i dont know where to go, or what to do?

[R_P_A_S]

everywhere i read, i look and run to there are current events consuming the working class. And I feel like I can help. I feel I can teach someone, encourage, and organize. It's like "I know what the problem is guys! and We can fix it!" but It's so overwhelming. Every day the world changes and time, i feel is not my friend.

I want to be more involved join an organization do something more than just criticize capitalism and learning. Learning and educating my self is important and I will always do that. But I want to put my words into ACTION! I just don't feel that threads, essays, blogs, handing out leaflets, or even going to some sentimental liberal rant street corner protest is enough or even progressive. maybe im just jaded? =/ but i sure as hell am desperate and a bit left out.

[R_P_A_S]

And an other thing. all this leftist organizations that some of you are a part of and some are not.
Well it just confuses me because lots of people also bash them. I don't even know what my stance is. I think its pretty basic.. Pro Socialism, anti Capitalism. but there are all this fucking rules and theories and believes and bla bla bla. that I get confused and I don"t even know what to join. who to side with and who is full of shit....

[spartan]

I think the perfect ideology for you is individualistic Anarchism!

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 11:44 pm
And an other thing. all this leftist organizations that some of you are a part of and some are not.
Well it just confuses me because lots of people also bash them. I don't even know what my stance is. I think its pretty basic.. Pro Socialism, anti Capitalism. but there are all this fucking rules and theories and believes and bla bla bla. that I get confused and I don"t even know what to join. who to side with and who is full of shit....
I'd go with whoever is active and doing good shit in your area. If it turns out that they suck, at least you're an experience richer and can move on. You can't become a good diver if you don't dare to jump off the diving board.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:44 pm
And an other thing. all this leftist organizations that some of you are a part of and some are not.
Well it just confuses me because lots of people also bash them. I don't even know what my stance is. I think its pretty basic.. Pro Socialism, anti Capitalism. but there are all this fucking rules and theories and believes and bla bla bla. that I get confused and I don"t even know what to join. who to side with and who is full of shit....
"A political ideology is a very handy thing to have. It's a real time-saver, because it tells you what you think about things you know nothing about." - Hendrik Hertzberg

Learn about the issues, and never think you have to adopt a stance just for the sake of having something to say. Truth be told, everyone is full of shit.

[R_P_A_S]

i dont know guys. Why cant we just get rid of this fucking system and then maybe fight it out....

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Getting rid of a system that has the support of most its participants would only acquire us something along the lines of the Soviet Union. Our job, historically, will be to both come to terms with the larger movement and teach people about the alternatives.

Fighting between ourselves does none of us any good. As socialists and anarchists we should have faith in the democratic system. Allowing the people to decide what's best for them is what the Leftist movement hinges on.

We each have something to contribute. Determing what that "thing" is will be up to you.

[R_P_A_S]

fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 10:45 pm
I think the perfect ideology for you is individualistic Anarchism!
fuck ideologies they are like religion

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:26 am
fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.
Because they all think they're right and everyone else is wrong, while in reality they're usually both equally wrong.

I tried that "unite the left" thing for a while, trust me, it doesn't work.

Marxists are like cats, they are very solitary beings, they like being alone and thinking they're right while everyone else is wrong.

[R_P_A_S]

im just saying we all looking like assholes.
shit is going down in the world and we dont really have a voice or an army or nothing. theres no channel that broadcast our demands. theres is no main stream anything influential force that expresses our concerns or nothing.. im just fucking tired of watching all these damn capitalist and liberals on TV acting like they are different...

[Herman]

And an other thing. all this leftist organizations that some of you are a part of and some are not.
Well it just confuses me because lots of people also bash them. I don't even know what my stance is. I think its pretty basic.. Pro Socialism, anti Capitalism. but there are all this fucking rules and theories and believes and bla bla bla. that I get confused and I don"t even know what to join. who to side with and who is full of shit....

I felt the same way once. You should remember that all those 'theories' and 'rules' aren't strict unchangeable ideas that last forever.

What I did was to learn little by little classical marxism. I took books like "introduction to marxism", which had pictures and summed up pretty well what marx said. I also would visit lots of websites to check the articles they would upload.

I wouldn't declare myself a "marxist-leninist-anarchist-otherist" at all, but if you feel that you want to belong somewhere, you should talk with people from different political parties, either face to face or by email. I remember talking to a member of the bolivarian circle here in The Netherlands... and never have I felt so right about my beliefs. When I talked to her with things that we agreed on (and we mostly agreed on everything), it felt so correct and proper to believe in socialism.

All the liberalism and disillusionment that rains on me daily whenever I go to university kills me...

[SpikeyRed]

R_P_A_S I also suggest joining a group in your area\city\town that you feel comfortable with and who you think are doing really good things for building struggle and class conciousness and generally heading in the right direction.

I'm a pretty young socialist, and here in my city, there were 3 socialist groups running around. I didn't really identify with Anarchism that much, because I became really radicalized through Marx.
So what I did was, too just kinda, read around on the three groups sites, do a little bit of research on them, talk too them when I saw 'em on the streets and stuff.
The group that I ended up becoming a part of, were friendly but persistent. I went too one of their meetings, and had a chat after it too one of the organisers. He took my number, rang me up a few days later and we had a coffee and a chat. He told me about the general aims of the party and the way it conducts it's work, what it did etc, and it just sounded like they were doing good concrete things too move in the left direction. I didn't know all their theory or their positions too start with, I was barely aware they were 'Trotskyist'. Since joining I've learnt more stuff from their perspective (While keeping my eyes and ears open to others on the left) and been able to participate in and influence some really concrete on the ground stuff.

Point is - Go and check out your local lefties, see who you feel comfortable with, hang around them for a bit, and then take it from there. Remember you're never locked into anything, if a party or collective or whatever turns out too be shit, quit and try again :-)

Good luck Comrade!

[blackstone]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+October 12, 2007 06:26 am--> (R_P_A_S @ October 12, 2007 06:26 am)
[email protected] 11, 2007 10:45 pm
I think the perfect ideology for you is individualistic Anarchism!
fuck ideologies they are like religion [/b]
I agree fuck ideologies.

Dick Dastardly says get involved in your community especially with anyone doing anything positive in your area. And i agree. Especially if you have the time and energy, which it seems you have. Social actions and programs, won't necessarily bring forth revolution but are a vital tool in my opinion, as well as others.

"During a flood the raft is a life-saving device, but it is only a means of getting to higher ground. So too, with survival programs, which are emergency services, in themselves they do not change social conditions, but they are life-saving vehicles until conditions change." Minister Huey P. Newton

[Bilan]

RPAS (fuck underscores hehe :P ), I know how you feel!
But the best thing I can possibly suggest is start organizing.
Do you have a job? Organize there.
You go to school: discuss things, organize some sort of "club" (can't think of a better word right now, it's midnight) at your school to discuss revolutionary ideas.

And join a local organization - such as the Socialist Party (if that's what it's called there...), or if they don't exist - or a shitty reformist twats - organize your own.
It's all possible, you just have to take the initiative and do it!

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 06:26 am
fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.
Popular Front?

[RGacky3]

From my limited experience, whenever worker actions goes down (a strike or whatever), or a protest, generally people unite around the issue at hand anyway and leave ideology behind, of coarse when ideology clashes they don't unite. But in my limited experience of worker actions ideology has never been an issue, just beat the boss :P.



I think the perfect ideology for you is individualistic Anarchism!

I love this, as if people are shopping around for ideologies :P, like clothes. "Oh Individualistic Anarchism fits you perfectly, but you gotta get the Eco-Anarchism to match, you look sooo good in Vanguardism, it totally fits your shape."

The best place to start is the workplace with the Union (I'm gonna say the IWW), because thats your bread and butter and beans and rice or class struggle, that class struggle in its rawest form, without the metaphor of politics. Direct worker action.

At the moment I work in a small engineering office as a draftsman, hard to organize, but I do what I can whenever and issue comes up, I'm a union guy, and I agitate, I've helped friends and coworkers organize and stand up to the bosses, its not about creating and huge front against the United States or the entire Capitalist system, its about everyday class struggle, you don't need to think so big :), just my 2 cents.

Let me put it this way, mass organizations like a Big Union, or federatrion of Unions, or a Socialst Party is the big picture, Usually the most you can do is just support them, for me, the IWW is the big picture, and thats usually what people focus on, but just, if not more, importantly are the small day to day workplace class struggles, for more worker control over conditions, for pay, for solidarity or whatever, thats what you wanna focus on, the big picture is important, but its made up of a bunch of little pictures.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 07:40 am
im just saying we all looking like assholes.
shit is going down in the world and we dont really have a voice or an army or nothing. theres no channel that broadcast our demands. theres is no main stream anything influential force that expresses our concerns or nothing.. im just fucking tired of watching all these damn capitalist and liberals on TV acting like they are different...
"The revolution will not be televised."

We certainly don't have any voices representing us on the major media outlets, but the Internet has allowed us to express our opinions to a much larger audience.

I think you'll find we're more united than the capitalists. RevLeft is a medium for us to express our beliefs, but when the revolution comes those on the Left who would put sectarianism before the elimination of capitalism would be outcasts.

[Tatarin]

Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?

[RNK]

fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.

Because some are too weak-minded to be able to see past the bullshit that's been implanted in them. Trotskyites, for example, are probably the most sectarian and divisive group of people ever. Their general acceptance into the revolutionary community is probably the biggest hindrance we face today.

[Faux Real]

I agree with you on the fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.
I agree with you 100% comrade.

We need a unified, non-sectarian revolutionary movement (sadly the sectarianism and general dislike of comrades here based on their &#39;ideologies&#39; goes into a snowball effect and doesn&#39;t seem to ever stop <_< ).

All the bickering, factionalism, and segregation in the +socialist* left has played into the hands of those in power, i.e. divide and conquer...or has at least marginalized us.
Bickering about what ideology is best is meaningless when the large amount of the population that need to be liberated by themselves has no idea what any of those are. In addition, being that they need to liberate themselves it&#39;s not fair of us to tell them "so-and-so-ideology is the right choice", rather, we should educate on each and present it in a way so that they make the choice or no choice without external pressure. Maybe even through example.

Don&#39;t get me wrong, we should be critical of others and self-critical, but outright attacking people because they don&#39;t believe the exact same stuff as you is not very communist/anarchist/whatever-fits-your-mold IMO.

Until the conditions are set where the populace sees the harm being done to them there isn&#39;t that much to gain the necessary support to overthrow capitalism, but an already established popular front like ANSWER would be key IMO. Not even a vanguard, but more of an organizational protesting tool where people of all different backgrounds can meet, greet and organize.

theres no channel that broadcast our demands. theres is no main stream anything influential force that expresses our concerns or nothing..
There&#39;s KPFK 90.7 FM in LA, bro. It may be only one station but it fits well with your agenda.

In closing, this will require some patience RPAS. It&#39;s been what, 150 years since scientific communism has come into public thought. It took capitalism almost a millennium. It won&#39;t take the same amount of time, but while we wait for the social conditions to present themselves as an opportunity for revolutionary movements it&#39;s best to do what you feel can most help the general public.

(*+socialist = encompassing all post-capitalist, revolutionary worker ideologies)

[RGacky3]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 10:42 pm
Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?
Not just Capitalism, but all types of Oppression and Domination. Sooo ... Theres a problem, I see Stalinism and Leninism as a different type of Oppression and Domination.

[Tatarin]

Not just Capitalism, but all types of Oppression and Domination. Sooo ... Theres a problem, I see Stalinism and Leninism as a different type of Oppression and Domination.

Stalinism and Leninism are both also looking for the end of capitalism. The people will decide after the revolution which one is their form of system.

[Enragé]

Join the group which is the least pre-occupied with *****ing at other groups and the most with reaching out to the rest of the world
(oh and make sure they&#39;re not dogmatic nutcases :lol: but that usually goes hand in hand with above)

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 09:35 pm
I love this, as if people are shopping around for ideologies :P, like clothes. "Oh Individualistic Anarchism fits you perfectly, but you gotta get the Eco-Anarchism to match, you look sooo good in Vanguardism, it totally fits your shape."
Yeah, it&#39;s amazing. I guess to some people, it&#39;s more about "being a part of something" than anything else.

Anyway, I think a lot of words are being said in this thread, but so little at the same time. I sense a lot of cynism from some people. Of course it&#39;s fucked up that many leftist organizations are more concerned with giving each other shit. But in practice, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s very consequential on the struggle. Dogmatic denunciations in party papers or on the internet always look more important than they really are. I&#39;d suggest paying less attention to that, and more to the actual struggle going on.

It&#39;s very easy to abstain from the struggle entirely because of excuses like "No movement is perfect for me" or "All the organizations are too busy quarreling" or "I won&#39;t support anything but a united revolutionary left" or "Fuck all ideologies". But in 9 out of 10 cases, that&#39;s just a cop-out. I mostly agree with what RGacky said about joining a union, or NKOS&#39;s post above.

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 11:54 pm
Because some are too weak-minded to be able to see past the bullshit that&#39;s been implanted in them. Trotskyites, for example, are probably the most sectarian and divisive group of people ever. Their general acceptance into the revolutionary community is probably the biggest hindrance we face today.
And that&#39;s not sectarian bullshit at all. :rolleyes:

[вор в законе]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 10:42 pm
Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?
So is the goal of Feudalists, Monarchists and religious fanatics e.g. Talibans. That doesn&#39;t mean we are going to work with them.

[Enragé]

Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?

... and to replace it with communism, classless, stateless, free and equal society.

and that isnt the goal of fuedalists etc

[R_P_A_S]

keep in mind guys that being a 26 year old guy drown in debt and always looking for work and with the pressure of taking care of my parents in the future.. i feel my options are limited and that I dont have much time or resources. its very frustrating watching the world go by and YOu can&#39;t do shit about it.

but im not giving up. never. I&#39;m reading all you guys are saying and Im taking many things into account.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 06:22 pm

Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?

... and to replace it with communism, classless, stateless, free and equal society.

and that isnt the goal of fuedalists etc
are you implying that there are still "feudalists" in any meaningful way?

[spartan]

SovietPants:
are you implying that there are still "feudalists" in any meaningful way?
The Taliban for one.

[RedStaredRevolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 02:53 pm
keep in mind guys that being a 26 year old guy drown in debt and always looking for work and with the pressure of taking care of my parents in the future.. i feel my options are limited and that I dont have much time or resources. its very frustrating watching the world go by and YOu can&#39;t do shit about it.

but im not giving up. never. I&#39;m reading all you guys are saying and Im taking many things into account.
I dont know if you would have the resources to do this but if your having trouble finding a organization why not start your own. Most organizatiosn end up getting dragged down into sectarianism because of differences in theory but if you start your own group and focus more on working with the community rather than focusing on political ideologies mabye you could come up with something you really enjoy and something that helps out a lot.

just a thought.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by SovietPants+October 12, 2007 04:40 pm--> (SovietPants @ October 12, 2007 04:40 pm)
[email protected] 12, 2007 06:26 am
fuck this man. fuck theories and fuck all this ism bullshit. why cant we just work together.
Popular Front? [/b]
Nothing good has ever come from uniting with and essentially handing power over to the "progressive" bourgeoisie.

History has shown that an organization with the correct ideas, method, practice, etc. will inevitably find itself pitted against all kinds of tendencies within the left. The role of such a tendency is consolidate more members and reach out to the working class to increase in strength. Over time, the other tendencies will be exposed and more will flock over to the tendency that does have the correct ideas, practice, methods, etc. The construction of such a tendency is slow, painstaking work that can literally take decades.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by SovietPants+October 13, 2007 09:10 pm--> (SovietPants @ October 13, 2007 09:10 pm)
[email protected] 13, 2007 06:22 pm

Our goal should be to eliminate capitalism - wheter we are stalinists or anarchists... right?

... and to replace it with communism, classless, stateless, free and equal society.

and that isnt the goal of fuedalists etc
are you implying that there are still "feudalists" in any meaningful way? [/b]
i wasnt, somebody else was.

[mannetje]

[QUOTE = R_P_A_S; 997959] Overal waar ik lees, ik kijk en uitvoeren om er actuele gebeurtenissen nuttigen van de werkende klasse. En ik heb het gevoel dat ik kan helpen. Ik voel ik kan iemand leren, te stimuleren en te organiseren. Het is als 'Ik weet wat het probleem is guys! En kunnen we fix it! " maar het is zo overweldigend. Elke dag de wereld verandert en de tijd, ik voel is niet mijn vriend.

Ik wil meer betrokken worden bij aansluiten bij een organisatie iets meer dan alleen maar kritiek op het kapitalisme en leren. Leren en opleiden van mijn zelf is belangrijk en ik zal altijd doen. Maar ik wil mijn woorden in ACTIE! Ik heb niet het gevoel dat draden, essays, blogs, uitdelen van folders, of zelfs naar enkele sentimentele rant liberale hoek van de straat protest genoeg of zelfs progressief. maybe im just afgemat? = / But i sure as hell ben wanhopig en een beetje buitengesloten. [/ QUOTE] I really feel like an outcast where I live. In holland rightwing parties get more and more voters. and I almost everyone in my environment is a biblefreak. and they vote for the rightwing christian parties who are number one in the netherlands. I live in a small community and there are a lot of churches in this small town. and here in the country side it isn't very multicultural like it is in the western region of holland. many people feel (excuse me if I spell this wrong my english isn't perfect) threatened (i think i spelled it right) by the muslim immigrants they really think that the muslims are taking over the west. so they vote for the party for freedom (in dutch: partij voor de vrijheid. the pvv) and that party is really racistic against muslims. I don't look strange up if the party-leader Geert Wilders is gonna be executed one of these days. I won't miss that monsterous person.