Communist League

[Die Neue Zeit]

OK, so I understand that the Communist League accepts "workers only," but given the symbols used by the League, what about peasants (and their First World counterparts)? Are they the exception to the rule prohibiting petit-bourgeois folks from joining?

[Severian]

There've been a lot of other threads discussing this organization, which basically exists only on the internet and maybe in Detroit, anyway. Do a search.

If it exists even there, anymore:
Statement by a few of its "founding members" declaring the organization dissolved. (http://www.communistleague.org/)

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Yikes! Sexism?! :(

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:35 am
There've been a lot of other threads discussing this organization, which basically exists only on the internet and maybe in Detroit, anyway. Do a search.

Heh, I'm surprized Severian reads the CL page still, I don't even do so anymore. This is the first I've heard.


which basically exists only on the internet and maybe in Detroit, anyway. Do a search.
For me, who is not in Detriot, yes it did. (Had I any idea what went on in Detriot? No.)
And thats one of the reasons why I quit the CL.

I knew it would fall apart. You can't base a movement on the web, you have to start locally and move from there-- then you go on the web. If you base everything on the web, you litterally can't see you'r memberaship, who they are what they think ect. ect.

Now for the article.


Basic Principles have been compromised in the name of expediency and get-rich-quick schemes. In effect, the actions of a section of the membership have dashed the League against the rocks, and the choice facing the League is now either to allow the organization to sink into ruin or to take emergency action to repair the damage.

The Basic Principles, however very long winded, were very basic of an organization, it really didn't take into account the splits of the movements in the past, and that everyone to some degree agrees with split(s) for whatever reason.
Splits on one hand are bad because they create a cleavage in the movement, sects, but on the otherhand when different tendencies can't be helped-- theres a clarity of vision for whatever tendency you ended up in. Somethings are just outdated, especially in my opinion in this stage of imperialism. The other main problem was, besides very little personal interaction, was people of different tendencies were joining the league. The league didn't try to create something new, to make people abandon their previous tendencies, even if it did, the CL would be of a different tendency.


In the last months following the First Constitutional Convention of the League, however, a section of the membership, trained in the schools of petty-bourgeois socialism and still adhering to those methods and practices, have attempted to transform the League into a clone of those organizations.

Again not taking into account the different historical tendencies.


They have not only advocated a fundamental shift in our practice, away from communist activism and toward the method of a leftist pressure group on the ruling class, but they have also tossed aside the Rules aside in favor of personalism, gossip and infantile methods of argument

That was a result because of Frontism: If you remember the League supporting a SPUSA candidate in Detriot (who was running Green)-- the idea is that she would win, but would be allowed her seat, and an uproar would take place, and if you remember the CL supporting the IFC (which is a front for the Worker-Communists of Iraq). You can even see frontism taking place on an IFC pdf paper, where CLers are holding IFC signs and if you look closely you'll see the CL logo printed very small on the bottom-- pretty cheesey.
look on page 3 of the PDF (http://www.ifcongress.com/English/Newspaper/IFCE/IFCE-12.pdf)
If you scroll down to page 4, and look at the bottom, you will notice an editor by the name of "Henry Miles".

Frontism is confusing, you're using pressure methods to achieve revolutionary means. People get the message confused, opportunists join the ranks, and you end up being a pressure group.


But organizational violations were not the only breaches made by these members in their drive to make the League something it could not be. In fact, the organizational violations were symptoms of deeper political divisions within the League. Key political questions emerged that were fundamental violations of the Basic Principles of the organization. The most egregious of these was the open embracing of sexism by these members. Some of these members made blatantly sexist and misogynistic comments, twisted efforts at combating sexism into acts of sexism in order to cover their own anti-woman attacks, and consciously sought to drive a leading woman comrade out of the League on a personalistic basis

That's what happens when most of the movement in based in cyber-space, you don't really know your members, and then something surfaces after a period of time. I wonder if this meeting took place on-line. (Much like the time a Mexican Anarchist was reported to be at a meeting on a CL document after a discussion took place on Rev-Left, through a thread).


The disruptive actions of certain current and former members, working in alliance with petty-bourgeois socialist sects to undermine the League and its work, have reached a point where it is now necessary to act. Further inaction will only lead to the final collapse of the organization.

What action will be taken? The blocking of such people from AIM, or ICQ?


The P.O.C. will make a thorough review of the current internal situation, assessing the mistakes and Rules violations that have occurred, in order to submit a recommendation on changes to make to the Rules at a Reorganization Convention of the Communist League, which shall be convened in the next three months.

Whats the point, just euthanize the dying horse. Start a new with better principles,
stop writing all these pdfs over basic events and issues-- most people know what Communists think on events and issues, write theoretical stuff. Have an HTML archieve. If something is to be printed VIA the computer, be it a small agitation pamphlet that introduces people to the large propiganda piece on-line. The CL never had the resources to launch a paper. if you go on with PDF papers being written all the time, no one will distribute them. Finally, before signing anyone up hold public conferences, at a library or something. Make sure they are really interested in joining, and have expirence. If they don't have expirience, help them gain it. Don't count on a person you met on cyber-space to meet others in real life.


We refuse to let the political and organizational basis of the League be dictated by outside interests. We refuse to bow to the personalistic ambitions and whims of certain members that see compromise with elements of the exploiting and oppressing classes as a road to popularity and personal glory. We refuse to accept the transformation of the League from a proletarian communist organization into a petty-bourgeois socialist confessional sect.

Why was the CL dictated by outside interests? For one thing, there were multi-tendencies the league allied with, and ignored such historic tendencies. So members of other organizations with strong tendencies joined the league, with the intentions of signing up CLers. The league was guilty of the same thing. Remember when Ricardo Santiago of FPM went to jail? The League thought the FPM would dissolve, and that it's members would join the CL. It didn't count on the FPM using this incident for recruitment.

I knew this would happen.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Heh, I'm surprized Severian reads the CL page still, I don't even do so anymore.

I pointed it out to him, after a former CLer pointed it out to me.

[communick]

The statement on the League website is total bullshit.

The real membership of the Communist League has booted the clowns in Detroit who would rather spend their time playing Second Life than organizing in real life.

The Communist League is a real organization, in spite of its founders

If people take the time to cut through all the bullshit, what can be seen with this attempted dissolution of the Communist League is an an exercise in bourgeois property rights. The 2 founders of the League (to be named later) and their sycophant known here as lonered are trying to take their ball and go home because they don't like internal democracy. Just like capitalists, they seek to privately own a collective product just because it was their idea in the beginning.

Stay tuned for a new website and publications. Also, if you were a part of the Communist League in the past and were alienated by Miles aka Stone aka... please get in touch. Do to his overcentralization of the organization, we don't know why people left in the past or how to contact them.

[communick]

Contrary to what has been published on the hijacked Communist League website, the Communist League is not dissolving.

The short story is that the membership of the League has decided to exercise democratic control over our organization and our personal "Bob Avakian" known as Miles/Stone resigned before we could expell him. He took two members with him and he can have them.

The statement now posted on the Communist League website can be summed up in one sentence - "I'm taking my ball and going home."

The actual membership of the Communist League is currently drafting a statement to give our version of events and we will post it soon.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 07:10 pm
Stay tuned for a new website and publications. Also, if you were a part of the Communist League in the past and were alienated by Miles aka Stone aka... please get in touch. Do to his overcentralization of the organization, we don't know why people left in the past or how to contact them.
Publish the new website, let me see what your direction and principles are, if I agree-- then I'll contact you.

What do you even mean by cenralization? If you mean miles was behind it all, I get that. But, really it seemed pretty decentralized, because no one knew who anyone was. Total animity.

[cenv]

communick is spot on.

As far as overcentralization, "Miles" still controlled the entire organization in practice. You say that no one knew who anyone was, but I think it's worth noting that as time went on, it became more and more evident that certain comrades (*glances at "Miles"*) had reason to hide their identities. "Miles"'s tight grip on the organization really became evident and things blew up when the League's membership began considering removing him from his position as editor... and possibly removing the position of editor altogether. More information will be released once the League finalizes a statement about Miles' split.

For now, the "new" website is really the same as the "old" website. It can be accessed via any of the following URLs:

http://comleague.org
http://communist-league.com
http://communist-league.net

It's just that "Miles" hijacked the "communistleague.org" URL.

Anyway, I think anyone who can read between the lines can easily see what "Miles" is trying to accomplish with his statement (which, by the way, is full of factual inaccuracies).

[cenv]

Exactly.

And if anyone is inclined to take Miles' antics seriously... just ask yourself what kind of member, after a month or so of playing "Second Life" instead of engaging in political activity, would suddenly decide to singlehandedly "reorganize" an organization that is supposed to function democratically?

I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote about it here (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=71078)...

But I do want to say that you can stay tuned to the CL's actual website -- not Miles' hijacked copy -- for updates:

http://comleague.org

Due to Miles's attempts to tear apart the organization, we're going through some tough times in the CL, but hopefully we can get comrades to support our attempts to turn the CL into a more democratic and action-oriented organization -- even those comrades who were put off from the League by the way "Miles" ran things in the past.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

(I merged the two recent threads on the CL)

I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I want to weigh in.

I'd hate to be patronizing here (seriously), but this is the sort of thing some of us in the FPM saw coming as we ceased our limited work with the CL. A lot of this is very similar to what happened then.

In our statement on that, we wrote (Keep in mind, that all our contacts were facilitated through 'Miles.'):

"One is the CL’s abuse of class definitions. It is normal practice for members of the CL to refer to any and all political opponents as petty bourgeois, regardless of their actual class background. We have personally witnessed this several times. Someone would raise a political criticism of the CL or the actions of one of its members only to be written off as petty bourgeois"

This can be seen in the statement out of Detroit which states "In the last months following the First Constitutional Convention of the League, however, a section of the membership, trained in the schools of petty-bourgeois socialism and still adhering to those methods and practices, have attempted to transform the League into a clone of those organizations," "We refuse to accept the transformation of the League from a proletarian communist organization into a petty-bourgeois socialist confessional sect," etc.

So, comrades who tried to push "Miles" out of his leadership position, which we can only assume were previously considered proletarian communists (as those are the only folks that are supposed to be in the organization to begin with), are now "petty-bourgeois socialists."

Petty-bourgeois socialism is a real trend, but comrades don't become a part of it because they move against one person, or group, inside an organization.

In our statement, we also wrote "We recognize that the CL contains a number of good, and dedicated comrades. We can only hope they are not turned off to politics forever by the treacherous acts of other members, and the bitter sectarianism of their leaders (who are famous for exactly that)..."


You say that no one knew who anyone was, but I think it's worth noting that as time went on, it became more and more evident that certain comrades (*glances at "Miles"*) had reason to hide their identities.

Something else we pointed out in our statement:

"We’ve already described the “clandestine” nature of the CL, which is one way it has isolated itself (and our experience in working with the CL suggests that the decision to be “clandestine” has more to do with hiding the political history of their founders from other workers and leftists than it does defending itself from attacks by the state)."

This first became clear at a picket in Detroit, when "Miles" told FPM comrades to refer to him by one name if members of a certain sect came around, and by another if others came.

There are sometimes reasons that folks need to use different names and such (for example, hiding from the state), but hiding from former comrades is not one of them.


(which, by the way, is full of factual inaccuracies).

Sort of like the things "Miles" wrote about the FPM, and some of its individual members?

I'm genuinely sorry that it took all of this for some comrades to see the reality of the Detroit clique (CLers should know who I'm talking about here).

Their political history speaks for itself (which is probably why they want to keep that a secret).


"Miles" hijacked the "communistleague.org" URL.

Funny that he really did that, while he previously (and falsely) accused us of hijacking the IWPA site.


a month or so of playing "Second Life" instead of engaging in political activity

Something else we mentioned in our statement: "The fact that so much of the CL’s work, and even its very existence, are so tied in with “cyberspace,” further demonstrates just how isolated from the class struggle they are. We are not opposed to utilizing the internet as an effective means of communication, but the CL seems to carry out internet work as an alternative to work in the “real world”...."


Originally posted by Detroit statement
The most egregious of these was the open embracing of sexism by these members. Some of these members made blatantly sexist and misogynistic comments, twisted efforts at combating sexism into acts of sexism in order to cover their own anti-woman attacks, and consciously sought to drive a leading woman comrade out of the League on a personalistic basis. At the same time, other elements among this group who had previously attempted to posture as anti-sexist showed just how shallow their anti-sexism was when they forged a rotten bloc with these sexists and misogynists, apologizing for and excusing their actions.

Again, this is funny to hear coming from a guy who trashed us for publicly criticizing CL comrades for sexism and anti-Semitism. In our statement, we wrote:

"It seems that more than a few members of the CL, at least among those who participate in political discussions and debates on the internet, have a tendency to make sexist and/or anti-Semitic comments (we base this on the fact that such things occurred more than a few times). It is the policy of the owners and moderators of most internet discussion boards to either warn persons who make such comments, or in some cases, revoke their ability to participate entirely. In a few of the cases in which members of the CL made sexist and/or anti-Semitic comments, members of our organization have publicly criticized them.

"Apparently, this seriously offended several members of the CL who, in a letter dated October 18, 2006, accused “certain comrades of the FPM” of “contribut[ing] to ... a campaign of provocation and baiting that has sought to turn contradictions in method into entrenched positions ... [making] the educational and corrective process
more difficult.”

I have to wonder if the "leading woman comrade" isn't the co-founder of the CL. It's not really important either way, if CL comrades don't want to say, but it just seems likely, knowing some of her history in different groups.

* * *

Bottom line, it's good to see some comrades being proactive here. Hopefully you don't have too many problems, and can get back to organizing.

Some FPM comrades with the SDTWM contingent ran into to some comrades handing out CL lit at the recent demo in DC, btw.. no sure who they were, just thought I would mention it.

[Rawthentic]

Those DC comrades are not part of the Detroit clique, they are the opposite.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This I know.

[Rawthentic]

The only people with the Detroit clique are Miles, Robin, and some inactive freak from Arizona.

I wish I would have known all of this before, CdL. ;)

[Martin Blank]

Nice to see that there is something that can unite the petty-bourgeois left -- hatred for workers seeking to organize themselves. Maybe if these left-wing poster boys (stress "boys") were less concerned about their own image and glory, they might have not found themselves outside of the League for violating the Rules they voted for only a month previous.

They can whine all they want about the fact that the veterans of the League decided to take their organization back. It won't stop us from holding the Reorganization Convention, publishing WPA and WR, recruiting the contacts we have, chartering the new Circles that are being organized, and moving forward.

The opportunists can hold hands with UFPJ, have their little love-in on stage and beg the ruling class to "stop the war" or "bring the troops home now (please?)". It fits them well.

I give these charlatans six months to a year before one of three things happens: they merge with another petty-bourgeois left group; they transform into a confessional sect; or, they blow apart due to incompetence and unprincipled combination. Then again, they could undergo a combination of these three things. Anyway, regardless of how it goes, it couldn't happen to a more deserving clique of agents provocateurs, snitches and gossip-mongers.

Miles

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Forgive me, but what does 'second life' mean?

And if the CL has split, I am really sorry to hear it (no I am not being sarcastic); it is not easy to see my prediction come true that no organisation committed to DM can avoid fragmentation.

I wish it were otherwise.

Only the bosses can benefit from our quarrels and splits.

Miles:


Nice to see that there is something that can unite the petty-bourgeois left -- hatred for workers seeking to organize themselves. Maybe if these left-wing poster boys (stress "boys") were less concerned about their own image and glory, they might have not found themselves outside of the League for violating the Rules they voted for only a month previous.

It is really sad to see a working class revolutionary group split, especially in the USA!!.

I can only wish you all the best in rebuilding among other workers.

And, despite our differences, I am 100% sincere in that!

[Devrim]

Can somebody explain the basic facts of what happened here without flinging insults at the other side?

Is it in anyway political?

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Second Life is some sort of virtual world where you can make your character and chat with other people.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Marmot, thanks for that!

However, I fail to see how this is relevant to the split.

[communick]

Second Life is relevant because Miles has been spending all of his time playing in Second Life instead of doing real work for the League.

Recently, he said he was doing some inmportant work with Italian IBM workers. It turned out to be a "virtual" strike on Second Life!

This is all he has done in months.

This "split", if you can even call it that, is mainly based on the fact that Miles has been paralyzed by a fascination with "virtual" organizing and that he (and a couple of others) have been hiding behind clandestinity to obscure their past from the League membership. Everybody in Detroit knows Miles real name and his association with the Communist League. Only the League members themselves were denied the opportunity to check out Miles shady political past.

As for the allegations of sexism- Miles has admittedly been making his wife do all of the housework while he sits in front of the computer. He has now projected his own patriarchial ways onto the League as a whole by claiming that we wanted his wife to be housekeeper for the League. He is trying to blame us for his own fucked-upedness.

When the Communist League (that is the majority of the membership) publishes our version of events then everybody will know the deal. Miles is a professional sectarian with a long history of shadiness. The truth will be known by all.

[communick]

Is this political?

Well, that depends on if you consider democratic control of an organization political.

The internal democracy of the League was all good until the membership turned against the founders.

The question is- are the founders of a democratically run communist organization exempt from their own rules? Miles say yes, the membership says no.

Miles wants to "own" the Communist League. For all his talk about the PB, his attempt to exercise ownership is rather bourgeois.

[blackstone]

The virtual strike, did give me a chuckle.

[AmbitiousHedonism]

This is the best thread since the discussion on the cultism of the RCP.

[Entrails Konfetti]

So in other words Miles took his ball home, you'll just have to get a new one, and everything will be the same as always.

<_<

Meh, who cares.

[RNK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 08:33 pm
This is the best thread since the discussion on the cultism of the RCP.
I agree&#33; This is fucking fantastic.

Not because it&#39;s a communist organization that I respect splitting up (it&#39;s a damned shame and I agree completely with what Rosa said), but because it&#39;s just so damn interesting and dramatic... quick, someone turn up dead in an alley&#33;

Miles, is it true that you are an MMORPG junkie and organized a strike in Second Life???

communick, is it true that you are a boy?&#33;?&#33;

[Pawn Power]

How many members does the CL actually have?

[cenv]

CdL, thanks for your support.

I don&#39;t have much to add to communick&#39;s comments, but I do want to point out how ridiculous Miles&#39; attempts to save face are. Apparently, he, his partner, and their puppet from Arizona are now "the veterans of the League," and the vast majority of League members are now "petty-bourgeois," "opportunists," "charlatans," and even "agents-provocateurs."

RNK, I can assure you that the majority of League members are workers with regular jobs. Of course, there are some working-class students as well.

Finally, I think everyone should realize that this isn&#39;t exactly the huge split it&#39;s made out to be. "Miles" left the League and took his partner and, as LftP put it, "some inactive freak from Arizona" with him. It&#39;s just that he&#39;s hijacked one of the League&#39;s domain and thrown such a tantrum about things -- even trying to declare himself the Communist League -- that it appears to be much bigger than it really is. In truth, the League&#39;s membership recognizes "Miles" and his antics for what they are... as, it seems, do pretty much all communists who know him well.

One seriously wonders why "Miles" is wasting his time trying to sell people this crap when everyone with half a brain can see right through him.

[Entrails Konfetti]

So what are you going to do differently?

[cenv]

I have a feeling a lot of things will be changing now that we don&#39;t have someone choking the organization. However, I can&#39;t give you anything specific right now... until now, our struggle has been trying to establish internal democracy and deal with Miles&#39; repeated attempts to tear the organization apart. Now we can focus on organizing a Convention where we will decide on what to do differently and what the path forward is.

So basically, what we&#39;re going to do differently is whatever we, as members, decide to do differently, and we won&#39;t know what that is until after we&#39;ve had a Convention.

As a former League member, though, do you have any suggestions EK?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Nobody&#39;s answering my original question, and how it fits (or otherwise) into the reorganization schema regarding a ban on petit-bourgeois folks from joining (I&#39;m not one such person, though). :huh:

[Probably very little "peasant" demographic in the First World, anyway.]

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 05:13 am
^^^ Nobody&#39;s answering my original question, and how it fits (or otherwise) into the reorganization schema regarding a ban on petit-bourgeois folks from joining (I&#39;m not one such person, though). :huh:

[Probably very little "peasant" demographic in the First World, anyway.]
That will teach you. You ask a simple question about the peasantry, and a whole organisation blows up in you face. :o

Can you ask it to the RCP next. :ph34r:

Devrim

[RNK]

Originally posted by devrimankara+September 21, 2007 08:55 am--> (devrimankara @ September 21, 2007 08:55 am)
[email protected] 21, 2007 05:13 am
^^^ Nobody&#39;s answering my original question, and how it fits (or otherwise) into the reorganization schema regarding a ban on petit-bourgeois folks from joining (I&#39;m not one such person, though). :huh:

[Probably very little "peasant" demographic in the First World, anyway.]
That will teach you. You ask a simple question about the peasantry, and a whole organisation blows up in you face. :o

Can you ask it to the RCP next. :ph34r:

Devrim [/b]
LOL&#33;

Anyway it&#39;s unfortunate to see a good organization go down in flames. I only hope that the majority members re-establish themselves and that some amicable solution can be agreed upon -- and that both "sides" in this conflict exercise humility and self-criticism, and accept criticisms from others.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Communick, thanks for that, but it does not sound like Miles to me.

Are you sure of your facts?

And, how can you possibly know the other stuff? Looks like tittle-tattle to me.

Don&#39;t get me wrong, but it is harldy political, even if correct.

And the democratic control stuff is nothing new.

Every single group on the far left complains of the same thing.

We just do not know how to set up and maintain demcratic centralist parties.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

cenv, good luck in that -- and do not get me wrong either -- I predict another split, and another...

[Hope I am wrong though&#33;&#33;&#33;]

It&#39;s the only thing we are good at these days.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What is the Communist Leauge&#39;s view on the USSR, China, DDR, Cuba, Vietnam etc. etc.


He has now projected his own patriarchial ways onto the League as a whole by claiming that we wanted his wife to be housekeeper for the League.

Do you have proof?

[Leo]

What is the Communist Leauge&#39;s view on the USSR, China, DDR, Cuba, Vietnam etc. etc.

None. The CL had a laissez-faire system towards the political beliefs of it&#39;s members.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by RNK+September 21, 2007 12:13 pm--> (RNK @ September 21, 2007 12:13 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 08:55 am

[email protected] 21, 2007 05:13 am
^^^ Nobody&#39;s answering my original question, and how it fits (or otherwise) into the reorganization schema regarding a ban on petit-bourgeois folks from joining (I&#39;m not one such person, though). :huh:

[Probably very little "peasant" demographic in the First World, anyway.]
That will teach you. You ask a simple question about the peasantry, and a whole organisation blows up in you face. :o

Can you ask it to the RCP next. :ph34r:

Devrim
LOL&#33;

Anyway it&#39;s unfortunate to see a good organization go down in flames. I only hope that the majority members re-establish themselves and that some amicable solution can be agreed upon -- and that both "sides" in this conflict exercise humility and self-criticism, and accept criticisms from others. [/b]
What do you mean good organization. I never heard of them outside of this thread. Are they popular in their areas they are active in?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 22, 2007 06:38 pm

What is the Communist Leauge&#39;s view on the USSR, China, DDR, Cuba, Vietnam etc. etc.

None. The CL had a laissez-faire system towards the political beliefs of it&#39;s members.
Pretty much, although there were "official" positions on the USSR, Cuba, and the like, but members didn&#39;t have to uphold them. There wouldn&#39;t have been such confusion if the principles weren&#39;t so basic, and interpretative, for example the one about the making of a workers&#39; republic, a pro-Castro member could very well say Cuba was a Workers Republic, while someone else could say DPRNK, or Bavaria in 1918. So this laissez-fair system of political beliefs occured because nothing went into defining the the principles: Workers Republics, Pette-Bourgeois Communists, ect.

[RNK]

Originally posted by blackstone+September 25, 2007 01:09 pm--> (blackstone @ September 25, 2007 01:09 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 12:13 pm

Originally posted by [email protected] 21, 2007 08:55 am

[email protected] 21, 2007 05:13 am
^^^ Nobody&#39;s answering my original question, and how it fits (or otherwise) into the reorganization schema regarding a ban on petit-bourgeois folks from joining (I&#39;m not one such person, though). :huh:

[Probably very little "peasant" demographic in the First World, anyway.]
That will teach you. You ask a simple question about the peasantry, and a whole organisation blows up in you face. :o

Can you ask it to the RCP next. :ph34r:

Devrim
LOL&#33;

Anyway it&#39;s unfortunate to see a good organization go down in flames. I only hope that the majority members re-establish themselves and that some amicable solution can be agreed upon -- and that both "sides" in this conflict exercise humility and self-criticism, and accept criticisms from others.
What do you mean good organization. I never heard of them outside of this thread. Are they popular in their areas they are active in? [/b]
No clue. I just know a few CL members from here and I respect them, and I respect the message the CL put forward.

[cenv]

Well, a document on the situation has been uploaded to the Communist League&#39;s website:

http://comleague.org / http://communist-league.com

[OneBrickOneVoice]

what the fuck??? Is this a fucking joke?? Are you saying that the CL collapsed because the Chair decided to play Second Life instead? This better be some kind of joke

[cenv]

Uh, no.

3 members split off from the CL and are trying to make it look like the rest of the CL doesn&#39;t exist anymore. The League has not "collapsed."

If you want to know what happened, I&#39;d suggest you check out the document on the League&#39;s (real) website ... the one I posted a link to above. Too much has happened to sum up in detail in a post.

[Janus]

Pretty much, although there were "official" positions on the USSR, Cuba, and the like, but members didn&#39;t have to uphold them.
But these views were decided upon by the membership based on analysis of the situation in those countries. There was no "party line" but the general conclusion was that workers didn&#39;t have direct control within those states. If you remember, it was this difference of opinion over Cuba that caused the original split with the FPM.

[rebelworker]

:lol: Lesson to all...

Dont try and organise a serrious revolutionary force based on the internet.

I never heard of the CL outside of revleft,

I never met any CL members outside of revleft...

No matter how relevant some of the things CL members had to say were, alot of time will be wasted because you folsk didnt engage in real life class struggle before the internet...

Centralised leadership is a serious theoretical and practical failure, this is not the first time something like this has happened (one or a small group of people have driven an org into crisis because of personal behavior).

People shit talk de centralised leadership alot, but it takes a real membership, based in local political work to build an organisation with revolutionary potential.
Apperantly all it takes is one guy with alot of free time on the internet to build a vangurad party...

I stand by the gist of this post, but it should be known I was shit faced when I wrote it

[The Advent of Anarchy]

Originally posted by Pawn [email protected] 21, 2007 01:08 am
How many members does the CL actually have?
100,000. =D

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 05:41 am

Pretty much, although there were "official" positions on the USSR, Cuba, and the like, but members didn&#39;t have to uphold them.
But these views were decided upon by the membership based on analysis of the situation in those countries. There was no "party line" but the general conclusion was that workers didn&#39;t have direct control within those states. If you remember, it was this difference of opinion over Cuba that caused the original split with the FPM.
I think that the CL had very few positions on anything. While they would claim that their basic principles were their positions, the basic principles said nothing of substance. Really it was a split waiting to happen.

Devrim

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 08:52 pm
what the fuck??? Is this a fucking joke?? Are you saying that the CL collapsed because the Chair decided to play Second Life instead? This better be some kind of joke
Of course it&#39;s a joke -- just like their entire "organization". They got chucked out for violating the Rules and now are attempting to pretend there is a "split". These wannabe poster boys realized there was no fame and glory to be had in organizing the working class, so they started stirring up shit in the League -- personal attacks, lies and slander, outing clandestine members, misogynistic attacks on opponents (e.g., calling us "****s"), etc.

When the C.C. said enough was enough, they attempted to overturn the Convention and remove the C.C. That&#39;s when we pulled the trigger, threw the rest of them out and began reorganization.

They like to think it was about Second Life. In fact, it was about Real Life and the kind of real organization that was to be built. We saw what kind of organization they wanted to build shortly after the Convention. They wanted another leftist sect that begs the capitalists to "stop the war (please?)" and is more interested in feel-good protests than actual working-class organizing, and they were willing to throw out the League&#39;s Basic Principles to make sweetheart deals with UFPJ and other liberal antiwar coalitions in order to achieve their ends. And when we decided to stand in their way of trashing the League, they showed they were willing to throw out the League&#39;s Rules.

The fact that while the GM strike was going on all they could do is piss and moan on the Leftist Trainspotters list -- the fact that while the GM strike was going on the only statement they could produce was about their being tossed out of the League -- speaks volumes about them and what kind of "organization" they really are.

And then there is the fact that one the two people mentioned repeatedly in their statement [obsess much?&#33;] that they directly linked to membership in the League has already resulted in one of them having problems at work. As far as we are concerned, these people are doing the work of the cops and should be (will be) treated as such.

(And, as an aside, we intend to enforce the copyright we hold on all logos, names and materials produced by the League between 2004 and when they were thrown out. We consider them a "pirates" and "plagiarists". Since we do not see them as a part of any kind of broader "workers movement", we have no problems pursuing legal action if these pirates attempt to hijack any of our publications.)

In the end, though, the real joke will be played on anyone stupid enough to support this gang of opportunists and snitches. They&#39;ve already shown their willingness to use lies, gossip and intimidation against those who disagree with them; there is no question they will use it in the future to keep those unfortunate to follow them in line.

While they&#39;ve been seething in their hatred of the League, we&#39;ve already produced another issue of WPA, intervened heavily in the GM strike alongside the Soldiers of Solidarity, started organizing another Convention, redesigned and relaunched the website, and have restored communication with many comrades both inside and outside of the League who are reactivating now that the infantile elements are gone.

They say that they plan to start making a lot of changes. We suspect the first will be to dump the class basis of the organization, and the second will be the communist position on Iraq (i.e., they will join with the other social democrats in supporting the Islamist theocratic "anti-imperialists"). Such principled positions are small prices to pay for fame and glory in the "official" movement -- that is, they are small prices to those who have no real principles to speak of.

Certainly, there will be things about which we are self-critical in the way some work was handled in the past -- especially in the past year or so. If there is one great mistake we made, it is that we brought in members too quickly and not on solid enough of a basis (a mistake that we are already moving to correct). And I think we paid for that over the last couple of months. The people in Richmond/D.C., Boston and Providence were simply not ready for prime time and preferred the tactics of the failed left.

As far as we&#39;re concerned, the left can have them.

There is only one Communist League -- the same one that was formed in 2004 and continues to this day. It is the same one that has produced Working People&#39;s Advocate, Workers&#39; Republic, The Worker [Communist], Liberation, De Werkelijkheid and Working People&#39;s Tribune. It is the same one that has been at www.communistleague.org (http://www.communistleague.org/) since that site was activated.

End of story. But, if for some reason you have questions, feel free to e-mail us.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 03:45 pm
Recently, he said he was doing some inmportant work with Italian IBM workers. It turned out to be a "virtual" strike on Second Life&#33;

This is all he has done in months.
A few little facts here:

First of all, I do participate in Second Life (actually, I&#39;m not the only member who does/did -- in fact, a few of those thrown out of the League were also participating), mainly as a means of outreach and discussion with self-described communists in other countries. I see it as similar to being here and talking with people, just in a more graphical format. The League has had a presence there since last May, and it never was a concern for these people until they started their campaign to trash the League and thought it could be used as a foil.

Second, during the time in question, I was actually working on there. That is, someone was paying me real money to help design and build their company&#39;s virtual presence on there. I earned about US&#036;300 for the work. I am still working there as a virtual builder, and I&#39;m making real money for the effort. A job is a job. (And, luckily, the people I&#39;ve been working for so far on there don&#39;t care that I am a communist, so I don&#39;t have to worry so much about losing the job because of these people outing me.)

Third, as for the virtual strike thing, for a while it was looking like there was going to be a real strike parallel to it, taking place in six cities in Italy and a couple in Germany. I was attempting to use the access I had to those workers as a means of conducting a long-distance political intervention to attempt to influence the direction and tactics of the strike (most of those involved were relatively new to the whole union and strike concept and asked for assistance). When it became clear that this was shaping up to be little more than a virtual strike, I backed off and concentrated on other things.

It should be said, though, that the one-day virtual strike was apparently enough to push IBM to give in to the workers&#39; demands. So, even though I was not involved in the core organizing in the weeks prior to the actual strike, the League now has good, comradely relations with IBM workers in Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, Britain, Canada and the U.S., and we are seen by these real-life workers as standing among the few supporters they had in their time of need.

For what it&#39;s worth, it puts us in a better position to build stronger links to class-conscious proletarians in the real world than we were in before, since now we can directly point to groups of working people in various European countries and ask, "Have you heard of the Communist League?" And their answer will be, "Yes."

This is what these snitches and agents sneer at.

Let&#39;s face facts, there are a lot of new technologies and means of communication out there. It doesn&#39;t hurt to explore their limits and the opportunities they present. It&#39;s a lot like how the Internet was seen a decade ago or so. Back in the early-mid 1990s, left groups used to laugh and sneer at the idea of having a website or an e-mail address, or using an e-mail list or (gasp&#33;) a web-based discussion forum.

But here we are.

Miles

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Miles+October 01, 2007 07:11 am--> (Miles @ October 01, 2007 07:11 am) misogynistic attacks on opponents (e.g., calling us "****s")
[/b]
This is a bit pathetic really.


Miles
(And, as an aside, we intend to enforce the copyright we hold on all logos, names and materials produced by the League between 2004 and when they were thrown out. We consider them a "pirates" and "plagiarists". Since we do not see them as a part of any kind of broader "workers movement", we have no problems pursuing legal action if these pirates attempt to hijack any of our publications.)

This is worse though.

Devrim

[Martin Blank]

A few more comments:


Originally posted by communick+September 20, 2007 03:45 pm--> (communick &#064; September 20, 2007 03:45 pm)Everybody in Detroit knows Miles real name and his association with the Communist League. Only the League members themselves were denied the opportunity to check out Miles shady political past.[/b]

Actually, I never hid my personal identity from anyone in the League. If you asked, you usually got the answer -- but not in a written form. If I was trying to hide my identity, would I have told you all about me when we met in person in D.C. last January? And, for that matter, why didn&#39;t it seem to bother you who I was until recently, when it became profitable to do so (i.e., after the offer from Boston UFPJ to speak on their platform)?


[email protected] 20, 2007 03:45 pm
As for the allegations of sexism- Miles has admittedly been making his wife do all of the housework while he sits in front of the computer. He has now projected his own patriarchial ways onto the League as a whole by claiming that we wanted his wife to be housekeeper for the League. He is trying to blame us for his own fucked-upedness.

Actually, it was my wife who first accused you of wanting her to be the housekeeper because you rejected my stepping away from some work in order to prevent that situation from happening. She told you that repeatedly. But you refused to listen to her, and then turned around and accused her of not being able to think for herself. Classic sexism.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 01, 2007 03:36 am--> (devrimankara &#064; October 01, 2007 03:36 am)This is a bit pathetic really.[/b]
I take it you don&#39;t see a problem with the use of such language. Now I understand why I stayed away from this place for as long as I have.


[email protected] 01, 2007 03:36 am
This is worse though.
Snitches and agents provocateurs deserve nothing -- especially not respect or solidarity.

Miles

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Miles+October 01, 2007 07:41 am--> (Miles @ October 01, 2007 07:41 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:36 am
This is a bit pathetic really.
I take it you don&#39;t see a problem with the use of such language. Now I understand why I stayed away from this place for as long as I have.


[/b]
Whatever.


Miles
This is worse though.
Snitches and agents provocateurs deserve nothing -- especially not respect or solidarity.[/b][/quote]

And the &#39;Communists&#39; run off to the bourgeois courts, do they?

Devrim

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by devrimankara+October 01, 2007 03:48 am--> (devrimankara &#064; October 01, 2007 03:48 am)
Miles
This is worse though.
Snitches and agents provocateurs deserve nothing -- especially not respect or solidarity.[/b]

And the &#39;Communists&#39; run off to the bourgeois courts, do they? [/b][/quote]
That is entirely up to them.

It is one thing when it is an organization that is a legitimate part of the "workers movement"; it is another thing entirely when it is a group of snitches and agents provocateur.

And, personally, I prefer other means of dealing with these glamor-seeking stool pigeons.

Miles

[Devrim]

Originally posted by Miles+October 01, 2007 09:12 am--> (Miles @ October 01, 2007 09:12 am)
Originally posted by devrimankara+October 01, 2007 03:48 am--> (devrimankara &#064; October 01, 2007 03:48 am)
Originally posted by Miles


[email protected] 01, 2007 03:36 am
This is worse though.
Snitches and agents provocateurs deserve nothing -- especially not respect or solidarity.

And the &#39;Communists&#39; run off to the bourgeois courts, do they? [/b]
That is entirely up to them.

[/b]
I was referring to you:


Miles
(And, as an aside, we intend to enforce the copyright we hold on all logos, names and materials produced by the League between 2004 and when they were thrown out. We consider them a "pirates" and "plagiarists". Since we do not see them as a part of any kind of broader "workers movement", we have no problems pursuing legal action if these pirates attempt to hijack any of our publications.)

Devrim

[Wanted Man]

Firstly: is it wrong for me to find this absolutely hilarious? In December, when the FPM and CL decided they&#39;d had enough, I said (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59469&view=findpost&p=1292220171) that there isn&#39;t much hope for a weird eclectic multi-tendency "back to Marx" group that applies a laissez-faire attitude to the ideological line of its members. Certainly not enough to label it "21st century socialism". Let&#39;s hope that whatever comes out of this quarrel will fare better.


Originally posted by Miles+October 01, 2007 08:11 am--> (Miles &#064; October 01, 2007 08:11 am) They wanted another leftist sect that begs the capitalists to "stop the war (please?)" and is more interested in feel-good protests than actual working-class organizing, and they were willing to throw out the League&#39;s Basic Principles to make sweetheart deals with UFPJ and other liberal antiwar coalitions in order to achieve their ends. [/b]
What about your own CPUSA past? Good reason to "stay clandestine"&#33; :lol:


[email protected] 01, 2007 08:30 am
So, even though I was not involved in the core organizing in the weeks prior to the actual strike, the League now has good, comradely relations with IBM workers in Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, Britain, Canada and the U.S., and we are seen by these real-life workers as standing among the few supporters they had in their time of need.
Belgium? Really? I&#39;ll be sure to ask around next time I&#39;m down south.

[blackstone]

I&#39;m sorry, i still can&#39;t get over the whole internet strike thing. :wub:

[Wanted Man]

Yes. Repent, ye sinners&#33; Your old methods don&#39;t work&#33; The best way to reach striking workers is Second Life&#33;

By the way, I like their Cafépress (http://www.cafepress.com/comleague/). I&#39;ve always wanted to buy a golf shirt with a hammer and sickle on it, or give my dog some cool CL gear to wear. When are you going to sell thongs, though? You see, there&#39;s this girl I like and I want to explain to her that communists have all the fun.


Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2007 02:50 pm
They can whine all they want about the fact that the veterans of the League decided to take their organization back.
What, like 3 people, all from one city? Long live internal democracy&#33;

[The Advent of Anarchy]

In September 2007, the Communist League faced its first major internal crisis. This struggle, unlike
many such incidents across the left, lacked a fundamental political basis, but was instead fought to
defend the organisation against the outlandish, eccentric and egotistical machinations of an extreme
minority. Upon losing the fight, this minority decided to circumvent the democratic process by
declaring itself a “Provisional Organising Committee” - in effect a legislative and executive organ
created against the will of the League itself. Since we refuse to bow to the authority of a handful of
people looking to dictate their own personal agendas to the majority, they have to all intents and
purposes separated themselves from the organisation. However, they continue to spread what are
little more than petty falsehoods and personal attacks; in the process utilising rather comical
pseudo-Marxian language in order to hide the shallow nature of their argument. Since they continue
to declare that they are in fact the Communist League itself - which if that were true would mean a
league of perhaps three or four people - a response is required; a response which we hope will settle
this matter once and for all.
Declaration of a Faction of the Communist League
"The Communist League has reached a point of crisis. The actions of a section of the membership
have succeeded in degrading the organization to a point where internal functioning has ceased, the
Rules have been bypassed and circumvented to the point where chaos and lack of discipline are
now the norm, and the Basic Principles have been compromised in the name of expediency and getrich-
quick schemes. In effect, the actions of a section of the membership have dashed the League
against the rocks, and the choice facing the League is now either to allow the organization to sink
into ruin or to take emergency action to repair the damage."
With the above statement, the anti-democratic minority of the Communist League declared in their
own words, what were in fact their own actions. They have effectively described the situation the
League faced while their minority was engaged in an unrelenting campaign to sabotage internal
democracy. Our majority, who ARE the members of the Communist League, denounce - in the
strongest possible terms - the deviousness of the three members who dare state that they are, in
fact, the League. It is truly a vile attempt to convince naive or possibly new and inexperienced
members to join what was a minority faction (now an organization claiming to be the League) under
the pretense that they are a genuine revolutionary force. To counter this attempt is the only reason
we have decided to let you know the identities of the faction of three. At no time was it any ones
desire or intention to "out" any of them. We do so here simply to prevent them from attempting to
further deceive the American left, as due to information obtained in the past few weeks, it would
seem they have utilized the tactics of intrigue and infiltration with other organizations in the past.
Background
As mentioned, the background to the recent turmoil did not involve anything even approaching
political divergence. At no point did the minority POC faction declare any kind of program, or even
opinion that went further than the most astonishing falsehoods regarding the character of the
comrades who opposed them. The struggle was fought purely over organizational matters, as in
internal democracy versus egomania and paranoia.
Over a period lasting roughly two months, our editor, [removed name] also known as [removed name] or
[removed name], did deliberately and maliciously refuse to work on our national League
publications. At a Central Committee meeting, he finally came forward regarding what he and his
partner, [removed name], called a "sexist dynamic". They then proceeded monopolizing the bulk of the
meeting to talking about their own personal issues, skirting over the fact that due to overcentralization
and a lack of accountability, the entire organization had ground to a halt. League
members offered to help [removed name] with the publications, so that he and [removed name]would hopefully
be able to start resolving their personal troubles. We were quite naturally concerned about their
situation, but felt that we were not given enough information to intervene in this particular domestic
dispute between members.
The Squelching of Democracy
One week later, no one had even heard from [removed name], much less been given a clear picture of the
status of our publications. We had not received the templates required for the layouts, which were
needed if anyone was to help shoulder the burden of editorial work. Due to this several members
discussed at our regular membership meeting ways in which we could continue publishing material
without having to put strain on [removed name] and [removed name]. [removed name] was present at this gathering but
[removed name] deemed he was too busy too attend. None the less possible options were discussed as to
what could be done to edit and publish our material - which included a motion on disbanding the
position of League editor and holding elections for an editorial board. At this point, [removed name]
immediately left the meeting. Soon after this, [removed name]appeared and accused us of sexist behavior
in front of his partner, along with “driving a female comrade” out of the meeting - to the great
confusion of all who were still present. It cannot be stressed enough that such an accusation has no
basis in reality, and exists purely in the minds of [removed name] and [removed name]. Due to their repeated
slandering of the League, which now includes calling us “woman haters” among other things, we
again state that there is no basis to such statements, and challenge [removed name] to provide evidence
of such behavior. We are fully confident that he cannot, as no such evidence exists, due to the
simple fact that such an occurrence never took place.
After a heated argument, [removed name] resigned as editor, in the process declaring his lack of
confidence in anyone else's ability to do the job. He then proceeded to throw all sorts of accusations
in the face of his comrades - which included charges of “factionalism” and of attempting to stage a
coup - which led to those present questioning [removed name] on his motives, with one member calling
him by his first name. Nothing was mentioned of this at the time, but in less than 24 hours formal
charges of “breaching security” and engaging in personal attacks against League members were
leveled at these comrades. Two of the members were not able to be present to defend themselves
due to work, but were suspended all the same, with no chance of being able to even make a
statement. However, the trial itself was handled exclusively by the CC, where [removed name] has a bloc
vote alongside [removed name] and a sycophantic associate named [removed name] It is to be noted that this same
gang of three now make up the Provisional Organizing Committee claiming to be the entire League.
As only one defendant was present at the trial, there was some degree of opposition. However, when
it was pointed out that the charge of engaging in personal attacks would also apply to both [removed name] and
[removed name] [removed name] announced that that charge in particular was now a “mistake” that she had not
intended to include in the original document calling for disciplinary action. Such astonishing double
dealing and insincerity speaks for itself.
However, League members had also discovered proof that [removed name] and [removed name] had themselves
broken organizational security, in particular in the form of a website that contained written and
photographic evidence of [removed name] true identity. This was no ordinary website, but one that was
designed to act as an advertisement for [removed name] campaign to run for President of the United
States! This website also attached the League itself as political support for the campaign, despite
the fact that nobody in the League had been consulted on this or was even aware of her wishes to
stand for election.
When this was brought before the proceedings, [removed name] continued to lie by arguing as if the
woman on the website was not in fact [removed name], despite the fact that several comrades have met
her and could vouch to the fact that the woman in the photograph was indeed her. As they were
rapidly losing ground, [removed name], [removed name] and [removed name] then voted to ban all further discussion, in effect
silencing any further dissent, and moved straight on to suspending the three members. We would
confirm once more that two out of these three comrades were not even able to be present.
Some comrades were then subsequently ejected from the meeting, including one observer who
described the proceedings as a “travesty”. After earlier condemning several League members who
had posted the transcript of a CC meeting to the memberships internal discussion channel in order
to allow the rank and file to better understand the situation, [removed name] then posted the transcript of
the trial to the same forum - but edited it so that the final part was missing so nobody would know of
the comrades who were banned for protesting.
According to our convention documents, the CC answers to the Executive Central Committee (CEC)
which is made up of elected representatives alongside those of the Central Committee. After hearing
about the suspension of the three comrades, several members asked the CEC to convene in order to
settle the issues brought up in the “trial”. [removed name]associate, [removed name], then stated that only
[removed name] himself could call and convene a meeting of the CEC, in fragrant violation of democratic
process.
However the CEC met anyway, disregarding the dictatorial action proposed by [removed name], with a full
majority of CEC members attending. [removed name] made an initial appearance and stated that because
he was chairman it was up to him to convene such a meeting, and since he had not done so we were
all in clear breach of League rules. He refused any further participation, clearly on the grounds that
because he personally didn't agree with the CEC's reasons for meeting, it should not be allowed to
take place. The CEC immediately voted to re-instate the excluded members, at which time
Schreader posted his factional declaration and excluded all members present from our internal
discussion board - effectively attempting to silence any further discussion.
Imminent Security Threat?
"In the last months following the First Constitutional Convention of the League, however, a section of
the membership, trained in the schools of petty-bourgeois socialism and still adhering to those
methods and practices, have attempted to transform the League into a clone of those organizations.
They have not only advocated a fundamental shift in our practice, away from communist activism
and toward the method of a leftist pressure group on the ruling class, but they have also tossed
aside the Rules aside in favor of personalism, gossip and infantile methods of argument. The
responsibility for this failure lies with all those who have engaged in these methods. However, it is
necessary to point out that this failure was allowed to grow and take hold due to the failure of the
Organizer to fulfill his chief responsibility to the League: the oversight of the daily administration
and coordination of the League, in accordance with the Rules and the mandate set by the
Convention and Central Committee."
The post above is yet another attempt by [removed name]to accuse others in theory what he is actually
guilty of in practice. When he is not in fact lying through his teeth in regards to us wanting to
supposedly turn the League into a pressure group (again we publicly challenge Schreader to provide
concrete evidence to back up his claims) he is simply delving into his own personal world of paranoia
and fantasy.
However, during the recent troubles it became apparent that the emphasis on security had become
something of a dogma. At no point did the POC faction ever attempt to reconcile this policy with an
analysis of the actual situation facing the American left. Over time it became apparent that
[removed name] and [removed name]were genuinely terrified of their true identities being discovered, for the
simple reason that they were known on the US left for disruptive behavior and intrigue.
As stated, [removed name], as recently as September 2006 was exploring the possibility of running for
President of the United States - with the backing of a local Green Party member. [removed name]is also
listed as her campaign manager, all associated with either the Green Party Michigan, or the Michigan
chapter of the SP-USA. [removed name]ring
the possibility of a federal investigation of [removed name], and by association, the League.
However, after League members discovered this website, it was taken down, clearly to prevent the
rank and file from being able to properly digest the information and come to their own conclusions.
[removed name] charge of sexism
[removed name] charges the following:
"the most egregious of these was the open embracing of sexism by these members. Some of these
members made blatantly sexist and misogynistic comments, twisted efforts at combating sexism
into acts of sexism in order to cover their own anti-woman attacks, and consciously sought to drive
a leading woman comrade out of the League on a personalistic basis."
This charge is based on [removed name]own "sexist dynamic" he admitted to at the CC meeting
mentioned earlier. However it has become clear judging from his conduct at the trial, his input
regarding the website, and his recent “declaration” that [removed name] is a deliberate liar and makes this
statement solely to try and take the focus off him as a supposed "leader" in communist/leftwing
politics. His loss of any kind of grip on reality, and his persistent attempt to accuse others with what
he himself is guilty of, is the main reason we offer this document. It should also be noted that
throughout this unpleasantness, we were consistently able to best the POC faction by simple
reliance on hard evidence (transcripts, minutes, the website etc) where as they were only able to
respond with outrageous slander and by descending into their own private fantasies. We are fully
able to provide evidence of everything we have stated and argued - the POC cannot do the same.
The "Rest of the Story"
The rest of [removed name] document is truly unworthy of responding to. He makes repeated use of
supposed Marxian jargon in order to try and convince the reader that somehow he actually has a
form of political argument. However as mentioned the vast bulk of his statement is pure fabrication
and is beyond his ability to prove. His claims that we (as in the League, not him, his wife and [removed name])
want to turn the League into a “clone” of the left, alter its principles, or destroy it altogether, are
simply groundless. Not seemingly content with dragging the organization through the dirt, lying
repeatedly, attaching us to political campaigns without our consent, suspending opponents and
censoring the membership, he has now taken it upon himself to advertise his slanderous statement
as much as possible.
We, as a League, did not relish this conflict, or the steps we have had to take to resolve it. We
expect to be criticized. We only ask that before you criticize, you take into account the spirit in
which we offer this document. We also ask that you acknowledge our effort to openly stated the
facts - along with our willingness to prove them - in order to counter the disruptive actions of those
who are already known to the American workers movement as charlatans and purveyors of intrigue
and deceit.

- Statement from the real Communist League

[AmbitiousHedonism]

Did someone really take the time to write all that?

[The Advent of Anarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 08:33 pm
Did someone really take the time to write all that?
Nope, we pressed the Easy Button, and this popped up. :D

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

When are we going to learn that the only thing we are good at on the left is forming splits?

I guarantee that those who are even now calling one another &#39;comrade&#39; in each half of this spit will one day split again and slag each other off as they are now doing those on other side.

How do I know?

See my opening sentence.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 01, 2007 09:28 pm
When are we going to learn that the only thing we are good at on the left is forming splits?

I guarantee that those who are even now calling one another &#39;comrade&#39; in each half of this spit will one day split again and slag each other off as they are now doing those on other side.

How do I know?

See my opening sentence.
In Mile&#39;s case, that&#39;ll mean him and half of his wife will be in the Seperatist CL.

[Leo]

How do I know?

You are using a dialectical crystal ball&#33; Admit it&#33; :P

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Leo:


You are using a dialectical crystal ball&#33; Admit it&#33;

In a way, I suppose I am -- since I partly blame this divisive theory for the problem.

Thanks for pointing that out. :P

[communick]

Miles has already been booted from Leftist trainspotters for cop-baiting.

Does Revleft have a similar rule?

Sticks and stones will break my bones but being called a "cop" or "agent" would hurt my feelings if it were not so ridiculous.

I ain't one to to hide behind a nom de internet. Google me "[real name removed]" and google "[real name removed]".

My history will absolve me. Will yours [real name removed]?

[The Advent of Anarchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 03:25 pm
Miles has already been booted from Leftist trainspotters for cop-baiting.

Does Revleft have a similar rule?

Sticks and stones will break my bones but being called a "cop" or "agent" would hurt my feelings if it were not so ridiculous.

I ain't one to to hide behind a nom de internet. Google me "[real name removed]" and google "[real name removed]".

My history will absolve me. Will yours [real name removed]? And he believes anyone active outside of Second Life is an opportunist.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Former comrades falling out over personal issues -- re-configured as politcal differences -- this is so unlike the left&#33; :rolleyes:

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Please, PLEASE fucking stop this nonsense its embarassing and I&#39;m not even in the League.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I am sorry LH, who were you addressing that comment to?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

oh sorry not you just the thread in general. Just the fact that its like 5 guys on the internet turning personal issues into a political split. Its just sad to see that the Revolutionary Left in the US is at this type of stage

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Has it ever been any different since 1860-ish?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

In the U.S., or the whole world?

And what&#39;s your alternative, unity at any cost?

"So long as the sects are (historically) justified, the working class is not yet ripe for an independent historic movement. As soon as it has attained this maturity all sects are essentially reactionary. Nevertheless what history has shown everywhere was repeated within the International. The antiquated makes an attempt to re-establish and maintain itself within the newly achieved form." -Karl Marx, "Letter to Friedrich Bolte in New York," 1871.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

The entire planet, and at least since socialism was invented. The class struggle forces workers to unite, but it drives us Marxists the other way.

Now, you will need to summon up a little courage, and read my essays for at least part of the solution.

But, we know you are never going to do that, don&#39;t we? :)

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 11:25 am
My history will absolve me. Will yours [real forename removed]? Robin has gotten in trouble at her job because of you all. Her boss handed her a copy of your statement and asked what was going on? As far as I am concerned, history has already judged you. Now it's up to others.

As for the Leftist Trainspotters group, who gives a shit? I told them I didn't care if they removed me. As it is, there are enough people on there forwarding me information that it's like I never left (unfortunately).

Overall, I've never been ashamed of my history and what I've done. I've learned a lot from every experience. OK, sure, I was never a "left-wing poster boy", but I'm proud of what I've done. You and the rest of the petty-bourgeois leftists might not understand that, but that is how I see my work.

In my years, I have organized antifascist demonstrations that numbered in the thousands and tens of thousands (and led to the organization of the Anti-Racist Action Network) as well as participated in dozens more across the U.S., organized labor/community solidarity that aided in strikes being won, organized a workplace committee that not only has survived years after my departure but has helped to win the best contract for the workers that they've ever had, participated in the physical defense of women's clinics from New York to Louisiana, and helped hundreds of workers gain a better confidence in themselves and their ability to change things. It will be for these acts of the past -- and the acts that are to come -- that I will be judged by history. I am confident in history's judgment of my work.

What have you done? Participate in a couple photo-op arrests? Suck up to social democrats and Stalinites in order to make your antiwar efforts look promising? Explain to me and everyone else what it is you have really done to advance the class struggle. If you're honest about your answer, then you'll know why I was never impressed by you.

You're a consummate opportunist. Both of us may have moved from group to group over the years, but the difference between us is that while I have been looking for an organization that actually took seriously the principles of class struggle and revolution (and actually wanted to make a revolution), you were looking for an organization in which you could be a star and self-appointed hero. When you realized that the League was not that kind of organization, and you might have to do some real work and not be the star, that's when you flipped out and decided on your current course.

We are better off without you and the others. History will judge me and the League both thoroughly and fairly.

History will absolve you because it will have forgotten you.

Miles

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 05, 2007 04:38 pm
Former comrades falling out over personal issues -- re-configured as politcal differences -- this is so unlike the left&#33; :rolleyes:
The opportunists and snitches -- and their hangers-on like Vlad -- like to think this is only personal. Well, given who we&#39;re dealing with, that sort of makes sense. They have no principles of their own and no principled basis of agreement among them, so what is there other than personal ties to bind them together.

As far as we are concerned, there are political differences -- over how to conduct public activity, over approach to the situation in Iraq, over the importance of communist organization, etc. We will be publishing a longer statement on the removal of this rotten bloc of agents provocateur in the next issue of Workers&#39; Republic, which will be out in the next couple of weeks.

Miles

[Herman]

The entire planet, and at least since socialism was invented. The class struggle forces workers to unite, but it drives us Marxists the other way.

I&#39;ev said this numerous time: people are unwilling to compromise. If they do, it is seen as a "betrayal".


Now, you will need to summon up a little courage, and read my essays for at least part of the solution.

Er... what solution? You mean anti-dialectics?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

What&#39;s the latest on this?

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 25, 2007 06:05 am
What&#39;s the latest on this?
Nothing that couldn&#39;t be predicted. The splitters are off forming a useless party that will die in irrelevance soon, and the original real communist league is doing the same as it always did; revolutionary activity.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+November 25, 2007 06:12 am--> (Led Zeppelin @ November 25, 2007 06:12 am)
Rosa [email protected] 25, 2007 06:05 am
What&#39;s the latest on this?
Nothing that couldn&#39;t be predicted. The splitters are off forming a useless party that will die in irrelevance soon, and the original real communist league is doing the same as it always did; revolutionary activity. [/b]
So is there a Real Communist League and Provisional Communist League? :lol:

This is starting to sound familiar... :ph34r:

[Led Zeppelin]

No the other group changed its name.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin+November 25, 2007 06:12 am--> (Led Zeppelin &#064; November 25, 2007 06:12 am)
Rosa [email protected] 25, 2007 06:05 am
What&#39;s the latest on this?
Nothing that couldn&#39;t be predicted. The splitters are off forming a useless party that will die in irrelevance soon, and the original real communist league is doing the same as it always did; revolutionary activity. [/b]
And the "real and original" CL will also die in irrelevance (and more splits are very likely) as well, given that it is just some cyber sect that lets just about anyone in. When it comes to the act of letting just about anyone in, it is the result of a watered down program and/or opportunism. The initial phase of building strong cadres requires a principled stance and an iron theoretical grounding. It can&#39;t be some mere "I hate capitalism club" that lets just about anyone in.

Why people obsess over some cyber sect with no real world influence, no method, principled theoretical grounding, etc. is beyond me. I guess it shows that a lot of people here spend too much time on the internet and not enough time in real life.

[Led Zeppelin]

Dude, your party has like 10 members there.

Don&#39;t attack other parties if you are in the same position yourself.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by Led [email protected] 25, 2007 08:14 am
Dude, your party has like 10 members there.

Don&#39;t attack other parties if you are in the same position yourself.
Actually, we are bigger than that. I see you would prefer to believe Taaffe&#39;s lies instead of actually analyzing things. And we are involved in the real world, unlike the CL or whatever it is called now.

And I like how you call us an insignificant group when we can clearly see that you guys are terrified of our growing influence. This is proven by the fact that the CWI has decided to publish a critical review of Reason in Revolt...12 years after the book was initially released (see http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/11/02sciena.html)&#33; I also noticed that your group quoted from one of our books at the Socialist MN event at the University of Minnesota, and they were selling a pamphlet by the "senile old man," Ted Grant. Our influence and the strength of our ideas must be pretty good if even you guys are quoting from it and selling it. I will lay odds that Taaffe got scared when he started to see that his own comrades were enjoying that book.

Why spend all that time and money on attacking us? I thought we were supposed to fade into oblivion. Instead, we are growing in size and influence. The CWI itself will end up fading into oblivion - its best elements will be won over and absorbed into the IMT (to top this off, some of your younger members don&#39;t even really think that there is much of a difference between the IMT and the CWI.) and the rest that remain afterward will become an insignificant sect. :P

[Led Zeppelin]

Oh damn, you&#39;re right, you have 11 members.

Apologies.

And I know for a fact that the CL does real-life activities, I actually took part in some of them myself a while back in Detroit.

Just because they&#39;re not active in your area doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re not active.

[Herman]

I have to admit, the IMT attracts me more than the CL.

[Led Zeppelin]

I&#39;m not in the CL, I&#39;m in the CWI. And I&#39;m not sure why you posted which attracts you more. Who cares?

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Led [email protected] 25, 2007 08:14 am
Dude, your party has like 10 members there.

Don&#39;t attack other parties if you are in the same position yourself.
The IMT started outside the internet (indeed before the net existed) and has members all over the world. Members of the IRSP and its Youth Movement have attended several of the international conferences.

[Herman]

I&#39;m not in the CL, I&#39;m in the CWI. And I&#39;m not sure why you posted which attracts you more. Who cares?

I wasn&#39;t really replying to you, more like making a general statement. My opinion is that the CL does not attract me in any way, whereas the IMT seems to be better organized and more succesful internationally.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by PRC&#045;UTE+November 25, 2007 09:10 pm--> (PRC&#045;UTE &#064; November 25, 2007 09:10 pm)
Led [email protected] 25, 2007 08:14 am
Dude, your party has like 10 members there.

Don&#39;t attack other parties if you are in the same position yourself.
The IMT started outside the internet (indeed before the net existed) and has members all over the world. Members of the IRSP and its Youth Movement have attended several of the international conferences. [/b]
I was referring to the IMT section in the US, not as an organization in general (even though in general they are much smaller than the CWI as well).

And their organization there is tiny compared to the CWI&#39;s, that doesn&#39;t mean that I&#39;ll follow suit and attack them with "you are irrelevant in the real world" type statements, which is nothing but sectarian idiocy.

And the CL did not "start inside the internet", it was organization in Detroit which branched out through the means of the internet. Most organizations do that, it&#39;s called living in the modern world.


My opinion is that the CL does not attract me in any way, whereas the IMT seems to be better organized and more succesful internationally.

The CWI is better organized and more successful internationally, so do they attract you?

What about the Chinese Communist Party? They are the best organized and most successful organization and they have the word "communist" in their name, does that mean that you support them?

You don&#39;t support organizations based on their "success rate", you support them based on their politics and correctness in theory. Success in membership numbers does not equal correct theory (see the Socialist Party). Anyway you would support the CWI over the IMT based on that logic, given the fact that we are more "successful" than the IMT.

[Herman]

The CWI is better organized and more successful internationally, so do they attract you?

What about the Chinese Communist Party? They are the best organized and most successful organization and they have the word "communist" in their name, does that mean that you support them?

You don&#39;t support organizations based on their "success rate", you support them based on their politics and correctness in theory. Success in membership numbers does not equal correct theory (see the Socialist Party). Anyway you would support the CWI over the IMT based on that logic, given the fact that we are more "successful" than the IMT.

Don&#39;t assume that my sole reason for joining an organization is based on their success rate. It&#39;s one of the reasons why I sympathize with the IMT. There are many more.

The IMT in Venezuela is very active and doing a lot of great work, which is another reason why I support them (Corriente Marxista Revolucionaria), as well as in Spain. I feel closer to them than the local grouping of the CWI "Manifiesto" in Spain. This is just another reason, let me remind you.

[Led Zeppelin]

Ok, I didn&#39;t know that, I just went by what you said. I&#39;m not a mind-reader after all. :P

[Tower of Bebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 10:32 am
And I like how you call us an insignificant group when we can clearly see that you guys are terrified of our growing influence. This is proven by the fact that the CWI has decided to publish a critical review of Reason in Revolt...12 years after the book was initially released (see http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/11/02sciena.html)&#33; I also noticed that your group quoted from one of our books at the Socialist MN event at the University of Minnesota, and they were selling a pamphlet by the "senile old man," Ted Grant. Our influence and the strength of our ideas must be pretty good if even you guys are quoting from it and selling it. I will lay odds that Taaffe got scared when he started to see that his own comrades were enjoying that book.

Why spend all that time and money on attacking us? I thought we were supposed to fade into oblivion. Instead, we are growing in size and influence. The CWI itself will end up fading into oblivion - its best elements will be won over and absorbed into the IMT (to top this off, some of your younger members don&#39;t even really think that there is much of a difference between the IMT and the CWI.) and the rest that remain afterward will become an insignificant sect. :P
?Huh?

Why would we be terrified? It&#39;s obvious that the IMT can grow in influence. That&#39;s what happens to all excisting ideas, just like fascism, anarchism, reformism, ...

Btw, this so called evidence is not "evidence" at all :) .

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Axel:


Why people obsess over some cyber sect with no real world influence, no method, principled theoretical grounding, etc. is beyond me. I guess it shows that a lot of people here spend too much time on the internet and not enough time in real life.

Says someone who is keen to post on the internet, and who belongs to a split in yet another sect, himself... :P

And anyone who wants to see Reason in Remission by Woods and Grant taken apart, just click on down:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2...tical-Inanities (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2004.htm#Dialectical-Inanities)

[Seven Stars]

Originally posted by PRC&#045;UTE+November 25, 2007 07:31 am--> (PRC-UTE @ November 25, 2007 07:31 am)
Originally posted by Led [email protected] 25, 2007 06:12 am

Rosa [email protected] 25, 2007 06:05 am
What&#39;s the latest on this?
Nothing that couldn&#39;t be predicted. The splitters are off forming a useless party that will die in irrelevance soon, and the original real communist league is doing the same as it always did; revolutionary activity.
So is there a Real Communist League and Provisional Communist League? :lol:

This is starting to sound familiar... :ph34r: [/b]
Was thinking the same think comrade.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Anyone know what has happened since last year?

[Die Neue Zeit]

CL has been posting on this website (and so have I):

http://www.deleonism.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338&start=0

[Martin Blank]

Anyone know what has happened since last year?

As far as I can tell, the CWL has fallen off the map. No one has seen or heard from them since January.

As for us, we just concluded a conference/expanded C.C. meeting that was quite productive. We've been neglecting the website, though, but that should be remedied soon.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I'm glad to hear you are still around!:)

[Comrade Bender]

BUMP.
I may be reviving a dead message board, but as a former member of the CL, and the CWL, I've wanted to say something about the organization for around two years, and I've finally gotten my computer back, so I'M GONNA TALK. :glare:

The Communist League of Comrade Miles didn't collapse because of their illegitimacy, neither did the Communist Workers League, who were in some way active through the middle of 2008. Despite what Miles said, the CWL didn't die because of wrong views, nor did they merge with a petty-bourgeois group, and they most certainly didn't collapse because Miles wasn't there to save them while simultaneously playing Second Life. The Communist Worker's League died off because of their incompetence. They couldn't get a newspaper running in one or two MONTHS let alone a weekly paper. They recruited people that knew very little about anything communistic, and the only members dedicated to the cause of communist revolution, it seemed, were about 4 to 7 people out of 43 overall members. Nothing was accomplished in meetings, calls to action were frequently ignored, and personal responsibility was more of an outcast than a Trotskyite in the Stalin Society. The group was too decentralized, there were too many semi-active and inactive members that would merely argue with me and a couple others about the different factions we belonged to. Without any form of unity, or any recorded accomplishments, I left the Communist Worker's League, and for a while, the Communist movement itself.

In regard to the Detroit group; I really don't know what happened, except they seemed to go down around the same time as the CWL. I guess Miles had an active group, maybe more active and more competent thatn the CWL; but it doesn't help to only have four members in total. O_o; Both collapsed, due to petty squabbles, lack of leadership, overall incompetence, and a total lack of me. :P

Glad to get all that off my chest. :lol:

Yours truly,
~Comrade Vladimir

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

So, how is Miles's new group doing?

[Comrade Bender]

So, how is Miles's new group doing?

Not a clue. I just came back after months, and I'm relearning my ideology; a year or two out of the movement has made me forgot a couple things about anti-revisionism.

But, as I look at Miles' website, it seems to be just like the old Communist League. v.v *sigh* I'm not going through that monkeyshit again.

Hey, can my name be changed to "Comrade Bender"?

[Le Libérer]

Closed thread. We dont necro threads.