Does anybody in the bourgeois opposition genuinely

[Cheung Mo]

It has already been established that MAS, Banderas Rojas, and AD are reactionary organisations...Oops...I guess that's all the "leftist" forces in the opposition.

[Eleftherios]

Replying to Does anybody in the bourgeois opposition genuinely, oppose Chavez from the left?

By definition, no. There are, however, some wannabe revolutionaries who oppose him from the left.

[RNK]

*runs by*

There's one now!

[metalero]

not really. MAS are social-democrats, but act like liberals, leaving aside AD which is not even worth mentioning. Bandera Roja, are some nuts with revolutionary rethoric; they are the burgeois attack front and guarimberos of the opposition.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

In the bourgeois opposition? No. In Venezuela? Yes.

[Lenin II]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 09, 2007 02:16 am
In the bourgeois opposition? No. In Venezuela? Yes.
There are those in Venezuela who oppose him, mostly because capital still rules and he runs oil shipments to the US. But the fact is that he is an inspirational anti-imperialist and a step in the right direction for Latin America. He has been jailed for his beliefs and democratically elected by a popular uprising in the nation. Venezuela and Cuba both share in the struggle for the new economic order that brings justice to all peoples.

[Mkultra]

I love Chavez and especially how he liberated all of Latin America--well most of it

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I love Chavez and especially how he liberated all of Latin America--well most of it
What have you been smoking? :huh:

Luís Henrique

[Tatarin]

At least Chavez is one of the few standing up for both ordinary Venezuelans, and as a "light in the dark" in Latin America, generaly.

I hope, though, the progress expands beyond European social-democracy...

[RNK]

Wow, this is bullshit, I just spent 30 minutes writing a fucking reply and this fucking SQL forum bullshit fucks out on me when I click "Add Reply" AND IT'S ALL FUCKING GONE.

Come on guys, get this fucking shit together! Fuck...


At least Chavez is one of the few standing up for both ordinary Venezuelans, and as a "light in the dark" in Latin America, generaly.

Confusing the fact that he is simply the most visible progressive figure in that area with being the only one standing up for ordinary Venezuelans is not a correct Marxist position. There are plenty of people standing up for Venezuelans and Latin America, some far more than Chavez.

I mean, come on. The guy talks about worker's power but actually does very little to enforce it (and, infact, as I've brought up elsewhere, his federal government is reponsible for stiffling worker's authority in some instances), he stands up at the UN and calls Bush the devil and accurately identifies the US as an imperialist nation, and suddenly he's the fucking cream of the crop.

Personally, I think a lot of this unconditional support for Chavez is a bit of passive oppurtunism; there are plenty of groups and individuals all over the world who've done far more and sacraficed far more than running for elections, being arrested for two days and otherwise having very comfortable power. But it's easier to support Chavez; he's fairly non-violent, he hasn't yet used violence against the capitalist state apparatus and his actions as yet have been rather benign (which in and of itself begs questions why Marxists are so extremely supportive of him). Contrast this with comrades in the Philippines, Nepal, Columbia, and elsewhere, who are engaged in actual violent conflict against their bourgeois opponents and who are universally being declared terrorists by the international community, the international media and politicians worldwide. It'd be far more difficult to "sell" them as people we should be supporting than some teddybear-like politician.

I'm almost finished Lenin's State And Revolution after two days of reading and a lot of his warnings and accusations of the corruption of Marxism at the hands of the Social Democrats of the time remind me of what's going on in Venezuela. That's not to say that I'm against Chavez. But I'm not a cheerleader. He talks the talk (actually, not much of it) but he doesn't really walk the walk of a Marxist. What has he said about the abolition of the state? The appropriation and destruction of the machinery of the bourgeois state? Of the establishment of worker's control via worker's councils, communes, constituent assemblies and free direct democracy? Where is this revolution? What, he gets the government to buy out a handful of companies, gives workers half share, and suddenly he's the next Marxist visionary? Give credit where it's due, guys. Yes, he's progressive, yes, he's a step in the right direction. But unless we see some real action, some real revolutionary action from him, I don't think he is the solution. A temporary fix, maybe... but whose? Will he turn out to be a temporary fix for the bourgeois, pacifying workers temporarily with the illusion of freedom? Or a temporary fix for the workers, to give some relief from the massive exploitation they face?

Time will tell. But for the time being, I don't think people should be going around bragging that "we were the first ones to recognize the Bolivarian Revolution as a true communist revolution", nor trying to stir up a propaganda storm by accusing all critics and opponents of Chavez as being "petty-bourgeois faux-left class traitors" or whatever.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

A key understanding of communists is that workers cannot simply take control of the capitalist state and use it for their own ends... really basic stuff.

On the other hand, we do need to defend Venezuela from the imperialists, who seek to overturn the processes unfolding there (mainly because it is creating openings, which some working people are actually taking advantage of -- but also because even talk of socialism still haunts the bourgeoisie as it did when Marx wrote the Manifesto).

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 04:28 am
Wow, this is bullshit, I just spent 30 minutes writing a fucking reply and this fucking SQL forum bullshit fucks out on me when I click "Add Reply" AND IT'S ALL FUCKING GONE.

Come on guys, get this fucking shit together! Fuck...
I had that happen to me a couple times so I started copying my post before hitting reply just to be sure.

As for the topic, I agree with CDL, Chavez did not lead a revolutionary struggle, he led a reformist struggle working within the capitalist state, and as any Marxist should know, there are strict limits as to what you can do from within that structure.

[Sam_b]

especially how he liberated all of Latin America--well most of it

LOL LOL ROFL

[Mkultra]

Originally posted by Luís Henrique+October 11, 2007 12:13 am--> (Luís Henrique @ October 11, 2007 12:13 am)
[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I love Chavez and especially how he liberated all of Latin America--well most of it
What have you been smoking? :huh:

Luís Henrique [/b]
the news

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Mkultra+October 11, 2007 09:23 pm--> (Mkultra @ October 11, 2007 09:23 pm)
Originally posted by Luís [email protected] 11, 2007 12:13 am

[email protected] 10, 2007 09:51 pm
I love Chavez and especially how he liberated all of Latin America--well most of it
What have you been smoking? :huh:

Luís Henrique
the news [/b]
Since Brazil is practically half of Latin America, and Chavez hasn't already "liberated" Brazil, I think you are reading too much into the news.

I would also point that Colombia, Peru, Chile, Mexico, and Argentina seem far from liberated, but as my news from these places are second hand, it is possible that I am wrong.

Luís Henrique

[settlefornothin]

The best opposition to Chavez comes from Anarchist movements in Venezuela, as they say "Ni Bush, Ni Chavez." And I agree with them, although I like some of the decisions Chavez has made, that fact that someone is making decisions for anyone else is wrong.

[Mkultra]

well Mexico woulda been liberated if Bush didnt subvert its election to put that corporate stooge in power

[settlefornothin]

Liberation can never come by way of the ballot

[Mkultra]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 12:54 am
Liberation can never come by way of the ballot
well it doesnt come from one thing alone thats why EVERYTHING must be Liberated--even the ballot

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11, 2007 07:28 pm
The best opposition to Chavez comes from Anarchist movements in Venezuela, as they say "Ni Bush, Ni Chavez." And I agree with them, although I like some of the decisions Chavez has made, that fact that someone is making decisions for anyone else is wrong.
and the fact that you don't agree with some of chavez decisions doesn't mean you adopt an indifferent attitud between a confrontation of Chavez reformist policies and Bush imperialist agenda.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 12:43 am
well Mexico woulda been liberated if Bush didnt subvert its election to put that corporate stooge in power
1. Mexico wouldn't be liberated if the PRD won the elections;

2. If the PRD won the elections, the elections would have been won by... the PRD, and not by Chávez.

Luís Henrique