Armenian Genocide

[AGITprop]

I don't know if this has been covered here but I was wondering about what your thoughts were on the Armenian genocide and Turkey's failure to recognize it.

I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century and it just does not get enough attention.

I believe that Hitler justified his Holocaust by saying that no one remembered the Armenians, why would they the Jews.

Im very upset that this issue does not get the attention it deserves because , I may not have been here if my ancestors hand't decided to leave Armenia.

[Die Neue Zeit]

My only interest in the Armenian genocide lies in the fact that the Soviets (even the Bolsheviks themselves) were mum about the topic during the era of Soviet Armenia.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:02 am
My only interest in the Armenian genocide lies in the fact that the Soviets (even the Bolsheviks themselves) were mum about the topic during the era of Soviet Armenia.
wtf does mum mean?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
wtf does mum mean?
^^^ That they had no official position, declaration, etc. on the genocide itself whatsoever (ie, being silent) :(

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Hammer+October 11, 2007 01:09 am--> (Hammer @ October 11, 2007 01:09 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
wtf does mum mean?
^^^ That they had no official position, declaration, etc. on the genocide itself whatsoever (ie, being silent) :( [/b]
i see
and i find that ridiculous because what kinda good communist is silent about a FUCKING GENOCIDE

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 06:24 pm
i see
and i find that ridiculous because what kinda good communist is silent about a FUCKING GENOCIDE
^^^ You have to remember the limited communication technology of Lenin&#39;s time. <_<

Now, as for the silence of Stalin and his successors, yeah.

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by Ender+October 11, 2007 01:24 am--> (Ender @ October 11, 2007 01:24 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 01:09 am

[email protected] 10, 2007 06:05 pm
wtf does mum mean?
^^^ That they had no official position, declaration, etc. on the genocide itself whatsoever (ie, being silent) :(
i see
and i find that ridiculous because what kinda good communist is silent about a FUCKING GENOCIDE [/b]
The Bolsheviks, unfortunately, attacked Armenia with Turkey and supported Kemalist Turkey. This is my biggest criticism of the Bolsheviks, and there is no need to even attempt to justify what they did.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 07:14 pm
The Bolsheviks, unfortunately, attacked Armenia with Turkey and supported Kemalist Turkey. This is my biggest criticism of the Bolsheviks, and there is no need to even attempt to justify what they did.
^^^ Um, didn&#39;t that occur after the formal collapse of the Ottoman Empire, under which the genocide occurred in the first place? :huh:

[My biggest beef is the sellout of Finnish workers, due primarily to the inability of Lenin&#39;s faction to suppress Trotsky&#39;s and Bukharin&#39;s early enough to force Brest-Litovsk, thus allowing for future aid to Soviet Hungary, and thus allowing for a potentially harmless backtrack on Finnish "national self-determination."]

[spartan]

Apparently Turkey is threatening to cut support to the US in Iraq over the Armenian bill in the US which if passed in the congress or senate (I can not remeber which one) will see the US officialy recognizing the Armenian genocide which of course Turkey does not want.

This is the latest in a series of incidents that have seriously strained relations between the US and Turkey (Who just happen to be the USA&#39;s biggest ally in the middle east and a counter balance to Iran).

Another of the "incidents" was US support of Kurdish organizations in Iraq who have been giving some of the equipment, intelligence and money, given to them by the US, to the PKK who are a Kurdish seperatist movement in Turkey.

The reason the US is giving all this equipment to the Kurds in northern Iraq is because they the most likely to be pro US compared to all the other ethnic groups in Iraq and they have links to Kurdish rebels within Iran itself&#33; Meaning the US can strike a blow against it&#39;s most deadly enemy to "peace" in the Middle east, namely Iran, without doing any of the dirty work themselves.

It should also be noted that Iran supports anti US resistance fighters in Iraq so this support of Kurdish rebels in Iran is also the USA&#39;s way of getting back at Iran by playing their own game.

[thescarface1989]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038095.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/10/us....iref=newssearch (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/10/us.turkey.armenians/index.html?iref=newssearch)

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/ma...tml?id=3356673n (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3356673n)

[Eleftherios]

Originally posted by Hammer+October 11, 2007 02:25 am--> (Hammer @ October 11, 2007 02:25 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 07:14 pm
The Bolsheviks, unfortunately, attacked Armenia with Turkey and supported Kemalist Turkey. This is my biggest criticism of the Bolsheviks, and there is no need to even attempt to justify what they did.
^^^ Um, didn&#39;t that occur after the formal collapse of the Ottoman Empire, under which the genocide occurred in the first place? :huh:

[/b]
I should clear that up: I wasn&#39;t talking about the Armenian geneocide, I was talking about Armenia as an independent country. But I am also mad that the Bolsheviks were silent on the Armenian geneocide.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then.

[вор в законе]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+October 11, 2007 03:50 pm--> (Led Zeppelin &#064; October 11, 2007 03:50 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then.[/b]
I don&#39;t see anything funny as regards to a genocide. Maybe you should clarify what&#39;s so funny about the deaths of millions and stick to the topic.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by Red Brigade+October 11, 2007 06:00 pm--> (Red Brigade @ October 11, 2007 06:00 pm)
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 11, 2007 03:50 pm

[email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then.
I don&#39;t see anything funny as regards to a genocide. Maybe you should clarify what&#39;s so funny about the deaths of millions and stick to the topic. [/b]
I think you&#39;ve misunderstood him. What he is laughing about is the fact that Ender considers the Armenian Genocide to one of the most important events of the 20th Century. He isn&#39;t finding anything funny about the systematic slaughter of a people.

[вор в законе]

I guess Ender lost members of his family there and its an emotionally charged topic for him so we can show some understanding if he thinks that way, which I don&#39;t agree either, instead of laughing like adolescent bullies.

[catch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 02:25 am

^^^ Um, didn&#39;t that occur after the formal collapse of the Ottoman Empire, under which the genocide occurred in the first place? :huh:




August
The Turkish Nationalist and Bolshevik forces form an alliance.

November 22
President Woodrow Wilson presents his delineation of the borders of Armenia. A week later Armenia is partitioned by Turkish Nationalist forces and Sovietized by Russian Bolsheviks.

November
Of 10,000 Armenians living in Hadjin (Hajen), only 480 survive a massacre by Turkish Nationalist forces.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/1920.html
Trotsky also used a Turkish general (friend of Attaturk) to command Red Army (themselves Turkmen) troops at Kronstadt.



[My biggest beef is the sellout of Finnish workers, due primarily to the inability of Lenin&#39;s faction to suppress Trotsky&#39;s and Bukharin&#39;s early enough to force Brest-Litovsk, thus allowing for future aid to Soviet Hungary, and thus allowing for a potentially harmless backtrack on Finnish "national self-determination."]

Well Trotsky quoted Lenin on Brest Litovsk saying this, doesn&#39;t look like suppression would&#39;ve helped much. And Bukharin&#39;s lot were against the treaty entirely.

“With this understanding the experiment is probably not so dangerous. We risk the loss of Esthonia and Letvia. Some Esthonian comrades came to see me recently and told me how splendidly the peasants had begun the socialist structure. It is a great pity if we must sacrifice socialist Esthonia,” Lenin said jokingly, “but for the sake of a good peace it is worth while agreeing to a compromise.”
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1925/lenin/04.htm

[Leo]

I hope to reply at rest of the points later on, when I&#39;m not drunk. On one point:


Trotsky also used a Turkish general (friend of Attaturk) to command Red Army (themselves Turkmen) troops at Kronstadt.

I have read about a high up Turkish general* taking some role in the suppression of Kronstadt. I will look into the details of it in Turkish sources but any information and sources on it before that would be appreciated.

*Ali Fuat Cebesoy

[catch]

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-7438...%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4 (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-7438(197210)3%3A4%3C491%3AGAFCAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4)



The revolt of the Red sailors at the Kronstadt naval base near Petrograd,
1-18 March 1921, constituted a major threat to the new, unstable, and economically
destitute Soviet regime in Russia. Although other uprisings against Soviet
power had been successfully suppressed, this revolt of the Red sailors, among the
foremost supporters of the Bolshevik seizure of authority on 25 October 1917, was a severe blow to Soviet prestige at home and abroad.
Because of their popularity, the government was apprehensive about depending
upon regular Soviet troops to suppress the uprising. Its predicament has been
substantiated, for the first time, by Soviet Marshal Ivan S. Konev in his
&#39;Reminiscences&#39;, where he admits that some Soviet trainees and artillerymen
refused outright to fire on their rebel comrades.
In this crisis the Soviet government received crucial support from an unexpected
foreign source through the personal intervention of an outstanding noncommunist,
General Ali Fuat Cebesoy (1882-1968), first ambassador of the
Turkish Republic to Soviet Russia. General Cebesoy, who received his official
appointment as ambassador on 21 November 1920, arrived in Moscow on
27 February 1921, on the very eve of the Kronstadt Revolt. He remained at this
post until the spring of 1922.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+October 11, 2007 03:50 pm--> (Led Zeppelin @ October 11, 2007 03:50 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then. [/b]
its nationalistic i guess in the sense that i do consider them my ancestors and i take pride in my roots but i also find it important because it is genocide of a people and not only because they are armenians. i consider Hitler&#39;s holocaust a great tragedy as well but that does not require any of my lamenting because it has been discussed many a time and i and everyone else fully understands its impact on history as opposed to that of the armenian genocide.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 07:53 pm
I believe that Hitler justified his Holocaust by saying that no one remembered the Armenians, why would they the Jews.

"Even if Germany shal lose this mortal struggle [WWII], and this secret is revealed it will no matter. It is too grand, no one shall believe it, and even if they were to, it shall not matter. It will be forgotten, after all who remembers the Turks slaughtering the Armenians?"

-Adolf Hitler, 1941

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+October 11, 2007 11:06 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ October 11, 2007 11:06 pm)
[email protected] 10, 2007 07:53 pm
I believe that Hitler justified his Holocaust by saying that no one remembered the Armenians, why would they the Jews.

"Even if Germany shal lose this mortal struggle [WWII], and this secret is revealed it will no matter. It is too grand, no one shall believe it, and even if they were to, it shall not matter. It will be forgotten, after all who remembers the Turks slaughtering the Armenians?"

-Adolf Hitler, 1941 [/b]
thanx very much, exactly what i thought he said.

[Comrade Rage]

Originally posted by Ender+October 11, 2007 06:09 pm--> (Ender &#064; October 11, 2007 06:09 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 11, 2007 11:06 pm

[email protected] 10, 2007 07:53 pm
I believe that Hitler justified his Holocaust by saying that no one remembered the Armenians, why would they the Jews.

"Even if Germany shal lose this mortal struggle [WWII], and this secret is revealed it will no matter. It is too grand, no one shall believe it, and even if they were to, it shall not matter. It will be forgotten, after all who remembers the Turks slaughtering the Armenians?"

-Adolf Hitler, 1941
thanx very much, exactly what i thought he said. [/b]
That&#39;s the exact quote, it&#39;s from a meeting he had with Hermann Goering, General of the Luftwaffe. Goering was the first prominent German to join the Nazi party, and Hitler thought he could trust him enough to talk with him about extirpating the Jews. Goering wrote the conversation down as a record.

Thing like this are what I usually use to confront Nazis who claim Hitler had no involvement in the Holocaust.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+October 11, 2007 11:13 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ October 11, 2007 11:13 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 06:09 pm

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 11, 2007 11:06 pm

[email protected] 10, 2007 07:53 pm
I believe that Hitler justified his Holocaust by saying that no one remembered the Armenians, why would they the Jews.

"Even if Germany shal lose this mortal struggle [WWII], and this secret is revealed it will no matter. It is too grand, no one shall believe it, and even if they were to, it shall not matter. It will be forgotten, after all who remembers the Turks slaughtering the Armenians?"

-Adolf Hitler, 1941
thanx very much, exactly what i thought he said.
That&#39;s the exact quote, it&#39;s from a meeting he had with Hermann Goering, General of the Luftwaffe. Goering was the first prominent German to join the Nazi party, and Hitler thought he could trust him enough to talk with him about extirpating the Jews. Goering wrote the conversation down as a record.

Thing like this are what I usually use to confront Nazis who claim Hitler had no involvement in the Holocaust. [/b]
fucking owned. thanx alot

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Red Brigade+October 11, 2007 05:00 pm--> (Red Brigade &#064; October 11, 2007 05:00 pm)
Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+October 11, 2007 03:50 pm--> (Led Zeppelin &#064; October 11, 2007 03:50 pm)
[email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then.[/b]
I don&#39;t see anything funny as regards to a genocide. Maybe you should clarify what&#39;s so funny about the deaths of millions and stick to the topic. [/b]
Don&#39;t be an idiot. Of course I wasn&#39;t laughing at the genocide, are you even sane?

I was laughing at his position on the subject, and him claiming that it was "one of the most important events of the 20th century", and he later explained himself and proved my point.

As you can read here:


Ender
its nationalistic i guess in the sense that i do consider them my ancestors and i take pride in my roots but i also find it important because it is genocide of a people and not only because they are armenians. i consider Hitler&#39;s holocaust a great tragedy as well but that does not require any of my lamenting because it has been discussed many a time and i and everyone else fully understands its impact on history as opposed to that of the armenian genocide.

Well yes, of course I agree with you that any genocide is terrible and equally disturbing to any sane human being. And I also agree that the Armenian genocide has received a lot less attention than for example the holocaust.

See, genocides committed by imperialist powers that are still in power aren&#39;t really brought up a lot, because they don&#39;t want to "step on their toes". Take for example the genocide of the Native Americans. US history textbooks are still full of bullshit about them, and I can understand full well that a Native American person would be very deeply offended by it&#33;

But we must be Marxists and see things objectively. Yes the genocide of the Armenians was terrible, and I say that not was an Armenian or a person with Armenian ancestry, but as a human being, and I believe you should too.

I don&#39;t believe the Armenian genocide was one of the most important events of the 20th century. I believe there are a lot more events more important and significant, because they saved more lives in the end. Take for example the battle of Stalingrad, which, arguably, saved the world from Nazism. Imagine how many genocides would&#39;ve happened if the USSR was defeated&#33;

Don&#39;t downplay genocides, but also do not blow them up to something they are not just because your ancestors were the victims. My ancestors were killed my Mongol hordes several hundred years ago...I don&#39;t consider that a major event of human history, let alone of that time-period. But I do recognize its horrible nature.

Objective analysis of history is what I was calling for.

[AGITprop]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+October 12, 2007 06:25 am--> (Led Zeppelin @ October 12, 2007 06:25 am)
Originally posted by Red Brigade+October 11, 2007 05:00 pm--> (Red Brigade &#064; October 11, 2007 05:00 pm)
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 11, 2007 03:50 pm

[email protected] 11, 2007 12:53 am
I believe that the Armenian genocide was one of the most important happenings of the 20th century
LOL, right. You must have a pretty warped (nationalistic?) view of the 20th century then.
I don&#39;t see anything funny as regards to a genocide. Maybe you should clarify what&#39;s so funny about the deaths of millions and stick to the topic. [/b]
Don&#39;t be an idiot. Of course I wasn&#39;t laughing at the genocide, are you even sane?

I was laughing at his position on the subject, and him claiming that it was "one of the most important events of the 20th century", and he later explained himself and proved my point.

As you can read here:


Ender
its nationalistic i guess in the sense that i do consider them my ancestors and i take pride in my roots but i also find it important because it is genocide of a people and not only because they are armenians. i consider Hitler&#39;s holocaust a great tragedy as well but that does not require any of my lamenting because it has been discussed many a time and i and everyone else fully understands its impact on history as opposed to that of the armenian genocide.

Well yes, of course I agree with you that any genocide is terrible and equally disturbing to any sane human being. And I also agree that the Armenian genocide has received a lot less attention than for example the holocaust.

See, genocides committed by imperialist powers that are still in power aren&#39;t really brought up a lot, because they don&#39;t want to "step on their toes". Take for example the genocide of the Native Americans. US history textbooks are still full of bullshit about them, and I can understand full well that a Native American person would be very deeply offended by it&#33;

But we must be Marxists and see things objectively. Yes the genocide of the Armenians was terrible, and I say that not was an Armenian or a person with Armenian ancestry, but as a human being, and I believe you should too.

I don&#39;t believe the Armenian genocide was one of the most important events of the 20th century. I believe there are a lot more events more important and significant, because they saved more lives in the end. Take for example the battle of Stalingrad, which, arguably, saved the world from Nazism. Imagine how many genocides would&#39;ve happened if the USSR was defeated&#33;

Don&#39;t downplay genocides, but also do not blow them up to something they are not just because your ancestors were the victims. My ancestors were killed my Mongol hordes several hundred years ago...I don&#39;t consider that a major event of human history, let alone of that time-period. But I do recognize its horrible nature.

Objective analysis of history is what I was calling for. [/b]
thats fine..i was just saying that i wished it was more recognized. maybe that to u is not objective because i am of armenian descent.

[Sky]

My only interest in the Armenian genocide lies in the fact that the Soviets (even the Bolsheviks themselves) were mum about the topic during the era of Soviet Armenia.
This is only half true. The Soviet Union recognized the Armenian Genocide after 1965 following a massive demonstration of 1 million Armenians in Yerevan.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 08:22 pm

My only interest in the Armenian genocide lies in the fact that the Soviets (even the Bolsheviks themselves) were mum about the topic during the era of Soviet Armenia.
This is only half true. The Soviet Union recognized the Armenian Genocide after 1965 following a massive demonstration of 1 million Armenians in Yerevan.
I stand corrected, but that even the Khrushchev partyocracy didn&#39;t recognize the genocide while ceding the Crimea to the Ukraine is terrible. :(

[MarxSchmarx]

I think many people in Turkey like Orhan Pamuk recognize the genocide took place. The problem is they can&#39;t speak out about it for fear of "insulting Turkishnes." I don&#39;t understand why its government is so opposed to recognizing the genocide. It already repudiates so much of the Ottoman government&#39;s traditions.

At some point, it becomes a matter of covering your ass. I bet the bureaucrats and politicians in Ankara have dug there heels in too deep to back down, but they must realize it&#39;s only a matter of time before world opinion turns decisively against them. No one is saying Turkey should hand over eastern provinces to Armenia or something. It just seems rather silly and cruel for Turkey not to recognize the genocide.

[ComradeR]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23, 2007 03:00 am
I think many people in Turkey like Orhan Pamuk recognize the genocide took place. The problem is they can&#39;t speak out about it for fear of "insulting Turkishnes." I don&#39;t understand why its government is so opposed to recognizing the genocide. It already repudiates so much of the Ottoman government&#39;s traditions.

At some point, it becomes a matter of covering your ass. I bet the bureaucrats and politicians in Ankara have dug there heels in too deep to back down, but they must realize it&#39;s only a matter of time before world opinion turns decisively against them. No one is saying Turkey should hand over eastern provinces to Armenia or something. It just seems rather silly and cruel for Turkey not to recognize the genocide.
That&#39;s what nationalism does, the nationalists will not recognize anything that would put a black eye on their nations (and it&#39;s past) image. They will cling stubbornly to their position for as long as they can.