Log in

View Full Version : and the world's just gonna allow this to go on?



R_P_A_S
2nd October 2007, 00:03
what are you thoughts on this guys?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7022437.stm

Faux Real
2nd October 2007, 00:13
I don't recall the last time a country was ever invaded when the ruling government carried on exterminating the citizens of it's own country. They only do when they invade other countries.

Case in point, Nazi Germany, Sadaam's Iraq, while it was dropping poison on civilian populations, Stalin's USSR, Pinochet's Chile, Peron's Argenitna, etc..

Maybe Pol Pot's Cambodia by Vietnam, but I don't remember what that affair was over.

Regardless, no reason to expect anything different here.

Comrade_Scott
2nd October 2007, 01:00
its pissy whats going on down there, not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare as my main concern is with the people. the repurcussions for this hopefull(if pointless) uprising will be harsh, and as usual the west will bawl and do nothing and the third world will watch some cussing and some saying not our issue. shame on them all

Eleftherios
2nd October 2007, 02:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 12:00 am
not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare
Why could the monks rot for all you care? I don't think you know that it is a tradition for families to send at least one of their sons to become a monk in Burma

Comrade_Scott
2nd October 2007, 02:33
Originally posted by Alcaeos+October 01, 2007 07:18 pm--> (Alcaeos @ October 01, 2007 07:18 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 12:00 am
not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare
Why could the monks rot for all you care? I don't think you know that it is a tradition for families to send at least one of their sons to become a monk in Burma [/b]
once opon atime it was tradition for parents to send there children to monestarys to become men of the cloth, it was also tradition to have the women folk barefoot and pregnant. not all tradition is good, and just because they are backwards does not they mean in this case that they warrant my pitty. my heart goes out to the people, not the monks

A Suvorov
2nd October 2007, 02:55
The final, sad truth of the matter is that nobody- least of all the US- is going to do a damned thing about it for two simple reasons: 1) they're not White, and 2) they're not Christians.

If this were a case of, say, Belgians or Germans or English carrying on like that I'm sure there would be a WHOLE lot more rumblings from the US government and the population as a whole. However, since they're 'just Asians' I think it's pretty safe to say the US won't do anything but talk, talk, talk and DO nothing to intervene.

I'll sum up the entire US response to this issue in one word: Rwanda. Same response, different country. If we were desperately needed ANYWHERE in the past two decades, Rwanda was it- and we were a complete and utter failure in helping anyone in that terrible time for Africa. Why? Rwanda can be summed up in ONE simple reason: they weren't White. What a poor reason for allowing the slaughter of so many innocents.

But, oh, we could go to Grenada (oooo that devil Fidel Casto- he's the next Hitler, you know, and he used to have missiles) and Panama (oooo that devil Noriega- he's the next Hitler, you know, and he controls the Panama Canal) and Kosovo/Albania/Bosnia/name of the day (oooo that devil Milosevic- he's the next Hitler, you know, and we need the Balkans to further encirlce the Russians)) and all the way to Kuwait and Iraq (oooo that devil Saddam Hussein- he's the next Hitler, you know, and Iraq is a stepping stone to Iran). It appears that Ahmed Ahmadinejad is the next Hitler, you know, so I guess we'll have to get him too. (Of course it doesn't hurt that he's got something we want- control of oil reserves).

What does Myanmar/Burma have? I'll bet we can do without it, otherwise there *might* be something done- but since it's just people being killed (and they have no major resources we need) we won't bother with it.

Remember Rwanda if you want to know how the US can let this happen in Myanmar.

Comrade_Scott
2nd October 2007, 03:00
Originally posted by A [email protected] 01, 2007 07:55 pm
Remember Rwanda if you want to know how the US can let this happen in Myanmar.
so true

which doctor
2nd October 2007, 03:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 07:00 pm
its pissy whats going on down there, not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare as my main concern is with the people. the repurcussions for this hopefull(if pointless) uprising will be harsh, and as usual the west will bawl and do nothing and the third world will watch some cussing and some saying not our issue. shame on them all
Are these individual monks not people themselves?

bcbm
2nd October 2007, 03:10
You oppose US invasion to two equally harsh regimes, but are calling for action to be taken here? Can't have it both ways, folks.

Ultra-Violence
2nd October 2007, 07:39
You oppose US invasion to two equally harsh regimes, but are calling for action to be taken here? Can't have it both ways, folks.



WHOAAAAAAA I dont think any one here wants america to get involed here
But Since we all live on the same planet shouldnt we be concerned when fellow human beings are bieng Murderd?




Are these individual monks not people themselves?

I mean seruiosly have some fucking respect man these monks are putting thier lives on the front lines for fucking freedom and change the most brave shit any one can do and you could care less about em fuck what have you fucking done!

RedAnarchist
2nd October 2007, 12:34
China could easily act, but they won't because they have "interest" in Burma. The West and the UN won't do anything except maybe mutter a little in the media -and even then, that mutter seems to have gone down to a whisper. The Burmese people shouldn't expect help from any foreign government, because none will see what they can get from helping them.

Comrade_Scott
2nd October 2007, 12:53
Originally posted by FoB+October 01, 2007 08:09 pm--> (FoB @ October 01, 2007 08:09 pm)
[email protected] 01, 2007 07:00 pm
its pissy whats going on down there, not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare as my main concern is with the people. the repurcussions for this hopefull(if pointless) uprising will be harsh, and as usual the west will bawl and do nothing and the third world will watch some cussing and some saying not our issue. shame on them all
Are these individual monks not people themselves? [/b]
were they complaning when there people werent being beaten? no! where were they? oh yeah being apart of the government sitting down watching all this happen in years before but when one of there own gets hurt oh no we must stop this they say. fuck them fucking hypocrites

Comrade_Scott
2nd October 2007, 12:55
Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 02, 2007 12:39 am

You oppose US invasion to two equally harsh regimes, but are calling for action to be taken here? Can't have it both ways, folks.



WHOAAAAAAA I dont think any one here wants america to get involed here
But Since we all live on the same planet shouldnt we be concerned when fellow human beings are bieng Murderd?




Are these individual monks not people themselves?

I mean seruiosly have some fucking respect man these monks are putting thier lives on the front lines for fucking freedom and change the most brave shit any one can do and you could care less about em fuck what have you fucking done!
so if the pope went out and championed this movement on the front lines would you support him? no, why should the situation be any different? i support the civilians who protest

which doctor
2nd October 2007, 13:03
Originally posted by Comrade_Scott+October 02, 2007 06:53 am--> (Comrade_Scott @ October 02, 2007 06:53 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 08:09 pm

[email protected] 01, 2007 07:00 pm
its pissy whats going on down there, not a fan of da monks and they can rot for all icare as my main concern is with the people. the repurcussions for this hopefull(if pointless) uprising will be harsh, and as usual the west will bawl and do nothing and the third world will watch some cussing and some saying not our issue. shame on them all
Are these individual monks not people themselves?
were they complaning when there people werent being beaten? no! where were they? oh yeah being apart of the government sitting down watching all this happen in years before but when one of there own gets hurt oh no we must stop this they say. fuck them fucking hypocrites [/b]
I'm sure that they were fact complaining, but complaining doesn't get you anywhere. Now they are taking action against their oppressive government, and being killed for it.

I ask you, when was the last time you took action against your government under the penalty of death?

Personally, I don't want to see any national militaries or even the UN get involved.

spartan
2nd October 2007, 13:31
Ultra-Violence:
I mean seruiosly have some fucking respect man these monks are putting thier lives on the front lines for fucking freedom and change the most brave shit any one can do and you could care less about em fuck what have you fucking done!
The monks are not putting their lives at risk for freedom! They are doing it so they can regain their once dominant position in Myanmar (Or to gain an even more dominant position then what they currently have in Myanmar which is already quite influential to say the least! Though i suspect after these protests they will not have as much influence anymore) under a USA backed Bourgeoisie Liberal "Democracy" where The USA Bourgeoisie would take all of Myanmars huge abundance of natural resources which like oil in the middle east is much needed by the USA and is untapped market except for when the British controlled Myanmar. This is just another attempt at one of those stupid American backed colour revolutions (Like the ones in Georgia and Ukraine) where the USA gains a strategic spot against a bigger threat (In Myanmar's case China and in Georgia and Ukraine's case it was Iran and Russia) and all that nation has to offer in the way of natural resources. Also the USA does not have to commit any troops to Myanmar as I have the impression that the USA does not have the resources for a protracted struggle against Myanmar should the USA ever decide to invade Myanmar for they are too bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq at the moment and with memories of the Vietnam war and Myanmar being on the same region as Vietnam (south east Asia) the USA wont want to be embarrassed and have its arse handed to them in a Guerrilla struggle like in the Vietnam war.

synthesis
2nd October 2007, 15:09
If there is work to be done, and the government cannot be trusted to do it, you should lead by example. Asking "how can we let this happen?" does not do anything to prevent it from happening.

blackstone
2nd October 2007, 15:28
Originally posted by A [email protected] 02, 2007 01:55 am
The final, sad truth of the matter is that nobody- least of all the US- is going to do a damned thing about it for two simple reasons: 1) they're not White, and 2) they're not Christians.

If this were a case of, say, Belgians or Germans or English carrying on like that I'm sure there would be a WHOLE lot more rumblings from the US government and the population as a whole. However, since they're 'just Asians' I think it's pretty safe to say the US won't do anything but talk, talk, talk and DO nothing to intervene.

I'll sum up the entire US response to this issue in one word: Rwanda. Same response, different country. If we were desperately needed ANYWHERE in the past two decades, Rwanda was it- and we were a complete and utter failure in helping anyone in that terrible time for Africa. Why? Rwanda can be summed up in ONE simple reason: they weren't White. What a poor reason for allowing the slaughter of so many innocents.

But, oh, we could go to Grenada (oooo that devil Fidel Casto- he's the next Hitler, you know, and he used to have missiles) and Panama (oooo that devil Noriega- he's the next Hitler, you know, and he controls the Panama Canal) and Kosovo/Albania/Bosnia/name of the day (oooo that devil Milosevic- he's the next Hitler, you know, and we need the Balkans to further encirlce the Russians)) and all the way to Kuwait and Iraq (oooo that devil Saddam Hussein- he's the next Hitler, you know, and Iraq is a stepping stone to Iran). It appears that Ahmed Ahmadinejad is the next Hitler, you know, so I guess we'll have to get him too. (Of course it doesn't hurt that he's got something we want- control of oil reserves).

What does Myanmar/Burma have? I'll bet we can do without it, otherwise there *might* be something done- but since it's just people being killed (and they have no major resources we need) we won't bother with it.

Remember Rwanda if you want to know how the US can let this happen in Myanmar.
Thundering analysis comrade. Maybe if we can ask Angelina Joline to adopt a little monk baby to bring more attention to Myanmar! The media will be all over that story which will force them to broadcast the events in Myanmar. Brilliant, if i do say so myself. Can someone call her publicist?

The Feral Underclass
2nd October 2007, 15:37
Generic.

Ultra-Violence
2nd October 2007, 16:40
so if the pope went out and championed this movement on the front lines would you support him? no, why should the situation be any different? i support the civilians who protest


OF Cousre i would champion the civilian too with out a doubt i dont hold the monks any higher since thier both being murderd by thier govement

Vanguard1917
2nd October 2007, 17:24
I find it very interesting that, on a 'revolutionary left' message board, there are people demanding Western intervention in Burma, or else blaming the West for its supposed 'lack' of intervention.

Are we therefore claiming that Western states and Western imperialist organisations like the UN can play a possitive role in non-Western world? Are we saying that the West should be permitted to act as a global police force, mediating political conflicts in societies worldwide?

The number one duty of leftists in the West should be to oppose our states' attempts to interfere in Burma.

Andy Bowden
2nd October 2007, 18:19
Why is it Burma is seen as an acceptable state to criticise by Western powers - but not Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan etc - is their economy state-owned, economically nationalist etc?

bcbm
2nd October 2007, 18:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 10:24 am
I find it very interesting that, on a 'revolutionary left' message board, there are people demanding Western intervention in Burma, or else blaming the West for its supposed 'lack' of intervention.

Are we therefore claiming that Western states and Western imperialist organisations like the UN can play a possitive role in non-Western world? Are we saying that the West should be permitted to act as a global police force, mediating political conflicts in societies worldwide?

The number one duty of leftists in the West should be to oppose our states' attempts to interfere in Burma.
Exactly.



:blink:
Holy shit, we agreed on something...


WHOAAAAAAA I dont think any one here wants america to get involed here

Actually, several posters have mentioned the US and why it won't get involved, or railing on it for not getting involved.


But Since we all live on the same planet shouldnt we be concerned when fellow human beings are bieng Murderd?


Hundreds of thousands of people die every day from things that could be prevented, be it hunger or oppressive governments. The sad fact is that the only way to stop those deaths is through a revolution of the under classes, not government intervention.

manic expression
2nd October 2007, 18:39
Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 02, 2007 05:19 pm
Why is it Burma is seen as an acceptable state to criticise by Western powers - but not Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan etc - is their economy state-owned, economically nationalist etc?
Economic interests. Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan cooperate with the US, Burma (as far as I know) does not.

Tatarin
3rd October 2007, 02:13
Economic interests. Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan cooperate with the US, Burma (as far as I know) does not.

They even moved their capital for that very purpose (fear of US invasion).

Well, I hope the sanctions next week is going to do some bad to those generals...
:rolleyes:

MarxSchmarx
3rd October 2007, 04:52
Shame on Myanmar's democratic neighbors for turning a cold shoulder. And I don't understand where all this monk bashing is coming from. The monks have stated they want three things.

1. Lower commodity prices for the basic necessities of life.
2. Release of political prisoners.
3. National reconciliation.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/616...7AC526A56BC.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6164D6D9-E42A-4A96-8305-F7AC526A56BC.htm)

Spare us the resurgent theocracy stuff, will you? Would you direct that kind of vitriolic nonsense at American civil rights clergy or liberation theologists?

How can anyone who says the equivalent of "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King wanted to reinstate the puritanical old order" be taken seriously, on revleft of all places?

It is patronizing in the extreme to people that have laid down their lives for social justice. :angry:

Also, here's an article that addresses the question raised in this thread:




As the Burmese military brutally cracks down on a popular uprising of its citizens demanding democracy the question on many minds is – so what is the world going to do about it?

From the trend visible so far the answer is simple- nothing at all.

Nothing, that is, beyond the usual condemnations and pious appeals for ‘peaceful dialogue’ and the posturing at international forums in support of the Burmese people.

Nothing more than sending a lameduck UN envoy to negotiate with the paranoid Burmese generals. Negotiate what? Funeral services for their innocent victims mowed down like rabbits on the streets of Rangoon?

It is not that nothing can be done at all – to begin with, how about kicking the illegitimate military regime out of the UN seat it continues to occupy and replacing it with the country’s elected government-in-exile? Why should Burma continue to be a member of ASEAN or for that matter, by default, also of the Asia-Europe Meeting or ASEM?

What about international sanctions on foreign companies doing business in Burma- including dozens and dozens of Western companies apart from those from Asia? Why should large oil companies like the US based Chevron, the Malaysian Petronas, South Korea's Daewoo International Corp or the French Total continue to be involved in Burma without facing penalties for their support of one of the world’s most heinous dictatorships?

The answers to these elementary questions are quite elementary too- it is Burma’s abundant natural resources and investment opportunities that really matter. Which government really gives a damn for corralled Burmese citizens desperately battling a quasi-fascist regime that is open to foreign enterprises and shut to its own people.

Following the bloodshed in Burma the new French President Nicholas ‘Napoleon’ Sarkozy for instance grandly called on French companies to freeze all their operations in Burma. Close on his heels Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner clarified however that the French oil giant Total, the largest European company operating in Burma, will not pull out for fear they will be ‘replaced by the Chinese’.

Gordon Brown, the British Prime Minister also expressed ‘outrage’ at the Burmese government’s despicable behaviour but was mum about UK companies merrily investing away in Burma. Between 1988 and 2004 companies based out of British territories invested over £1.2bn in Burma, making Britain the 2nd largest investor in this supposedly ostracised country. The sun it seems has not only set on the British Empire but–on its way out- also deep fried the conscience of its politicians.

The Japanese government, another monument to global hypocrisy, shed crocodile tears at the cold-blooded killing of Kenji Nagai, a Japanese journalist shot by a Burmese soldier after he had fallen to the ground while photographing a fleeing crowd of protestors. Mustering all the courage at its command Tokyo asked for an ‘explanation’ and got the response ‘ooops….very sorry” from the Burmese Foreign Minister who must have also muttered ‘that was easy – Moroni San’.

On the question of cutting off aid to the murderous Burmese regime of course the Japanese made their position quite clear- ‘ it is too early’ for such action. They are probably politely waiting for the regime to murder an entire posse of Japanese pressmen before doing anything - Burmese deaths being of no consequence anyway.

The most predictable rhetoric of course came from US President George Bush who while announcing a slew of sanctions on Burma’s military leaders incredibly said, “I urge the Burmese soldiers and police not to use force on their fellow citizens”.

Wait a minute, that is what the Burmese soldiers and police are trained and paid to do- shoot fellow citizens- so what was the point Bush was trying to make? As usual only he and his Maker- from whom he claims to take instructions directly- knows.

Bush could have maybe uttered better chosen words but none of it would have been credible coming from a man with a record of war mongering and mass killings in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Bush own regime’s systematic destruction of international human rights norms have robbed it of the right to lecture even something as low as the Burmese junta about anything. A sad situation indeed.

What about Burma’s old friends like Thailand, Singapore or Malaysia who in a surprise indictment of their fellow ASEAN member expressed ‘revulsion’ at the use of deadly force against innocent civilians? Their statement was welcome no doubt but comes at least two decades too late to be of any real meaning.

Burma’s military rulers have already milked the dubious ASEAN policy of ‘constructive engagement’ for what it was worth to shore up both their regime at home and claw their way back to recognition abroad. In the early nineties when the Burmese generals were really down and out it was ASEAN who offered them succour and friendship while chastising those who called for democracy in Burma as being ignorant of ‘Asian values’.

All this leaves China and India, two of Burma’s giant neighbours, who for long have showered the Burmese junta with investments, aid and sale of armaments and whom the world now expects to use their ‘influence’ over the generals.

China’s active support for the Burmese regime is not surprising at all for a country with its own sordid record of suppressing democratic movements at home and shooting civilian dissenters. I don’t however think the Chinese are really worried about Burmese democracy triggering off another Tiananmen-like event in their own country- not immediately at least and not as long as Chinas’ consumerist boom keeps its population hypnotised.

In fact the Chinese, pragmatic as they are and conscious of protecting their many investments in Burma, may also be among the first to actively topple the Burmese junta if they feel that the tide of protests for democracy is about to win. Their future position on Burma will surely seesaw like a yo-yo depending which cat, black or white, is catching the mice.

Of all the countries around the world the most shameful position is held by India, once the land of the likes of Mahatma Gandhi but now run by politicians with morals that would make a snake-oil salesman squirm. India likes to claim at every opportunity that it is ‘the world’s largest democracy’ but what it tells no one, but everyone can see, is that its understanding of democracy is also of the ‘lowest quality’.

Why else would the Indian government for instance send its Minister for Petroleum Murali Deora to sign a gas exploration deal with the military junta in late September just as it was plotting the wanton murder of its own citizens. In recent years India, among other sweet deals, has also been helping the Burmese military with arms and training- as if their bullets were not hitting their people accurately enough.

It was not always like this though. The "idealist" phase of India’s foreign policy approach to Burma dates from when Indian Prime Minister Nehru and his Burmese counterpart U Nu were close friends and decided policies based on trust and cooperation. After U Nu’s ouster in a military coup in 1962, successive Indian governments opposed the dictatorship on principle.

At the height of the pro-democracy movement in 1988 the All India Radio’s Burmese service for instance had even called General Newin and his men ‘dogs’ (very insulting to dogs of course). With the coming of the P.V.Narasimha Rao government in 1992 though it is India that has been wagging its tail all along.

The "pragmatic" phase of Indian foreign policy toward Burma since the early nineties meant throwing principles out the window and doing anything required to further Indian strategic and economic interests. An additional excuse to cozy up to the military junta was the perceived need to counter ‘Chinese influence’ over the country.

In all these years however there is little evidence that India’s long-term interests were better met by "amoral pragmatism" than the "muddled idealism" that had prevailed in the past. In fact, what emerges on a close examination of current Indian policy is that, for all its realpolitik gloss, the only beneficiary is the Burmese regime itself.

Take the myth of India countering China which, according to Indian defence analysts has in the last two decades gained a significant foothold in Burma, setting up military installations targeting India and wielding considerable influence on the regime and its strategic thinking. They say that India’s strong pro-democracy stand in the wake of the 1988 Burmese uprising provided a window for countries like China and Pakistan to get closer to the Burmese generals.

Indian and other defence analysts, with their blinkered view of the world as a geo-political chess game, forget that the then Indian government’s decision to back the pro-democracy movement was not a "mistake" born out of ignorance, but an official reflection of the genuine support for the Burmese people among Indian citizens.

The second myth that propels the Indian foreign ministry to woo the Burmese generals is that by doing so India can get Burma’s support in curbing the arms and drugs trafficking that fuel the insurgencies in the Indian Northeast. This argument assumes that the Burmese junta is both willing and able to control the activities of Indian ethnic militants and Burmese drug traffickers along the border. In the case of drug trafficking from Burma there is reason to be worried—groups close to the regime benefit directly from the trade.

Through its current policy the Indian government has achieved none of its strategic aims in Burma and instead alienated Burma’s pro-democracy movement and its millions of supporters worldwide. While sections of the Indian population are apathetic or ignorant about their government’s policies towards Burma, their silence does not imply approval.

India is not a democracy because of the benevolence of its elitist politicians, bureaucrats and "defence analysts" but despite them and because of the strong abhorrence of dictatorship of any kind among the Indian people. It is high time that the Indian government respected the sentiments of its voters and stopped misusing the term "national interests" to support Burma’s military dictators.

As for the Burmese people themselves what the world’s wilful impotence in dealing with their brutal rulers indicates is that ultimately they will have to achieve democratic rule in Burma entirely on their own strength.

The people of the world will of course support them in whatever way they can but to expect governments around the globe to help topple the Burmese military regime is as unrealistic as asking the regime to step down on its own. There is no option but to keep the struggle going.

Satya Sagar is a writer, journalist and videomaker based in New Delhi. He can be reached at [email protected]

synthesis
3rd October 2007, 06:31
Spare us the resurgent theocracy stuff, will you? Would you direct that kind of vitriolic nonsense at American civil rights clergy or liberation theologists?

How can anyone who says the equivalent of "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King wanted to reinstate the puritanical old order" be taken seriously, on revleft of all places?


100%. In places like these, where most of the population is still highly religious, resistance to oppression will often come from religious institutions.

Here, this pseudo-Marxist idea that all religion is an inherent agent of oppression in all contexts is mostly advanced by people who feel they're doing something new and rebellious by shouting "Fuck the Buddhists!"

spartan
3rd October 2007, 13:28
Religious institutions are part of the oppression not Religious people.

Guerrilla22
3rd October 2007, 18:53
If there were oil in Burma the US would lead a brave coalition of the willing in to liberate the oppressed people of Burma, I'm sure, however the fact is there isn't oil in Burma or at least not enough to draw the interest of the defenders of freedom, so the Burmese people are fucked.

blackstone
3rd October 2007, 19:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 05:53 pm
If there were oil in Burma the US would lead a brave coalition of the willing in to liberate the oppressed people of Burma, I'm sure, however the fact is there isn't oil in Burma or at least not enough to draw the interest of the defenders of freedom, so the Burmese people are fucked.
They wouldn't care if Bhurma was one of the largest oil exporters. There's millions of oppressed Africans sitting on a vast amount of natural resources and US doesn't lead a brave coalition to establish order. There's more to it than that.

synthesis
3rd October 2007, 21:03
Originally posted by blackstone+October 03, 2007 11:55 am--> (blackstone @ October 03, 2007 11:55 am)
[email protected] 03, 2007 05:53 pm
If there were oil in Burma the US would lead a brave coalition of the willing in to liberate the oppressed people of Burma, I'm sure, however the fact is there isn't oil in Burma or at least not enough to draw the interest of the defenders of freedom, so the Burmese people are fucked.
They wouldn't care if Bhurma was one of the largest oil exporters. There's millions of oppressed Africans sitting on a vast amount of natural resources and US doesn't lead a brave coalition to establish order. There's more to it than that. [/b]
Thing is, a lot of these oppressed Africans are dealing with corrupt local government who are all too happy to let foreign entities exploit their resources at the expense of their people. Iraq was the same, but Hussein was getting uppity.

If there was an African government sitting on valuable natural resources that challenged American corporations' stakes in their exploitation, and the whole Iraq episode hadn't been such a disaster, then I bet you anything the Bush government would have been issuing reports that the African regime was selling uranium to terrorists and ushered in a hundred thousand troops before anyone could say no. That is, if it couldn't be done covertly.

synthesis
3rd October 2007, 21:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2007 05:28 am
Religious institutions are part of the oppression not Religious people.
In an abstract sense, this is true; realistically, as we can see, this is not always the case.

Ultra-Violence
5th October 2007, 17:32
Originally posted by black coffee black metal+October 02, 2007 05:38 pm--> (black coffee black metal @ October 02, 2007 05:38 pm)
[email protected] 02, 2007 10:24 am
I find it very interesting that, on a 'revolutionary left' message board, there are people demanding Western intervention in Burma, or else blaming the West for its supposed 'lack' of intervention.

Are we therefore claiming that Western states and Western imperialist organisations like the UN can play a possitive role in non-Western world? Are we saying that the West should be permitted to act as a global police force, mediating political conflicts in societies worldwide?

The number one duty of leftists in the West should be to oppose our states' attempts to interfere in Burma.
Exactly.



:blink:
Holy shit, we agreed on something...


WHOAAAAAAA I dont think any one here wants america to get involed here

Actually, several posters have mentioned the US and why it won't get involved, or railing on it for not getting involved.


But Since we all live on the same planet shouldnt we be concerned when fellow human beings are bieng Murderd?


Hundreds of thousands of people die every day from things that could be prevented, be it hunger or oppressive governments. The sad fact is that the only way to stop those deaths is through a revolution of the under classes, not government intervention. [/b]
DUH! why the hell Do you think who we are! :wacko:

Any ways yeah i personaly dont want the U.S or any foriegn Power to get thier dirty hands in thier. But we can still Bring awarness about this and if enough People speak up the world can but presuure on them no? Like how the whole world protested the invasion of iraq? It still happend i know but eh

bcbm
6th October 2007, 03:34
But we can still Bring awarness about this and if enough People speak up the world can but presuure on them no? Like how the whole world protested the invasion of iraq? It still happend i know but eh

Not really. A government like the junta in Myanmar is clearly not influenced by spoken "pressures," least of all from a small group of leftists in foreign countries. You want to put pressure on them, then you need to target their economic interests- investments, etc in the west.

Your Iraq war is a good example of governments completely ignoring "pressure" in the sense you mean it, and how worthless that tactic is.

And, once again, people were talking about intervention from other countries, or even the US. Maybe not you, but then I wasn't talking to you, eh?

Led Zeppelin
6th October 2007, 04:20
Revolutions are bloody affairs, and sometimes they fail, resulting in a "white terror". It must be sad to see this happening in another country, but foreign intervention by other capitalist states is certainly not the answer.

The answer is letting the people of that country decide their future for themselves, because one thing is for sure; if the vast majority of the people have had enough of the military regime, they will act upon it and wipe it away, regardless of the persecutions and the threat of "white terror".

No regime can work if it doesn't work, as Gramsci said; the people will only change the system when they feel that it doesn't work for them anymore.

Has that point been reached in Burma (or Myanmar)? We'll see, but imperialist intervention is definitely not the way to go. There were UN troops in Rwanda, what the hell did they do? Nothing, but protect their own interests, and they will do the same in Burma.

bootleg42
6th October 2007, 08:42
Any foreign intervention would be regressive by all standards for Burma.

The whole situation there is messed up and the opposition are only opportunists who want power and people who want to open markets.

I don't know if there are any leftist forces in the country but if there is, they'd better organize something quick. Get to the peasants. 50 million people inhabit the country and only about 70,000 or so have been joining the protests with the monks. That means that if leftists go to the peasants and workers in the country, you could make the monk's bull shit protest look like nothing.

ComradeR
6th October 2007, 09:28
I've heard as many as 6,000 have been taken by government troops over the last couple of days but I'm not sure if it's true or not, has anyone else heard anything on this?

but foreign intervention by other capitalist states is certainly not the answer.

The answer is letting the people of that country decide their future for themselves, because one thing is for sure; if the vast majority of the people have had enough of the military regime, they will act upon it and wipe it away, regardless of the persecutions and the threat of "white terror".
Exactly, it's up to the people in that nation overthrow that regime, any intervention by an outside imperialist power would result in nothing more then colonization not liberation.

Still no one yet has answered my question so I'll ask it again, is there any active leftist group(s) in Myanmar?

synthesis
6th October 2007, 11:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 12:42 am
Any foreign intervention would be regressive by all standards for Burma.

The whole situation there is messed up and the opposition are only opportunists who want power and people who want to open markets.
You think Suu Kyi is an opportunist? I'm curious as to why. It's just not a perspective I've heard before.

bootleg42
6th October 2007, 16:53
http://www.marxist.com/tragedy-myanmar-birma.htm

R_P_A_S
6th October 2007, 17:09
it just bothers me that we don't really have a voice. we don't have an army or can't do shit about this. Where the fuck do we stand?

spartan
6th October 2007, 17:23
R P A S:
it just bothers me that we don't really have a voice. we don't have an army or can't do shit about this. Where the fuck do we stand?
Why with the Burmese Proletariat of course! But dont be fooled by the western media who are portraying the protesters as saints because they are not!

The protesters also are not representative of the Burmese Proletariat rather they are representative of the new emerging middle class of Myanmar who want more freedom economically whilst the monks protesting with them are simply trying to regain (Or get an even more influentional position than they already have now) their once central position in Burmese society.

Of course the monks have now lost whatever influentional position they had in Burmese society as they have lost against the Government who will no doubt order a crackdown on the monks.

dez
6th October 2007, 21:54
Originally posted by Kun Fanâ@October 02, 2007 02:09 pm
If there is work to be done, and the government cannot be trusted to do it, you should lead by example. Asking "how can we let this happen?" does not do anything to prevent it from happening.
Wise words.
Thus, i quote.

Comrade Rage
6th October 2007, 21:57
Burma's neighbors have let a lot of shit happen there. However, this has 'DOOMED LAST EFFORT TO REGAIN CONTROL' written all over it.

dez
6th October 2007, 21:59
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 06, 2007 08:57 pm
Burma's neighbors have let a lot of shit happen there. However, this has 'DOOMED LAST EFFORT TO REGAIN CONTROL' written all over it.
They did a similar thing in 1988 (was that it?).
It may just not be a "last" effort.

Guerrilla22
8th October 2007, 15:33
Originally posted by blackstone+October 03, 2007 06:55 pm--> (blackstone @ October 03, 2007 06:55 pm)
[email protected] 03, 2007 05:53 pm
If there were oil in Burma the US would lead a brave coalition of the willing in to liberate the oppressed people of Burma, I'm sure, however the fact is there isn't oil in Burma or at least not enough to draw the interest of the defenders of freedom, so the Burmese people are fucked.
They wouldn't care if Bhurma was one of the largest oil exporters. There's millions of oppressed Africans sitting on a vast amount of natural resources and US doesn't lead a brave coalition to establish order. There's more to it than that. [/b]
Not really. There's nothing to be gainded by the uS government economically or politically in Burma so the Burmese government gets scolded at the UN GA and that's about it. If it were the other way around the US would definitely show more interest. Although at this point any invasions of foreign countries are off the table as long as the military is tied up in Iraq.