Morality

[Robespierre2.0]

One common argument I get from people I debate with is that they disagree with communism because its based around a commnist idea of morality, and they argue that you can't force one idea of morality over the whole world.

The reason they like their capitalism is because in their eyes it is the next step of darwinist natural selection- in that there is no morality whatsoever in the system.

I absoutely believe that people are entitled to certain rights, but this is only MY opinion of the right way. How can I change their minds? Is it right for us to force people to change?

[Panda Tse Tung]

Capitalism is based around a moral system. For example in it's defense of property.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/liberty

Is a great example of what is 'capitalist morality', after you've seen this i probably wont have to even add anything about capitalist morality.

Edit: The thing is that morality is relative, under capitalism it is the form of morality they seem to prefer. But that does not make their morality deniable. It's existing, they just don't recognize it.

[Random Precision]

True, morals are subjective. But I think that we can get around the idea of "imposing" our morality on the whole world. Under the capitalist system, people are forced to sell their labor for the profit of others. Our view as socialists is that this relationship between the laborers and owners, is exploitive and immoral. The bourgeois state machine enforces capitalism, thereby forcing its morality on the world as well. Whereas the choice to revolt and establish socialism, if done right, is the will of the people. Once they see how they will benefit under socialism, it comes naturally.

Sorry for the rambling....

[MarxSchmarx]

The reason they like their capitalism is because in their eyes it is the next step of darwinist natural selection- in that there is no morality whatsoever in the system...How can I change their minds?

Echoing other posters, point out that capitalism itself entails a set of moral commitments - the right to the property that you earn, caveat emptor, etc...

Moreover, to argue that it is ok b/c it is an outgrowth of darwinian selection is a moral statement. After all, Darwinian selection could say you should kill other people's offspring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_parasite), because those kids might compete for precious resources with your kids. So pose the question to them this way.

But no one takes that dictum seriously, even in an environment where resources really were scarce. Even if capitalism were a "natural" outgrowth of Darwinism, obviously that reason alone is not good enough to justify it. And the counter-example above demonstrates that point.

[which doctor]

Communism is not a system based upon moralism, it is instead a historical inevitability guided by human development.

[La Comédie Noire]

It doesnt have to have morals. It has a material base to it. All human society is based on cooperation between it's members. Thus if you want to wear shoes you'll cook the food that feeds the man who makes the shoes, and if you want to read the books of your favorite author you'll print them.

Sorry if that came out jumbled or vague, I'm rather tired.

[razboz]

Seems to me that "pure" capitalism precludes morals.

If we understand capitalism to be the triumph of the Market above all other forces influenncing human behaviour, then it is necessary that morals should eb left aside in order to create conditions optimal for healthy and prosperoous capitlaist growth. Indeed the assumption that we should abide by a set of "rules" or moral precepts implies that there are certain things that humans cannot, or should not, do despite their potential to provide an advantage within a capitalist market. For example most moral systems promote the idea that in most cases killing is "wrong". This would clearly be a disadvantage in a society governed by market forces. The person that manages to eliminate his competition by killing them off, would be at a clear advantage to the person who is held back by their moral principles.

There are however two arguments one could (with great validity) make against this statement. Firstly all the players within the market would attempt to attain a high level of security. This would ensure that all of the individuals can operate in greater liberty and without fear that one of the players might do something totally unexpected. This implies the existence of certain norms which everyone can abide to and in this way offer an envronment optimal for secure economic growth. These norms cna take the form of laws, which imply the existance of moral principles upon which to base these laws. Second the capitlism we are currently experiencing is not full-blown capitalism. There still exist a number of institutions, entities and paradigms which hinder all-out capitalism, such as the state, certain morals, and to a small extent religions (excluding those of calvinist origin). This all means that under our current system of liberal capitalism it is irrelevant to say that there are no morals, or that morals cannot exist.

i hope that's realtively clear. Please forgive the typos.

[RedJoey]

Communism just like any other form of society is not maintained by any form of morals whatsoever. The morals are used as a way of imposing hegemonic ideas. Hence why US presidents talk about Christianity then go on to war after war. If communism was based on the hippy love and peace attitude that is often portrayed, why did the Bolsheviks arm themselves to prevent the white army onslaught.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:57 pm
Communism just like any other form of society is not maintained by any form of morals whatsoever. The morals are used as a way of imposing hegemonic ideas. Hence why US presidents talk about Christianity then go on to war after war. If communism was based on the hippy love and peace attitude that is often portrayed, why did the Bolsheviks arm themselves to prevent the white army onslaught.
Whats does hippy love got to do with morals?
It's a form of morality, but not Communist Morality.
It's simple, when you live in a Communist society there ought to be morals supporting that system, giving it reason for existence. For example when someone works in your factory and someone just quits working because he feels he has no moral obligation to work. So the other workers who feel that their moral values have just been bruised will stop providing him the needed resources to sustain and he will inevitably start working again.
This is, whether you like it or not a form of morality, if it would not exist by the time a Communist society would be reached, society would collapse in no time.

[syndicat]

It's a question of liberation from oppression. The class system is based on force and subordination, of the working class, being used to fulfill plans and aims of others, under their conrol and for their benefit, not that of workers. Oppression is a form of injustice.

If people want to argue that capitalism isn't based on morality, that implies it has no legitimacy. Fine. Then they won't mind if the workers seize the means of production and take the capitalists' property away from them, and take away the power of the managerial hierarchies. In reality, of course, the defenders of capitalism do claim that capitalism is legitimate. but the denial of freedom and self-deterimination to the working class, their oppression, is (1) unjust, and (2) sufficient motivation for them to want to liberate themselves from it, and gain control over their work, the economy and the social arrangement.

[Volderbeek]

Anyone (or thing) that thinks uses morality. If capitalists want to promote not thinking to be closer to nature, then go ahead and let them. I guess we could call them hippies or something. :lol:

[Sky]

Incipient bourgeois morality recognized the equality of all men, but only in the sense of ‘equality of opportunity’ for individuals as potential free entrepreneurs. In essence, this meant equality only for private property owners. In its struggle with feudal Christian morality, bourgeois morality first took up the banner of ‘rational egoism’ and ‘mutual exploitation’—that is, its basic assumption was the illusion that any individual could contribute to the good of others and of society as a whole simply by pursuing his own “rational aims”. Classical bourgeois thought reduced morality to a method by which the individual attains success and happiness. This point of view was especially typical of the period of primitive accumulation, when virtue was equated with the asceticism of industry and thrift and with the delay of pleasures and rewards until the future. Later, the working class was exhorted to practice self-restraint as the means of attaining prosperity. But as Engels pointed out, the worker feels that “honesty, thrift, and all the other virtues recommended to him by the wise bourgeoisie’ do not in anyway guarantee that they “will actually lead him to happiness”. The working class works out its own morality even in capitalist society, insofar as it understands its special historical mission and its opposition to the ruling order. Thus develops revolutionary proletarian morality, whose basic demands are the elimination of exploitation and social inequality, the universal obligation to work, and the solidarity of all workers in the struggle against capital. According to Lenin, this morality is “entirely subordinate to the interests of the proletariat’s class struggle”. In the struggle for its rights “the working class also progresses morally” exhibiting, in Engels’ words, “its most attractive, most noble, most human features”. Revolutionary proletarian morality becomes the cornerstone of socialist and communist morality, in which all the norms of universal morality are most fully expressed.

Communist morality is characterized by a consistent realization of the principle of equality and cooperation among people and nations, collectivism, and respect for the human being in all his personal and social manifestations, according to the principle that “the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. Inasmuch as communist morality rejects the idea that either society or individual life are eternal means for the attainment of each other’s aims and believes that society and the individual form an indissoluble unity, it also rejects the concept that is characteristic of bourgeois morality—namely, the sacrifice of one moral principle for another (the sacrifice of honesty to advantage, of the interests of one group to the aims of another group, and of conscience to politics) Thus, communist morality is the highest form of humanism. Responding to the basic interests of the human being, communist morality relies in its political realization on people’s own consciousness, rejects all formalism and dogmatism, and presupposes each person’s profound conviction regarding the justice and humanity of the principles he professes. Unlike moral codes of the past, whose abstract content and pretensions to expressing eternal and unchanging ‘virtues,’ the moral code of communism is objectively conditioned by existing social relations. It is concretely historical and reflects the extent to which the and the form in which new ethical norms have spread, the high moral culture of socialist society, and decisive trends in individual ethical development during the transition to communism.

The guiding code of communist morality is devotion to the communist cause and love of the socialist fatherland. The code defines a new, socialist attitude toward labor, socialist property, and the public interest; toward the family and children; and toward relations between people in a society where socialist production relations prevail. Collectivism, humanity, honesty and truthfulness, and modesty and unpretentiousness are among the attitudes encouraged by this morality. To the extremely important principles of communist morality that expresses its revolutionary orientation and militant spirit, the moral code of the socialist man adds intolerance for the evils of the old order and an uncompromising attitude toward the enemies of communism, peace, freedom. The international character of the moral code is evident in its affirmation of the fraternal solidarity with the working people of all countries and with all peoples. To the savage and cynical values of the exploiting classes, communist morality counterposes the ethical precepts of collectivism and humanism expressed in the words “all for one and one for all” and “man is to a man a friend, comrade, and brother”. At the heart of communist morality is the affirmation of the ideals of the international communist movement and the struggle for communism. But the code has a universal as well as a class content, inasmuch as the struggle for communism ultimately corresponds to the interests of all humanity, as well as the interests of the working class and all working people.

[black magick hustla]

Sky you were going so damn well until you started with "love for fatherland", "humility" etc.


Communism as a movement entails the complete, erotic emancipation of all human faculties. The communist assault against civilization entails an assault against alienation, christian morality, work-ethic, the family, tradition..etc in as much as all of this are the ideological glue of class society.

Communism is not just some sort of godless christian utopia of altruistic, selfless, ascetics--this is a lie perpetuated by the stalinist counterrevolution and its heirs. Lafarge had it right when he wrote "The right to be lazy."

We don't know how communist society is going to exactly look, we however, know that it will be the final stage of the emancipation of all human beings: from sexual, national, ideological, and material constraints. Communist society is probably going to be hold together by a pragmatic social contract, plus the inherent social tendencies of humanity itself.

[Lenin II]

Communism is not about cohersion at all but rather about which interests are at stake. It's about class and the warfare between. Unfortunately reformist class unity is impossible. As shown in history by the Sandinista's Allende, the Communist Party of Indonesia, etc.
Anyway, the bourgeoisie has precious little to preach to us about.