Berlin Wall

[Ismail]

Having an argument with a conservative capitalist on the Berlin wall. Essentially, he keeps on stating stuff like "But they walled in their own people!" on and on. What is your stance on it?

It seems the basic defense is that it was used to help against FRG military actions.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/wall.htm
Thats a East German brochure from 1962 defending the wall.

[apathy maybe]

Neither one, nor the other. Against all authority :AO:.

A pox on both their houses.

The enemy of my enemy, is not necessarily my friend.


I guess you can guess my stance...

Any real revolutionary should (obviously) oppose the capitalist states and work for their downfall. At the same time, they should also oppose and work for the downfall of such systems as existed in the former DDR. These oppressive centralised states are no desirable thing.

And while I oppose "conservatives", I also support to a certain degree the stance that "they walled their people in" (ignoring obvious problems with the terminology of that phrase). Obviously there was a certain amount of "self defence" behind the frontier system, but it wasn't the sole (or perhaps even the main) reason. Examine point four of that document... They admit to forcing skilled workers to stay in the East...

The documented cases of DDR border guards shooting people trying to cross from East to West supports this stance.

[Vargha Poralli]

Construction of Berlin Wall was a stupid structure built by Stalinist bureaucracy of Soviet Union and East Germany to win a war that was already lost by them. It served no purpose.

No wall is going to stand forever if it does not have strong foundation.

[Tower of Bebel]

There is no justice in building that wall. I guess there's no other possible answer.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 29, 2007 10:57 am
Examine point four of that document... They admit to forcing skilled workers to stay in the East...
That was an acceptable policy, given that skilled workers acquired their skills at the expense of the whole people, and given that such workers were usually lured into the West by the prospect of becoming part of the bourgeoisie. "Let's go to the West to exploit others!" was an attractive thought...

Basically, although workers as a whole have very slim chances of ascending into the bourgeoisie, there are a few small categories of skilled workers that may have very high chances of doing so in a given place and time. A workers' state must find some way to prevent such skilled workers from emigrating. A wall is a bad way to do it, but it's better than nothing.

As to my general opinion of the Berlin Wall - some kind of regulated border crossing into West Berlin was necessary, but putting up a wall was an idiotic idea that served only to further smear communism abroad. If the Wall was still up today, I would advocate its replacement with a normal international border. (which may involve a fence, and yes, border guards, but not shooting people for trying to get across; only a few hundred people ever tried to get over the Berlin Wall anyway)

[Genosse Kotze]

I didn't dig the wall, but it just goes to show you that, now that capitalism's there, more people are fleeing the east now, than they ever were before they built the fucking thing. Everybody in the US watched that big party in Berlin on the news when the wall fell, and just asumed that: "Finally they've put all their nasty history behind them and all the Germans lived happily ever after."...well, not quite I'm afraid.

[Red Rebel]

Walls don't work. The Great Wall of China, Maginot Line, Israel's Apartheid Wall ect.

The Berlin Wall was made to prevent the mass exodus from East Berlin to West Berlin. East Berlin/Germany invested lots into their citizens (healthcare, education, ect.) they were losing capital when those citizens left. Having a more open border policy would have worked (not a completely open one because of the capitalist threat). But what the East German government should have done was to let the people emmigrate legally (x number a year).

[hajduk]

Wall by Pink Floyd is the answer on this question.

[EwokUtopia]

True revolutionaries tear down walls and borders, not construct new ones.

[Janus]

The Berlin Wall was mainly an East German idea pushed forward by Ulbricht in order to end the mass exodus of East German citizens to the West. I believe that the Soviets were not very optimistic on the whole concept and originally held out as they wanted to resolve the issue of Berlin's division as a city. In the end though, they finally settled on the wall as the best alternative and some of the tensions died down.

[AnarchJim]

I'm studying the Cold War at the moment [though my teacher and the rest of my class is Capitalist, I do my own research to find it out from a Soviet point of view] and I have come to the conclusion that alot of what both sides did was not in the right [by in the right I refer to having a majoritive possitive effect]. Everything both sides of the world did was just increasing hatred and putting a wall up really made the 'Iron Curtain' Defined. But if you want to see the worse sort of things to it over building a great division look at the abolishing of the Communist Party from the U.S's so called Democracy and how many people became 'black listed' and had their lives destroyed, all because they were either Communist, Socialist or a Union Member. A wall dividing Germans against lives destroyed due to belief, I would care more about the lack of respect given to each side for being different.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Here's something a good comrade posted on another, non-political, forum a while back in response to an anti-communist:


But you refer to the Berlin Wall, right? Of course, the wall was actually created as much to keep people out as it was to keep people in.

The fairly large amount of people (mostly professionals) that left the GDR for the FRG (West Germany) was due to the abnormally high wages being paid in reconstruction era FRG. These high wages were made possible by the Marshall Plan -- massive coordinated investment by U.S. capitalists into the reconstruction of war torn Western Europe, which created the economic conditions for the powerful position the U.S. remains in today. "Popular American history" tells us it was because they were fleeing the evil communist empire, but a little research tells us otherwise.

At the same time, wages in the GDR were kept a little lower than normal because they were paying heavy reparations to some of the countries Nazi Germany destroyed (that were later liberated by the USSR and/or communist partisans). In my opinion, and the opinion of several others, they actually paid to high a percentage of what they had in reparations.

While all of this was going on, Germans from the West were literally flooding into East Berlin so they could buy things (prices in the East were much, much lower than those in the West due to subsidies and the planned economy). This was wreaking economic havoc on the GDR.

There were also numerous threats on the GDR from the U.S. and the West German government, on top of a number of terrorist attacks that were carried out in the East by anti-communists. The wall was and still is by many referred to in the East as "antifaschistischer Schutzwall," which roughly translates to "Anti-fascist protection wall."

But you don't mention that. You also don't mention that citizens of the GDR with a legitimate reason to travel to the West were allowed to leave freely through one of eight border crossings. Equally, those from the West and other countries with legitimate reaons to travel into the East could, and often did.

It's also important to remember that the East was always the poorest and most underdeveloped part of Germany; and that was before the war destroyed it.

Of course, the GDR (East Germany) was bureaucratic socialist at the time that the Berlin Wall was constructed, and it was a huge mistake. It'd be almost impossible to find a communist today that doesn't think so.

But the Berlin Wall, and the 192 people killed trying to cross it (in both directions) really pales in comparison to things like slavery, segregation and the massacre of millions of Native Americans doesn't it?

It's also interested to note, that a recent study (http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1300142,00.html) found "20% of Germans want the Wall back."

One thing no one here seems to think about is that socialism in the U.S. wouldn't be a replica of socialism in Russia, which was just coming out of semi-feudalism and dictatorship. It also won't be a replica of bureaucratic socialism in war-torn East Germany, or socialist Cuba which was born out of a colonial dictatorship.

Socialism is real democracy. It is rule by the workers (who make up the majority of the population), who will reorganize our workplaces to meet human need, not to create profits for the already filthy rich. What shape it takes will be up to us.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

No comments?

[Andy Bowden]

I'd basically agree with the premise of the article - the DDR regime was Stalinist, and as such there was little room for popular working class control or contribution into dealing with such problems.

Even in a genuine socialist state however, if you have a showcase capital right on your border with the aim of brain draining your economy, through artificially high wages (which wont exist if said socialist state is dismantled) thats going to cause massive problems even if said socialist state has genuine worker control.

[Organic Revolution]

The wall was created to systematically control people through symbols, much the same as border fences in the US today.

[Panda Tse Tung]

The last 'response' completely ignored previously made scientific statements about the events. I personally have two views on the wall. First of all, me as a human being, and second of all a scientific point of view.
As a human being i am certainly opposed to the building of that wall, but when you look at it from a scientific point of view taking into consideration the above-mentioned points combined with the facts that western intelligence agencies spread continuous propaganda to the east and several other economic problems evolving over the lack of this wall i think it was justifiable.

[Owen-]

Was there any justification for the berlin wall going up?

Everything in my history book seems so one sided and on the side of western capitalism

Im not in defence of the Soviet state but i just want to know..

Cheers

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Owen-@September 07, 2007 09:26 pm
Was there any justification for the berlin wall going up?

Everything in my history book seems so one sided and on the side of western capitalism

Im not in defence of the Soviet state but i just want to know..

Cheers
i think it was built with mutual intention to keep out enemy spies, propaganda etc.
(much for the same reasons the Korean DMZ still exists today)

Other than that i dont think any other 'justification' was ever offered :mellow:

[RedAnarchist]

The only reason I know was to stop people "fleeing" East Germany, but there must ahev been other reasons.

[sanpal]

I think the same as the "Iron Curtain" around the USSR

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 09:34 pm
The same as the Iron Curtain around the USSR
Maybe Im wrong but I thought the berlin wall was part of the 'iron curtain'?

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 10:34 pm
I think the same as the "Iron Curtain" around the USSR
And it wasnt around the USSR, but ran down Europe splitting it in more or less the middle between the capitalistic West and Soviet-dominated East.

[Demogorgon]

Largely to stop a drain of skilled workers to the west. Also to prevent people from West Berlin from using the subsidised shops in East Berlin.

It is kind of hard to justify to say the least

[Dr Mindbender]

Who was actually responsible for building it anyway? I think this would be a matter of great political implication.

[hajduk]

Berlin wall is made becouse the Americans whant to show that communism is the same like fascism

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 11:49 am
Berlin wall is made becouse the Americans whant to show that communism is the same like fascism
That's why the berlin wall was built on the orders of Khruschev...

[gilhyle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 09:47 pm
Largely to stop a drain of skilled workers to the west. Also to prevent people from West Berlin from using the subsidised shops in East Berlin.

It is kind of hard to justify to say the least
That was the reason...but it was entirely justified, in the circumstances, the problem is that the circumstances were indefensible. The DDR was not sustainable without the wall. Generally you cant have free movement of labour between planned economies and capitalist countires. The result will be that the planned economies invest in education etc. and then the capitalist countries benefit.

You see that even in the process of transition back to capitalsim in the degernated workers states. Capitalism benefits from the higher educational standards which existed in the degenerated workers states, but is unable to create capitalist economies in those geographical areas that reproduce those same standards of education.

Its not insignificant that the trigger for the final collapse of the degenerated workers states was the movement of east german workers through Hungary into the west.

[Tower of Bebel]

There was a saying in Western Europe: In the West they love money and that's why they put it behind fences and walls to protect it. In the East they love people, and that's why they fence them off.

Of course this is not true ;) .

[Wanted Man]

A propaganda brochure from the DDR at the time:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/wall.htm

[Janus]

Merged

[OneBrickOneVoice]

thanks Dick,

for posting that, it really actually changed my opinion on the Berlin Wall...

[EKOLYT3]

Originally posted by Dick [email protected] 08, 2007 12:04 pm
A propaganda brochure from the DDR at the time:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/wall.htm
that link's already at the start of the thread. Interesting read anyway :)