Language in a future Anarchist/Communist society

[spartan]

Okay so i want to know what people here think about language in a post revolution future Anarchist/Communist society? Will there only be one language (For instance English) which all humans regardless of race or former nationality will speak? (This would certainly make things a whole lot easier and efficient) or will all languages be protected? Personally i think all languages should be protected but one main language for everyone should be the only language taught in schools to children and used in most capacities in life such as work (And gradually the other less spoken languages will simply die out). So what does everyone here think about this issue? Remember there are seven main languages in the world spoken by large populations of humans these include Arabic (Spoken by most Muslims who are members of the worlds second largest Religion), Chinese (The most spoken language in the world as China has the largest population in the world), English (The second most used language in the world and the language used for most official things in the international community), French (Former parts of their old large empire still speak French as their official language), Hindi (Spoken by most Indians as it is India's official language and India has a very large population), Russian (Spoken by people who are apart of the biggest country in the world Russia. Also most neighbours of Russia understand and speak Russian as they were once apart of the USSR of which Russian was the official language) and Spanish (Spoken by most of the people who are apart of the continent of America and former parts of the large Spanish empire of which most of the continent of America was apart of).

[Tower of Bebel]

All languages will have the chance to develope. No language will be lost because of economic or political reasons like today.

[spartan]

Would it not be easier for everyone if we all spoke one language (Or at least the same language as our first language) and therefore understood all humans not just the ones who speak the same language as you? In fact all people speaking the same language will prevent certain types of exploitation.

[Random Precision]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 08:27 pm
Would it not be easier for everyone if we all spoke one language (Or at least the same language as our first language) and therefore understood all humans not just the ones who speak the same language as you? In fact all people speaking the same language will prevent certain types of exploitation.
How would you propose adopting a universal language? And what language would it be?

[Tower of Bebel]

It would be easier, but many would like to keep their language and their traditions. As English, French, Spanish, German, Chinese and Russian are the most imporatn languages today, maybe in the future communist society these language will still have a major role in communication and trade.

[lombas]

In Anarchy, language does not own you, you own language.

[My Heart is a Molotov]

I think the problem with one language being used above other languages until the others die out, is that not all languages have the same words and strength of words. I rembember reading somewhere that different languages are good for different uses (ie. German for philosophy, English for business and Inuit languages for describing ice/snow - or something like that). I think if there was to be a universal language it would have to include the strengths of all languages.

Maybe this is another example where we have to question whether the access to words and their meanings can change the thoughts of people? I guess that could also go with lombas's statement that "you own the language".

I'm not so knowledgable when it comes to semantics/linguistics/whatever but I hope this gives something to the topic.

[Red Scare]

ok, I think people should speak whatever language they want because we do not want any newspeak scenarios

[Bilan]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 23, 2007 12:13 pm
ok, I think people should speak whatever language they want because we do not want any newspeak scenarios
Seconded.

[My Heart is a Molotov]

yeah, i totally agree on that too.

but i guess for that sake of practicality that spartan was talking about, is it necessary that everyone can speak the same language? maybe a feature of the "anarchist/communist cultures" would be an emphasis on people taking the time to learn numerous languages?

without understanding between languages could it be possible to have an indirect "national anarchist" style outcome where people could be divided along lines of ethnicity due to language barriers (i know language doesn't necessarily determine ethnicity but it can be a part of it)?

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:33 pm
In Anarchy, language does not own you, you own language.
What does that even mean?

Are you saying that in an anarchist society language will not contribute to one's mental construction of reality...because I don't see how that would be any different?

[Organic Revolution]

A one language program was attempted (See Esperanto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto)) and really never caught on. I for one think it is sort of an absurd idea, and crushes feelings of heritage.

[Eleftherios]

I think that in the future, there will be a dominant language, a lingua franca, but many other languages will be used by the native speakers of many different communitites around the world. Over time, however, these other languages may very well disappear (or maybe just a good number of the smaller, less widely spoken ones).

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 07:56 pm
Remember there are seven main languages in the world spoken by large populations of humans these include Arabic (Spoken by most Muslims who are members of the worlds second largest Religion), Chinese (The most spoken language in the world as China has the largest population in the world), English (The second most used language in the world and the language used for most official things in the international community), French (Former parts of their old large empire still speak French as their official language), Hindi (Spoken by most Indians as it is India's official language and India has a very large population), Russian (Spoken by people who are apart of the biggest country in the world Russia. Also most neighbours of Russia understand and speak Russian as they were once apart of the USSR of which Russian was the official language) and Spanish (Spoken by most of the people who are apart of the continent of America and former parts of the large Spanish empire of which most of the continent of America was apart of).
How do you decide what main is? If it is down to numbers of speakers, the top seven would be very different from yours; Mandarin, Spanish, English, Arabic, Hindi, Portuguese, and Bengali.
French for example comes way down the list.
There are other languages with over 100,000,000 speakers that you didn't even notice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_langu...native_speakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers)

I think that the important point is that nobody will decide what languages people will use except the people who use them.

Devrim

[spartan]

OR:
A one language program was attempted (See Esperanto) and really never caught on. I for one think it is sort of an absurd idea, and crushes feelings of heritage.
Heritage! You do know that absurd and reactionary ideas such as heritage will simply die out in our new society? The fact is heritage has been successfully used by the Bourgeoisie and Nationalists for their racist ideals and to keep the power they have and the Proletariat divided into made up "races" and "cultures". As history has shown heritage often leads to racial seperatism and seperate cultures and thus nations which will fragment our society and endanger the revolution even futher! All in all we on the left should destroy the idea of seperate cultures, heritages and races as it is a seperate ideal from ours which could lead alot of people in our new society astray.

NOTE: This is post number 500 for me! :)

[RedAnarchist]

As people will have more free time in an Anarchist society, there will be more time to learn another language, so this may help a lot.

[Exovedate]

Remember there are seven main languages in the world spoken by large populations of humans these include Arabic (Spoken by most Muslims who are members of the worlds second largest Religion), Chinese (The most spoken language in the world as China has the largest population in the world), English (The second most used language in the world and the language used for most official things in the international community), French (Former parts of their old large empire still speak French as their official language), Hindi (Spoken by most Indians as it is India's official language and India has a very large population), Russian (Spoken by people who are apart of the biggest country in the world Russia.

I realize that devrimankara sort of pointed this out already, but there is no language called "Chinese". The two main languages spoken in China are Cantonese (in Hong Kong) and Mandarin (on the mainland). Just thought I should point that out.

[RGacky3]

Heritage! You do know that absurd and reactionary ideas such as heritage will simply die out in our new society? The fact is heritage has been successfully used by the Bourgeoisie and Nationalists for their racist ideals and to keep the power they have and the Proletariat divided into made up "races" and "cultures". As history has shown heritage often leads to racial seperatism and seperate cultures and thus nations which will fragment our society and endanger the revolution even futher! All in all we on the left should destroy the idea of seperate cultures, heritages and races as it is a seperate ideal from ours which could lead alot of people in our new society astray.

Well many people value their heretige and their language. Language, like Culture is something that happens naturally and should not be, and really cannot be forced, it just developes.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:30 pm
Heritage! You do know that absurd and reactionary ideas such as heritage will simply die out in our new society? The fact is heritage has been successfully used by the Bourgeoisie and Nationalists for their racist ideals and to keep the power they have and the Proletariat divided into made up "races" and "cultures". As history has shown heritage often leads to racial seperatism and seperate cultures and thus nations which will fragment our society and endanger the revolution even futher! All in all we on the left should destroy the idea of seperate cultures, heritages and races as it is a seperate ideal from ours which could lead alot of people in our new society astray.


I have a lot of sympathy with the ideas expressed here. I certainly don't think that as communists we would support the idea of 'heritage'. The fact remains though that we are talking about languages spoken by tens of millions of people, and they will not just die out. People will continue to use them because they are the langauge that they and everybody in their society speaks.

Devrim

[MarxSchmarx]

Language, like Culture is something that happens naturally and should not be, and really cannot be forced, it just developes.

Have you been to Quebec or Israel, where dying languages were effectively willed back into existence?

Nevertheless, I think it will take a few centuries to dislodge English from dominance. Things like software are effectively written universally in English, and think of all the volumes of scientific works that are written in English.

My guess is that even in an anarchist society, English will remain the de facto lingua franca. A good analogy might be the metric system. Local weights and measures will be retained, but everyone will be conversant in it.

Indeed, given that the anglo-saxon countries won't have the global privileges they enjoy today, English would be like Latin in Medieval Europe. Probably English as spoken in the anglo-saxon countries will evolve too.

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 12:30 pm
OR:
A one language program was attempted (See Esperanto) and really never caught on. I for one think it is sort of an absurd idea, and crushes feelings of heritage.
Heritage! You do know that absurd and reactionary ideas such as heritage will simply die out in our new society? The fact is heritage has been successfully used by the Bourgeoisie and Nationalists for their racist ideals and to keep the power they have and the Proletariat divided into made up "races" and "cultures". As history has shown heritage often leads to racial seperatism and seperate cultures and thus nations which will fragment our society and endanger the revolution even futher! All in all we on the left should destroy the idea of seperate cultures, heritages and races as it is a seperate ideal from ours which could lead alot of people in our new society astray.

NOTE: This is post number 500 for me! :)
Not the best post though :)

Red_Anarchist:

As people will have more free time in an Anarchist society, there will be more time to learn another language, so this may help a lot.

This post much better.


As i know the languages are "live" thing and through the time they transform, change word's meanings, pronunciation, etc.

For example, before appearing English, French and German languages there was the Latin; Russian and Ukrainian languages were as one language and so on.

The people is creator of any language. And it means how much difficult to forbid one language and to implant different language by State policy.

Every language contains its own cultural heritage but cultural heritage of every language is property of all humanity of the Earth.
Reciprocal penetration of the best part of national culture to other language there was, ... is, and will be always.

There is no reason for us to solve this problem for future population, they will solve it better.

Nevertheless learn foreign language(s) - it trains brain and makes retentive memory :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

Ive just started a thread in theory about esperanto, which is the only international language by definition.

[Dawkinista!]

Heritage! You do know that absurd and reactionary ideas such as heritage will simply die out in our new society? The fact is heritage has been successfully used by the Bourgeoisie and Nationalists for their racist ideals and to keep the power they have and the Proletariat divided into made up "races" and "cultures". As history has shown heritage often leads to racial seperatism and seperate cultures and thus nations which will fragment our society and endanger the revolution even futher! All in all we on the left should destroy the idea of seperate cultures, heritages and races as it is a seperate ideal from ours which could lead alot of people in our new society astray.

Man that pretty much goes in conflict with all of my ideals as a leftist. Culture, art and heritage should be valued in a communist/socialist/anarchist society! You just sound like an extreme Stalinist to me...

Remember that a leftist society should emphasize on individual value and social progressivism! Yes, racism still exists but we should fight it and not try to supress it by eliminating all cultural heritage we know just to create some kind of super-culture.

Culture includes art, literature, music and language! nothing is worth enough to sacrifice these beautiful things! I'd prefer to die than to live somewhere that has abandoned these values!

I am German but i speak 5 languages fluently (German English Spanish French and Italian, am currently learning russian and portuguese). And its a joy to know all of these languages for all of them represent so much of the country and its unique individual culture to me. Individuality has a lot in common with freedom, and that may just be the most important thing we possess! The role of a leftist state is to uphold all of these values! Not to strike them down!

But if it really should come down to having to choose a universal language then English 100%, but I agree with the guy that said we should keep individual languages but learn English on an excellent level as well.

Now if you'll excuse me I'll go and have myself some Red Alert 2 (Every time I take down tanya its a little victory for me =)

BTW whats with that apparent "split" of revleft?? (the rebel alliance and all that ---> http://www.redapollo.org/wiki/index.php/Re...Rebel_Alliance) (http://www.redapollo.org/wiki/index.php/RevolutionaryLeft.com#The_Rebel_Alliance))

[luxemburg89]

There are so many beautiful languages out there that it would break my heart to see any of them lost. I hate the idea of a universal language because it will be English, we all know that really, and I do not really want to have to speak English ALL the time. I think particular regions will maintain their languages but economic, political and social barriers will be gone. There are those who argue that English enforcing itself on other cultures as a language is a form of Imperialism, though it is still a raw argument. Anyway, I hope all languages are kept - as language has a direct effect on literature - and the wealth of literature the world has is unbelievable - and the diverse languages are partly thanks to this.

[syndicat]

The dominance of English was itself an effect of the imperialist power of the Anglo-Saxon countries. Trying to get rid of languages is a form of cultural imperialism. A more equal distribution of resources and greater regional self-determination (not being subject to imperialism and capitalist power) might tend to favor continued life for languages of smaller language groups. It should really be up to the speakers of a language to determine if it is useful and desireable to them to continue that language.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:18 pm
There are so many beautiful languages out there that it would break my heart to see any of them lost.
What makes a language beautiful, or do you think that all languages are intrinsically beautiful?
Apparently, one language dies every two weeks. Can anything be done to prevent it? Should anything be done to prevent it?
I am very weary of minority language movements as they are almost invariably tied to some form of nationalism.
Devrim

[Dawkinista!]

All languages are beautiful in their own way and in a sense have their own characteristics. e.g. Portuguese is a language that is like water: it flows off your tongue and is light and cheerful. German is a "hard" language, like stone it sounds, but I find it makes poetry and literature all the more beautiful.

And about your argument that one language dies every two weeks... I think that we can compare this to the Evolution Theory, or Survival of the Fittest, a language dies out when its people and culture die out. This is a natural process, and we should not hinder it. Which means that we should not interfere and try to eradicate a language. That's not only pointless (as in what the hell will this affect positively in a proletarian revolution , or leftist state), but also opressive, intolerant bullshit.

A language is also a form of expression you know, and to stop someone from using the language he or she chooses to use sounds pretty much like extremist idiocy to me.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Dawkinista!+September 27, 2007 10:16 pm--> (Dawkinista! @ September 27, 2007 10:16 pm) A language is also a form of expression you know, and to stop someone from using the language he or she chooses to use sounds pretty much like extremist idiocy to me. [/b]
I haven't argued for this at any point. In fact I would argue strongly against it. I live in a country where for many years people were forbidden to speak their own language on pain of imprisonment, even in their own home.

What I said was that language movements are often aligned to nationalist ones.


Dawkinista!
And about your argument that one language dies every two weeks... I think that we can compare this to the Evolution Theory, or Survival of the Fittest, a language dies out when its people and culture die out

I think the thing about one language every two weeks is a fact. On the comparison to evolutionary theory, I think that there is a basic flaw in your argument in that suggests that a language survives, or dies due to its 'fitness' whereas in reality in survives, or dies in relation to the success of its users.

Unless you are arguing that the English speakers have been successful because of some part of their language then your argument falls.

Devrim

[Dawkinista!]

I didn't say you were wrong about the disappearance of one language every two weeks, it seems plausible, as there are so many dialects or local languages everywhere.


a language survives, or dies due to its 'fitness' whereas in reality in survives, or dies in relation to the success of its users.

Thats just another way of formulating


a language dies out when its people and culture die out

What I mean is that a language only dies when its people die. This is linked and therefore, we cannot "eliminate" a language without having to do the same to its speakers.

In other words, forcing a universal language onto the population of a leftist state, is just unnatural, and will bring severe repercussions.

On the other hand, TEACHING a second (universal) language, next to the native tongue, will overcome the "language barriers" far easier than the first option.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Dawkinista!+September 28, 2007 08:46 am--> (Dawkinista! @ September 28, 2007 08:46 am) In other words, forcing a universal language onto the population of a leftist state, is just unnatural, and will bring severe repercussions.

[/b]
Yes, I am not sure why you are arguing this against me though. I have never suggested it. All that I said was that I am weary of talk of culture, and heritage as it usually is linked to nationalism. I certainly haven't even called for one language.


Originally posted by Dawkinista!@
What I mean is that a language only dies when its people die. This is linked and therefore, we cannot "eliminate" a language without having to do the same to its speakers.

It is not actually true though, is it? None of the next generation in my family speak the language of my grand parents. This hasn't happened through elimination of peoples, but as a process.


Dawkinista!

a language survives, or dies due to its 'fitness' whereas in reality in survives, or dies in relation to the success of its users.

Thats just another way of formulating


a language dies out when its people and culture die out


Going back to your Darwinian point, which I presume is of interest to you with that user name, I think that there is no selection for languages based on the fitness of the languages themselves.

Devrim

[Janus]

Will there only be one language (For instance English) which all humans regardless of race or former nationality will speak?
Rather than having only one lingua franca, an alternative solution may be to emphasize learning multiple popular languages at an early age. This would bypass the issue of choosing a specific international language and ensure a greater degree of linguistic variety.