the biggest problem with most guerrilla groups?

[R_P_A_S]

I am a believer of an armed struggle. a revolution.. Of course thats not the only way I think the working class can bring about change. But it is the most realistic one for me.

The text book or the ideal scenario is imagined as a huge revolt against the ruling class. A revolt in which regular people unite with other regular people, ultimately become fed up and are turn to fight. fight along side more regular people and together, different factions of the working class start taking more and more control of their lives and work places. etc. etc. Like Marx said it's a revolution on like others. because it be a revolution of the majority against a minority, the bourgeoisie

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's my observation that most of the worlds leftist guerrilla groups, as much as they preach marxism, or leninism and claim their aims are to bring about a socialist or communist revolution. they still manage to alienate themselves from the average working class men and women. their efforts drag on for years and years. so long sometimes that they get to the point where they lose complete touch with the working class. are force to fight other battles, slowly dragging any progress and at times causing them to abandon their original cause and ideology.
and eventually abandoning the working class and the working class by now is also on their own battles with debt and other endeavors.

That's why I can't picture these long time guerrilla groups like the FARC to be effective any more. I can't picture the colombian working class taking their side next year, or in 5 years.

I can't picture my parents, and your family or friends rallying behind OUR long time local guerrilla group and let them lead us towards a fight against the capitalist...

"After all for the last 10 to 20 years all we hear about this guerrilla groups on the news and at school is how they kill people and are terrorist organizations.. "

average working class person wouldn't side with "those crazy people"

opinions??

[R_P_A_S]

and even SOMETIMES to the point where it creates 3 classes. if you want to call them classes.

the capitalist

the proletariat

and the guerrilla fighter. these particular guerrilla grows tired of capitalism obviously. but also fed up with the "ignorance" of the working class. and how it allows the capitalist influence to consume them.

the proletariat at times scare and lacking social conscious, may side with the capitalist. as opposed of the guerrilla. leading for the guerrilla to turn on the average working class. just because they don't "see things the way the guerrilla" does.

perfect examples of these kind of actions is the Shining Path of Peru.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

The problem is, you need to be a step ahead of the working class, helping to pull them in the right direction. Guerrilla groups tend to be about a light year in front of the working class (or poor farmers, if you're a Maoist).

That's exactly the reason why, as you have noticed, the working class tend to think guerrilla groups are crazy.

Look what Lenin did at the Russian revolution, the Bolsheviks only brought about the final insurrection when the working class had already accepted the Russian state was in terminal decline.

[R_P_A_S]

sometimes i feel that leftist aims and ideology has been sitting on the burner for so long now. what? 150 some years? and unfortunately some people might feel or just believe that it has lost its relevancy. IM NOT saying this is true or thats how I feel. but I don't blame others if they do. specially our class enemies. since they use it to attack us and slander communism.

like these guerrilla groups. I use the FARC as a prime example because they have been at it for a long time. and it's a fight between the FARC and the Conservative-Bourgoisie Government of Colombia thats on going. NOT a fight between the working class of Colombia led by the FARC against the Conservative-Bourgoisie Government of Colombia.

[dannthraxxx]

i agree with you completely. i think our ideas of revolution are old and tried. the internet really is an amazing communication device and a miracle. because through the internet we can network thousands or millions of workers. the only problem is, not all workers bother getting on the internet or reading. most people feel so alienated and small that they think they cant do anything, so they give up. this is where the revolution begins. we must inform them. we have to inform the people of everywhere what's going on and how things could be.


you just have to use the right mediums of communication to reach them...



it's tiresome and sometimes i feel hopeless, it's like, why cant people just listen?


i think a major problem is, most people only preach anarchy/communism/revolution on the internet. then while they're at work or school or play, they follow along with everyone else and just further perpetuate the eternal lie, it's up to us to stop the shit and in my opinion, we must do it soon.

[Revulero]

What your saying is true. FARC doesnt lead the workers anymore like it use to. What it does now is run cocaine trade so it could keep its organization alive, its now just another guerilla group that has forgotten its ideology.

Even the new guerilla groups who claim to be leftist like the EPR in Mexico havent shown support for the working class, all it does is just destroy oil reserves making life for the workers there more difficult.

[R_P_A_S]

i believe an armed working class ready for battle IS essential. the methods of guerrilla warfare i still think are useful and relevant. but perhaps should be put in practice when the conditions present themselves. in a country as vast like Mexico its more difficult for the guerrilla to create these conditions. SPECIALLY in this day of age, in which the media is far more advance, strong and opposed to the working class and reaches more people with is lies than any guerrilla can with attacks.

the means of communication are essential for a successful start in informing the people of the conditions we live in. and put them up against the ruling class.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 12:51 pm

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's my observation that most of the worlds leftist guerrilla groups, as much as they preach marxism, or leninism and claim their aims are to bring about a socialist or communist revolution. they still manage to alienate themselves from the average working class men and women. their efforts drag on for years and years. so long sometimes that they get to the point where they lose complete touch with the working class. are force to fight other battles, slowly dragging any progress and at times causing them to abandon their original cause and ideology.
and eventually abandoning the working class and the working class by now is also on their own battles with debt and other endeavors.

That's why I can't picture these long time guerrilla groups like the FARC to be effective any more. I can't picture the colombian working class taking their side next year, or in 5 years.

I can't picture my parents, and your family or friends rallying behind OUR long time local guerrilla group and let them lead us towards a fight against the capitalist...

"After all for the last 10 to 20 years all we hear about this guerrilla groups on the news and at school is how they kill people and are terrorist organizations.. "

average working class person wouldn't side with "those crazy people"

opinions??

I, for one, do not believe that guerrilla groups, know matter how much rhetoric they recite, are Marxists. Could they be a proponent for revolution? It's quite possible, especially in backwards countries. Yet, this is not how Marx envisioned a proletariat revolution.

Like you said, this will be a revolution like no other, and will not be like the revolutions of the preceding revolutions, and when i say that, i mean the bourgeoisie revolutions.

Here's what Engels has to say about this substitutionism, specifically of the Blanquists, in The Program of the Blanquist Fugitives from the Paris Commune. He criticized Blanqui for "believing that a small and well organized minority, who would attempt a political stroke of force at the opportune moment, could carry the mass of the people with them by a few successes at the start and thus make a victorious revolution."

However, if a guerrilla group is more like the EZLN, an armed body of the autonomous municipalities and these municipalities are the summation of worker's and commune(neighborhood)councils, then i would support it. But most guerrilla groups, aren't structured as so.

[spartan]

I think that Guerrilla groups are pretty useless at this point in time in the bigger picture for the left which of course is unfortunate as there are some brave leftists in third wold countries fighting brutal dictatorships right now.

Having said that what Guerrilla groups practice, namely Guerrilla warfare, is very useful to us especially when the revolution begins.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 06:11 am
What your saying is true. FARC doesnt lead the workers anymore like it use to. What it does now is run cocaine trade so it could keep its organization alive, its now just another guerilla group that has forgotten its ideology.

Even the new guerilla groups who claim to be leftist like the EPR in Mexico havent shown support for the working class, all it does is just destroy oil reserves making life for the workers there more difficult.
First of all, let me say that I don't think guerrilla is a viable option in most of the world, and certainly not in Colombia. The FARC aren't exception - their strategy is flawed, and leads to a stalemate that is comfortable for the Colombian State.

That said - the bourgeois slander about FARC running cocaine trade shoudn't be repeated. This is not what is wrong with the FARC, so criticising them for something that isn't real only obscures the real problems with their organisation, and makes true criticism that much more difficult.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:49 pm
I think that Guerrilla groups are pretty useless at this point in time in the bigger picture for the left which of course is unfortunate as there are some brave leftists in third wold countries fighting brutal dictatorships right now.

Having said that what Guerrilla groups practice, namely Guerrilla warfare, is very useful to us especially when the revolution begins.
So guerrilla is a good thing as long as you don't put it into practice, in which case it is useless? :huh:

Luís Henrique

[R_P_A_S]

i think in guerrilla would be far more effective in these type of scenario.

I pretty good class conscious worker that is on strike or protesting. playing their part. and in conjunction a guerrilla fighting the same war but with guns and this way over whelm the bourgeoisie state.

[spartan]

Say R_P_A_S have you ever read Che Guevara's Guerrilla Warfare?

If you have not read it then i highly recommend it to you as it goes over alot of scenarios and things which you have brought up in relation to Guerrilla warfare.

[Lenin II]

As far as guerrilla groups being useless, I must disagree. I think the revolutions in various countries, particularly Cuba, may speak to that end. A revolution is made directly by a minority. The success of a revolution is possible, however, only where this minority finds more or less support, or at least friendly neutrality, on the part of the majority. A guerrilla group must always remember to conduct propaganda and propaganda of the deed amongst the people.

[spartan]

Lenin II:
As far as guerrilla groups being useless, I must disagree. I think the revolutions in various countries, particularly Cuba, may speak to that end.
I meant useless in the context of the first world where Capitalism is entrenched and has the support of the majority of people.

A revolution is made directly by a minority. The success of a revolution is possible, however, only where this minority finds more or less support, or at least friendly neutrality, on the part of the majority. A guerrilla group must always remember to conduct propaganda and propaganda of the deed amongst the people.
I am in agreement with you completly.

[TC]

The biggest problem with most guerrilla groups is that they don't have enough money, guns or people. accept the obvious answer first.

[Marsella]

The biggest problem with most guerrilla groups is that they don't have enough money, guns or people. accept the obvious answer first.

FARC has around 12,000 fighters, adequate amount of guns and rakes in a lot in the cocaine trade (either by selling or taxing). And still they haven't been able to overtake the country.

A lack of a revolutionary situation is the first reason why these groups fail.

[Comrade Rage]

I wouldn't broadly say that guerilla groups are failing, just in the West/global North/what have you.


Originally posted by TC
The biggest problem with most guerrilla groups is that they don't have enough money, guns or people. accept the obvious answer first.

You forgot the other 'p' word: Propaganda.

The Internet is the biggest opportunity for leftists to propagate propaganda, and it is an opportunity which we have yet to really cash in on. The only anti-capitalist groups really capturing even a fraction of the potential of the internet are rightist, such as the fundamentalists or fascists.

These are some things I think that revolutionary guerrilla groups can do to popularize themselves with the workers, or at least a distinct segment of the workers: Create video games Make good FPS games with distinct leftist sentiments about revolutionary guerrilla fighters.
Counter bad press So long as there's a revolutionary leftist movement out there, the corporate media will shit all over it. Leftists should create pirate AM radio stations to broadcast news, and post videos of they're group to YouTube.
Publicize State crimes against humanity Make sure that people know what the State is doing in their name--that will start to turn the people against the State.
Revamp your websites Use software like Flash (cough...available for free from any torrent site...cough) to make your website appear as dynamic as any business's or bourgeoisie party's. Make a good impression!

That's my 2-cents on this.