How would one make Communism work?

[Derek_Rubin]

A.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?

B.) Without corporations, or currency, what work would there to do? Farming? Might as well send us 500 years in the past right?

C.) How would we deal with lazy people who sit on their ass, instead of work?

D.) How could this work on an international scale? It seems like an idea that could only be used in small communes where everyone knows each other to work.

E.) From each person's ability to each person's need. What would be defined as something one needs? Me I could not live without my computer, and my guitars... but I don't need them to survive...

F.) How would this all be managed, and by whom?

Lenin's system answers B, D, and F. But even he knew he was not creating a communist state, he needed to transfer into some sort of state capitalism first, because Russia was still feudalist at the time of the revolution.

Anyway this is coming from someone who's currently reading the communist manifesto, and find it fascinating, but these questions are kind of unanswered for me so far.

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 03:37 pm
A.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?

B.) Without corporations, or currency, what work would there to do? Farming? Might as well send us 500 years in the past right?

C.) How would we deal with lazy people who sit on their ass, instead of work?

D.) How could this work on an international scale? It seems like an idea that could only be used in small communes where everyone knows each other to work.

E.) From each person's ability to each person's need. What would be defined as something one needs? Me I could not live without my computer, and my guitars... but I don't need them to survive...

F.) How would this all be managed, and by whom?

Lenin's system answers B, D, and F. But even he knew he was not creating a communist state, he needed to transfer into some sort of state capitalism first, because Russia was still feudalist at the time of the revolution.

Anyway this is coming from someone who's currently reading the communist manifesto, and find it fascinating, but these questions are kind of unanswered for me so far.
A) Getting rid of competition doesn't mean getting rid of new technology.
B) People still farm nowadays, with modern equipment, and there are more jobs than just farming.
C) I personally feel that the community shouldn't give them any support.
D) And each small commune communicates with one another, etc, etc.
E) Needs - food, water, sleep, etc. Just because you don't need your computer or guitars doesn't mean that they'll be taken away from you...unless they're the only ones in your community and you charge people to use them.
F) The people? Or, to some, a vanguard working for the advancement of the people.

Hope this helps.

[JazzRemington]

I would make communism work...with my fists. :angry:

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 03:37 pm
A.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?
Contrary to what you may think, communism won't be some horrible dictatorship in which everyone is forced to go "back to nature". It will be a cooperative and autonomous system where the corporate hegemony and false scarcity of capitalism will be done away with.

Currently the computer industry has competition, which results in things like the Radeon and ATI cards which both have different faults and advantages, now under communism we wouldn't have companies in competition - instead we would have people cooperating to improve not only the lot of humanity in general but themselves in specific. So ex-radeon and ex-ATI workers would start a project together and they would have the benefit of each others knowledge - meaning the results would share the advantages and have less of the faults.

The same goes for mp3 players and the like.


B.) Without corporations, or currency, what work would there to do? Farming? Might as well send us 500 years in the past right?

Laboratory work? Community guided manufacturing? I doubt there would be a need to return thousands of years into the past simply because we'd fired our bosses.


C.) How would we deal with lazy people who sit on their ass, instead of work?

Most people who are currently unemployed are not in this situation out of choice or laziness, instead it is all part of the "glory" of capitalism. Though some people would be genuinely lazy or otherwise unwilling to undertake positive and societally useful work would be able to expect no official legislation against them but pressure from their peers. Although some folk would simply choose not to do physical labour, and this is fine as even post revolution we will still want artists, musicians, authors and so on.


D.) How could this work on an international scale? It seems like an idea that could only be used in small communes where everyone knows each other to work.

Central authority would be dissolved, although communism would exist on an international scale it would not rely on a huge centralised agency, but instead on several autonomous communities working in tandem.


E.) From each person's ability to each person's need. What would be defined as something one needs? Me I could not live without my computer, and my guitars... but I don't need them to survive...

Well, the first priority would be food, then shelter - after that the possessions you desire will be provided wherever possible.


F.) How would this all be managed, and by whom?

This would be managed through community decision making amongst the workers themselves.


Lenin's system answers B, D, and F. But even he knew he was not creating a communist state, he needed to transfer into some sort of state capitalism first, because Russia was still feudalist at the time of the revolution.

Lenin's system failed for a number of reasons, many of which are detailed on this site in other forums.


Anyway this is coming from someone who's currently reading the communist manifesto, and find it fascinating, but these questions are kind of unanswered for me so far.

If you want to see contemporary theoretical ways of running a communist/leftist system I suggest you look into technocracy (google the Network of European Technocrats for one example).

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Derek_rubin+--> (Derek_rubin)A.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?[/b]
It because of 'corporate' activity that we dont have as 'great stuff' as we could have. The primary example that springs to my mind is cars. We all know that the oil industry is a multi-billion dollar industry right? We all know that cars are also a multi-billion industry, and that they are dependent on oil. Not only this, but we know that a major source of funding for political parties in office are the 'corporations'. So do you do if you run one of these corporations whenever a new transportation technology comes out that is dependent on a fuel other than oil? I'll let you do the 'math'.

Originally posted by Derek_rubin+--> (Derek_rubin)B.) Without corporations, or currency, what work would there to do? Farming? Might as well send us 500 years in the past right?[/b]
You are so far off the mark. Corporations are not the be all and end all of human accomplishment. It isnt the tycoons who provided the scientific savvy or creative flair for the moon landing, or the creation of the internet. It was the hard working scientists, all of whom members of the proletarian class. Also currency is an arbitrary concept designed to quantify our labour into divisible units, making it easier to partition between wages and profit. This is its primary function. I have yet to hear a convincing argument against a bartering system.

Originally posted by Derek_rubin

C.) How would we deal with lazy people who sit on their ass, instead of work?

What you mean like the present day beourgioise? <_<
It isnt a case of people being lazy, the present system is unable to allocate jobs that are appropriate to the traits, aspirations and interests of the individual concerned. Currently, this is why i subscribe to the technocratic vision of socialism.

Originally posted by Derek_rubin

D.) How could this work on an international scale? It seems like an idea that could only be used in small communes where everyone knows each other to work.

Firstly, it would have to work on a international scale. The experience of stalinism proves that it cannot survive in isolation. Secondly, i envisage it being implemented through a federal system, where each region has its specific sub governments in order to limit beureaucracy.

[email protected]

E.) From each person&#39;s ability to each person&#39;s need. What would be defined as something one needs? Me I could not live without my computer, and my guitars...
...and you wouldnt have to. The first thing you have to acknowledge, is that under beourgioise rule there is mass squandering and wastage. So under proletarian rule, as long as you contribute your share, there will be enough for every person who contributes a positive role (bar those with legitimate reason, the handicapped, elderly and so fourth) to have all their creature comforts, plus some.

Derek_rubin
How would this all be managed, and by whom?
A government owned by the working class.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 04:23 pm
I would make communism work...with my fists. :angry:
...and you wonder why we&#39;re losing support. :rolleyes:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+October 14, 2007 05:35 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ October 14, 2007 05:35 pm)
[email protected] 14, 2007 04:23 pm
I would make communism work...with my fists. :angry:
...and you wonder why we&#39;re losing support. :rolleyes: [/b]
I think he was taking the piss.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by NoXion+October 14, 2007 05:36 pm--> (NoXion @ October 14, 2007 05:36 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 14, 2007 05:35 pm

[email protected] 14, 2007 04:23 pm
I would make communism work...with my fists. :angry:
...and you wonder why we&#39;re losing support. :rolleyes:
I think he was taking the piss. [/b]
i know, i thought someone should give him a wrist slap to counter negative stereotyping.

[BobKKKindle$]

.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?

Other members have already suggested that profit is not the only possible for of innovation-motivation. I feel that Capitalism can actually harm innovation as an economic system based on profit.

Companies only try to innovate if they expect the new product to offer a profitable return on the original investment. As such, there are areas in which extended research and development is required but the necessary expertise and funding is non-existent because the product in question is not considered sufficiently profitable – a key example is the development of renewable energy technology which is necessary to ensure we are able to deal with pressing problems of environmental degradation such as global warming. However, because of the high capital-costs associated with this technology (in addition to the political influence of fossil-fuel companies) the current level of technological development is still insufficient – despite the fact that dealing with global warming is clearly a need that is essential to the interests of humanity as a whole.

[Ismail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14, 2007 10:37 am
A.) In Communism, without corporate competition, how would we get great stuff like Computers, and iPods?

B.) Without corporations, or currency, what work would there to do? Farming? Might as well send us 500 years in the past right?

C.) How would we deal with lazy people who sit on their ass, instead of work?

D.) How could this work on an international scale? It seems like an idea that could only be used in small communes where everyone knows each other to work.

E.) From each person&#39;s ability to each person&#39;s need. What would be defined as something one needs? Me I could not live without my computer, and my guitars... but I don&#39;t need them to survive...

F.) How would this all be managed, and by whom?

Lenin&#39;s system answers B, D, and F. But even he knew he was not creating a communist state, he needed to transfer into some sort of state capitalism first, because Russia was still feudalist at the time of the revolution.

Anyway this is coming from someone who&#39;s currently reading the communist manifesto, and find it fascinating, but these questions are kind of unanswered for me so far.
A. As others have pointed out, corporate competition =/= progress.

B. A majority of people do not work in corporations, you see. What about regular industries? Auto plants, textile factories, etc. Also, it should be noted that capitalism has allowed a Communist system to be possible. Capitalism, though clearly flawed and in need of being replaced, made people work together in the same factories, etc. This is why industrial progress went so quickly in the 1800&#39;s, whereas if the peasant system from feudalism was used, farmers would of simply wandered around, offering to sell their produce to people, as it would be with the worker and his creations, and people would of not been in the same building working together on such a scale as has been seen in capitalism.

C. Simply, we tell them to work. If they don&#39;t, they get no support. Laziness is caused mainly by three things:

1. Not actually needing to work in any really beneficial form (Eg. "Hello, I am a CEO and my &#39;work&#39; consists of attending some board meetings every week or so where not much is accomplished, but I get paid well anyway so why do any actual work? I got it made&#33;")
2. Hopelessness (Eg. "Well, what&#39;s the point of working if I am either going to remain poor or stupid? I&#39;ll never be able to amount to anything&#33;")
3. Old age and feeling of "not being here much longer", but at this point we can&#39;t really expect old people to be doing much work anyway (Eg. "ARTHRITIS MOTHERFUCKER")

D. As others have pointed out.

(Same with E and so on)

[hajduk]

Yugoslavia is the best example of how should communism or socialism work

A)shut down nationalism,but give people little space to call himself like they whant

B)screw up capitalist in sort of to take credits from one and then when you should back credit told them that other capitalist take that money becouse he say to you that capitalist from who you take a credit own fawer to him,of course that is lie :D

C)make a prison for ultra-nationalists

D)connect with other states who fight against capitalism and make independent political platform

F)make charismatic leader who will steal money from capitalists so he can give that money to own people

and that is it

[luxemburg89]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 12:51 pm
Yugoslavia is the best example of how should communism or socialism work

A)shut down nationalism,but give people little space to call himself like they whant

B)screw up capitalist in sort of to take credits from one and then when you should back credit told them that other capitalist take that money becouse he say to you that capitalist from who you take a credit own fawer to him,of course that is lie :D

C)make a prison for ultra-nationalists

D)connect with other states who fight against capitalism and make independent political platform

F)make charismatic leader who will steal money from capitalists so he can give that money to own people

and that is it
And what a shining example of permanent Socialism it is now <_<. The former-Yugoslavia has much to answer for and I personally wouldn&#39;t mention its traits in my list of Communist or Socialist ideal states.

To the member who posted this thread: You make the mistake of asking &#39;how would one make communism work?&#39; Communism is not built on &#39;one&#39; it is built on &#39;all&#39;. By seeing yourself as making communism, and your relation to communism, you are setting a stage for total and utter failure, you want to look more at communism&#39;s relation to you.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by luxemburg89+October 15, 2007 08:13 pm--> (luxemburg89 @ October 15, 2007 08:13 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 12:51 pm
Yugoslavia is the best example of how should communism or socialism work

A)shut down nationalism,but give people little space to call himself like they whant

B)screw up capitalist in sort of to take credits from one and then when you should back credit told them that other capitalist take that money becouse he say to you that capitalist from who you take a credit own fawer to him,of course that is lie :D

C)make a prison for ultra-nationalists

D)connect with other states who fight against capitalism and make independent political platform

F)make charismatic leader who will steal money from capitalists so he can give that money to own people

and that is it
And what a shining example of permanent Socialism it is now <_<. The former-Yugoslavia has much to answer for and I personally wouldn&#39;t mention its traits in my list of Communist or Socialist ideal states.

To the member who posted this thread: You make the mistake of asking &#39;how would one make communism work?&#39; Communism is not built on &#39;one&#39; it is built on &#39;all&#39;. By seeing yourself as making communism, and your relation to communism, you are setting a stage for total and utter failure, you want to look more at communism&#39;s relation to you. [/b]
well Yugoslavia was the best example of socialism and communism, even Che mentioned many times that Cuba must do the same