A credible Source

[AGITprop]

I know that we all know that communism is defined as a stateless and classless society but i need a quote from a very credible source that communism is stateless and classless because a guy in my school argues with me all the time that communism requires a governemnt " look at the USSR and China and Cuba" and i keep telling him that no that is only their attaempt at the transitionnary period described by Marx and not actually communism itself. He BTW is a fascist, so anything to shut him up would be nice. Just need a quote from a very credible source.

[catch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:08 pm
I know that we all know that communism is defined as a stateless and classless society but i need a quote from a very credible source that communism is stateless and classless because a guy in my school argues with me all the time that communism requires a governemnt " look at the USSR and China and Cuba" and i keep telling him that no that is only their attaempt at the transitionnary period described by Marx and not actually communism itself. He BTW is a fascist, so anything to shut him up would be nice. Just need a quote from a very credible source.
What's a credible source?

I'm no fan of Bakunin, but

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" is nicely put.


There's also Marx's own words:


In fact, communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will leave to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.” (Marx; German Ideology)

And Gilles Dauve is usually pretty good on this:


Communism is not an ideal to be realized: it already exists, not as a society, but as an effort, a task to prepare for. It is the movement which tries to abolish the conditions of life determined by wage-labour, and it will abolish them by revolution. The discussion of communism is not academic. It is not a debate about what will be done tomorrow. It is an integral part of a whole series of immediate and distant tasks, among which discussion is only one aspect, an attempt to achieve theoretical understanding. Inversely, the tasks can be carried out more easily and efficiently if one can answer the question: where are we going?

We will not refute the CPs, the various brands of socialists, the extreme-left, etc., whose programmes merely modernize and democratize all existing features of the present world. The point isn't that these programmes are not communist, but that they are capitalist.
http://libcom.org/library/eclipse-re-emergence-giles-dauve

[AGITprop]

well im still kinda needing sumthing which clearly says stateless.Everytime i talk to this guy he insists thats once it is stateless it is anarchy and i agree, it is anarchy because theere is no state or sovereign but then i get confused on the fidderence between a communism and an anarchy. He says anarchy is only meant for small groups of people? im so fucking lost. someone help me.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Ender
He BTW is a fascist, so anything to shut him up would be nice.
Bandana soaked in rubbing alchohol should do the trick. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 11, 2007 11:25 pm
under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.
yea i know that but he refuses to belive me. he a pompous jerk anyway, people like that dont need to be educated, just locked away.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Ender+October 11, 2007 06:33 pm--> (Ender @ October 11, 2007 06:33 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 11, 2007 11:25 pm
under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.
yea i know that but he refuses to belive me. he a pompous jerk anyway, people like that dont need to be educated, just locked away. [/b]
Seriously.

[Radek]

"The state, then, has not existed from all eternity. There have been societies that did without it, that had no idea of the state and state power. At a certain stage of economic development, which was necessarily bound up with the split of society into classes, the state became a necessity owing to this split. We are now rapidly approaching a stage in the development of production at which the existence of these classes not only will have ceased to be a necessity, but will become a positive hindrance to production. They will fall as they arose at an earlier stage. Along with them the state will inevitably fall. Society, which will reorganize production on the basis of a free and equal association of the producers, will put the whole machinery of state where it will then belong: into a museum of antiquities, by the side of the spinning-wheel and the bronze axe." - Engels (stolen from State and Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch01.htm#s1))

[Killer Enigma]

Originally posted by Ender+October 11, 2007 11:33 pm--> (Ender @ October 11, 2007 11:33 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 11, 2007 11:25 pm
under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.
yea i know that but he refuses to belive me. he a pompous jerk anyway, people like that dont need to be educated, just locked away. [/b]
How anarcho-communist of you! Yes, let us lock away everyone who disagrees with us.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist..."
- Martin Niemöller

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Killer Enigma+October 20, 2007 02:35 pm--> (Killer Enigma @ October 20, 2007 02:35 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:33 pm

Ulster [email protected] 11, 2007 11:25 pm
under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.
yea i know that but he refuses to belive me. he a pompous jerk anyway, people like that dont need to be educated, just locked away.
How anarcho-communist of you! Yes, let us lock away everyone who disagrees with us.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist..."
- Martin Niemöller [/b]
dont be over-dramatic
i was only joking because i believe in the education of everyone
i dont consider locking people away a solution if they dont agree with your views otherwise i wouldnt be posting on this site

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by Lenin+--> (Lenin)While the State exists there can be no freedom; when there is freedom there will be no State.[/b]

Combine this with Engels' definition of communism:


Engels
Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.

[Forward Union]

"The society that organizes production anew on the basis of free and equal association of the producers will put the whole State machine where it will then belong: in the museum of antiquities, side by side with the spinning wheel and the bronze axe."

-Engels

And the Libertarian Communist P.J. Proudhon wrote a wonderfully poetic criticism of the state;

"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated, regimented, closed in, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, evaluated, censored, commanded. All by creatures that have neither the right, nor wisdom, nor virtue. . .

To be governed means that at every move, operation, or transaction one is noted, registered, entered in a census, taxed, stamped, priced, assessed, patented, licensed, authorized, recommended, admonished, prevented, reformed, set right, corrected.

Government means to be subjected to tribute, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, pressured, mystified, robbed; all in the name of public utility and the general good.

Then, at the first sign of resistance or word of complaint, one is repressed, fined, despised, vexed, pursued, hustled, beaten up, garroted, imprisoned, shot, machine-gunned, judged, sentenced, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed, and to cap all, ridiculed, mocked, outraged and dishonored. That is government. that is its justice and its morality.

O, human condition, how is it that you have cowered in subjugation for so long"

[Killer Enigma]

Originally posted by Ender+October 23, 2007 01:02 pm--> (Ender @ October 23, 2007 01:02 pm)
Originally posted by Killer [email protected] 20, 2007 02:35 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:33 pm

Ulster [email protected] 11, 2007 11:25 pm
under real communism, the people are the government. Under stalinism, the government become the beourgious class. Therein lies the difference.
yea i know that but he refuses to belive me. he a pompous jerk anyway, people like that dont need to be educated, just locked away.
How anarcho-communist of you! Yes, let us lock away everyone who disagrees with us.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist..."
- Martin Niemöller
dont be over-dramatic
i was only joking because i believe in the education of everyone
i dont consider locking people away a solution if they dont agree with your views otherwise i wouldnt be posting on this site [/b]
Yes. Posting on a site called "Revolutionary Left" composed of other like-minded leftists proves that you are a paradigm of tolerance. This is one of the most polarized political environments. I pity to think there are actually posters who come here and here only for political news, discussion, and theory.

[Ander]

I was going to say use a dictionary but maybe that's not such a good idea after all. One of dictionary.com's definitions is actually:

2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

None of their definitions even mention a classless or stateless society. Talk about disinformation!

[Eleftherios]

These are considered credible sources:

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/184...festo/index.htm (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm)

http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/o.htm#communism

EDIT: The last one might contain more on what you're looking for

[leftace53]

Well Wikipedia's Commie page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) says that communism is a stateless society quite nicely in the first line :P

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24, 2007 02:19 am
Well Wikipedia's Commie page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) says that communism is a stateless society quite nicely in the first line :P
wikipedia although most of the time has reliable information can at times be falsely promoting information because it is a wiki and people can modify it. although it does say communism is classless and stateless, i will need a maore scholarly source such as a political theorist's writings.

[Killer Enigma]

Originally posted by Ender+October 25, 2007 12:02 am--> (Ender @ October 25, 2007 12:02 am)
[email protected] 24, 2007 02:19 am
Well Wikipedia's Commie page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) says that communism is a stateless society quite nicely in the first line :P
wikipedia although most of the time has reliable information can at times be falsely promoting information because it is a wiki and people can modify it. although it does say communism is classless and stateless, i will need a maore scholarly source such as a political theorist's writings. [/b]
No kidding. Sadly, referencing wikipedia is fairly typical of the usual revleft suspects.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:08 pm
I know that we all know that communism is defined as a stateless and classless society but i need a quote from a very credible source that communism is stateless and classless because a guy in my school argues with me all the time that communism requires a governemnt " look at the USSR and China and Cuba" and i keep telling him that no that is only their attaempt at the transitionnary period described by Marx and not actually communism itself. He BTW is a fascist, so anything to shut him up would be nice. Just need a quote from a very credible source.
How about Marx? Or is he not considered a credible source on communism?