"Converting" a right-winger

[AntifaHooligan]

Theres this pathetic fuckhead at my school that is a christian, right-winger and racist. I often discuss with him, but our debates usually end up with me and some friends kicking the shit out of him. Hes the village idiot, but we still need more people at our side. How can i convince him that leftism is the only way?

[spartan]

Perhaps not beating him up everytime you disagree about something would be a good start :lol: And remember he is hardly likely to agree with your aims if he thinks that in a future Anarchist world anyone who disagrees will be hurt like him.

[Jazzratt]

Keep working at it, I knew someone like that (although I refrained from beating him in anything other than a verbal manner) and he joined the board awhile back - he occasionally posts and everything.

I find that a lot of right wingers (Libertarians especially) can be swayed by logical arguments - although it does take a lot of time.

Generally "converting" right wingers is a lot of trouble for very little gain - it's better to work amongst apolitical or left-liberal types as they will be more receptive to the ideas.

[AntifaHooligan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:40 pm
Perhaps not beating him up everytime you disagree about something would be a good start :lol: And remember he is hardly likely to agree with your aims if he thinks that in a future Anarchist world anyone who disagrees will be hurt like him.
Well, i guess all i can say to that is "he started it" :D

[Jesus H.]

Yeah beating up the guy is not going to change his mind. It will likely make him antagonistic.

You can see this in a big way in Iraq. They don't like the U.S. there cause it's fucked their life up so bad it is unbearable.

I've found that trying to convince people of something they do not already believe is very difficult. If it can be done it can be done most effectively in a non-direct way.

For instance the person knows what you believe. Well live your life the way you believe, and if it has genuine worth that will become evident over time to him. Then he may be convinced. There are no guarantees. Some people are shitheads and nothing will make them change.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I honestly think some people cannot be swayed. Like Jazzrat said, t's better to work amongst apolitical or left-liberal types. Some will immediately tune into revolutionary thought, others will not, ever.

Social darwinists and the like are, I think, people who don't have the "political genetics" to become a "revolutionary leftist", unless the majority of people are revolutionary leftists and they are just "following the crowd".

Some are from birth "tuned into" revolutionary leftism. Those who are conscious politically speaking and have very cynical views are generally cynical people. And cynical people won't join our movement, or at least they shouldn't.


Class background should also be noted, I think. In my class, there is an extremely cynical borderline racist who is born into a rich capitalist class family. We talk occasionally and he is "nice" but I notice he has some very cynical behavior patterns, so he is pretty much a bastard I think. His class interests aren't tuned into revolutionary leftism and he is a cynical bastard, so there is no point even trying.

On the other hand a group of people, me included, had a discussion about society outside school. I said "Capitalism is like a giant casino: A few winners and many losers."

A girl said "Wow, I've never really thought of it like that". She stared blank into the air and that simple sentence seemed to have an effect on her. She's tuned in, and that is the people you should focus on.


Not cynical bastards.


What you could do is to make a political list of your classmates. Take class background into account too, but remember that just because a guy is working class doesn't mean he will be a revolutionary. See who (if anyone) is receptive, don't try to force opinions down their throats.

The pricks you write off that list.

[dez]

i've met some hardcore neoliberals (infiltered on brazilian communist youth) that had strong class background, and some filthy rich communists, so i don't think you are precise on that one, camel.

These guys were using the popularity of the left here as a "political elevator".

Checking out if the parents are leftists is a more appropriate way, and class background is not an assurance of it.
;)

[RedKnight]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:33 pm
Theres this pathetic fuckhead at my school that is a christian, right-winger and racist. I often discuss with him, but our debates usually end up with me and some friends kicking the shit out of him. Hes the village idiot, but we still need more people at our side. How can i convince him that leftism is the only way?
Are you certain that he's a professed christian? :blink: Christianity, for all of it's possible faults, believes in the brotherhood of all believers, without regard to outer appearence. Of course I know that this is the ideal, not necessarily the reality. Christians, just like muslims, can hold racist opinions despite there religion's teachings. Also christians are not to be brawling either. Once he realises that he is being not only inhuman but unchristian as well, he shouldn't be such a problem for you.

[dez]

Originally posted by RedKnight+September 15, 2007 06:40 pm--> (RedKnight @ September 15, 2007 06:40 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 05:33 pm
Theres this pathetic fuckhead at my school that is a christian, right-winger and racist. I often discuss with him, but our debates usually end up with me and some friends kicking the shit out of him. Hes the village idiot, but we still need more people at our side. How can i convince him that leftism is the only way?
Are you certain that he's a professed christian? :blink: Christianity, for all of it's possible faults, believes in the brotherhood of all believers, without regard to outer appearence. Of course I know that this is the ideal, not necessarily the reality. Christians, just like muslims, can hold racist opinions despite there religion's teachings. Also christians are not to be brawling either. Once he realises that he is being not only inhuman but unchristian as well, he shouldn't be such a problem for you. [/b]
fighting is definetely not very christian

[Redboy]

Sounds like a Attention seeker to me. Just ignore him.

[Jesus H.]

I'd leave him alone myself. Had to many interactions discussing politics and religion to think that people can be converted by someone else. When a person is 'converted' he does it himself. There may be a catalyst, but the change happens internally first.

Trying to persuade someone who has an alternate view is akin to banging your head against a wall. It feels good when you stop.

If you have something worthwhile that will be evident and if it is worthwhile that makes it persuasive.

[AntifaHooligan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 06:38 pm
i've met some hardcore neoliberals (infiltered on brazilian communist youth) that had strong class background, and some filthy rich communists, so i don't think you are precise on that one, camel.

These guys were using the popularity of the left here as a "political elevator".

Checking out if the parents are leftists is a more appropriate way, and class background is not an assurance of it.
;)
Both his parents are politicians in a rightist party, so... :(

But they dont make much money though, so i guess they can be called middle class.

[AntifaHooligan]

Originally posted by RedKnight+September 15, 2007 06:40 pm--> (RedKnight @ September 15, 2007 06:40 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 05:33 pm
Theres this pathetic fuckhead at my school that is a christian, right-winger and racist. I often discuss with him, but our debates usually end up with me and some friends kicking the shit out of him. Hes the village idiot, but we still need more people at our side. How can i convince him that leftism is the only way?
Are you certain that he's a professed christian? :blink: Christianity, for all of it's possible faults, believes in the brotherhood of all believers, without regard to outer appearence. Of course I know that this is the ideal, not necessarily the reality. Christians, just like muslims, can hold racist opinions despite there religion's teachings. Also christians are not to be brawling either. Once he realises that he is being not only inhuman but unchristian as well, he shouldn't be such a problem for you. [/b]
Yes he is a christian, but he has no idea what he is talking about :D
This guy even believes in Santa Claus! :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by AntifaHooligan+September 15, 2007 08:34 pm--> (AntifaHooligan @ September 15, 2007 08:34 pm)
[email protected] 15, 2007 06:38 pm
i've met some hardcore neoliberals (infiltered on brazilian communist youth) that had strong class background, and some filthy rich communists, so i don't think you are precise on that one, camel.

These guys were using the popularity of the left here as a "political elevator".

Checking out if the parents are leftists is a more appropriate way, and class background is not an assurance of it.
;)
Both his parents are politicians in a rightist party, so... :(

But they dont make much money though, so i guess they can be called middle class. [/b]
dont make much money and theyre middle class?

Fuck, I'd like to see your idea of a lot of money!

[luxemburg89]

fighting is definetely not very christian


Yes it is! Christianity's strength is built on murder and war! The Spanish Inquisition, the Papal states' wars with Florence and Milan, The Crusades; in fact all Western Imperialism involves Christianity in some way. The bible even has passages advocating the stoning of homosexuals and the enslavement of non-believers. Violence is quintessentially christian.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 06:40 pm
Are you certain that he's a professed christian? :blink: Christianity, for all of it's possible faults, believes in the brotherhood of all believers, without regard to outer appearence. Of course I know that this is the ideal, not necessarily the reality. Christians, just like muslims, can hold racist opinions despite there religion's teachings. Also christians are not to be brawling either. Once he realises that he is being not only inhuman but unchristian as well, he shouldn't be such a problem for you.
Please. Christianity was used to justify slavery, as well as other inherently racist institutions. In fact, you can justify just about anything with Christianity, thanks to the absurd ambiguity of the Bible.

[manic expression]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 11:09 pm

fighting is definetely not very christian


Yes it is! Christianity's strength is built on murder and war! The Spanish Inquisition, the Papal states' wars with Florence and Milan, The Crusades; in fact all Western Imperialism involves Christianity in some way. The bible even has passages advocating the stoning of homosexuals and the enslavement of non-believers. Violence is quintessentially christian.
The Christian interpretation of Christianity changed when it became a state religion. When Christianity was a small doomsday death-cult in the Roman Empire, it preached peace and love, but when it was adopted by emperors and kings, it quickly changed its tune. What is certainly constant, however, is Christianity's aggressiveness and incredibly narrow-minded worldview. Due to this, Christians can extoll the virtues of brotherhood...while slaughtering heathen Saxons/Native Americans/Africans wholesale.

Basically, Christians talk peace when it's convenient, and Christians put entire civilizations to the sword when it's convenient.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 05:33 pm
Theres this pathetic fuckhead at my school that is a christian, right-winger and racist. I often discuss with him, but our debates usually end up with me and some friends kicking the shit out of him. Hes the village idiot, but we still need more people at our side. How can i convince him that leftism is the only way?
You think you got it tough trying to convince a right winger???

I've been trying to argue with a Cuban friend of mine. He just came off the island and he keeps saying how he hates communism and does not want to hear of it. Even though he knows I'm a red (and a Fidel supporter/positive critic) and even though I've given him logical reasons to the few issues in Cuba, he still turns arrogant and does not listen. He's not political in any way and the only argument he's got on me is "you haven't been there, you never lived in any type of socialist attempt". Even though he does not argue well...........he beats me at that point. So I got it hard but still, I wish you luck.

[Jesus H.]

Originally posted by manic expression+September 16, 2007 04:07 am--> (manic expression @ September 16, 2007 04:07 am)
[email protected] 15, 2007 11:09 pm

fighting is definetely not very christian


Yes it is! Christianity's strength is built on murder and war! The Spanish Inquisition, the Papal states' wars with Florence and Milan, The Crusades; in fact all Western Imperialism involves Christianity in some way. The bible even has passages advocating the stoning of homosexuals and the enslavement of non-believers. Violence is quintessentially christian.
The Christian interpretation of Christianity changed when it became a state religion. When Christianity was a small doomsday death-cult in the Roman Empire, it preached peace and love, but when it was adopted by emperors and kings, it quickly changed its tune. What is certainly constant, however, is Christianity's aggressiveness and incredibly narrow-minded worldview. Due to this, Christians can extoll the virtues of brotherhood...while slaughtering heathen Saxons/Native Americans/Africans wholesale.

Basically, Christians talk peace when it's convenient, and Christians put entire civilizations to the sword when it's convenient. [/b]
It's true that religious people have done that and at the same time called themselves Christians. I have a feeling that Jesus of Nazareth would do with them the same thing he did with the leaders of the religion he was born into.

It is easy to look at the history of the church and associate it with the man Jesus. Simply because the church has 'trademarked' his name.

However here is a radical view of the man from Nazareth that dismisses everything that the church has done in his name including the doctrines that are so unbelievable you need to give up your ability to be lucid to agree to them.

I really like this view of the man.

http://www.freechristians.com/Robert_D_Bri...ua_ben_adam.htm (http://www.freechristians.com/Robert_D_Brinsmead/the_scandal_of_joshua_ben_adam.htm)

It begins with 'This man and the Christian religion are not compatible' and then proceeds to tell you why.

[AntifaHooligan]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+September 15, 2007 10:00 pm--> (Ulster Socialist @ September 15, 2007 10:00 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2007 08:34 pm

[email protected] 15, 2007 06:38 pm
i've met some hardcore neoliberals (infiltered on brazilian communist youth) that had strong class background, and some filthy rich communists, so i don't think you are precise on that one, camel.

These guys were using the popularity of the left here as a "political elevator".

Checking out if the parents are leftists is a more appropriate way, and class background is not an assurance of it.
;)
Both his parents are politicians in a rightist party, so... :(

But they dont make much money though, so i guess they can be called middle class.
dont make much money and theyre middle class?

Fuck, I'd like to see your idea of a lot of money! [/b]
What i mean is that they dont make much money compared with other people in my country... Norway is a very rich country, so if you compare them to other people you could say they are poor...

[Colonello Buendia]

I live in Bearsden, One incerdibly conservative rightist and generally WASP suburb of Glasgow ,Scotland. I am probably the only communist and I'm sorrounded by apathists and pro-capitalists.One friend Is a close-minded near fundamentalist christian who considers capitalism to be "the only working system"
I f you have it hard then I'm in hell because I have to constantly defend a one manned position.
I always deal with comments such as "go back to russia!" and "awww there's that red boy!"
Anyway I've managed to at least create a stalemate so they can't move. Anyway I agree with Jazz rat, Aim for the liberals. Or alternatively make the point to Hyper-christians that Jesus was essentialy a communist.

[Robespierre2.0]

I wouldn't give up so easy on converting libertarians. I was one at one time, and I know that most libertarians are usually teenagers who mistakenly believe that laissez-faire capitalism will give them the most freedom.

How it works is they usually believe really strongly that people should have as much control over their lives as possible. Since the Democrats and Republicans don't stand for this and communism has a very effective smear campaign against it, by process of elimination they easily fall for the trap of libertarianism.

If you can show them that capitalism inherently suppresses freedoms and that socialism/anarchism will give people more control over their lives, it will be much easier to win them over.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by Marxosaurus [email protected] 16, 2007 05:39 pm
How it works is they usually believe really strongly that people should have as much control over their lives as possible. Since the Democrats and Republicans don't stand for this and communism has a very effective smear campaign against it, by process of elimination they easily fall for the trap of libertarianism.

If you can show them that capitalism inherently suppresses freedoms and that socialism/anarchism will give people more control over their lives, it will be much easier to win them over.
Wow you pretty much stated it well. Of course in the U.S., when the two parties look bad, some people look for alternatives and when communism has the negative look that the U.S. gave to it's people, something like libertarianism looks good for those middle class youth.

Of course I think it's incredible and admirable that you were once libertarian and that you moved over to the side of the working people.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Marxosaurus [email protected] 16, 2007 05:39 pm
I wouldn't give up so easy on converting libertarians. I was one at one time, and I know that most libertarians are usually teenagers who mistakenly believe that laissez-faire capitalism will give them the most freedom.

How it works is they usually believe really strongly that people should have as much control over their lives as possible. Since the Democrats and Republicans don't stand for this and communism has a very effective smear campaign against it, by process of elimination they easily fall for the trap of libertarianism.

If you can show them that capitalism inherently suppresses freedoms and that socialism/anarchism will give people more control over their lives, it will be much easier to win them over.
The problem is that the majority of "Libertarian" Capitalists tend to be of the petit-bourgeois or bourgeois classes and thus it doesn't lie in their class interests to support communism - thus making it a lot harder to convert them. This is one of the many reasons it's more trouble than it's worth.

Case in point the guy I "converted" and (presumably) you are both proletarians and thus have a material interest in bringing about Communism.

[acornsr4squirrels]

yeah i think it's pointless to try to "convert" people anyway, but especially to try to convert middle class right wingers.

the people i have had the most luck with are strictly working class and already have at least a little contempt for capitalism and the state. for example, in high school i knew this one girl who was living on her own with her boyfriend and their kid and barely had enough money to buy food (they were both working and she was finishing her senior year). one day she asked me what anarchism was, and i gave a general description. she nodded thoughtfully and said, "yeah, money is definitely evil." or something like that. it's a start.

another friend, actually a really close friend, got fired from his job because his boss got pissed off at his uncle. i asked him if he was in a union, and he said he didn't even know what one was. after i explained it to him, he was a lot more receptive to the idea of destroying capitalism.

but then there's people like my roommate, who are just assholes who gets off to the idea that there are people out there starving so that he can live in his own little secure world.

mostly just get people to think critically and to analyze their own lives and their relationship to the rest of society. if they see a reason to become a leftist, they probably will eventually. helping them out is another good step. don't preach (working class kids get bored with preaching and "logical arguments" very quickly--they'd rather see action and change), but instead help them join a union, give them a ride to school or work if they need it, hang out with them and just generally be a good, caring person.