that i got in A&#39; in english :P

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Of course the crime in the inner city is the fault of black people. Remember when they rallied and insisted that the industrialists remove their factories from the cities and build them overseas?

[synthesis]

I&#39;m not willing to listen to a lot of post hoc ergo propter hoc speculation or statements of fact that are obviously not true.

Such as?


I&#39;m keen to the fact that this nonsense about the poor folk being "guilty until proven innocent" is a load of crap, no matter how ideologically inconvenient that might be for you.

I&#39;m not talking about poor people, I&#39;m talking about ethnic minorities. Again, if you deny that police generally presume people who look a certain way and dress a certain way to be criminals then I would remind you that your experience in the courtroom has no bearing on your experience outside of it.


You must understand that I don&#39;t dispute this, I simply point out this line of thinking is - at least in the U.S. - completely stupid and counterproductive.

The values that made sense to you growing up may not be as valid if you have become accustomed to death, crime, and hunger as a fact of life and conduct yourself based on the observation that most people like you will die before they are 25.


My anecdote is to demonstrate that I actually do have some idea of what goes on in the courtroom,

Precisely the problem. Your experience is limited to that which happens in the court; it is entirely incomplete unless you know "what goes on" outside the court.

[Robert]

As one of the resident capitalists here, I want to concede the left&#39;s point to this extent. If you are growing up as a young man in a crime-infested, gang-controlled ghetto, you will cooperate with the thugs and even help them now and then, maybe just serving as a lookout or a courier, but you&#39;ll help to stay accepted in the tribe or to win the approval of your peers if nothing else. I don&#39;t blame that inevitability on the police or their racism, if that&#39;s what&#39;s implied.