When it comes down to it....

[AGITprop]

I have decided that i don't take any standing when it comes to the line between communism and anarchism. I am a friend and supporter of the left and i believe that both ideologies are the true path to liberation, enlightenment and freedom. What my question really is though is this.

If there is a revolution, the one we strive for, how will it be decided whether the Marxists will have their transitionnary stage or if the anarchists will oppose this and want complete abolition of the state immediately. At this point, will we not be forced to oppose each other? I know compromises can be made, but it is my utmost wish that we never have to break off and drift apart because of this difference in approach to the situation.

What do you all think?

I'd like to hear from communists and anarchists.

[spartan]

Ender:
If there is a revolution, the one we strive for, how will it be decided whether the Marxists will have their transitionnary stage or if the anarchists will oppose this and want complete abolition of the state immediately.
I suppose that we could give the Proletariat a Plebiscite/Referendum to decide what they themselves want? (Of course Capitalism will be left out as an option on the voting slip :D ) As the Proletariat and a classless society are what we are all (Whether you be Anarchist or Communist) ultimately want and fight for in the end.

The trouble like you point out is how do we get to this perfect society of ours that we all crave (Anarchist and Communist alike) but disagree on how to get their?

If the Plebiscite fails then i guess there will only be one thing left for us Libertarians and Authoritarians to do and that is to fight it out and let the best ideology win.

Having said all that though i dont actually think that it will come to blows and that there will be a clash of intrest or diverging views on how to achieve our goal as you said that this revolution would be a worldwide revolution which will kill of Capitalism. If that is the case then the Authoritarians cannot argue for the implementation of Socialism as a transitionary stage as we will already be past that transitionary stage! Especially if this is a global revolution which has already overthrown Capitalism and the Bourgeoisie. Socialism simply wont be needed by then!

[Schrödinger's Cat]

(Of course Capitalism will be left out as an option on the voting slip )

Why?

If the people vote for capitalism, it's their decision. You can't force a system unto people and expect it to be a people's revolution.

[KC]

If there is a revolution, the one we strive for, how will it be decided whether the Marxists will have their transitionnary stage or if the anarchists will oppose this and want complete abolition of the state immediately.

During a revolutionary transition of society from capitalism to communism the immediate tasks of the proletariat will be decided upon and the theory in general will not be primarily considered. In other words, it goes completely against Marxist theory to attempt to adjust reality to fit it; the entire krux of Marxist theory is that it is developed from real historical circumstances, both past and present, and evolves based on those circumstances.

Using Marxist theory as an outline of what generally would happen, this transition period from capitalism to communism would be decided based on the historical circumstances in place. In other words, the state is a tool of class oppression that would be used by the proletariat in order to complete its task of moving towards communism; to what extent and in what form the proletariat uses this tool is obviously unpredictable and dependent upon historical circumstances.

Of course, anarchists would reject the preceding paragraph, stating that they would rather the state be abolished "overnight". This is because anarchists and communists have different definitions of the word "state" which renders any discussion on the concept of the state between anarchists and communists impossible if that difference isn't recognized.


The trouble like you point out is how do we get to this perfect society of ours that we all crave (Anarchist and Communist alike) but disagree on how to get their?

Communist society is nowhere near perfect. It is not a utopia.


Why?

If the people vote for capitalism, it's their decision. You can't force a system unto people and expect it to be a people's revolution.

People don't vote for a socio-economic system. They are the result of the class struggle.

[More Fire for the People]

Ender, there’s something we gotta keep in mind when we ask these kind of questions. When we ask questions about ‘revolution’ we’re talking about real movements of people and when talk about people we always have a certain framework to work with. From our perspective, the perspective of the poor and dispossessed particularly and humans more generally, the measure of an institution is (a) the content reflects values that are harmonious with self-liberation and emancipation of the oppressed and (b) do so effectively and with a sense of tragicomic hope, love, self-respect and dignity, and optimistic skepticism.

So it’s not a question of whether or not it is anarchist or communist institutions that fulfill these criteria but which anarchist or communist institutions fulfill these criteria. The only question remains is which particular institutions of the oppressed can arise in which particular historical contexts? For some, like myself, this means in our epoch a workers’ republic but it is possible that if the historical context were to shift we could find ourselves in a situation where anarchist institutions are the most effective.

[BobKKKindle$]

I suppose that we could give the Proletariat a Plebiscite/Referendum to decide what they themselves want?

Any kind of vote presupposes the existence of a group separate from the proletariat that is able to determine the direction and development of a revolution. The characteristics and dynamics of new institutions that arise will depend on the challenges faced by the proletariat and cannot be created in such a mechanical way according to our theroretical conceptions of what is desirable.

You might want to examine the concept of 'Spontaneous Order' which is an important aspect of Anarchist analysis, if you want to gain a better idea of how problems are solved when we are not subject to the authority of those situated above us in the system of hierarchy that exists in capitalist society.

[AGITprop]

thnx..i think i am beginning to understand

[RNK]

You could look at the example of the Paris Commune and what they achieved in terms of popular authority. Essentially, the masses will decide what occurs. It will be the choice of individuals. When it comes down to it, whether you are communist or anarchist, our "job" as an organized group of revolutionaries should be to lead the fight against capitalism, against bourgeois democracy and against its state -- not dictate the form that society will adopt after this has taken place, and certainly not impose our ideals on the masses (a mistake made by many a revolution).

Necessarily, an emergency assembly will have to be produced, made up of direct representatives and members of society. It will be their job to determine which administrative functions need to be created and manned -- to determine "drudgery" like the organization of communes and councils and groups of workers and the masses, etc, as well as lay the foundation for judiciary law which will govern over the activities of these functionaries, and finally pass the decision down to the masses on who will fill these posts and pass these laws and such. From then on, we communists and anarchists might as well go home and live on with our lives as members of the new society.