How long - intil the revolution

[Iron Star]

we all know that its only a matter of time before capitalism falls. with the increase of imperialistic aggression and the downturn in the global economy capitalism is in no doubt on its last legs. it has to collapse sometime at least during this century.

i believe we have another twenty or thirty years before the revolution begins to form globally. it will begin in the third world and spread slowly in the form gurella actions and local grassroots campaigns in the second world. i think the struggle will end up carrying on for several decades until the world is united.i know to some of you my oppinions might seem too idealistic. i hope in the end there not.

my question to you guys is how long do you think it will be before the downfall of capitalism and the revolution occurs?

[Iepilei]

the revolution began in the 1850s. when will it reach absolution? only time will tell.

[Xprewatik RED]

Look, there is no more time to waste. Putting off this revolution with, "time will only tell", means nothing.
Its time for people to step up and start fighting, now. No longer can we wait. No longer can we wait around in the dreamy hope that something will come about. Imperialism isn't on its last leg, and neither is capitalism. It grows stronger day by day, because nothing obstructs its path. Road blocks must now be put in Capitalisms path, and eventually it will fall.
I don't want to be 20 and still be hoping the revolution will come. Capitalism will last forever, if noone wipes its evil out. The time is now, now, now, now.

[Comrade Raz]

What Xprewatik RED said is true.

The time for action is now.
Not necceserily violent action but action that will lead to more support for the overthrowall of capitalism.


(Edited by Comrade Raz at 6:57 pm on July 19, 2003)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

The time to educate and organize is now. Now I believe is an especially good time to talk socialism is because the world economy is in such wretched shape. The idea of recession/depression in the first place does not make a lot of sense to me. We still have workers, raw materials, and industrial means to make the products we want and need.

It is the manipulation of the capitalism system, I believe, that creates such absurd things. The endless pursuit of profit means that when the bourgeoisie cannot sell their goods (stolen from the labor of the proletariat, mind you) for a massive sum, then they would rather eliminate production until demand jacks the price back up through the ceiling.

It is in times of recession that the comfortable and unthreatened US middle class can become uncomfortable. It is my belief that the middle classes can become revolutionaries when their prosperity and delusions of upward mobility are wiped out so the ruling class can line its pockets.

What we need now is to foster the growth of independent, leftist media. We must show how the efforts of the ruling class and their politicians only benefit a small percentage of the US, give table scraps to the middle class, and say "FUCK YOU" to the rest of us in the working classes of the world.

If the truth is known, then I am sure the ranks of the revolutionaries would swell. At that point, we can begin to form a plan of action. Then, with a massive base of proletarians behind us, we could expropriate the expropriators and institute communism.

[Lardlad95]

The time for action is now?

What the hell is wrong with u people?

Are u incapable of seeing that the US hasthe most advanced military capabilities in all of history

they are developing a gun witha computer in it

They can contacteach other via a wireless network,they have bulletsthat know when to detonate

THese bulletscan be programed to detonate at a specfic point

Not mention thebullets can detonate

This gun will be available for use within the next5 years


The revolution is mental not physical, let go of this I'm the next che mentality

Che, Lenin, Mao they fought their battlesthe way they hadto

We have to fight a different way, therevolution can'tbe violent anymore guys

Atleastnot if u want to destroy the global power structure

and I assure u the two richest capitalistic countries the US and Japan would fuck a smallband of revolutionaries up

we must fight with our minds not with out dated Ak 47s

[Just Joe]

Lardlad is right. This is no time for any armed class struggle. Revolutions come in stages. The time now is to basically sit back and watch Capitalism implode whilst educating the working masses against things like racism and scapegoating, because when things start going tits up, people are gonna start looking for someone to blame. Get the people ready to start looking to blame Capitalism and Capitalists for there troubles and the rest will take care of itself.

[truthaddict11]

i dont think so, a revolution may be in order remember what Marx said, we have nothing to lose but our chains. the capitalist class, however, has everything to lose, but first must become class consciousness and education. Then revolution will happen, the working class must free itself no leaders or central planners for the overthrow of capitalism.

[Urban Rubble]

Yes, we have nothing to lose but our chains, and our lives.

A small revolutionary group in the U.S will be labeled terrorists faster than you can say "Where did my head go" or "What is this red stuff oozing from that hole where my leg used to be ?".

A violent reovlution in the U.S would take a minimum of 10 million active and 20 million supporters. Do you have that kind of a base ? No ? Well have fun getting killed.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Just Joe on 12:27 am on July 15, 2003
Lardlad is right. This is no time for any armed class struggle. Revolutions come in stages. The time now is to basically sit back and watch Capitalism implode whilst educating the working masses against things like racism and scapegoating, because when things start going tits up, people are gonna start looking for someone to blame. Get the people ready to start looking to blame Capitalism and Capitalists for there troubles and the rest will take care of itself.



Thank u now isn't the time to go shooting off at the mouth about what we are going to do to the capitalist opressors

now is the time to start getting more people involved

The number of leftists is no where near enough currently for an armed revolution let alone a game of capture the flad

[truthaddict11]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 12:55 am on July 15, 2003
Yes, we have nothing to lose but our chains, and our lives.

A small revolutionary group in the U.S will be labeled terrorists faster than you can say "Where did my head go" or "What is this red stuff oozing from that hole where my leg used to be ?".

A violent reovlution in the U.S would take a minimum of 10 million active and 20 million supporters. Do you have that kind of a base ? No ? Well have fun getting killed.


that was my point, first we need a class consciousness a band of revolutionaries is useless against the united states without a large support from the working class.the working class should free itself not a group of romantics. i wanst saying we should revolt right now.we shouldnt however rely on "democratic" changes as a way to overthrow capitalism

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 8:38 am on July 15, 2003)

[sc4r]

I wholeheatedly applaud the now, now, now sentiment. Partly this is for selfish reasons (I'm 46 and I'd like to see something tangible before I'm off to pinko heaven).

I also agree that the whole idea of armed militancy in th west is preposterous. I'm not suicidal, and if I was I'd wish it to achieve something more useful than giving the opposition a chance to tighten their grip in response to 'terrorsism'.

I regard the idea of 'educate and build class conciousness' as obviously desirable but likely to have little impact in isolation. Most of my boys would say 'read f'ing books - you are having a laff, what in it for me, now?'

Struggle in the third world is possible provided it has at least enough support in the west to ensure it isn't crushed as it often has been.

Which leaves us needing to gain if not control at least influence in the west.

To my mind this means establishing a presence within westen governments which will support not merely liberal social democracy but Marxism. The classic objection to this is that any such 'party' or even faction will become contaminated. My reply is so what? its a risk which has no real downside if it fails.

In the UK the most obvious vehicle for such a movement is the Labour party. BUT rather unfortunately I think the labour party is already too contaminated (and too alert for infilltration).

So maybe a new party of all the left is needed.

The other obvious location is the unions. Again many of them are, like the labour party, watchful (and they always have been more concerned with immediate benefit for members than any idealism). Unlike the labour party however they have an inbuilt stranglehold on the areas they are concerned with. So get involved and give it a shot, there is nothing actually to lose.

Finally (at least finally for me as I cant think of anything else) find a way to build up socialist control in industry through actual ownership (and this ties in nicely with the union angle). The media seems a particularly appropriate target.

Do all these things. because the sum of the parts often is less than the whole.

Most importantly focus on 'What brings on socialism' not 'what brings down capitalism'. The most likely result of a capitalist failure without a strong socialist mechanism already available is not Socialism but Fascism of some sort.

Right now we dont have to worry about 'corrupt leaders' etc. none of our 'leaders' are going to have any significant power in the remotely near future anyway. If we find a good one rally round and support him/her/them. And keep the pressure on them. Make them submit to critical evaluation in private but as long as they perform and behave reasonably avoid it in public.

Dont get hung up on having to achieve something massive. Dont get obseesed with 'we must build a massive presence'. To build a massive preence you first have to build a medium presence and before that a small one. Just dont go off half cocked is all.

My grandad was a miner. He used so say 'its the job as is never started taked longest to finish' he was right. Another way of putting it is 'you dont have to eat the apple in one bite'.

If you do nothing else and you are not already a member join a union tomorrow, any union.

And never forget to want at least something extra NOW, NOW , NOW every day.

Whoever said NOW NOW NOW first on this thread deserves a medal. This is exactly the spirit in which things happen.

Hasta la Victoria SIempre NOW !

[Elect Marx]

Building toward the revolution is currently the most important task but what of the after-math? How is it possible to construct a socialist state? What is the best way? I believe we are much farther away from that realization than a revolution and we must ensure that this is going in the right direction. How can we unite progressive groups of people before and after a revolution? I believe this to be the most fundamental question. If the front is devided after a revolution we could colapse and lose more than we had to begin with.

[Felicia]

Iron Star...... no offense, but the revolution has already started. It began long ago with slave rebellion, worker and labour rebellion, the growth of socialist and philosophical thought. It's just a matter of continuing the rebellion against imperialism and capitalism that will determine the path of the global revolution for the future. All that is neccessary for the individual to do is play a small role in cooperation with thousands, millions of others and the revolution will continue with the same strength and vigor as it's done in the past. Don't take it from me, I'm sure that you see aswell, everything spoken of and see it's just one long continuation of events that will keep the revolution charging forward.

[Elect Marx]

felicia,
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that on (also no offence). Rebellion is not revolution. Just as resistance is not change. "The revolution" is not in action. Slaves were "freed" for political reasons and not all of their own action. There was only worker reform, not close to anything I would call revolution. Society has not been restructured. Revolution must be global to work fully, as is stated by Marx.

[Felicia]

Quote: from 313C7 iVi4RX on 2:56 pm on July 21, 2003
felicia,
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that on (also no offence). Rebellion is not revolution. Just as resistance is not change. "The revolution" is not in action. Slaves were "freed" for political reasons and not all of their own action. There was only worker reform, not close to anything I would call revolution. Society has not been restructured. Revolution must be global to work fully, as is stated by Marx.

Oh? Slaves were freed for "political reasons"? Tell that to the millions of Haitian slaves that rebelled and took over their country 300 YEARS AGO making it the first black republic IN THE WORLD!!!! and then tell me that slaves were "freed" by politicians!!!! :angry: load of crock, I know yoiu're speaking of the US. I DO NOT speak strictly of the USA, I never speak soley of the USA.

Rebellion is an important factor in revolution. It's important to have worker/student rebellion and strikes while the revolution is taking place, they nearly go hand in hand during a time of war and revolution.

(Edited by felicia at 1:20 am on July 22, 2003)

[redstar2000]

I don't want to be 20 and still be hoping the revolution will come. Capitalism will last forever, if no one wipes its evil out. The time is now, now, now, now.

The truth is, you might be 90 and still hoping. Does that make a difference?

For some it certainly does. Essentially, they say that "if I can't have what I want while I'm still young enough to enjoy it, then fuck it!"

I can sympathize...why spend your whole life struggling for liberation from capitalism without success when it's so much easier to accept your lot in life and "try to make the best of it"? That's what most people do, most of the time in history.

The only answer that comes immediately to mind (mine, anyway) is that a lifetime spent in the struggle for communism is "authentic" in a way that all forms of submission and accomodation to capitalism are not...even if there is no revolution in that lifetime.

By "authentic", I mean "true to oneself"...in accordance with one's own sense of integrity, one's own desire for freedom.

The "pace" of social change in history is uneven and almost totally unpredictable. A small insurrection is usually crushed within days or weeks; the failure rate must approach 99.999%. Yet there have been occasions, extremely rare, where such an insurrection has "taken off" and seriously challenged or, even more rarely, actually "won" and generated major social changes. This was not because of any "special virtue" of those particular rebels...but because material conditions had matured to the point where revolution was "the only way out". And it's quite common that few or none actually anticipate that situation--Lenin made a speech to a group of young Bolsheviks in Switzerland in which he said that "we older revolutionaries will not live to see the revolution that you will make"...in, I believe, November of 1916.(!)

Revolutionaries sometimes become impatient...even to the point of giving up the struggle. That's just the way things happen. Anyone who promises you a "short-cut" to revolution is either very naive or, most likely, a fraud who should be dismissed with contempt. Real revolutions are massive uprisings involving nearly all of the working class...not actions taken by small groups fired with enthusiasm.

But small groups do play a key role in preparing the ground for revolution...by engaging in resistance to the capitalist class and encouraging others to do likewise, and by constantly condemning the existence of capitalism itself...refusing all attempts to "reform" it or make it more "humane".

My model of a revolutionary is actually based a good deal on the old American abolitionists...for the most part, they dismissed with contempt any effort to "reform" slavery or make it more "humane"--they condemned it absolutely and spent their lives fighting it without regard to "when they would win" or whether they would live long enough to see it ended.

So it should be for us, I think. Wage-slavery must be abolished...it is totally unacceptable. Whatever we can do to subvert, undermine, and ultimately destroy it is justified.

That's true whether or not we actually live to see it happen.

:cool:

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade felicia,
The Haitians ousted the French around the turn of the 19th Century. That was only about 200-210 years ago, not 300. Hate to nitpick, but I like to keep history accurate.

[Elect Marx]

Damn it felicia,
Get all pissy with me why don't you? You said "It began long ago with slave rebellion, worker and labour rebellion," which is most readily assosiated with events in the US. Also this thread has mostly been about revolution being spread to the US. Please don't get all flustered when I misinturpret something you failed to specify. Also, why the hell don't you ever "speak soley of the USA?" It is a very big problem.

[Hate Is Art]

heres a good saying "The Children Our Are Future is Just Passing the Buck" The Time for victory is now

[Felicia]

Marxist in NB,.... ok, ok, January 1st 1804..... better? That was when independence was won. The Haitian revolution began in August of 1791. Which would make it 212 years ago, better?

313C7 iVi4RX
I have no reason to speak solely of the US, I'm not American so my life doesn't revolve around past american events. Sue me.



(Edited by felicia at 12:07 am on July 24, 2003)

[Elect Marx]

Quote: from felicia on 4:03 am on July 24, 2003
[b]313C7 iVi4RX
I have no reason to speak solely of the US, I'm not American so my life doesn't revolve around past american events. Sue me.

I believe many people's lives outside of the US revolve around past american events. Bush stole the presidency -> people die.
"Sue me?" The frase is "So sue me," and that is capitalistic bullshit. I have no intrest in your money, unless you seek to "make profit" (steal) from the working class.

[Felicia]

huh? You're really not making any sence with that :confused:

okaaay, so I said "sue me" instead of "so sue me", what kind of person calls that? Oh, and "frase" is spelt "phrase", since you've started it.

Yeah, we revolve around american events....things that they've done to other countries in the past, etc. Bush is elected, I'm canadian, I can't help that, who's elected has nothing to do with me, christ. :angry:

[Elect Marx]

OK felicia,
I spell poorly for some reason, you have me there. The post made sense to me though yours did not. "who's elected has nothing to do with me, christ," I still disagree, the function of a capitalist society has a large impact on every country and Jesus is irrelevant. Don't get so upset! :P

[Felicia]

what?

Sure the acts of capitalist countries concern me as a leftist, but not as a canadian. And the US is only one of those countries.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

The actions of the United States should concern you as a Canadian. For example, the US government's disregard for the environment is going to screw you as well because of your proximity. If the US decides to drill for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska, it will screw over the caribou that spend most of their year in Canada.

[Felicia]

And I don't want them drilling in Alaska either. But after their nice little meat ban on canada, american tourists who come to canada to hunt carribou, moose and deer, can't bring their meat back home with them....I like that.

Yes that conserns me, hopefully the democrats will be elected next, hopefully they think differently about the environment.

Their disregard for the environment has already screwed me over directly. Last summer, a thick smog settled into the valley where I live, the smog (from their factories) came up from the eastcoast of the US. Boy wasn't I pissed about that, you can believe that!!!!!

[Neo Marx]

""Oh? Slaves were freed for "political reasons"? Tell that to the millions of Haitian slaves that rebelled and took over their country 300 YEARS AGO making it the first black republic IN THE WORLD!!!! and then tell me that slaves were "freed" by politicians!!!! load of crock, I know yoiu're speaking of the US. I DO NOT speak strictly of the USA, I never speak soley of the USA. ""

And look at Haiti now :/

[Felicia]

yes, their country is doing poorly economically. But atleast they aren't being ruled by the Fench, they are "free" to choose their leader now. They've had a horrible string of dictators in the past who have really screwed them over. And from what I can see, Aristide (their current president from the early-mid 90's) hasn't come through on his word to make haiti a better place.

They have their indipendence. That was their doing with the first slave revolution. Now they just need another one to set things straight.

[blackemma]

Sure the acts of capitalist countries concern me as a leftist, but not as a canadian. And the US is only one of those countries.

I'm a Canadian too and I will definitely say that what happens in the United States has a large impact on what happens in Canada. If you don't believe me, what's all the fuss about economic globalization? The North American Free Trade Agreement - that didn't affect us? What about the General Agreement on Trades and Tariffs - that didn't affect us either? Even if you wish to discount the ever-present neo-liberalism that dominates our world, how about the Bush administration's pressures on Canada to stop same-sex marriages or sending spokepeople to Canada to warn us of the dangers of decriminilization? Fortunately, Chretien, for all his faults, is attempting to gain glory before leaving office and isn't fully backing down to US interests, but the influence of US business on Canadian policy and our working class is significant.

[Elect Marx]

Thanks blackemma, thats more what I thought I should hear. I wonder how many Canadians are on here.