Support Lars Vilks

[Dimentio]

The petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/vilks/petition.html)

Lars Vilks, a Swedish artist, made a cartoon out of the prophet Muhammed, and the chief editor on the newspaper Nerikes Allehanda published it to inject a debate on freedom of expression. Of course, the drawings caused an international outrage, and Sweden's weak-willed prime minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt, almost apologised to ambassadors from 20 moslem countries and has not condemned the recent death threats on Vilks from The Islamic State of Iraq.

Here are the death threats: Jihad Unspun (http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=108959&list=/index.php&)

Even those who claimed neutrality earlier have now dared to rise against the Muslims, even those who used to claim neutrality, like the small country of the Cross, insignificant and subservient, Sweden….

So from today onwards we incite to kill, to spill the blood of Lars Vilks', the one who drew the caricatures and attempted to diminish the status of our Prophet, peace be upon him.

We declare that in the month of generosity, the month of Ramadan, a prize of $100, 000 dollars to the one who kills this unbeliever criminal, the prize will rise to $150, 000 dollars if he is slaughtered like a sheep. We also declare a prize of $150, 000 dollars to the one who brings the head of the director of the magazine that published the matter.

[Colonello Buendia]

Holy Allah! Islamists such as these seriously need to get a life...... I'd say those were funny caricatures....Christians deal with shit all the time but no embassies get firebombed or awards offered for delivering someones head to others. They don't like what I see, come get me!

[RedStarOverChina]

Why would I want to support him?

Meaning, why do I have to choose between European racism and Islam?

I am not fully aware of Vilks' intentions in his imflammatory works, but they no doubt fuel European (in particular, Swedish) xenophobia.

Though I'm not entirely sure if all of them are racists, the "positive reactions" these cartoonists receive from European reactionaries alone seem very suspecious to me.

In so far as Europe goes, the rising trend of European racism is much bigger of a threat than Islamic militants.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece

[RedHal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17, 2007 06:49 pm
Why would I want to support him?

Meaning, why do I have to choose between European racism and Islam?

I am not fully aware of Vilks' intentions in his imflammatory works, but they no doubt fuel European (in particular, Swedish) xenophobia.

Though I'm not entirely sure if all of them are racists, the "positive reactions" these cartoonists receive from European reactionaries alone seem very suspecious to me.

In so far as Europe goes, the rising trend of European racism is much bigger of a threat than Islamic militants.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece
well said.

Also, have these online petitions amounted to anything? what a joke!

[YKTMX]

I'm filled with ambivalence at the prospect of this man's death.

If smug, self-satisfied, white Europeans want to engage in ignorant, obnoxious "cartoonery" then, as the poster above said, I see no reason why anyone who should either be surprised or concerned when he gets a little payback.

He's obviously a rather sad failed artist who fancied a little late-in-the-career press coverage by drawing the Prophet as a dog. And I'm supposed to jump his defence?

I don't think so.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:33 pm
I'm filled with ambivalence at the prospect of this man's death.

If smug, self-satisfied, white Europeans want to engage in ignorant, obnoxious "cartoonery" then, as the poster above said, I see no reason why anyone who should either be surprised or concerned when he gets a little payback.

He's obviously a rather sad failed artist who fancied a little late-in-the-career press coverage by drawing the Prophet as a dog? And I'm supposed to jump his defence.

I don't think so.
Seconded. I view the European Far-Right as much worse threat than Islamic Fundamentalists. This guy only had one intention - to aggravate those fundamentalists.

[Leo]

If smug, self-satisfied, white Europeans

:rolleyes:

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Leo [email protected] 19, 2007 01:40 pm

If smug, self-satisfied, white Europeans

:rolleyes:
:D Touche!

[Zurdito]

On my list of petitions to sign, this one is very low. maybe if he had signed some petitions to support muslim (and other) immigrants getting exploited in the west, rather than just engaging in typical petit bourgeoise intellectual masturbation and non-constructive "shock" humour at the expense of some of the world's most opressed people, and he was getting death threats for that, then I'd support him.

[Demogorgon]

I am to sign a petition in favour of anti-immigration cartoons? Not while I am still in possesion of my senses.

[spartan]

Is the artist in question a white supremicist? If he is not a white supremicist or a racist then i dont see the problem in supporting him against Islamist scum who think that any non Muslim should treat all Muslims in a special manner! Also this blatant racism against white people by some members in this thread is very disturbing and worrying to say the least. Not all white European people are Capitalist imperialists you know! This is a serious problem in the left with many people in the left not able to look past the colour of someones skin. I thought that this issue was only for ignorant right wingers to worry about not progressive leftists. If the artist in question is a racist then i stand corrected. But i will add anyway:
DEATH TO RELIGION AND ITS DEFENDERS! :angry:

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 02:07 pm
I am to sign a petition in favour of anti-immigration cartoons? Not while I am still in possesion of my senses.
This is not anti-immigration.

A lot of immigrants from islamic countries are actually supportive to the cartoons, since they have fled because of being oppressed by reactionaries.

Islam is not progressive. We must support people who want to liberate themselves from age-old dogmas instead of enstrengthening the islamic religious establishment and march arm in arm with Hezbollah and Hamas.

As it is now, the left is leaving walk-over to the fascists and the right-wingers in the issue of combatting militant islam, which is luring a segment of the muslim working class to it's cause.

[Dimentio]

Vilks is certainly not a white supremacist, but an artist. He created an own country called Ladonia in a conservation area, based around two illegal artworks. That micronation has citizens from all over the world.

[RedStarOverChina]

I do not know and never assumed that he is a white supremicist...And I am against Islam as much as any rational person would be.

But at this point, it should be clear that the most reactionary elements of the European right are using this "secularism vs Islam" fight to further their own racist agenda. Vilks played right into their hands whether he intended it or not.

And to clarify once again, I am NOT a defender of Islam. What I am saying is, don't side with either one!

If Vilks criticises Christianity and Islam equally, then he'd be much more convincing. Because from what I have seen, even the more secular European reactionaries hardly ever touches Christianity.

Thus, this is a fight between the European right and the Islamicists, and we are neither. If we, as leftists, are to join this debate, then in our discourse we must NOT single out Islam, and emphasize that all religions are the same, and we oppose them equally.

[spartan]

RSOC:
Thus, this is a fight between the European right and the Islamicists, and we are neither. If we, as leftists, are to join this debate, then in our discourse we must NOT single out Islam, and emphasize that all religions are the same, and we oppose them equally.
Fair enough i understand your point now. There are alot of things that we can attack the Catholic church for in our modern times now such as the various sex abuse allegations And the current pope being a former member of the Hitler youth!

[bolshevik butcher]

the recent death threats on Vilks from The Islamic State of Iraq.
:blink: When did Iraq become an Islamic state? :wacko:

Red star over China's already made my argument. This is not some sort of progressive cartoon that criticised religon it is something that is perpetutation the agenda of the ruling class of imperialsit countries. That is to divert that attention of the working class from class society and the inability of capitalism to provide a decent standard of living or even keep their pay at a stable level in Britain. Instead the working class is divided along religous lines.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 01:33 pm
I'm filled with ambivalence at the prospect of this man's death.

If smug, self-satisfied, white Europeans want to engage in ignorant, obnoxious "cartoonery" then, as the poster above said, I see no reason why anyone who should either be surprised or concerned when he gets a little payback.

He's obviously a rather sad failed artist who fancied a little late-in-the-career press coverage by drawing the Prophet as a dog. And I'm supposed to jump his defence?

I don't think so.
:lol:

It is incredible how reactionary this post is.

You are basically arguing that murder as a reaction to a mere parody of religion is justified.

You are nothing more than a self-guilt ridden liberal than satisfies itself with backing reaction just because a lot of very oppressed people happen to believe in it.

Like any good liberal, you ally yourself with the middle-eastern bourgeosie.

[spartan]

bb:
When did Iraq become an Islamic state?
Iraq might not be an Islamist state now but it will be in the near future! Also i think he meant Islamist scum from Iraq but he of course said it completly wrong if that is what he meant.

[YKTMX]

You are basically arguing that murder as a reaction to a mere parody of religion is justified.


No I'm not. I'm saying I don't see any need to defend this person.


You are nothing more than a self-guilt ridden liberal than satisfies itself with backing reaction just because a lot of very oppressed people happen to believe in it.


If you could translate this language into human rather than dog, I might be able to respond.


Like any good liberal, you ally yourself with the middle-eastern bourgeosie.

Please, anarchist boy, go and have a lie down.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 03:04 pm
bb:
When did Iraq become an Islamic state?
Iraq might not be an Islamist state now but it will be in the near future!
Not a foregone conclusion.

And if he meant it was a message from islamists in Iraq then that should have been said. The islamist state of Iraq just comes accross as racism, Iraq is "islamist" because most of its population are muslims was the only reason I could see someone reffering to Iraq as an islamist state.

[spartan]

Marmot:
It is incredible how reactionary this post is.

You are basically arguing that murder as a reaction to a mere parody of religion is justified.

You are nothing more than a self-guilt ridden liberal than satisfies itself with backing reaction just because a lot of very oppressed people happen to believe in it.

Like any good liberal, you ally yourself with the middle-eastern bourgeosie.
This is a great post!

[hajduk]

for me this petition is a another bad joke and nothing else

[RedStarOverChina]

Stop with the name calling.

This is an important discussion. It's important that leftist reach an general consensus in face of right-wing criticism over our so-called "alliance" with the Islamicists.


*Perhaps when we DO reach a general consensus, the mods should make sort of an anouncement of our position.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 03:08 pm
Marmot:
It is incredible how reactionary this post is.

You are basically arguing that murder as a reaction to a mere parody of religion is justified.

You are nothing more than a self-guilt ridden liberal than satisfies itself with backing reaction just because a lot of very oppressed people happen to believe in it.

Like any good liberal, you ally yourself with the middle-eastern bourgeosie.
This is a great post!
Why do you insist on every thread cheer leading for one of your anarchist pals? Imagine if everyone did this. The thread'd be clogged with spam from people pointlessly backslapping each other rather than making political points.

[spartan]

bb:
Why do you insist on every thread cheer leading for one of your anarchist pals? Imagine if everyone did this. The thread'd be clogged with spam from people pointlessly backslapping each other rather than making political points.
Because bb my Anarchist pal in my opinion is completly right in what he said.

[black magick hustla]

who should either be surprised or concerned when he gets a little payback.

If you dont think you should be "concerned" about it, you are implying it is justified.

There is a lot to be concerned about this. There is a lot to be concerned about when people are willing to kill for a mere icon.



If you could translate this language into human rather than dog, I might be able to respond.

:lol:

You are so infatulated with islam that you even use "dog" as an insult!



Please, anarchist boy, go and have a lie down.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I am a communist, and i am taking the communist position in this.

[bolshevik butcher]

Because bb my Anarchist pal in my opinion is completly right in what he said.
So what? It's been said you don't have to post to say yes i think its great and nothing else, it doesn't add to the discussion at all its just irritating.

[AntifaHooligan]

I dont support islamists in any way, but i dont wanna support this guy either!

The only intention with these drawings was to provoke.

Yes, the islamists are extremely over reacting, but if you intentionally provoke such an agressive group of people, dont expect any support from me.

I support his right to make these drawings and make them public, but if he does, he cant be afraid of the consequences.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 03:30 pm
I dont support islamists in any way, but i dont wanna support this guy either!

The only intention with these drawings was to provoke.

Yes, the islamists are extremely over reacting, but if you intentionally provoke such an agressive group of people, dont expect any support from me.
You don't have to "support" him.

But you do have to criticize the overreaction.

We are communists, we don't have to choose any side of the ruling class.

[AntifaHooligan]

Originally posted by Marmot+September 19, 2007 03:33 pm--> (Marmot @ September 19, 2007 03:33 pm)
[email protected] 19, 2007 03:30 pm
I dont support islamists in any way, but i dont wanna support this guy either!

The only intention with these drawings was to provoke.

Yes, the islamists are extremely over reacting, but if you intentionally provoke such an agressive group of people, dont expect any support from me.
You don't have to "support" him.

But you do have to criticize the overreaction.

We are communists, we don't have to choose any side of the ruling class. [/b]
Im not saying i wanna choose any side.

[YKTMX]

If you dont think you should be "concerned" about it, you are implying it is justified.

No, I'm not "implying" anything. If I thought murdering him was justified, I would say so. I don't need you to "interpret" what I say. I say what I mean.


There is a lot to be concerned about when people are willing to kill for a mere icon.


People kill when they get upset. It is, unfortunately, a part of our make-up (not the only part, or even a main part, but a part nonetheless).

This man has intentionally upset many people, so he places himself, intentionally, in danger. And?


You are so infatulated with islam that you even use "dog" as an insult!


I don't know what that means.


Sorry to burst your bubble but I am a communist, and i am taking the communist position in this

Are you? Then what a tragedy for communism it is.

[spartan]

Marmot:
We are communists, we don't have to choose any side of the ruling class.
Exactly but according to some here on this forum you either choose the Religious extremists or you are a Capitalist imperialist sympathizer!

[Philosophical Materialist]

I don't think the cartoonist did a wise thing in "provoking" a debate here. However events like these reinforce how much I despise religion, that people will threaten to kill (and kill) others for the sake of the cloud-man in the sky.

[spartan]

PM:
I don't think the cartoonist did a wise thing in "provoking" a debate here. However events like these reinforce how much I despise religion, that people will threaten to kill (and kill) others for the sake of the cloud-man in the sky.
Exactly! But you better watch out PM because those stupid cloud man believers have supporters on this very forum! Who support there right to go about killing anyone who does not agree with their cloud man in the sky.

[black magick hustla]

No, I'm not "implying" anything. If I thought murdering him was justified, I would say so. I don't need you to "interpret" what I say. I say what I mean.

Don't be silly.

Fascist scum always use that tactic. They always say, "well we do not support violence" and when some black gets beaten up, or when some arab gets killed because of racism, they close their eyes. They never speak against it.

If you think something important is not justified, you speak against it. Saying I am "not concerned" about it makes you either a shitty apathetic, or you are simply silently supporting it.



People kill when they get upset. It is, unfortunately, a part of our make-up (not the only part, or even a main part, but a part nonetheless).

This man has intentionally upset many people, so he places himself, intentionally, in danger. And?


It doesn't matter if he has upsetted them intentionally or not.

The point is why they got upset, and the practical implications of such why.

If people are getting upset about a mere icon, there is something wrong, and we need to address it, rather than closing our eyes.

[spartan]

Marmot:
If people are getting upset about a mere icon, there is something wrong, and we need to address it, rather than closing our eyes.
Or even worse support it like some here do!

[YKTMX]

If you think something important is not justified, you speak against it. Saying I am "not concerned" about it makes you either a shitty apathetic, or you are simply silently supporting it.


Who decides if it is "important"? As I said, this man has intentionally saught notoriety and he has achieved it. And now he expects, or you expect, the international left to flood to his rescue and denounce the people whom he has annoyed? Especially given that the people he ridiculed, Muslims in his country and others, are continually subject to racist attack and ridicule and imperialist violence.

As I demorgorgon said, not while I have my senses I won't.

The retribution of the oppressed is never pretty, that is for sure.



The point is why they got upset, and the practical implications of such why

That is true.

Why did they get upset?

Did they get upset because "Muslims" just tend to get "heated up" about these sort of things?

OR did they get annoyed because this is just the latest in a succession of these incidents, which comes amidst a horrible racist backlash against Islamic immigration to European liberal democracies (like Sweden) and continued Western Imperialist aggression against and military occupation of Arabic states.


The fact that you think this man is just a playful cartoonist "having a bit of fun" with an "icon", and can't see anything beyond that is difficult to accept.

[spartan]

If this artist wishes to take the piss out of Jesus or Muhammad he should be allowed to do this as it is a basic right under freedom of speech and he should not expect to be killed over it for fuck's sake! If some Muslims cannot accept his view and cannot conduct a proper debate with the artist in question over the matter instead of resorting to violence all the time then i dont see why leftists should support these violent Muslims. We should be questioning why certain people in the world are willing to kill other people in the world over a cloud man in the sky that does not even exist!

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2007 04:07 pm
If this artist wishes to take the piss out of Jesus or Muhammad he should be allowed to do this as it is a basic right under freedom of speech and he should not expect to be killed over it for fuck's sake! If some Muslims cannot accept his view and cannot conduct a proper debate with the artist in question over the matter instead of resorting to violence all the time then i dont see why leftists should support these violent Muslims. We should be questioning why certain people in the world are willing to kill other people in the world over a cloud man in the sky that does not even exist!
this is idealist rambling. the issue is that the far right are baiting muslims to divide workers in europe along religious lines. immigrant muslim workers are under attack, and are being stereotyped as bloodthirsty maniacs.

who cares about an abstract right to free speech? what has that to do with winning the class war?

there's too much liberal baggage here!

[Tatarin]

I agree with RedStarOverChina, we should not take any sides on this issue.

I mean, did we have this kind of things before 9/11 and the terrorist-anxiety? I can't remember any, at least.

These cases are also hard to justify, so to say. What can the rest of the world say against Europeans? Evil whites? Vanilla-people? Minions of Satan?

[Zurdito]

Originally posted by Marmot+September 19, 2007 03:33 pm--> (Marmot @ September 19, 2007 03:33 pm)
[email protected] 19, 2007 03:30 pm
I dont support islamists in any way, but i dont wanna support this guy either!

The only intention with these drawings was to provoke.

Yes, the islamists are extremely over reacting, but if you intentionally provoke such an agressive group of people, dont expect any support from me.
You don't have to "support" him.

But you do have to criticize the overreaction. [/b]
:lol: sorry, but the petition was to support Lars Vilks.

Now tell me, why do communists care about defending the freedom of petit bourgeoise liberals to intellectually masturbate and insult opressed people in the process? Was this man a revolutionary?

Was he criticising Islam from a progressive perspective, ie was he trying to actually help Muslims realise liberation in the proccess? Did he have a record of speaking out or campaigning against opression and poverty, ie did he ever help anyone else before expecting us all to "help" him? Was he progressive in any way? Or was he just an obnoxious "individualist"?

Because if so, I find it so ironic when individualists demand "collective" support for their "freedoms" - doesn't this make them realise that perhaps all their fucking egotistical "individualism" is actually only possible because oof other peoples hard work - people who perhaps they should do something for in the future.

Seriously, Lars Vilk sounds like just another pretentious, parasitical nihilistic "radical" who thinks insulting and shocking people makes you originial - a bit like the "South Park" people or Howard Stern. He will get no sympathy from me, such people are self-indulgent and reactionary and useless to anyone and anything.

[RedStarOverChina]

Zurdito, I must disagree.

I think openly attacking religion is the best (probably the only way) to help Muslims liberate themselves from religion---It's the only thing WE can do---The rest is up to them.

Attacking the religion is NOT insulting the oppressed people who happen to believe in it (for now). Was Marx and Bakunin insulting the European workers when they criticised Christianity?

I find Vilks' intentions to be suspecious only because of the circumstances in which he carried out his attacks against Islam---but I have no problems with depicting "the Prophet" in that manner.

In fact, I think us communists will do stuff like that too, sooner or later. Maybe along with images of Jesus sticking his head out of a sheep's ass.

That way we won't contribute to the efforts of the European reactionaries---and Muslims would understand that this is not something whipped up by racist assholes to hurt them.

[Zurdito]

I support reasoned criticism of any religion, and as communists we have to expose all superstition for what it is. if we go soft on Islam we are absolutely betraying muslim workers.

However I do think the intentions of the person doing the criticising are important - I've not seen any evidence that Lars Vilks was constructively taking on Islam as part of a wider progressive programme.

I'll be straight though - I think art should serve a specific purpose. Maybe that makes me authoritarian.

However I don't see the use of what liberals like Vilks are doing and I do think, consciously or not, thye contribute to an atmosphere of victimisation of muslims, just like people like Sir Ian Paisley contributed to the victimisation of Catholics in Northern Ireland when he called the Pope a heretic. I wouldn't defend his freedom to say such a thing in those circumstances, and the same goes for Vilks. This doesn't mean I have any sympathy with those religions.

[Jazzratt]

First they came for the cartoonists...