The International Brigades

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I heard about these socialist volunteer forces that fought in the spanish civil war, and wondered if anyone knows anything about them aside from what I can find on the wikipedia article?

Thanks in advance.

[Random Precision]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPinternational.htm

The International Brigades were organized by the Communist Parties in various countries by the approval of Stalin, although not all those who volunteered were communists. They certainly brought with them a more organized way of resisting Franco than the native Spaniards had been able to offer, however this came at the expense of destroying the autonomous militia system and replacing it with a centralized military run mainly by Communists. While I think that most of the people in them had good intentions, they were used as a way to solidify Communist control over the Republic, not just for fighting Franco.

[which doctor]

http://www.alba-valb.org/

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:11 pm
I heard about these socialist volunteer forces that fought in the spanish civil war, and wondered if anyone knows anything about them aside from what I can find on the wikipedia article?

Thanks in advance.
I believe the CNT refused to accept foriegn volonteers? But there were many Anarchist Internationals in the war. Here is an interesting letter from an American Anarchist who fought in the Durruti Collumn over on Libcom (http://libcom.org/library/soldier-returns-letter-durruti-column-american-fighter)

There is a monument to various working people who left to fight in the international brigades, from my home town, and never made it back. It's between the council offices and the police station :lol: .

[RNK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:19 pm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPinternational.htm

The International Brigades were organized by the Communist Parties in various countries by the approval of Stalin, although not all those who volunteered were communists. They certainly brought with them a more organized way of resisting Franco than the native Spaniards had been able to offer, however this came at the expense of destroying the autonomous militia system and replacing it with a centralized military run mainly by Communists. While I think that most of the people in them had good intentions, they were used as a way to solidify Communist control over the Republic, not just for fighting Franco.
You can call it "revolutionary darwinism". The anarchist mode of struggle was simply outdated and ineffectual, atleast compared to the communist strategy, as you point out. Why one should shed a tear over the replacement of a shit strategy by a more effective one, I will never understand.

But of course it's all Puppet-Master Stalin's fault. I hear that every failed worker's uprising since 1925 was due to Stalin sabotaging it. Palpatine would be envious. :rolleyes:

Now if we can stop relying on blaming clairvoyant boogymen for everything wrong with the world...

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by RNK+October 06, 2007 05:16 am--> (RNK @ October 06, 2007 05:16 am)
[email protected] 05, 2007 08:19 pm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPinternational.htm

The International Brigades were organized by the Communist Parties in various countries by the approval of Stalin, although not all those who volunteered were communists. They certainly brought with them a more organized way of resisting Franco than the native Spaniards had been able to offer, however this came at the expense of destroying the autonomous militia system and replacing it with a centralized military run mainly by Communists. While I think that most of the people in them had good intentions, they were used as a way to solidify Communist control over the Republic, not just for fighting Franco.
You can call it "revolutionary darwinism". The anarchist mode of struggle was simply outdated and ineffectual, atleast compared to the communist strategy, as you point out. Why one should shed a tear over the replacement of a shit strategy by a more effective one, I will never understand.

But of course it's all Puppet-Master Stalin's fault. I hear that every failed worker's uprising since 1925 was due to Stalin sabotaging it. Palpatine would be envious. :rolleyes:

Now if we can stop relying on blaming clairvoyant boogymen for everything wrong with the world... [/b]
If liberation was solely about "efficiency" then why not choose fascism over anything else? You know, they are huge fans of discipline, order and they are pretty efficient in some aspects!

the Spanish Communist Party was a reactionary organization that had mostly as a base the middle classes. In fact, it was a pretty marginal organization, compared to the anarchists and socialists, until they were pumped resources from the USSR.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by RNK+October 06, 2007 05:16 am--> (RNK @ October 06, 2007 05:16 am)
[email protected] 05, 2007 08:19 pm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPinternational.htm

The International Brigades were organized by the Communist Parties in various countries by the approval of Stalin, although not all those who volunteered were communists. They certainly brought with them a more organized way of resisting Franco than the native Spaniards had been able to offer, however this came at the expense of destroying the autonomous militia system and replacing it with a centralized military run mainly by Communists. While I think that most of the people in them had good intentions, they were used as a way to solidify Communist control over the Republic, not just for fighting Franco.
You can call it "revolutionary darwinism". The anarchist mode of struggle was simply outdated and ineffectual, atleast compared to the communist strategy, as you point out. Why one should shed a tear over the replacement of a shit strategy by a more effective one, I will never understand.

But of course it's all Puppet-Master Stalin's fault. I hear that every failed worker's uprising since 1925 was due to Stalin sabotaging it. Palpatine would be envious. :rolleyes:

Now if we can stop relying on blaming clairvoyant boogymen for everything wrong with the world... [/b]
I wuold love to kick your miserable little stooley ass..

Mindless drones like you are what give leftists such a bad name.

Tow the party line a little tighter you knuckel head :lol:

[Random Precision]

You can call it "revolutionary darwinism". The anarchist mode of struggle was simply outdated and ineffectual, atleast compared to the communist strategy, as you point out. Why one should shed a tear over the replacement of a shit strategy by a more effective one, I will never understand.

That would be a good point if the Communists had been interested in revolution. They clearly were not.


But of course it's all Puppet-Master Stalin's fault. I hear that every failed worker's uprising since 1925 was due to Stalin sabotaging it. Palpatine would be envious. :rolleyes:

Well, yeah. One of the greatest fears of the Moscow bureaucrats who controlled the Comintern was that there would emerge another country that could lead the worldwide socialist struggle. Thus, they were willing to sabotage revolutions in China, as you would know, Spain, and elsewhere. The Spanish Revolution's demise was also useful to the USSR as it was moving closer to Britain and France, imperialist powers who would not want a revolution right on their doorstep.


Now if we can stop relying on blaming clairvoyant boogymen for everything wrong with the world...

I find this especially funny coming from a Maoist.

[syndicat]

catbert:
Well, yeah. One of the greatest fears of the Moscow bureaucrats who controlled the Comintern was that there would emerge another country that could lead the worldwide socialist struggle. Thus, they were willing to sabotage revolutions in China, as you would know, Spain, and elsewhere. The Spanish Revolution's demise was also useful to the USSR as it was moving closer to Britain and France, imperialist powers who would not want a revolution right on their doorstep.

I think you are wrong when you say the Communists wanted no revolution. Rather, they had a stagist conception of revolution. At the meeting of the Communist International in July 1936 Dimitrov said that they shouldn't try to introduce socialist elements "at this stage". Moreover, in 1938 the UGT, which was heavily influenced, if not controlled by the Communists at that point, proposed a program for complete nationalization of the Spanish economy. And the Hitler-Stalin pact doesn't suggest a strong commitment to an alliance with France and Britain, which was an unrealistic strategy from the beginning anyway.

Moreover, the Communists didn't conceive of the revolution in terms of the workers taking over and managing things. Their conception of "socialism" was of a single-party-run state and state managment of the economy. Their practice of recruiting from the middle strata fits in with this aim of creating a new dominating class of managers and professionals presiding over a bureaucratic, hierarchical economy. Of course they didn't speak of creating a new dominating class but of "proletarian revolution" but their conception of proletarian power was in terms of the power of the party that "represented" their interests.

If they'd been successful they would have created another bureaucratic class regime in Europe, closely aligned with them. This would have been a revolution, but not a workers revolution, because the working class would have remained a subordinated and exploited class.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

LOL, just from the bickering in this thread, no wonder we lost!

I also was wondering if the imperialists invaded/staged a coup in venezuela then what would be the chances of a second international brigades?

[catch]

Originally posted by William Everard+October 05, 2007 09:11 pm--> (William Everard @ October 05, 2007 09:11 pm)
[email protected] 05, 2007 08:11 pm
I heard about these socialist volunteer forces that fought in the spanish civil war, and wondered if anyone knows anything about them aside from what I can find on the wikipedia article?

Thanks in advance.
I believe the CNT refused to accept foriegn volonteers? [/b]
The CNT was short of arms, so they wanted money/weapons rather than volunteers.

As to the International Brigades - yes a lot of sincere people joined them, but they were entirely a tool of the Communists, were sent on suicide missions to bolster their political situation rather than for any kind of military gains - which obviously led to them not being very effective a lot of the time. Anthony Beevor covers the military side of it all pretty well.

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:02 pm
I think you are wrong when you say the Communists wanted no revolution. Rather, they had a stagist conception of revolution. At the meeting of the Communist International in July 1936 Dimitrov said that they shouldn't try to introduce socialist elements "at this stage". Moreover, in 1938 the UGT, which was heavily influenced, if not controlled by the Communists at that point, proposed a program for complete nationalization of the Spanish economy. And the Hitler-Stalin pact doesn't suggest a strong commitment to an alliance with France and Britain, which was an unrealistic strategy from the beginning anyway.

Moreover, the Communists didn't conceive of the revolution in terms of the workers taking over and managing things. Their conception of "socialism" was of a single-party-run state and state managment of the economy. Their practice of recruiting from the middle strata fits in with this aim of creating a new dominating class of managers and professionals presiding over a bureaucratic, hierarchical economy. Of course they didn't speak of creating a new dominating class but of "proletarian revolution" but their conception of proletarian power was in terms of the power of the party that "represented" their interests.

If they'd been successful they would have created another bureaucratic class regime in Europe, closely aligned with them. This would have been a revolution, but not a workers revolution, because the working class would have remained a subordinated and exploited class.
That's more or less what I meant, sorry for any confusion. If there was to be a revolution in Spain, it was to be under the firm control of the Moscow bureaucracy and would have a result very similar to Stalinist Russia.

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:04 pm
LOL, just from the bickering in this thread, no wonder we lost!

I also was wondering if the imperialists invaded/staged a coup in venezuela then what would be the chances of a second international brigades?
Slim to none, as the International Brigades were only possible through the strong organization of the Communist Parties in Western countries during the thirties. There is no similar mass party on the Left today, which is perhaps for the better. There might be a few volunteers, but nothing on the same level of strength and organization.

[rebelworker]

There where actually lots of anarchist volenteers who fought in Spain, especially from France.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by rebelworker+October 06, 2007 03:08 pm--> (rebelworker @ October 06, 2007 03:08 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 05:16 am

[email protected] 05, 2007 08:19 pm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPinternational.htm

The International Brigades were organized by the Communist Parties in various countries by the approval of Stalin, although not all those who volunteered were communists. They certainly brought with them a more organized way of resisting Franco than the native Spaniards had been able to offer, however this came at the expense of destroying the autonomous militia system and replacing it with a centralized military run mainly by Communists. While I think that most of the people in them had good intentions, they were used as a way to solidify Communist control over the Republic, not just for fighting Franco.
You can call it "revolutionary darwinism". The anarchist mode of struggle was simply outdated and ineffectual, atleast compared to the communist strategy, as you point out. Why one should shed a tear over the replacement of a shit strategy by a more effective one, I will never understand.

But of course it's all Puppet-Master Stalin's fault. I hear that every failed worker's uprising since 1925 was due to Stalin sabotaging it. Palpatine would be envious. :rolleyes:

Now if we can stop relying on blaming clairvoyant boogymen for everything wrong with the world...
I wuold love to kick your miserable little stooley ass..

Mindless drones like you are what give leftists such a bad name.

Tow the party line a little tighter you knuckel head :lol: [/b]
I would like to apologise for this post, although I agree with the sentiment the threats of violence were uncalled for. There is no threat of Stainist or thier ilk taking power any time soon , so no need to kick their asses...

...also not sure why i havnt received a warning for this one...?

[La Comédie Noire]

You should read "For Whom The Bell Tolls." by Ernest Hemingway. It really puts a human face on the Brigades.

[rebelworker]

You should also listen to "For whom the bell tolls" by Metalica, It puts a real human face on kick ass metal!

[Springmeester]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16, 2007 08:04 pm
You should also listen to "For whom the bell tolls" by Metalica, It puts a real human face on kick ass metal!
haha :lol: that's great man & Hemmingway agrees. :D