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Comrade Rage
28th September 2007, 00:32
I live in a city with a strong police union presence. Fraternal Order of Police, Milwaukee Police Officers Assoc., Latino Peace Officers Assoc. and the League of Martin. We also have an astronomical rate of officer involved killings, while violent crime is skyrocketing. I just wanted to ask fellow Rev-Lefters what can I do about Police Unions. Is there an effective grassroots way of challenging their power on elected officials, the media, and the judicial system?

fredbergen
28th September 2007, 02:41
I reccommend socialist revolution.

Die Neue Zeit
28th September 2007, 05:59
It doesn't matter:

A) Unions are appendages of the capitalist system, anyway (one of several key areas this "Leninist" is in full agreement with those "suffering" from "an infantile disorder");
B) Police are, as I've said recently, legalized lumpenproles (and here I do differentiate between traffic control folks and, say, riot police).

Axel1917
28th September 2007, 06:10
I don't know much about police unions, but if they are exclusively police in membership, I don't see a problem with opposing them since police aren't workers. In fact, police are the first line of defense of the bourgeois dictatorship.

If it is a union with workers and cops, i.e. Teamsters, then we need to work within these unions to win the workers to our side and boot the police from these unions when we get control of them.

RedJoey
1st October 2007, 16:06
Recently in Britain there was a Prison Officers strike and the conclusions drawn from that is as they are part of the bourgeois state, supporting such a strike action would not be sectarian but counter productive as they make their living from supporting that state and therefore would not have the same interests as the working class.

However in the process of the strike they broke numerous anti-trade union laws. So rather than supporting the prison officers themselves we would use the events to show how a strike can be successful and how anti-trade union laws can be broken.

YSR
1st October 2007, 17:50
We don't allow them in the IWW, not recognizing them as productive, only as tools of the state. A "police union" is just a like an "employer's association." Just 'cause they call it a union doesn't make it inherently progressive.

You are not anti-worker, but technically are anti-union in some specific contexts.

Forward Union
1st October 2007, 18:44
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 27, 2007 11:32 pm
I live in a city with a strong police union presence. Fraternal Order of Police, Milwaukee Police Officers Assoc., Latino Peace Officers Assoc. and the League of Martin. We also have an astronomical rate of officer involved killings, while violent crime is skyrocketing. I just wanted to ask fellow Rev-Lefters what can I do about Police Unions. Is there an effective grassroots way of challenging their power on elected officials, the media, and the judicial system?
To be honest I have never dealt with this, as police unions are banned in the United Kingdom.

But I don't quite understand why their unions are of any significance to us? we oppose them, as they hope to improve the conditions of capitalisms thugs!

ComradeRed
1st October 2007, 19:48
Police are the defenders of property. They aren't workers.

A police union is not a workers' union.

So there's no real problem here...

Pawn Power
1st October 2007, 20:42
Are ya'll in responce soley to police? What about security guards and the like?

Police are definitly in service of the state but secuity guards are usually hired privatly and act more as observers, perhaps informing the police if 'necessary.' In a way they can be compared to store clerks or car garage workers who merely warch over see property.

RGacky3
1st October 2007, 23:22
I don't know, you ask your average poliece man, he is'nt about protecting property, he's about keeping down crime, doing his job, and taking home a check so he can provide for his family, sometimes you gotta look at it from a persons point of view.

ComradeRed
2nd October 2007, 01:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 02:22 pm
I don't know, you ask your average poliece man, he is'nt about protecting property, he's about keeping down crime, doing his job, and taking home a check so he can provide for his family, sometimes you gotta look at it from a persons point of view.
And if you ask a democratic congressman, he'll say he's trying to end the war in Iraq :lol:

Seriously, how naive are you to have learned nothing from history and experience?

Cops carry out their orders, or their canned; it doesn't matter if it's looking for chinese terrorists in Boston, or rounding up Jews for execution. It's all in a day's work for a cop.

He's just "doing his work" trying to "protect the people".

Haven't you ever heard a pig utter the line "We don't make the laws, just enforce them"?

The cops around here blindly follow orders, whether it's beating protesters or rounding muslims for arrest.

Truly such cruelly misunderstood people :lol:


Are ya'll in responce soley to police? What about security guards and the like?
Same social role, and relation to means of production and labor. They're the same thing with different employers.

razboz
2nd October 2007, 03:45
I think the answer to the specific question of the police union in Milwaukee (i assume) is that the should be fought on the same grounds and with the same tools as the police force as a whole: through Copwatch (http://www.copwatch.com) programs, direct actions against police officers/precincts (check your local legislation his MAY be illegal), civil disobedience and so on.

On the general topic of Police Unions it really depends on where you live. Where i live (Mexico) it is very difficult to find a non-corrupt cop. Other than having to spend a fortune on bribes, this means that the drug cartels can very easily buy entire parts of Mexico. This problem stems directly from the piss-poor wages that the Government concedes to the police forces. One of the most effective tools which workers (i use the term losely) can force their employers to give them higher wages is through union strikes. hence why more Police union activity in certain circumstances could be beneficial to ordinary citizens. Despite them being capitalist running dogs or whatever.

Comrade Rage
4th October 2007, 23:47
Originally posted by RGacky+--> (RGacky)I don't know, you ask your average poliece man, he is'nt about protecting property, he's about keeping down crime, doing his job, and taking home a check so he can provide for his family, sometimes you gotta look at it from a persons point of view. [/b]
Even looking at it from a question of law & order, police unions are still an anti-democratic institution.


Originally posted by razboz+--> (razboz)I think the answer to the specific question of the police union in Milwaukee (i assume) is that the should be fought on the same grounds and with the same tools as the police force as a whole: through Copwatch programs, direct actions against police officers/precincts (check your local legislation his MAY be illegal), civil disobedience and so on.
[/b]
Excellent! I'll have to look into starting a copwatch here. It'll be hard work though, since community policing doesn't have a high rate of success here.


Haven't you ever heard a pig utter the line "We don't make the laws, just enforce them"?

The cops around here blindly follow orders, whether it's beating protesters or rounding muslims for arrest.

Truly such cruelly misunderstood people

Honestly. Reasoning with most of them is useless, even going down the hypothetical route, such as if they were asked to enforce edicts in Hitler's Germany.


Pawn [email protected]
Are ya'll in responce soley to police? What about security guards and the like?

Police are definitly in service of the state but secuity guards are usually hired privatly and act more as observers, perhaps informing the police if 'necessary.' In a way they can be compared to store clerks or car garage workers who merely warch over see property.

Actually, there's a pretty big difference with security guards. After all most security guards don't have power over people. Their power comes from police backing them up.

Not to mention that cops over here have basically NO checks on their power. They behave in an unprofessional, unethical, uncivilized and thoroughly wasteful manner.

Add to that the fact that a Milwaukee Police Officer has not been found guilty in an officer-involved shooting in 20 years. And there've been a lot of them.


YSR
We don't allow them in the IWW, not recognizing them as productive, only as tools of the state.
I'm a member, and I think of all the anti-capitalist orgs, the IWW's position on this is the best.

A "police union" is just a like an "employer's association." Just 'cause they call it a union doesn't make it inherently progressive.

You are not anti-worker, but technically are anti-union in some specific contexts.
You're probably right.