Brave New World - is it a good world? - The greatest good is

[apathy maybe]

The greatest good is the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

The book _Brave New World_ shows a world that many today think is abhorrent. There are obvious class differences, with the bottom classes almost robots and the upper class with complete control. And yet if we use the quote above it seems a good world. Most people are happy, if they are not they can just pop some pills. And be happy. There are a small number of people in the ruling class who are unhappy. And there are a large number (but still a very small majority of the total population) of people who live outside society. These people outside society live in the old way. The have marriages and look after there own children. And yet most of them are happy also.

Now while I don't agree that it is a good world, if we use the quote above it looks like it is one. Is this quote a good way of measuring a society, even if it may seem depraved and sickening to us.

[suffianr]

The greatest good is the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

Sounds Utilitarian. Economical, too. But I don't buy that.

[bluerev002]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=21&topic=594 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=21&topic=594)
Add your comment so others in this site might find it interesting.

But seeing as your statement belongs in theory, ill write here anyways.


They have nine-year-old-children having sex, of course its sick!Of course for them its natural, in fact, if you remember, they laghed when they found out that we in this time would find it wrong and immoral.

The strange thig is that even with class diffrences the people on the bottom would NEVER be able to work on top and the people on top would NEVER be able to work on bottom. The peopl are especially programed to like their work and their work ONLY. That is an enslavement in the mind! Such a world would make us all think were happy, but we really wouldnt be. The pains felt are nothig deep, nothing with sorrow, and its nothing that a little soma cant get rid of...

This would never be a good way of measuring society, even if there arent any poor or any starving, it is not and I truly hope that the world would never come to a Bokanovskifiing.

It cant fall, John tried to free the people by throwing Soma out the window but the children only cried! They are too blind, such a society is just wrong...

"O brave new world... O brave new world that has such people in it"

[redstar2000]

It's been a very long time since I read Brave New World, so if I get something wrong here, please correct me.

But as I remember, the kind of unspoken assumption that supports this society is the enlightened benevolence of the alphas...the rulers "make sure" that the lower orders have whatever they need to be "happy"--drugs, sex, etc. as well as food, clothing, shelter, personal safety, and so on. They "look after" the welfare of the people on the bottom with the same dedication that a farmer looks after his livestock.

Given the actual track record of ruling classes through history, this is an astounding assumption and the most completely fictional aspect of the book. "Concern" for the welfare of the oppressed and exploited has never been a significant priority for any ruling elite.

Perhaps such a thing is possible...but I don't see it myself.

:cool:

[sc4r]

A though experiment called Nozick's Experience machine provides an insight into this.

http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Valu/ValuRive.htm

Essentially Nozick postulates a machine which you could plug into and once connected you would have the total and utter conviction that it was real life, it could of course be programmed only to give you happy experiences, as happy as you liked, and you would never know it was not real.

Now he asks 'would you plug in?'

The answer for most people is no they would not. The reason given is that all of have a strong desire not merely to feel happy, but to be convinced that life is real. And this desire is so strong that we would not sacrifice 5-10 mins of knowing that things would not be real even for a subsequent lifetime of happiness.

There are people who would of course. They often tend to be heavy drug users etc. who seek escape. But for most of us we reject such escapism.

I've heard the argument advnaced that the only reason people wont plug in is that they value satidfaction right now vastly more than future satisfaction and that it has nothing to do with a 'reality desire' - But think about that, which of us would not endure 5 mins of pain for a guaranteed lifetime of subsequent bliss? Most of us would, thus demonstrating that the reluctance about the M/c is in fact to do with reality and not to do with a present/ future benefit valuation.

Which answers the question of is Brave new World desirable? The answer is no it is not. Once there of course we would accept it, since we then would think it real. But we would not volunteer for it beforehand.

Which also (co-incidentally) probably kills the idea that the people in the book would be OK about popping 'happy pills'; they probably would not, not perpetually unless they were also somewhat comfortable about actual reality. They might take a pill for a transient 'high', but not if this was the onlyway to feel fulfilled.

And everything RS said about the unlikeliness of the Alpha's actually caring for and being genuinely concerned about the proles welfare also applies. In fact if you look at it from the perspective that to truly care you must not do something to another which you would not have done to yourself, you can see the fallacy. The alpha's would not consider entering a Nozick M/C themself, but they would force others to.

Obviously I might be in a NOzick now, I'd never know. But thenthe m/c becomes the only reality I have contact with and I wont volunteer to enter a 'level 2 Nozick' :)

[redstar2000]

Essentially Nozick postulates a machine which you could plug into and once connected you would have the total and utter conviction that it was real life, it could of course be programmed only to give you happy experiences, as happy as you liked, and you would never know it was not real.

Now he asks 'would you plug in?'

I read the paper that sc4r linked to. What struck me was the difficulty in actually programming "happy experiences".

One of the things which seems to make us "happy" is the complexity of experience, the unanticipated happening. We get bored easily.

(I saw a cartoon years ago: a Roman noble is lacing up his sandals while his wife is applying her makeup. His comment: "Orgies. Orgies. Orgies. Why can't we stay home once in a while?".)

It's difficult to imagine a program that would recreate the complexity of real life...unless the program was as complex as the universe itself.

In practical terms, should such a device ever be invented (and I wouldn't rule it out), I'd certainly plug in...but I'd attach a timer to turn off the device after a few hours.

We all could use a break, now and then.

:cool:

[sc4r]

Ahhhhh no :)

A quintessential part of the thought experiment is that once in you are in for good. You cant preprogram an escape.

[Monks Aflame]

I think the reason that most people said 'no' is because they knew it was a thought experiment, that it wasn't reality. Even if it was... machines fuck up, break down, we wouldn't trust them with our lives like that.

I don't like to use this example... but I can't think of an alternative at the moment:
Its like the Matrix, blue pill or red pill, right? Except, in the Matrix, it isn't life as we know it know. It is perfection. It is a dream life, infinitely better than our lives right now. If it was presented as such a situation, with reality as a horrible life of battle and war, and with the Matrix as a perfect life of never-ending happiness, I'm sure most would chose the Matrix.

But, can a life of never-ending happiness be real? No, it cannot. Happiness cannot exist without discontent. In Brave New World, people do get upset, but they quickly fix themselves up with pills.