Proof that the U$ education system has failed

[Dr Mindbender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI8rtfB3_kk...related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI8rtfB3_kk&mode=related&search=) :lol:

[Whitten]

So so old.

[Dr Mindbender]

Defend or STFU. ''so so old'' is not a defence.

[Whitten]

Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.

[pusher robot]

Proof? Where's the sampling method? Where's the control?

This is the worst sort of reasoning by anecdote. Here in the dumb old U.S., I was taught that without scientific methods, data is proof of NOTHING.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 26, 2007 01:47 pm
Proof? Where's the sampling method? Where's the control?

This is the worst sort of reasoning by anecdote. Here in the dumb old U.S., I was taught that without scientific methods, data is proof of NOTHING.
Did they teach you about a sense of humour?

Personally I would say the problem with the US system comes down to its obsession with constant testing rather than teaching, but that might be too much common sense for some people.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Whitten+--> (Whitten)Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.[/b]
Clearly you were trying to discredit the validity of my point in the process, therefore trying to assert a positive claim to the contrary. If you cant follow this up without attacking my personal attitude or nature, why bother?

pusher robot

Proof? Where's the sampling method? Where's the control?

This is the worst sort of reasoning by anecdote. Here in the dumb old U.S., I was taught that without scientific methods, data is proof of NOTHING.
Bearing in mind that these people interviewed were no doubt selected at random, then surely you must agree that the laws of probability dictate that this presents a reliable demographic of the US public at large?

[Whitten]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+September 26, 2007 02:51 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ September 26, 2007 02:51 pm)
Whitten
Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.
Clearly you were trying to discredit the validity of my point in the process, therefore trying to assert a positive claim to the contrary. If you cant follow this up without attacking my personal attitude or nature, why bother? [/b]
No I wasn't, I was pointing out that the video is very old and that its nothing new to most people. I'm rather sure the US education system is crap.


Bearing in mind that these people interviewed were no doubt selected at random, then surely you must agree that the laws of probability dictate that this presents a reliable demographic of the US public at large?

Or that the stupidest responses out of a large number were put into the video for the sake of humour?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Whitten
Or that the stupidest responses out of a large number were put into the video for the sake of humour?
That represents a small percentage of the amount of people they had the time to interview? They must have a lot of time on their hands.

[pusher robot]

Bearing in mind that these people interviewed were no doubt selected at random

I have no reason whatsoever to believe this is the case. They certainly didn't say it was. In fact, that's probably impossible, since they have no authority to compel people to participate. So at a minimum, you are biasing your samples to people who would voluntarily waste their time answering trivia questions to get on TV.


surely you must agree that the laws of probability dictate that this presents a reliable demographic of the US public at large?

Surely I do not! What was the location of the interviews? The time of day? The character of the person doing the interviewing? The offer made to potential interviewees? We know nothing about possible sample biases. That you could even conceive that such a slapdash technique could yield meaningful results speaks very poorly of your scientific education, frankly.

Furthermore, even assuming it were valid, what is the rationale for concluding that this represents a "failure?" Do we have any indication whatsoever that it was at one time different? Or that it would be different in other countries? No, we do not.

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy and your conclusions are highly questionable. You are a poor scientist, Mr. Socialist.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by pusher robot+--> (pusher robot)I have no reason whatsoever to believe this is the case. They certainly didn't say it was. In fact, that's probably impossible, since they have no authority to compel people to participate. [/b] So people who participate in random interviews are usually stupid? How do you draw that conclusion? Even if a large proportion of people refuse to participate, then chances are that the ones who do still represent an accurate cross section of intelligence/knowledge across the board.

Originally posted by pusher [email protected]

Surely I do not! What was the location of the interviews? The time of day? The character of the person doing the interviewing?
Why should any of these variables affect the responses of the interviewee?

pusher robot

Furthermore, even assuming it were valid, what is the rationale for concluding that this represents a "failure?" Do we have any indication whatsoever that it was at one time different? Or that it would be different in other countries? No, we do not.
Since this was obviously an Australian TV channel poking fun, I think its evident that the situation is not as dire in other countries. Could you envisage an American TV channel making light in the same way bearing in mind their pride in US supremacy? I somehow doubt it.

[Jazzratt]

Ulster Socialist I'm afraid this is a lost cause - however I do have some even more compelling proof. (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showforum=8)

[Dr Mindbender]

lol :lol:

[Dean]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+September 26, 2007 02:51 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ September 26, 2007 02:51 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected]
Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.
Clearly you were trying to discredit the validity of my point in the process, therefore trying to assert a positive claim to the contrary. If you cant follow this up without attacking my personal attitude or nature, why bother? [/b]
He has reason to be angry. By saying Americans are stupid, you are implying something about Americans, of which he may very well be one (I'll assume he is).




pusher robot

Proof? Where's the sampling method? Where's the control?

This is the worst sort of reasoning by anecdote. Here in the dumb old U.S., I was taught that without scientific methods, data is proof of NOTHING.
Bearing in mind that these people interviewed were no doubt selected at random, then surely you must agree that the laws of probability dictate that this presents a reliable demographic of the US public at large?

Yes, the population was chosen at random (or more accurately, among those people who walked on the given sidewalks from which the interviews were taken).

No, the sample was not taken at random. The assertion in the video is that U.S. citizens are stupid, and it may be very accurate to say that our education system is a joke (my impression is that it is), but the data given is anecdotal and clearly the people who were chosen to be put on TV were those who answered questions erroneously.

Still, his assertion about the "greatness" of our school system teachign the scientific method is nonsensical in regards to the quality of our schools. If they were better, they would go in depth about the method, describe examples in science where the method is not useful and express alternative ways of going about scientific research. A lot of basic metaphysical discussions could be a lot deeper or simpler if we came to the table with that basic knowledge.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Dean+September 27, 2007 11:15 pm--> (Dean @ September 27, 2007 11:15 pm)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 26, 2007 02:51 pm

Whitten
Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.
Clearly you were trying to discredit the validity of my point in the process, therefore trying to assert a positive claim to the contrary. If you cant follow this up without attacking my personal attitude or nature, why bother?
He has reason to be angry. By saying Americans are stupid, you are implying something about Americans, of which he may very well be one (I'll assume he is).

. [/b]
That was not my insinuation, I was merely illustrating that for the better part the education system in the states has failed the majority. Of course there are clever Americans, there are exceptions to every rule. :D

[Comrade Rage]

The American educational system is a joke, albeit a bad one.
It's not elitist to realize it has, it's smart to.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 27, 2007 11:21 pm
The American educational system is a joke, albeit a bad one.
It's not elitist to realize it has, it's smart to.
I bet its great if you have the cash and status to back it up though.

[Comrade Rage]

It's always great if you have cash. I don't. I participated in the Milwaukee Voucher School program were kids can go to private/parochial schools. I went to a military school and had a MUCH better time than at a public school. They actually care about kids at the school I was at. That's why I support vouchers.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 27, 2007 11:27 pm
It's always great if you have cash. I don't. I participated in the Milwaukee Voucher School program were kids can go to private/parochial schools. I went to a military school and had a MUCH better time than at a public school. They actually care about kids at the school I was at. That's why I support vouchers.
arent vouchers a bit condenscending though? I say fair and equal education for all, regardless of social status and privelege!

[Comrade_Scott]

it may be old bu lol damn the religion in israel is muslim lol and australia is NK lol stupid cant even name a country with u at the start :lol:

[Iron]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 26, 2007 12:00 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI8rtfB3_kk...related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI8rtfB3_kk&mode=related&search=) :lol:
this movie... makes me want to shoot myself...

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+September 27, 2007 11:18 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ September 27, 2007 11:18 pm)
Originally posted by Dean+September 27, 2007 11:15 pm--> (Dean @ September 27, 2007 11:15 pm)
Ulster [email protected] 26, 2007 02:51 pm

Whitten
Why would I want to defend? I was just pointing out that you were postinga vid which is years old and which 99% of the people on the web will have already seen. And seriously, is it to difficlt to speak in a civil manner? It makes you look like a 10 year old.
Clearly you were trying to discredit the validity of my point in the process, therefore trying to assert a positive claim to the contrary. If you cant follow this up without attacking my personal attitude or nature, why bother?
He has reason to be angry. By saying Americans are stupid, you are implying something about Americans, of which he may very well be one (I'll assume he is).

. [/b]
That was not my insinuation, I was merely illustrating that for the better part the education system in the states has failed the majority. Of course there are clever Americans, there are exceptions to every rule. :D [/b]

That was not my insinuation, I was merely illustrating that for the better part the education system in the states has failed the majority.

The biggest problem with education is not so much the schools themselves - though there are problems there, just not the biggest - is cultural dysfunction among certain social segments that reject the value of education or long-term self-improvement. It simply is not possible to educate someone who is unwilling to learn. On the other hand, educational opportunities for the willing are plentiful.

Look, there are serious problems with public education in the United States. I won't - I can't - argue with that. But your implication that there is some kind of massive failure happening is wrong. Any student serious about obtaining a quality education can do so - even in public schools - and the university system is the finest anywhere. Do most Americans have a rather poor grasp of the rest of the world? Yes, probably - NOT because they weren't taught in school, but because such knowledge is almost completely irrelevant to their everyday lives. It has the status of "trivia," easily forgotten and unimportant. Don't forget that North America is a huge and quite varied continent. Lots of people will never even leave it, and fewer still will have any reason beyond leisure to do so. Most Americans believe that the "outside world" cannot really affect them, so they have no reason to worry about it or give it much attention, other than to choose vacation destinations.

The reason I took such issue with your post is that you weren't basing your opinion on anything that we can have an objective discussion about. It's not good science and you really ought to know better.

[pusher robot]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+September 27, 2007 11:34 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ September 27, 2007 11:34 pm)
COMRADE [email protected] 27, 2007 11:27 pm
It's always great if you have cash. I don't. I participated in the Milwaukee Voucher School program were kids can go to private/parochial schools. I went to a military school and had a MUCH better time than at a public school. They actually care about kids at the school I was at. That's why I support vouchers.
arent vouchers a bit condenscending though? I say fair and equal education for all, regardless of social status and privelege! [/b]
How are vouchers condescending? Because they aren't offered to those that can afford to pay their own way?

The voucher allows parents to send their child to a school that they otherwise couldn't afford.

Think of it this way: voucher proponents agree that universal education is a worthy ideal and a goal worth pursuing. Of course, education takes resources. One way to deliver those resources is to have the government operate the schools directly. For a myriad of reasons, this has proven to be obscenely inefficient and delivering poor quality education.

The other possibility is to simply give the parents the resources directly and allow them to determine which educational options those resources are best spent on. This is basically the voucher system.

The basic idea is that we don't force the very poor who need food assistance to shop at government-run grocery stores - we give them vouchers (aka "food stamps") to use as they see fit (within some major parameters of course.) Educational vouchers use basically the same principle.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by pusher [email protected] 28, 2007 03:07 pm
The voucher allows parents to send their child to a school that they otherwise couldn't afford.
Why bother with vouchers, have a decent national education system and you're fine. But then again you guys never really understood much about that kind of thing.


Think of it this way: voucher proponents agree that universal education is a worthy ideal and a goal worth pursuing. Of course, education takes resources. One way to deliver those resources is to have the government operate the schools directly. For a myriad of reasons, this has proven to be obscenely inefficient and delivering poor quality education.

Why not let the fucking teachers run the place, after all they're the ones who know what they're bloody well doing. All the government needs to do is provide money (that is until after a revolutionary situation) and the teacher's unions can run each school individually.

If you want to know how that would work you could look into the history of the NUT in England who, during a strike, opened a school on the picket lines (this was in '77 or so) which started as a few simple marquees where students could come to be educated by non-scabs. By the time it was shut down ('05) it was held in an actual building. The quality of education the students received was excellent and the fact that it didn't rely on any central authority gave the teachers more flexibility in their lessons.

A more recent example would be, naturally, Oaxaca - where the students and teachers that hadn't been shot were managing a thriving education system behind the barricades.


The other possibility is to simply give the parents the resources directly and allow them to determine which educational options those resources are best spent on. This is basically the voucher system.

The "choice" will always be between a bunch of bourgeois private schools.


The basic idea is that we don't force the very poor who need food assistance to shop at government-run grocery stores - we give them vouchers (aka "food stamps") to use as they see fit (within some major parameters of course.) Educational vouchers use basically the same principle.

I always loathed your country's concept of "welfare".

[pusher robot]

Why bother with vouchers, have a decent national education system and you're fine.

No you are not fine unless you are free to take your resources elsewhere.



But then again you guys never really understood much about that kind of thing.

You mean that authoritarian thing where compliance is mandatory on pain of confiscation or imprisonment? Where there are no alternatives allowed and no ability to choose? I'll grant you that one, we never really understood that whole thing.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by pusher robot+September 28, 2007 05:07 pm--> (pusher robot @ September 28, 2007 05:07 pm) Think of it this way: voucher proponents agree that universal education is a worthy ideal and a goal worth pursuing. Of course, education takes resources. One way to deliver those resources is to have the government operate the schools directly. For a myriad of reasons, this has proven to be obscenely inefficient and delivering poor quality education. [/b]
Really? I hope you are aware of the fact that public education has existed in every single industrialized country (and many non-industrialized ones) since the 19th century. Indeed, the state invented the education system as we know it today - state schools came first, then came the idea to set up private schools for people other than the privileged upper class.

To say that public education in general (rather than public education in a given place at a given time) is "obscenely inefficient and delivering poor quality education" is to say that most of the education received by the vast majority of people for the past century and a half was obscenely inefficient and of a poor quality. Given the vast scientific progress of the past century and a half, that is a very bizzare claim to say the least.

Indeed, there is no possible way to even begin to test a claim of such immense scope. We don't have a world that underwent a century and a half of private education to use as a control group.


Originally posted by pusher robot+--> (pusher robot)The other possibility is to simply give the parents the resources directly and allow them to determine which educational options those resources are best spent on. This is basically the voucher system.[/b]
And the problem with this is that it allows parents to control (and possibly mismanage) the one thing that their children's entire lives will depend on. The introduction of vouchers would give schools an incentive to cater to the wishes of the parents rather than the needs of the children. I would expect that a self-proclaimed scientist such as you should be horrified at the prospect of hundreds of new private schools teaching only creationism in biology classes.


pusher [email protected]
The basic idea is that we don't force the very poor who need food assistance to shop at government-run grocery stores - we give them vouchers (aka "food stamps") to use as they see fit (within some major parameters of course.) Educational vouchers use basically the same principle.
Ah, but the product is different. What you buy at a grocery store does not determine your future opportunities in life.


pusher robot
The biggest problem with education is not so much the schools themselves - though there are problems there, just not the biggest - is cultural dysfunction among certain social segments that reject the value of education or long-term self-improvement.
You call it cultural dysfunction. We call it class society.

After all, you can't blame proletarians for believing that hard work is not valued or rewarded in capitalism, since that is, in fact, true.

[pusher robot]

To say that public education in general (rather than public education in a given place at a given time) is "obscenely inefficient and delivering poor quality education" is to say that most of the education received by the vast majority of people for the past century and a half was obscenely inefficient and of a poor quality.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that public education as it exists in the U.S. is inefficient and of poor - I should really say "uneven" - quality, and all attempts at reform have thus far failed.


Indeed, there is no possible way to even begin to test a claim of such immense scope.Well, we can observe that funding has greatly increased while educational metrics have greatly decreased in the same public schools over time. From that we can conclude that either (a) the schools are becoming inefficient and performing worse, or (b) people are becoming more difficult to educate. It could also (as I believe) be some combination of the both.


The introduction of vouchers would give schools an incentive to cater to the wishes of the parents rather than the needs of the children.

And what incentive is there under the status quo to cater to the needs of the children? If anything, even less.

Of course, your argument begs the question of what the needs of children actually are, although I suspect you believe you can freely substitute your judgment on that matter for anybody else's.


I would expect that a self-proclaimed scientist such as you should be horrified at the prospect of hundreds of new private schools teaching only creationism in biology classes.I would, but I consider that such a low probability that I don't worry much about it.


We call it class society.It certainly doesn't follow your class demarcations though. Cultures that are materially poor but value education do very well when they aren't discriminated against. Other cultures that receive far more material assistance do very poorly in spite of it. You seem to be arguing that "proletarians" as a class do not value education, but that does not follow empirical observations.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

I'm a product of the US Education System, and while it wasn't the best education, it's better than being illiterate.

I was careful to write "publicly funded education" and not "public education," leaving open the option that there are other acceptable models of education besides government operated schools, but they do require public funding.

Horrible performing students are failed by (1) parents who don't care about education; (2) peers who don't care about education; (3) political correctness that prevent teachers from telling the kid that the values being taught to him by his parent(s) and his peers are wrong values.

The "system" contributes only to a small part of the problem and that's a result of inaction of instilling values to those that need them.

[La Comédie Noire]

Coming from the United States I can vouch for this 100%. I can tell you even coming from the "enlightened" and "liberal" north there are people who would drive you insane with their stupidity and it's really a shame because all this valuable information is available to anyone in this country willing to learn.

I don't despise these people because they are unintelligent, I despise these people because they choose to be that way.

[Ultra-Violence]

FUCK YOU!

How is a child gaona wana learn when he has fucking hunger pains and cant concentrate you sack of shits! How am i gona be motivated to learn when i got Four P.E classes What kind of message is that giving to me and my peers! you fuckers dont know shit! While the white kids get all the fucking funding and more that they want. Fucking police dogs come into my school and sniff away my MOTHER FUCKING RIGHTS! When im being constantly harased and searhed my Class doesnt have enoguh mother fucking seats that i have to sit on the dam air conditoner unit!I dont get told anything about fucking colledge but the dam miliatary recruiters are calling me up? FUCK YOU!

[La Comédie Noire]

FUCK YOU!

How is a child gaona wana learn when he has fucking hunger pains and cant concentrate you sack of shits! How am i gona be motivated to learn when i got Four P.E classes What kind of message is that giving to me and my peers! you fuckers dont know shit! While the white kids get all the fucking funding and more that they want. Fucking police dogs come into my school and sniff away my MOTHER FUCKING RIGHTS! When im being constantly harased and searhed my Class doesnt have enoguh mother fucking seats that i have to sit on the dam air conditoner unit!I dont get told anything about fucking colledge but the dam miliatary recruiters are calling me up? FUCK YOU!

I'm sorry, I shouldn't of been so vague or unfeeling. Tell us more, tell us your story, testify against injustice.

[La Comédie Noire]

FUCK YOU!

How is a child gaona wana learn when he has fucking hunger pains and cant concentrate you sack of shits! How am i gona be motivated to learn when i got Four P.E classes What kind of message is that giving to me and my peers! you fuckers dont know shit! While the white kids get all the fucking funding and more that they want. Fucking police dogs come into my school and sniff away my MOTHER FUCKING RIGHTS! When im being constantly harased and searhed my Class doesnt have enoguh mother fucking seats that i have to sit on the dam air conditoner unit!I dont get told anything about fucking colledge but the dam miliatary recruiters are calling me up? FUCK YOU!

I'm sorry, I shouldn't of been so vague or unfeeling. Tell us more, tell us your story, testify against injustice.

[Ultra-Violence]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't of been so vague or unfeeling. Tell us more, tell us your story, testify against injustice.


Like i Said Before FUCK YOU!
Yeah theres people who dont want to learn But Its Different When your being told Every fucking day of your life your not worth the fucking time

[La Comédie Noire]

Like i Said Before FUCK YOU!
Yeah theres people who dont want to learn But Its Different When your being told Every fucking day of your life your not worth the fucking time

Alright dude, just try to rise above it.

[Ultra-Violence]

But my comment wasnt specificaly only to you its shit like this that pisses me off


The biggest problem with education is not so much the schools themselves - though there are problems there, just not the biggest - is cultural dysfunction among certain social segments that reject the value of education or long-term self-improvement. It simply is not possible to educate someone who is unwilling to learn. On the other hand, educational opportunities for the willing are plentiful.

edit:spelling

[La Comédie Noire]

That's just Chauvnist bull crap directed at black ghettos. How do they expect us to believe 22 million people just don't "feel like getting an education" because of their culture.

I can see how my comment could be intepreted as that.