Bosnia dont have a capitalism

[hajduk]

in Bosnia we dont have capitalism at all,first what we have to do is to bring capitalists here so we can fight against them becouse right know we have only some small fishes around,like politicians which in the name of retorical national speking, just stealing the money from bosnians by any means necesary,also we have lot of crucks which just pretend to be a capitalists and with politicians whant to take the piece from state budget,others have small busines which you cant call capitalism becouse they are too small to be called himself a big corporation
on the end only big fish we have in state is MITTAL STEEL but this bosnian department of MITTAL STEEL just give the jobs to the workers which didnt have a job for years and this generation of bosnian workers didnt feel yet the real influences of capitalism like in your country,but in the other hand we try to make workers revolution in this factory in the manner to explain workers what they must know about capitalism and what should expected in the future about his place in capitalist system,some of them been released from work and some of them make some strikes in factory but on the end those who are made the strikes are just fight to get apartments which owned MITTAL STEEL,so in Bosnia we dont have actualy god capitalist enemy to fight against him becouse bosnian department of MITTAL STEEL is just in the begining no matter it is the part of big corporation,first bosnian revolutioners must make capitalist system to shut him down, believe it or not...

[Tower of Bebel]

There is no capitalism? What does Bosnia have then? (semi-)feodalism?
And you say that capitalism is defined by the power/influence of the (ruling) bourgeoisie?

[Comrade Rage]

What Bosnia has right now is more of a moribund monopolism.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:54 pm
There is no capitalism? What does Bosnia have then? (semi-)feodalism?
And you say that capitalism is defined by the power/influence of the (ruling) bourgeoisie?
now we have only transition which means that base for a state is still under construction,actualy we dont have capitalism like in Europe or America,we have some capitalists but like i told you they are small fishes who like to think about himself like capitalists but they are far from real capitalists,they have some small busines which cover just Bosnia and some other states in balkan area,so there is no strong influences of capitalism which you can defined like power of bourgeosie,the main power is in hand of nationalist which use nacionalism to rule

[Lamanov]

Finally he speaks about his theory. :rolleyes:

So were in, what - "non-mode of production"?

Do you know what capitalism is, since you claim Bosnia is not "in" one?

[Revolucija]

hajduk, it's very nice of you to bring some activism on and try to organise workers of 'Mittal Steel' but it is clear that you don't understand some theoretical facts. You can take a look at some revolutionary web portals (i guess you speak serbocroatian so you can browse http://inicijativa.org or Vikipedija). Section 'Revolutionary Left Zapadni Balkan' will also be interesting soon.

Anyway, I think that this topic should be locked ...

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18, 2007 07:31 pm
Anyway, I think that this topic should be locked ...
Why?

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:31 am
hajduk, it's very nice of you to bring some activism on and try to organise workers of 'Mittal Steel' but it is clear that you don't understand some theoretical facts. You can take a look at some revolutionary web portals (i guess you speak serbocroatian so you can browse http://inicijativa.org or Vikipedija). Section 'Revolutionary Left Zapadni Balkan' will also be interesting soon.

Anyway, I think that this topic should be locked ...
yes man but capitalism as we know really doesn exist in Bosnia,i mean you have some firms like i told before but still they dont have big influences in that manner
you have FDS-tobbaco factory in Sarajevo but they are to small
you have many liitle firms but they are not tight together like in Europe or America,they are small players on market so you cant call them HUGE CORPORATIONS like GM,MCDONALD OR COCA COLA,this last one has even own factory in Sarajevo but its still in the begining of making the position in Bosnia,you see the capitalism still didnt make here basic foundation like in other richest states

[wogboy]

The Bosnian economy is disfunctional.

There are shortages in every market imaginable.

Corruption is institutionalised at every level, and widespread. The corruptions perceptions index ranked Bosnia one of the lowest in Europe when I studied the figures just afew years ago.

If Bosnia is capitalist, then it is by no way conventional capitalism. For various reasons, it doesnt generate very much for itself, and very little goes back in.

Institutions and the rule of law are not properly developed, even though there has been ample time to develop them. The institutions during the era of Yugoslavia were far superior in this regard. Public policy is too, incomparable.

The privatisation page of BiH is full of local, small, medium and large scale business which are no longer operational, even though the movement towards an "efficient capitalist society" began 10 years ago.

If it wernt for strict economising by people and families, and repatriated money from relatives abroad, many people would live below the poverty level.

The state of the environment is also another good indicator. In some remote areas the natural beauty is breathtaking. However, river systems are in awful condition and what industrial infastructure is in place would never pass any EU criteria (and certainly the environmental standards of other European capitalist economies).

You could compare Bosnia with Slovenia and quite clearly see the sharp gaps between systems. Slovenia has moved very much in a capitalist path, despite the similar conservatism of each constituent populations.

Bosnia is abundant in natural wealth, but formerly state owned property has been left to decay, or bought by foreign firms with no intention of developing it. It is only very recently that Russia has been investing in the Serb Republic (in Modrica for example) to rebuild oil plants, electricity and telecommunications.

Bosnia doesnt really fit the model of a captiatalist society, although it does at the same time have elements of it. I think this is partly due to its disfunctional system of self government (legalised at Dayton). What Dayton does is enable a specific class of elite to exploit the system and the people.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 12:11 pm


Bosnia doesnt really fit the model of a captiatalist society, although it does at the same time have elements of it.
this is totaly correct explanation about capitalism in Bosnia
you have model of capitalism but you dont have capitalism influences on society

[Lamanov]

It doesn't matter if there are no huge corporations, no "European standards" in production. Also, existence of "disfunctional" - what exactly? - and "high levels of corruption" do not mean that capitalism doesn't exist.

Relation of privatisation vs. nationalisation, also, as your primary argument, doesn't mean anything: economy could be 100% nationalised and still be a capitalist one. We've seen it.

I would like to see some actual argumets that include full understanding of what capitalism is.

[wogboy]

How can you have a capitalist society when the very basic elements of capitalism itself are either non-existent or do not function in reality there?

[Lamanov]

How can you not have a capitalist society when the very basic elements of capitalism exist and function in reality?

I live in Bosnia. Just like anywhere in the world, allot of things are "disfunctional". But just like everywhere else, capitalism is as obvious as it gets to be.

To be quite hones, I don't see the problem here, just as I can't see the actual argument.

[wogboy]

"I live in Bosnia. Just like anywhere in the world, allot of things are "disfunctional". "

In the political sphere you would probably need to go into the 3rd world to find a country that shares the same disfunctionality as Bosnia. At that level you would certainly have to question the functioning of the system, and how in fact it functions at all. In Bosnia people developed their own coping mechanisms which are independent of whatever "capitalist" model apparently exists there. Bosnia barely has control over itself and its own political destiny let alone the ability to run any functioning system at all.

The argument that Bosnia fits the model of a capitalist economy and society falls apart as soon as you wander throughout Europe. You see differences as soon as you walk into Croatia. I would go as far as arguing that there were greater elements of capitalism in Bosnia under communism.

I would agree that the international community has attempted to set up capitalist styled institutions there. I would then argue that the success of these institutional arrangements has either been limited or a complete failure.

Normal people are particulary apprehensive towards the legislative arrangements let alone the cost of this bureacracy. The country itself is only loosely united politically. Where exactly can any transparent system exist under such conditions? Being from Bosnia you would know what Im talking about.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 10:16 am
"I live in Bosnia. Just like anywhere in the world, allot of things are "disfunctional". "

In the political sphere you would probably need to go into the 3rd world to find a country that shares the same disfunctionality as Bosnia. At that level you would certainly have to question the functioning of the system, and how in fact it functions at all. In Bosnia people developed their own coping mechanisms which are independent of whatever "capitalist" model apparently exists there. Bosnia barely has control over itself and its own political destiny let alone the ability to run any functioning system at all.

The argument that Bosnia fits the model of a capitalist economy and society falls apart as soon as you wander throughout Europe. You see differences as soon as you walk into Croatia. I would go as far as arguing that there were greater elements of capitalism in Bosnia under communism.

I would agree that the international community has attempted to set up capitalist styled institutions there. I would then argue that the success of these institutional arrangements has either been limited or a complete failure.

Normal people are particulary apprehensive towards the legislative arrangements let alone the cost of this bureacracy. The country itself is only loosely united politically. Where exactly can any transparent system exist under such conditions? Being from Bosnia you would know what Im talking about.
yup

[Lamanov]

Fine, I see you want it the hard way -- Wogboy: what's capitalism?


Originally posted by hajduk
yup

Stop posting one-liners.

[wogboy]

"Fine, I see you want it the hard way -- Wogboy: what's capitalism?"

Stripped to its naked shell, Capitalism is:


Y = Cd + Id + Gd + (EX − IM)

Incidently, if you ever want to destroy a capitalist system there are several ways to do it through any one of those parameters.

Y is national income
For Bosnia very low for many reasons. National income drives a capitalist society and capitalists are always searching for ways to increase it. It pays for institutions and perpetuates national life under such a system.


Cd is internal consumption.

For Bosnia is very low and I think Bosnia is one of the poorest countries in Europe. I know how normal people live there and nobody is affluent nor do they have money for many things that are taken for granted abroad. Microwaves, DVD players, extra money to buy portable heaters in winter, medicines, vehicle ownership, adult families living in 1 bedroom appartments....


Id is internal investment (for Bosnia is very low)

You need capital. You need technology. You need machinery. You need money to invest in the education (productivity) of the labour force. This system is dynamic.

No offence intended, but I would say that up to 75% of the countries infrustructure dates to communist development. Trains definately. On the train from sarajevo to Doboj I heard the joke "thank god tito gave us trains". The majority of the roads are not far off the condition of those on the curving greek mountains. AIR BOSNA went bankrupt two times already and wouldnt exist without 2 outdated, and donated planes. There all old becasue the so called capitalist system in Bosnia in not generating any investment, and therefore no returns to it (proffits) either. The program of privatisation in Bosnia is known largely as a failure. In its infancy it was also riddled with corruption.


GD or Government funding.

Teh VAT was introduced becasue the international community cut budgets to annual aid. The tax system was reformed so now people that are left high and dry by the system are skinned even further.


EX - IM are net exports (for bosnia Imports exceede exports, reducing net income).

Bosnia runs a deficit. It is not unusual for a counrty to run a deficit, but Bosnia under any other circumstances should be a net-exporter. It is abundant in natural resources including minerals and energy. Agriculture is also underdeveloped.

Deficits are funded by borrowing or the spending of domestic funds (govt money) which would otherwise be used for investment (Id)


The entire system does not work in Bosnia, despite the fact that the population is very well educated and that the country is abundant in natural goods.

The reason why this system has never been able to work (and why I think Bosnia is hardly capitalist as a result) is because of the political and accompanying legislative framework imposed on Bosnia through Dayton. The country is split 3 ways politically + it has the added burden of European administration. Economic activity is generated in silos, not as a national contribution. People develop their own ways of doing business to "beat the system"

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 01:39 pm
People develop their own ways of doing business to "beat the system"
yes,like i told before bosnians do that by making small busines and firms with tendency to go on "free market" but problem for them is, becouse they are to small to provide profit they cant be strong partner with other bigger corporations which moust of time try to,like wogboy said,increase the profit with own products on bosnian market but in part of privatisation in Bosnia the main roll play nationalist parties which dont let money to go trough bosnian market,becouse when national politicians sell some state property the money they got from busines guys from Europe or the other states,nationalists putting in own pocket and that money is have purpose to make bosnian market,but when capitalists from Europe or America see that money dont go trough bosnian market they give up becouse for them that is to mutch riskie,so then what we have?
we have model for capitalism but we dont have capitalism at all,instead of that all the time we have TRANSITION

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by wogboy+--> (wogboy)Incidently, if you ever want to destroy a capitalist system there are several ways to do it through any one of those parameters.[/b]

I allways thought capitalism is destroyed by collective action at the place where capital reproduces itself -- workplace. But that's just silly ol' me...


Originally posted by [email protected]
Y = Cd + Id + Gd + (EX − IM)

You stated a formula for running a sucessfull capitalist economy, but precisely because you showed that those things operate de facto (it doesn't matter "how"), it means that Bosnia runs on a capitalist system. You might say it's "defunct" because it runs in deficit; you might note how its means of production date from state-capitalist era ("Communist"); you might notice how working class lacks "many things", but it still consumes enough to reproduce its own labor power, and it keeps it - at least most part of it - comming back to work every morning.

Just because country runs in deficite, because it lacks "normal" [sic] levels of consumption, etc., it doesn't mean it's "not capitalist". That's just silly.


hajduk
...like i told before bosnians do that by making small busines and firms with tendency to go on "free market" but problem for them is, becouse they are to small to provide profit they cant be strong partner with other bigger corporations...

If any business wouldn't be able to "provide profit" it wouldn't exist. Period.

Your lack of understanding makes you think up these fantastic "sociologist" pipedreams.

[wogboy]

"I allways thought capitalism is destroyed by collective action at the place where capital reproduces itself -- workplace. But that's just silly ol' me..."

All systems including communist ones are brought about and destroyed by collective action, largely in response to shrinking economies. The process is initiated when enough fever and action is generated against the current living standards and quality of life. In the middle of the last century the roots of communism were much easier to sow in particular areas where it did becasue most were underdeveloped (in Yugoslavia, the rural areas). On a microscale, when I think of communist revolution in Yugoslavia, it was driven more by the peasantry (the poorest of the poor). This is especially true in Bosnia, where, if I may add, the biggest battles of the whole liberation struggle occurred. The collapse of the Yugoslav system cannot be independent of the crisis which had manifested itself in the economy either. Who, or what you think destroys a system is irrelevant to me. The princilpes are universal.

"You stated a formula for running a sucessfull capitalist economy, but precisely because you showed that those things operate de facto (it doesn't matter "how"), it means that Bosnia runs on a capitalist system."

The formula applies to any economy as the principle relationships between all the parameters exist everywhere, in any society throught the world. I explained the capitalist variant by drawing on examples to show how this type isnt transparently clear. The difference between capitalism and commuism is solely on how wealth is organised and distributed. This is determined by the importance placed on any one of those parameters. So you know, Yugoslavians bought and sold things ©, they invested money in factories and roads (I), there was certainly government funds (G), [which plays the most dominant role in the socialist economy] and I can tell you that Yugoslavia was certainly a trading nation (EX-IM).

"You might say it's "defunct" because it runs in deficit; you might note how its means of production date from state-capitalist era ("Communist"); you might notice how working class lacks "many things", but it still consumes enough to reproduce its own labor power, and it keeps it - at least most part of it - comming back to work every morning".

What percentage of the population in Bosnia has work exactly??? Of those that do, how many are employed full time??? I was in Jajce not long ago and noticed that self sufficieny was a matter of survival to many of the people who lived there. Dont underestimate the importance of repatriated wages and income from relatives overseas either (Switzerland, Netherlands, France, Austria, Germany, Australia, Canada, UK, USA for example). There is probably more dependence on this source of income than at any other time, simply becasue of the lack of any functioning system at all (or at least, one with clarity and set principles).

If the majority had access to a job (and then it could be said that everybody kept coming back to work) then perhaps a conventional capitalist system would be present in Bosnia. You would also need Bosnian run institutions and a political system which doesnt split the country in 3 pieces running independently of one another. Dont forget the role of the OHR and how it tangles your so called capitalist economy. How any system at all could function under such conditions is irrational for me to imagine. It is precisely why corruption is so widespread and self defeating.

"If any business wouldn't be able to "provide profit" it wouldn't exist. Period."

This is elementary, but credit to you for understanding. To extend the analysis slightly further: The ability to generate wealth is what keeps entire systems alive, be they capitalist or communist. You will never change the fact that people will always desire for more than what they have. It is what capitalism promises and a founding tenant of communism also-that people will have the means avaliable to live better lives. Hence, I return you to my initial point at the top of this post.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 11:33 am
"I allways thought capitalism is destroyed by collective action at the place where capital reproduces itself -- workplace. But that's just silly ol' me..."

All systems including communist ones are brought about and destroyed by collective action, largely in response to shrinking economies. The process is initiated when enough fever and action is generated against the current living standards and quality of life. In the middle of the last century the roots of communism were much easier to sow in particular areas where it did becasue most were underdeveloped (in Yugoslavia, the rural areas). On a microscale, when I think of communist revolution in Yugoslavia, it was driven more by the peasantry (the poorest of the poor). This is especially true in Bosnia, where, if I may add, the biggest battles of the whole liberation struggle occurred. The collapse of the Yugoslav system cannot be independent of the crisis which had manifested itself in the economy either. Who, or what you think destroys a system is irrelevant to me. The princilpes are universal.

"You stated a formula for running a sucessfull capitalist economy, but precisely because you showed that those things operate de facto (it doesn't matter "how"), it means that Bosnia runs on a capitalist system."

The formula applies to any economy as the principle relationships between all the parameters exist everywhere, in any society throught the world. I explained the capitalist variant by drawing on examples to show how this type is not working. The difference between capitalism and commuism is solely on how wealth is organised and distributed. This is determined by the importance placed on any one of those parameters. So you know, Yugoslavians bought and sold things ©, they invested money in factories and roads (I), there was certainly government funds (G), which played the most dominant role in the economy) and I can tell you that Yugoslavia was certainly a trading nation (EX-IM).

"You might say it's "defunct" because it runs in deficit; you might note how its means of production date from state-capitalist era ("Communist"); you might notice how working class lacks "many things", but it still consumes enough to reproduce its own labor power, and it keeps it - at least most part of it - comming back to work every morning".

What percentage of the population in Bosnia has work exactly? Of those that do, how many are employed full time? If everybody had access to a job then perhaps a conventional capitalist system would be present in Bosnia. You would also need Bosnian run institutions and a political system which doesnt split the country in 3 pieces running independently of one another. Dont forget the role of the OHR and how it tangles your so called capitalist economy. How any system could function under such conditions is irrational for me to imagine.

Dont underestimate the importance of repatriated wages and income from relatives overseas (Switzerland, Netherlands, France, Austria, Germany, Australia, Canada, UK, USA for example). There is probably more dependence on this source of income than at any other time, simply becasue of the lack of any functioning system at all (or at least, one with clarity and set principles).

"If any business wouldn't be able to "provide profit" it wouldn't exist. Period."

This is elementary, but credit to you for understanding. To extend the analysis slightly further: The ability to generate wealth is what keeps entire systems alive, be they capitalist or communist. Hence, I return you to my initial point at the top of this post.
yes wogboy that is my point with OHR we dont have chance to make capitalism,of course only if OHR let that happened,but they dont becouse like i told before the conditions of bosnian market for capitalist is to mutch riskie

[wogboy]

The OHR fails becasue it is trying to create something where nothing except corruption can exist-amongst the legislative arrangements imposed through Dayton.

[hajduk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 12:19 pm
The OHR fails becasue it is trying to create something where nothing except corruption can exist-amongst the legislative arrangements imposed through Dayton.
yes and then OHR acuse others for own mistakes