IslamoPhobia

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

For those who hate muslim haters, a site for you:

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/

[blackstone]

Thanks for the link

[Anti-Zionist]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 03, 2007 08:00 pm
For those who hate muslim haters, a site for you:

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/
Cool website:) thanks:)

Many muslims i know are nothing like the media makes them out to be.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Or like they are portrayed by rather too many comrades at RevLeft!

[Devrim]

It brings up some questions about what 'Islamophobia' actually is. Those talking about Islamophobia often claim that it is racism, but many of those who are being accused of 'Islamophobia' come from exactly the same ethnic groups as the Islamicists.

Take Maryam Namazie, politburo member of the Worker-Communist Party of Iran, for example.

Now to me it seems obvious that she is not a racist. However, that doesn't mean that she hasn't been accused of it.


Originally posted by Islamophobia Watch
In her speech, comrade Namazie stated: "And don't get me started on Islamophobia. It is now even deemed racist to criticise beliefs and ideas and movements associated with them. And – silly me – all along I thought racism was aimed at individuals and groups of people not beliefs and political movements.

The WCPI in my opinion has some questionable politics, which have led it into standing alongside some very unsavoury organisations. I think though that it would be absurd to claim it was a racist organisation.

Yet, the WCPI of Iran is one of the groups consistently attacked by the site Islamophobia Watch (searching for their name gives you six pages of results). There is no doubt that there is a racist campaign in the west against those of Middle Eastern, and South East Asian origin, and that the driving engine of this campaign is creating a fear of Islam.

What these people screaming 'Islamophobe' seem to be trying to do, however, is not to defend ethnic minorities from racism, but to attack anybody who makes any criticism of Islam.

It may have escaped the attention of some of the posters on here that not all of those who have criticised Islam have subscribed to this racist campaign. It hasn't stopped accusations of Islamophobia though, and both Leo, and I have been accused of it. Do people have some strange idea that we hate Muslims as individuals?

It may have also escaped the attention of some of the posters on here, but left-wing workers in the Middle east tend to hate Islam, and everything that it stands for. Who do you want to stand alongside, the Islamicists against communist workers?

As communists we reject the racist campaign being waged in the West, but we also reject the Islamicists too. Both of them feed off each other, and neither of them have anything to offer the working class.

Devrim

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Devrim, looks like you are operating with the 'either-or' of 'commonsense' on this. :o

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 04, 2007 02:59 pm
Devrim, looks like you are operating with the 'either-or' of 'commonsense' on this. :o
I genuinely have no idea what that post means at all.

Devrim

[Comrade Rage]

Finally a group has noticed and decided to counter the rantings of far-right anti-muslim talk show host Michael 'Savage' Weiner. That was the guy who came up with the 'term' "Islamofascist".

Latest Islamophobia site enrty about the Savage Weiner (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/us-radio-host-says-women-in-burqas-are-hateful-nazis-wholl-k.html)

[Comrade J]

Oo I say! If it isn't an SWP fuckfest in here.

We've been through this, why the issue needs to be dragged up yet again for some weak, pathetic pro-Islam point is beyond me. :rolleyes:

[Devrim]

Originally posted by COMRADE CRUM+October 04, 2007 11:31 pm--> (COMRADE CRUM @ October 04, 2007 11:31 pm) Finally a group has noticed and decided to counter the rantings of far-right anti-muslim talk show host Michael 'Savage' Weiner. That was the guy who came up with the 'term' "Islamofascist".

Latest Islamophobia site enrty about the Savage Weiner (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/us-radio-host-says-women-in-burqas-are-hateful-nazis-wholl-k.html) [/b]

Islamophobia
On the July 2 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, discussing the recent terror-related arrests in Britain, radio host Michael Savage said, "When I see a woman walking around with a burqa, I see a Nazi," adding, "That's what I see – how do you like that? – a hateful Nazi who would like to cut your throat and kill your children." Savage also said that when a Muslim woman wears a burqa, "She's doing it to spit in your face. She's saying, 'You white moron, you, I'm going to kill you if I can.' " The Savage Nation reaches more than 8 million listeners each week, according to Talkers Magazine, making it the third most-listened-to talk radio show in the nation.

You can obviously see the racism coming through here.

My wife how ever walks down the street, sees a woman dressed like that, and feels frightened because she thinks that these people want to put a bag on her head too.

Is she a racist?

Devrim

[spartan]

Devrimankara:
My wife how ever walks down the street, sees a woman dressed like that, and feels frightened because she thinks that these people want to put a bag on her head too.

Is she a racist?
Of course not but just you try telling that to the pro Islamist lot on here who think that attacking an extremly authoritarian and reactionary Religion such as Islam is racist!

[Comrade Rage]

I'm NOT pro-Islamist, I am just saying that the far right is using the feelings of fear associated with muslims to further their agenda.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 05, 2007 12:05 am
I'm NOT pro-Islamist, I am just saying that the far right is using the feelings of fear associated with muslims to further their agenda.
...and, are you saying that my wife is a member of the 'far right' to have those fears?
Devrim

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Devrim:


I genuinely have no idea what that post means at all.

Well, it seemed to me you were posing two stark options: either you are a revolutionary or you are an Islamicist.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

CJ:


Oo I say! If it isn't an SWP fuckfest in here.

We've been through this, why the issue needs to be dragged up yet again for some weak, pathetic pro-Islam point is beyond me.

What is your problem?

There is nothing 'pro-Islam' in this thread; only anti-hate merchants,

That you should have to be told this says more about you than I can.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spartan:


Of course not but just you try telling that to the pro Islamist lot on here who think that attacking an extremly authoritarian and reactionary Religion such as Islam is racist!

Once more, there is nothing pro-Islam here.

But there is much that exposes your vile islamophobia.

I would like you now to prove that Islam is racist. If you can't, you should withdraw that slur.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 12:36 am
Well, it seemed to me you were posing two stark options: either you are a revolutionary or you are an Islamicist.
It seems to me that two stark options are being posed, either you are pro-Islamicist, or you are a racist.

We think that this is not the case.

As for the idea that you are either 'a revolutionary or you are an Islamicist', this is clearly not what was suggested. One could be any number of things. Being a revolutionary, and being an Islamicist are mutually contradictory though.

Devrim

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Devrim:


My wife how ever walks down the street, sees a woman dressed like that, and feels frightened because she thinks that these people want to put a bag on her head too.

I can understand in a muslim country feeling threatened (I am assuming that you do), but even you can see the difference between an organised hate campaign (to which CC was referring) in, say, the UK, and individual feelings of insecurity (in the UK).

Islamophobia is being orchestrated in the 'west', and has been for many centuries, to justify waves of imperialism.

And you can see what a good job has been done; rather too many RevLefters have bought into it.

Talk about 'ruling ideas'...

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Devrim:


Being a revolutionary, and being an Islamicist are mutually contradictory though.

In that case, you dialecticians should embrace both.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 12:46 am
I can understand in a muslim country feeling threatened (I am assuming that you do)
Politically, I don't. Despite the talk of some of the secular 'left' in Turkey, I don't think there is any danger of Turkey turning into Iran. On a personal level, of course I can understand that many people do. From the attacks on 'immodestly dressed women' that accompanied their first election victory back in the 90s, we have seen how the Islamicists can treat people. Let's be really clear about this. Pogroms are not something that you read about in history books in this country. They are something that is well within living memory. They are carried out against religious minorities, and they are carried out by Islamicists.


but even you can see the difference between an organised hate campaign (to which CC was referring) in, say, the UK, and individual feelings of insecurity (in the UK).

Yes, I can. Read what myself, and other members of our organisation have written about anarchists being caught up in the slipstream of these campaigns. We have clearly condemned these people, if not for being racists (which we don't think they are at all), then for being carried along by the momentum of these campaigns.

We refuse to condemn those who are frightened by political Islam as racists though. Especially those in the Middle East where it is a very real threat.


Islamophobia is being orchestrated in the 'west', and has been for many centuries, to justify waves of imperialism.

And you can see what a good job has been done; rather too many RevLefters have bought into it.

Talk about 'ruling ideas'...

Again this goes along with the line that any criticism of Islam makes the speaker a racist.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 12:48 am
Devrim:


Being a revolutionary, and being an Islamicist are mutually contradictory though.

In that case, you dialecticians should embrace both.
I for one never claimed to be dialetical. Actually, I agree with Jorge Semprún on this.

Devrim

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Devrim:


I for one never claimed to be dialetical. Actually, I agree with Jorge Semprún on this.

I am glad to hear that!

However, to my eternal shame, I am not familiar with Semprún's work in this area. :(

Which books/articles does this occur in?

[I need to know, so that my own work is as thorough as I can make it.]

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Rosa Lichtenstein+October 05, 2007 05:49 am--> (Rosa Lichtenstein @ October 05, 2007 05:49 am) However, to my eternal shame, I am not familiar with Semprún's work in this area. :(

Which books/articles does this occur in?
[/b]
Not to worry, he is not a philosopher:

Originally posted by [email protected]
His family moved to France in the wake of the Spanish Civil War. He studied at the Lycée Henri IV and the Sorbonne. After the French defeat and subsequent Nazi occupation of France, Semprún joined the Communist resistance group Francs-Tireurs Partisans. In 1943 he was arrested by the Gestapo and deported to Buchenwald concentration camp.

In 1945 he returned to France and became an active member in the exiled Communist Party of Spain. He eventually joined the party's politburo until he was expelled in 1964 because of "differences regarding the party line," at which point he focused on his writing career.

He wrote many novels, plays and screenplays, for which he received several awards, including the 1997 Jerusalem Prize. A recurring theme in his writing is the denouncement of the horror of war. From 1988 to 1991 he served as the Culture Minister of Spain.

Semprún currently lives in Paris, where he is a member of the Académie Goncourt.

The opinion I refer to comes from this book:


Wiki
What a Beautiful Sunday (In French, Quel beau dimanche) another fictionalized account of life in Buchenwald and after liberation was published by Grasset in 1980. It purports to remain faithful to telling what it was like to live one day, hour by hour, in the concentration camp, but like Sempun's other novels, the narrator recounts events that precede and follow that day. In part, Semprun was inspired by A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, and the work contains a criticism of communism as well as fascism.

Gerrad (the main character, but it is also semi autobiographical, so it is Semprún speaking) is discussing the dialectical with another inmate. Gerrad is the hot shot intellectual from a bourgeois background. Ferdinand is a proletarian. He has got used to the party explain that things he doesn't understand are dialectical. Gerrad explains that the dialectic is !shit'.

The novel is well worth reading in itself though.

Devrim

[spartan]

Rosa:
I would like you now to prove that Islam is racist. If you can't, you should withdraw that slur.
:lol: You should read posts more carefully Rosa as i was'nt saying Islam is racist! Rather i was saying that people like you always label people who are against Religion (Specifically Islam as you seem to love to defend that specific Religion all the time) as Racist (Even though race and Religion are two completly different concepts).

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Apologies Spartan, but there are those here who hide behing semantics, and end up arguing like born again members of the BNP.

Devrim, thanks for that -- I'll look his novels up!

[spartan]

Rosa:
Apologies Spartan, but there are those here who hide behing semantics, and end up arguing like born again members of the BNP.
Apologies accepted.

Also i personally have no problem with Religious people it is the oppressive Religious institutions and it's hierarchies that (More often than not falsely) represent them that i have the problem with! I cant stand them as they force the people to conform to whatever there Religious leadership deems acceptable.

So if being Homosexual is deemed unacceptable by the Religious leadership well then Homosexual people will more often than not be prejudiced or even persecuted against just because of their Homosexuality! Surely you can see the reactionary oppressiveness of that?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Absolutely, but not all religions are appressive like this, and many have been at the forefront of the fight against oppression.

[Anti-Zionist]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 04, 2007 11:46 pm--> (devrimankara @ October 04, 2007 11:46 pm)
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 04, 2007 11:31 pm
Finally a group has noticed and decided to counter the rantings of far-right anti-muslim talk show host Michael 'Savage' Weiner. That was the guy who came up with the 'term' "Islamofascist".

Latest Islamophobia site enrty about the Savage Weiner (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/us-radio-host-says-women-in-burqas-are-hateful-nazis-wholl-k.html)

Islamophobia
On the July 2 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, discussing the recent terror-related arrests in Britain, radio host Michael Savage said, "When I see a woman walking around with a burqa, I see a Nazi," adding, "That's what I see – how do you like that? – a hateful Nazi who would like to cut your throat and kill your children." Savage also said that when a Muslim woman wears a burqa, "She's doing it to spit in your face. She's saying, 'You white moron, you, I'm going to kill you if I can.' " The Savage Nation reaches more than 8 million listeners each week, according to Talkers Magazine, making it the third most-listened-to talk radio show in the nation.

You can obviously see the racism coming through here.

My wife how ever walks down the street, sees a woman dressed like that, and feels frightened because she thinks that these people want to put a bag on her head too.

Is she a racist?

Devrim [/b]
A bag on her head? So you describe islamic women as having bags on their heads? Why isn't this racist banned?

[Forward Union]

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/...N=1191617483375 (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/Islamophobic%20and%20Proud%20of%20It.jpg?__SQUARES PACE_CACHEVERSION=1191617483375)

I Like the "islamophobic and proud" badges, I'd order some if the money wasnt going to scumbags who are just as bad. Or I could make my own "Religiophobic and proud" ones... :unsure:

[Anti-Zionist]

Originally posted by William [email protected] 06, 2007 11:47 am
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/...N=1191617483375 (http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/Islamophobic%20and%20Proud%20of%20It.jpg?__SQUARES PACE_CACHEVERSION=1191617483375)

I Like the "islamophobic and proud" badges, I'd order some if the money wasnt going to scumbags who are just as bad. Or I could make my own "Religiophobic and proud" ones... :unsure:
Aren't left-wingers supposed to be against prejudice and not encourage it?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Urban/WE:


I Like the "islamophobic and proud" badges, I'd order some if the money wasnt going to scumbags who are just as bad. Or I could make my own "Religiophobic and proud" ones...

This site was set up for comrades like you -- so stop whingeing! :)

Anti-Zionist: we are entirely prejudiced on the left -- against oppression and exploitation.

That is why leftists should be anti-Islamophobes, and prejudiced against those who repeat stuff one can find in BNP literature.

[spartan]

Rosa:
That is why leftists should be anti-Islamophobes, and prejudiced against those who repeat stuff one can find in BNP literature.
Just because we anti Religious leftists say things which might be perceived as similar to the BNP racists Islamophobia rhetoric this does not make us one and the same as we leftists look at this issue from the angle of hierarchy and it's oppression of Religious people whilst the racists look at it from a racial angle which they dress up as "culture" to make it more "acceptable" to ordinary people.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Spartan:


Just because we anti Religious leftists say things which are might be perceived as similar to the BNP racists Islamophobia rhetoric thit does not make us one and the same as we leftists look at it from the angle of hierarchy and it's oppression of Religious people whilst the racists look at it from a racial angle which they dress up as "culture" to make it more "acceptable" to ordinary people.

Those you are attacking will not see it that way, and so they will just switch off.

In that case, 1 billion muslims cannot be won over. Add to that the 5 billion from other religions, and the whole planet will switch off.

Is it any wonder the vast majority of human beings ignore us socialists if we are so stupid that we put our personal hatred of religion ahead of transforming the planet??

It is all so unnecessary -- religion will melt away once we have eradicated its causes, not before.

But, you will never get to do that if you put up such artificial barriers.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 06, 2007 11:44 am
A bag on her head? So you describe islamic women as having bags on their heads? Why isn't this racist banned?
Who am I being racist against here?
Devrim