child martyrs, fundamentalist mouse

[Vinny Rafarino]

I was just looking at some of the crap coming from that pile of shit organisation called Hamas and found this crazy ass shit.

Apparently there is a children's show called Tomorrow's Pioneers shown on a Hamas controlled TV station Al-Aqsa TV that actually has an 11 year old girl, a main character on the show, claiming to be ready to become a martyr.

11 years old and ready to strap some explosives to her belly and blow herself to pieces.

Only a sad, pathetic organization would promote such an absurd act such as this.

More here (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/news/article/47211/hamas-tvs-child-star-says-shes-ready-for-martyrdom/)

Here's some other tidbits I found quite shocking as well:


The main character, Farfur (which translates into "butterfly", or rather a diminutive of fi'r, mouse in Arabic), is a costume character mouse with a high-pitched voice. The Western media has pointed to Farfur as a blatant copy of Mickey Mouse.

On the show, Farfur has stated such things as: "You and I are laying the foundation for a world led by Islamists" and "We will return the Islamic community to its former greatness, and liberate Jerusalem, God willing, liberate Iraq, God willing, and liberate all the countries of the Muslims invaded by the murderers." He simulates shooting an AK-47 and throwing grenades.

In an episode aired June 29, 2007, Farfur is beaten to death by an Israeli who was trying to buy his land. Farfur calls the Israeli a "terrorist."

The use of cartoon-like mascots to promote violence on Palestinian television is not unprecedented. Other Palestinian children's programs have used the Mickey Mouse image to incite radical activities. A 1998 episode of the program The Children's Club on official Palestinian Authority television had a "Mickey Mouse"-type figure amidst children praising suicide attacks against Israelis.

Bold added for all those cats who think there is no such this as religious imperialism.

I certainly hope all of you dopes that support Hamas and other organizations that promote the violent death of children wise up one day.

Hopefully before it's too late and it's your head on the chopping block!


Edit:

This fucked up scenario really got me curious so I dug around a bit. Check out this fucking shit:


Four-year-old girl vows to be suicide terrorist in Hamas TV dramatization - March 21, 2007

Hamas TV broadcast a video dramatization of the four-year-old daughter of female suicide bomber Reem Riyashi singing to her dead mother and vowing to follow in her footsteps. The video clip ends as the little girl picks up sticks of explosives from her mother's drawer.

[Daughter sees mother preparing explosives sticks]

"Mommy, what are you carrying
in your arms instead of me?

[Mother turns to hide bomb]

A toy or a present for me?...
Mommy Reem!
Why did you put on your veil?
Are you going out, Mommy?...
Come back quickly, Mommy
I can't sleep without you,
unless you tell me and Ubaydah [her brother] a bedtime story.

[Daughter sees mother's picture and news story about bombing on PA TV]

My mother, my mother,
Me and Ubaydah are awake and waiting for you
to come to put us to sleep.
Me and Ubaydah, oh Mommy,
still need you to wipe our tears...
Instead of me you carried a bomb in your hands.
Only now, I know what was more precious than us...
May your steps be blessed,
and may you be flawless for Jerusalem.
Me and Ubaydah wish we were there with you.

[Images of her mother's grave and the graves of other terrorists,
including Aayat Al-Akhras, 17-year-old female suicide terrorist]

Send greetings to our Messenger [Muhammad] and tell him:
'Duha loves you.'
My love will not be [merely] words.
I am following Mommy in her steps.

[Finds explosives that mother left in her drawer,
picks up stick of explosives]

Oh Mommy, oh Mommy."

[Al-Aqsa, March 21, 2007]


http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

Bold added.

Sick pieces of shit.

[Cheung Mo]

Islamism is an enemy ideology that had been propped up by Washington as a means of preventing revolution in the Middle East.

[Random Precision]

It's fucking sick what they're willing to do to children to win them to their ideology.

The only reason people on the left see these people as "freedom fighters" is that they're living in a country oppressed by US imperialism. Big fucking deal, an imperialist is an imperialist, no matter if he comes from the most opressed nation on earth. And this is what we see happen when these "freedom fighters" get in the saddle. :rolleyes:

I'm reminded of the struggle on the left when Ayatollah Khomeini came to power. Some said that he should be supported as an anti-imperialist, despite having politics that were slightly to the right of Genghis Khan. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 06, 2007 03:27 pm
Islamism is an enemy ideology that had been propped up by Washington as a means of preventing revolution in the Middle East.
Does that irrelevant statement mean that you think it's okay to teach toddlers that murdering others while blowing yourself to bits is okay?

[Cheung Mo]

Although Islamism is supported by people who have been oppressed at the hands of American imperialism, it was an ideology sponsored by Washington as a dead-end to prevent a viable alternative to said imperialism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 06, 2007 03:32 pm
Although Islamism is supported by people who have been oppressed at the hands of American imperialism, it was an ideology sponsored by Washington as a dead-end to prevent a viable alternative to said imperialism.
You just said this a few seconds ago and it's just as irrelevant now as it was then.

Now, i'll ask you again, do you think it's right to teach toddlers that murdering others while blowing yourself to bits is okay?

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Vinny Rafarino+September 06, 2007 10:34 pm--> (Vinny Rafarino @ September 06, 2007 10:34 pm)
Cheung [email protected] 06, 2007 03:32 pm
Although Islamism is supported by people who have been oppressed at the hands of American imperialism, it was an ideology sponsored by Washington as a dead-end to prevent a viable alternative to said imperialism.
You just said this a few seconds ago and it's just as irrelevant now as it was then.

Now, i'll ask you again, do you think it's right to teach toddlers that murdering others while blowing yourself to bits is okay? [/b]
Absolutely not. Which is why it is completely unjustifiable for those who criticise such ideas and their application to propose "alternatives" that created the material conditions that allowed these ideas to ferment in the first place.

Churchill and Eisenhower are much more responsible for the rise of Islamism in Iran than Khomeini had been, for instance.

[capstop]

And the Christians


Faith of Our Fathers
Verse 1
Faith of our fathers, living still
In spite of dungeon, fire and sword!
O how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene'er we hear that glorious word!
Faith of our fathers! Holy faith!
We will be true to Thee till death!
Verse 2
Our fathers, chained in prisons dark,
Were still in heart and conscience free.
How sweet would be their children's fate
If they, like them could die for thee!
Faith of our fathers! Holy faith!
We will be true to Thee till death!


Nothing new folks

[Faux Real]

I find this series to be quite entertaining. By the way, do you understand Arabic?

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 10:41 pm
And the Christians


Faith of Our Fathers
Verse 1
Faith of our fathers, living still
In spite of dungeon, fire and sword!
O how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene'er we hear that glorious word!
Faith of our fathers! Holy faith!
We will be true to Thee till death!
Verse 2
Our fathers, chained in prisons dark,
Were still in heart and conscience free.
How sweet would be their children's fate
If they, like them could die for thee!
Faith of our fathers! Holy faith!
We will be true to Thee till death!


Nothing new folks
I don't have nice words for Christian, Jewish, and Hindu extremists either.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Cheung Mo+September 06, 2007 03:38 pm--> (Cheung Mo @ September 06, 2007 03:38 pm)
Absolutely not. Which is why it is completely unjustifiable for those who criticise such ideas and their application to propose "alternatives" that created the material conditions that allowed these ideas to ferment in the first place.

Churchill and Eisenhower are much more responsible for the rise of Islamism in Iran than Khomeini had been, for instance. [/b]
Right on, I believe I'm picking up what you're laying down.


revolt
I find this series to be quite entertaining. By the way, do you understand Arabic?

Do you think it's right to teach toddlers this crap?

Never mind, I don't think you know what to believe.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by Vinny [email protected] 06, 2007 03:58 pm
Do you think it's right to teach toddlers this crap?

Never mind, I don't think you know what to believe.
You trust conventional Myspace-esque journalism to be the end-all source of information?

Also, I say again, do you understand Arabic?

Edit: Here (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/05/arabic_under_fire.html) you go sweetie. If you're too lazy to click on it I'll post it here but without its links.


Arabic under fire

A child on Hamas TV talked of annihilating the Jews ... or did she?

Memri, the "research institute" which specialises in translating portions of the Arabic media into English, has issued a video clip from a children's programme on Hamas TV in which it claims that a Palestinian girl talked of becoming a suicide bomber and annihilating the Jews.

Memri - described by New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman as "invaluable" - supplies translations free of charge to journalists, politicians and others, particularly in the US.

Though Memri claims to be "independent" and maintains that it does not "advocate causes or take sides", it is run by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence. Carmon's partner in setting up Memri was Meyrav Wurmser who in 1996 was one of the authors of the now-infamous "Clean Break" document which proposed reshaping Israel's "strategic environment" in the Middle East, starting with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

In the Hamas video clip issued by Memri, a Mickey Mouse lookalike asks a young girl what she will do "for the sake of al-Aqsa". Apparently trying to prompt an answer, the mouse makes a rifle-firing gesture and says "I'll shoot".

The child says: "I'm going to draw a picture."

Memri's translation ignores this remark and instead quotes the child (wrongly) as saying: "I'll shoot."

Pressed further by the mouse - "What are we going to do?" - the girl replies in Arabic: "Bidna nqawim." The normal translation of this would be "We're going to [or want to] resist" but Memri's translation puts a more aggressive spin on it: "We want to fight."

The mouse continues: "What then?"

According to Memri, the child replies: "We will annihilate the Jews."

The sound quality on the clip is not very good, but I have listened to it several times (as have a number of native Arabic speakers) and we can hear no word that might correspond to "annihilate".

What the girl seems to say is: "Bitokhoona al-yahood" - "The Jews will shoot us" or "The Jews are shooting us."

This is followed by further prompting - "We are going to defend al-Aqsa with our souls and blood, or are we not?"

Again, the girl's reply is not very clear, but it's either: "I'll become a martyr" or "We'll become martyrs."

In the context of the conversation, and in line with normal Arab-Islamic usage, martyrdom could simply mean being killed by the Israelis' shooting. However, Memri's translation of the sentence - "I will commit martyrdom" turns it into a deliberate act on the girl's part, and Colonel Carmon has since claimed that it refers to suicide bombers.

The overall effect of this is to change a conversation about resistance and sacrifice into a picture of unprovoked and seemingly motiveless aggression on the part of the Palestinians. But why hype the content in this way? Hamas's use of children's TV for propaganda purposes is clearly despicable, as the BBC, the Guardian and others have noted, without any need to exaggerate its content.

Among those misled by Memri's "translation" was Glenn Beck of CNN, who had planned to run it on his radio programme, until his producer told him to stop. Beck informed listeners this was because CNN's Arabic department had found "massive problems" with it.

Instead of broadcasting the tape, Beck then invited Carmon on to the programme and gave him a platform to denounce CNN's Arabic department, and in particular to accuse one of its staff, Octavia Nasr, of being ignorant about the language.

Carmon related a phone conversation he had had with Ms Nasr:

She said the sentence where it says [in Memri's translation] "We are going to ... we will annihilate the Jews", she said: "Well, our translators hear something else. They hear 'The Jews are shooting at us'."

I said to her: "You know, Octavia, the order of the words as you put it is upside down. You can't even get the order of the words right. Even someone who doesn't know Arabic would listen to the tape and would hear the word 'Jews' is at the end, and also it means it is something to be done to the Jews, not by the Jews."

And she insisted, no the word is in the beginning. I said: "Octavia, you just don't get it. It is at the end" ... She didn't know one from two, I mean.

Carmon's words succeeded in bamboozling Glenn "Israel shares my values" Beck, who told him: "This is amazing to me ... I appreciate all of your efforts. I appreciate what you do at Memri, it is important work."

It was indeed amazing, because in defending Memri's translation, Carmon took issue not only with CNN's Arabic department but also with all the Arabic grammar books. The word order in a typical Arabic sentence is not the same as in English: the verb comes first and so a sentence in Arabic which literally says "Are shooting at us the Jews" means "The Jews are shooting at us".

I have written about Memri's tweaking of translations before. One example was its manipulation of Osama bin Laden's speech on the eve of the last American presidential election (details here, at the end of the article). Another was an Egyptian newspaper's interview with the mufti of Jerusalem. Memri's translators changed the question: "How do you deal with the Jews who are besieging al-Aqsa and are scattered around it?" to "How do you feel about the Jews?" They then heavily edited the mufti's words to give an anti-semitic-sounding reply to the new question.

The curious thing about all this is that Memri's translations are usually accurate (though it is highly selective in what it chooses to translate and often removes things from their original context). When errors do occur, it's difficult to attribute them to incompetence or accidental lapses. As in the case of the children's TV programme, there appears to be a political motive.

The effect of this is to devalue everything Memri translates - good and bad alike. Responsible news organisations can't rely on anything it says without going back and checking its translations against the original Arabic.

[spartan]

fucking fucked up religious nutters :angry: they will all die when the revolution comes! there aint noway we can allow shitheads like that to live! i cant believe you can still defend these religious shitbags rev0lt! are you a reactionary or what?

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:19 pm
fucking fucked up religious nutters :angry: they will all die when the revolution comes! there aint noway we can allow shitheads like that to live!
Spoken like a true reactionary!

[spartan]

the only reactionary here is you rev0lt! stop defending religious imperialists who get off from little kids blowing themselves up. i think you need to grow up and wake up from your "but their anti imperialist" bullshit because i think it is obvious to every one but you that they are not!

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:23 pm
the only reactionary here is you rev0lt! stop defending religious imperialists who get off from little kids blowing themselves up. i think you need to grow up and wake up from your "but their anti imperialist" bullshit.
Eh, I won't bother. Find someone else to troll.

[spartan]

Eh, I won't bother. Find someone else to troll.
i think you are right! i dont think i will bother someone who supports groups who get off from seeing their brainwashed kids blowing themselves up. but hey there so anti imperialist right. the biggest enemy to the left is ignorance and you are a prime example of that.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:28 pm
the biggest enemy to the left is ignorance
Correct, your inability to read my second post of the thread exemplifies that. Now, can you respond to it or not?

Or how about these articles? 1 (http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2007/05/lies-of-memri-yet-again.html), 2 (http://alialarabicolumn.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-memeri-fooled-us-media.html)

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 11:05 pm

Arabic under fire

A child on Hamas TV talked of annihilating the Jews ... or did she?

Memri, the "research institute" which specialises in translating portions of the Arabic media into English, has issued a video clip from a children's programme on Hamas TV in which it claims that a Palestinian girl talked of becoming a suicide bomber and annihilating the Jews.

Memri - described by New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman as "invaluable" - supplies translations free of charge to journalists, politicians and others, particularly in the US.

Though Memri claims to be "independent" and maintains that it does not "advocate causes or take sides", it is run by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence. Carmon's partner in setting up Memri was Meyrav Wurmser who in 1996 was one of the authors of the now-infamous "Clean Break" document which proposed reshaping Israel's "strategic environment" in the Middle East, starting with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
People should be veeery wary of anything Memri puts its fingers on. They lie systematically, and their business is to promote hate against Israel's enemies.

Luís Henrique

[ComradeR]

Damn religious fundies, be they Islamists, Christians, or whatever they're all the same. While i do support any armed action against the imperialists, there is no justifying the use of children as soldiers, much less as weapons like this. Fundies are as much our enemy as the imperialists, they may make a useful temporary ally against imperialism in certain situations, but in the end they are no different then the imperialists.

[Hiero]

Bold added for all those cats who think there is no such this as religious imperialism.

There isn't. Imperialism has be provern through economics, it does not exist because this or that person wants it to exist.


While i do support any armed action against the imperialists, there is no justifying the use of children as soldiers, much less as weapons like this

Imperialism creates children soldiers. It forces children to arm themselves against agression. It creates a dire situation that breaks down conventional rules which create the morals about who can kill and who can be sacrificed.

[Intifada]

I smell bullshit, and rev0lt tells you why.

I find it funny, however, how Vinny - a Westerner who lives in the relative luxury of his home, sitting in front of his computer as if he knows everything about the world - can freely criticise groups in the Middle East without comprehending the conditions in which these children are forced to live in due to Israeli occupation of their land.

They would probably give their right arm to live like you do, and they have lost more in their short, miserable lives than you have or ever will.

The bottom line is that everything about Palestinian society can be traced back to Israeli occupation, and that occupation is what every person with a shred of humanity should be criticising first and foremost.

[capstop]

Vinny Rafarino
Cheng Mo
Catbert836
Spartan
ComradeR

For anyone who genuinely considers themselves to be a revolutionary, it can’t be a pleasant feeling when you realise that you have just been wound up and set to work in the interests of Zionism and US war propaganda generally.

However there is something you could do to offset any damage you may have caused. You could acknowledge the mistake that you made investing this Goebells style propaganda with any credibility and advise others against taking stories like this at face value. I feel that would be better than simply keeping quiet.

If on the other hand you are in fact genuine subjective sectarian anti-Arab, anti-Muslim chauvinist reactionaries just trying to pose as progressive atheists, then I for one would be happy for you to keep quiet.

Undoubtedly the most loyal of Hitler’s following was the youth. Teen and especially child minds are vulnerable to propaganda and irrational thought, which made them the easiest target for Dr.Goebells.

[spartan]

capstop i am not anti arab or anti muslim. i am anti religion and anti religious imperialism and extremism! i am also against responsible adults (or in this case unresponsible adults) using children as weapons. how can you defend these actions! no matter how bad a conflict gets there must be a line drawn when it comes to using children as weapons by any side in any conflict. it is just unacceptable! this group using children is ultimately going to hurt their cause more because of bad press than help it. but that does not matter to you pro religious extremism lot no because they are "anti imperialist" :lol: just a shame then that they are religious imperialists and that you dont realise that. but hey they are our "allies" right?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 08:04 am
I smell bullshit, and rev0lt tells you why.

I find it funny, however, how Vinny - a Westerner who lives in the relative luxury of his home, sitting in front of his computer as if he knows everything about the world - can freely criticise groups in the Middle East without comprehending the conditions in which these children are forced to live in due to Israeli occupation of their land.

They would probably give their right arm to live like you do, and they have lost more in their short, miserable lives than you have or ever will.

The bottom line is that everything about Palestinian society can be traced back to Israeli occupation, and that occupation is what every person with a shred of humanity should be criticising first and foremost.
QFT.

Thats what ive been trying to tell him the whole time.

Listen up Vinny.

[Revolution Until Victory]

"Relegious Imperialism"???

are you even serious?


Imperialism creates children soldiers. It forces children to arm themselves against agression. It creates a dire situation that breaks down conventional rules which create the morals about who can kill and who can be sacrificed.

defenatly. Children are always the first to rise up against opression and imperialism.

This is what Malcolm X had to say about the issue:


If you've studied the captives being caught by the American soldiers in South Vietnam, you'll find that these guerrillas are young people. Some of them are just children and some haven't reached their teens. Most are teenagers. It is the teenagers abroad, all over the world, who are actually involving themselves in the struggle to eliminate oppression and exploitation. In the Congo, the refugees point out that many of the Congolese revolutionaries, they shoot all the way down to seven years old - that's been reported in the press. Because the revolutionaries are children, young people. In these countries, the young people are the ones who most quickly identify with the struggle and the necessity to eliminate the evil conditions that exist. And here in this country, it has been my own observation that when you get into a conversation on racism and discrimination and segregation, you will find young people more incensed over it - they feel more filled with an urge to eliminate it.

And as Intifada said, the situation in a "third world" country whos fighting on the front line against imperialism is queit different from the situation in the imperialist country itself. No one is "brainwashing" them.

It's truely unbelievable how so-called "leftists" can adopt the Zionist, colonialist, imperialist, right-wing views so easly and use it to bash anti-imperialists and blame the victims.

Spare us this "Islamofacists eat their children OMG" crap. The involvment of children in the anti-imperilaist struggle is queit natural all over the world. This got nothing to do with "Islamic Fundemantalism" or "brainwashing". In fact, the youngest fighter to be ever used by the Palestinian armed revolution in a human bomb (aka "suicide bombing") was by the PFLP! do they happen to be "jihadis" too?
I bet that's what Vinny fucker-ino thinks of them.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:15 am
Vinny Rafarino
Cheng Mo
Catbert836
Spartan
ComradeR

For anyone who genuinely considers themselves to be a revolutionary, it can’t be a pleasant feeling when you realise that you have just been wound up and set to work in the interests of Zionism and US war propaganda generally.

However there is something you could do to offset any damage you may have caused. You could acknowledge the mistake that you made investing this Goebells style propaganda with any credibility and advise others against taking stories like this at face value. I feel that would be better than simply keeping quiet.

If on the other hand you are in fact genuine subjective sectarian anti-Arab, anti-Muslim chauvinist reactionaries just trying to pose as progressive atheists, then I for one would be happy for you to keep quiet.

Undoubtedly the most loyal of Hitler’s following was the youth. Teen and especially child minds are vulnerable to propaganda and irrational thought, which made them the easiest target for Dr.Goebells.
That article does not exist, it is on the moon, do not believe the Islamist lies! So you are in favour of brainwashing CHILDREN? For the love of GOD, won't someone please think of the CHILDREN!!!

[capstop]

capstop i am not anti arab or anti muslim. i am anti religion and anti religious imperialism and extremism! i am also against responsible adults (or in this case unresponsible adults) using children as weapons. how can you defend these actions! no matter how bad a conflict gets there must be a line drawn when it comes to using children as weapons by any side in any conflict. it is just unacceptable! this group using children is ultimately going to hurt their cause more because of bad press than help it. but that does not matter to you pro religious extremism lot no because they are anti imperialist" just a shame then that they are religious imperialists and that you dont realise that. but hey they are our "allies" right?


If you did read rv0lt’s clear debunking of this nonsense, your ranting response confirms your true position. If you did not read it, your ranting response also confirms your true position.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by "revolt"+--> ("revolt")You trust conventional Myspace-esque journalism to be the end-all source of information?[/b]

What are you on son?

This story is all over the internet and has been reported by dozens of non "myspace-esque (whatever that nonsense means). Since we're not talking about if the chick said "we will annihilate the Jews" but rather that she said she wants to become a martyr (a statement even your sources agree with) your little "spin dance" is worthless.

Since your habing trouble with your comprehension, I will ask you again.:

Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right?

Don't worry, we all know you won't answer.

Pussy.


Spoken like a true reactionary!

A state of mind you're most certainly accustomed to.


Originally posted by hiero+--> (hiero)There isn't. Imperialism has be provern through economics, it does not exist because this or that person wants it to exist.[/b]

What are you smoking homes?


Originally posted by intifada
I find it funny, however, how Vinny - a Westerner who lives in the relative luxury of his home, sitting in front of his computer as if he knows everything about the world - can freely criticise groups in the Middle East without comprehending the conditions in which these children are forced to live in due to Israeli occupation of their land.

As opposed to you sitting in the luxury of your home on your computer supporting reactionary bullshit?

In addition, I don't even have a computer at home. I only have one at the office; you know at my job.

Something teeny-boppers like yourself haven't become familiar with yet.


They would probably give their right arm to live like you do, and they have lost more in their short, miserable lives than you have or ever will.

And how does that make child abuse okay?


Originally posted by capstop
it can’t be a pleasant feeling when you realise that you have just been wound up and set to work in the interests of Zionism and US war propaganda generally.


Actually I've been "wound up" by the actions of some religious zealots and their apologists.

Let see where you stand on this issue:

Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right?

Funny, not one of you has answered yet....



However there is something you could do to offset any damage you may have caused. You could acknowledge the mistake that you made investing this Goebells style propaganda with any credibility and advise others against taking stories like this at face value. I feel that would be better than simply keeping quiet.

I'll make you a deal, once you apologize for supporting reactionary, oppressive, fanatical "movements" then I will promise to mill it over. :lol:


Undoubtedly the most loyal of Hitler’s following was the youth. Teen and especially child minds are vulnerable to propaganda and irrational thought, which made them the easiest target for Dr.Goebells.

I agree.

That's why we fight against crap like this.


If on the other hand you are in fact genuine subjective sectarian anti-Arab, anti-Muslim chauvinist reactionaries just trying to pose as progressive atheists, then I for one would be happy for you to keep quiet.

That's the best you can do? These cheap insults aren't clever or colourful; I'm not impressed.


loudmouthed [email protected]
Listen up Vinny.

Don't you have some silly pretend IRA meeting to attend in the school cafeteria where you can flap your gums at?


revolution until victory
are you even serious?

Are you saying that the numerous empires that were constructed in the name of a god are somehow "right wing propaganda" that has been added to history? :lol:

Considering your support for reactionaries, It wouldn't shock me if you were.


The involvment of children in the anti-imperilaist struggle is queit natural all over the world.

Do you think that's okay?

Be careful how you answer that one son.


I bet that's what Vinny fucker-ino thinks of them.


I believe the legal age for gambling is generally around 18.

Look me up in a few years when you're legal and I will take that bet.

[spartan]

capstop kids should not be used as propoganda tools to score political points either! or to make a bunch of so called leftists believe that a bunch of religious imperialists are anti imperialist and the lefts allies.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by capstop the madness
If you did read rv0lt’s clear debunking of this nonsense, your ranting response confirms your true position. If you did not read it, your ranting response also confirms your true position.

Which article was that? The first one that confirms the thread topic or the second one that confirms the thread topic?

How's the weather on Pluto these days?

[Demogorgon]

Telling kids to become Martyrs is not okay.

But what does Vinny Rafarino care? In a few years she will be another adult Muslim (almost certainly religious given her enviromnent) and will simply be subject to his contempt. Crocodile tears.

[Faux Real]

This story is all over the internet and has been reported by dozens of non "myspace-esque (whatever that nonsense means).
Which all use the same source of information, with the Memri spin videos.

Since we're not talking about if the chick said "we will annihilate the Jews" but rather that she said she wants to become a martyr (a statement even your sources agree with) your little "spin dance" is worthless.
Her wish is to become a doctor, I applaud that. If she can't become one she wishes to become a martyr, yes. Now, your definition of "martyr" seems to be the stereotypical bomber who hits a random grocery shop. Sadly I'm afraid your one dementionalist view on the word makes you jump out of your chair and scream Jihad Joe! :lol:

You really should read the UK Guardian or other Indi sources rather than CNN/FOX/BBC, etc.

Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right?
Yeah. They resist the occupation from the moment of their inception.

Pussy.
What does that mean? :blush:


A state of mind you're most certainly accustomed to [seeing].
Indeed, I notice it among a certain few members of this board.


capstop kids should not be used as propoganda tools to score political points either! or to make a bunch of so called leftists believe that a bunch of religious imperialists are anti imperialist and the lefts allies.
So we shouldn't talk about the starving kids who die in the hundreds of thousands yearly due to poverty and the pillage of their homes thanks to international free trade? :rolleyes:

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Vinny [email protected] 07, 2007 05:26 pm
Are you saying that the numerous empires that were constructed in the name of a god are somehow "right wing propaganda" that has been added to history? :lol:

Are you saying the conquerers would have stayed at home and been nice boys if they hadn't believed in God?

[Revolution Until Victory]

Since we're not talking about if the chick said "we will annihilate the Jews" but rather that she said she wants to become a martyr (a statement even your sources agree with) your little "spin dance" is worthless.

if you actually read the article, you would realize how stupid this is. Martyr, in this context, the Palestinian intifada, simply means getting shot or killed. It's more of an expression of helplessness and inability, rather than action. It doesn't mean she will strap some bombs and blow up hereself, rather, it means she will be shot and killed by the Zionists.


Are you saying that the numerous empires that were constructed in the name of a god are somehow "right wing propaganda" that has been added to history?

those are compleltely different issues and situations. I was referring to current issue and context (Palestine).


Considering your support for reactionaries, It wouldn't shock me if you were.

I never supported you or your ilk so how am I supporting "reactionaries" then??



The involvment of children in the anti-imperilaist struggle is queit natural all over the world.

Do you think that's okay?

Be careful how you answer that one son.

I think it's among the most disapointing things to see children loosing their innocense to fight opression and imperilaism. But that is a different issue.


I believe the legal age for gambling is generally around 18.

Look me up in a few years when you're legal and I will take that bet.

1- I'm over 18

2- I already won this bet. I remember in some thread in the OI, you claimed that all those who use suicide bombings in the Palestine issue are "Islamic fundemantalists" or "Jihadies" (or something along those lines), and as we know, the PFLP had numours of them, thus, according to you, the PFLP is "Jihadi".

And nothing wrong with teaching your children and your people to be anti-imperialist and fight off agression and opression. You may call it a "martyr" if you like, but that wouldn't change anything. I'm not saying it's a good thing, no it's disappointing, but in the current position that Imperialism has forced on the opressed masses, unfavorable measures should be taken in unvaforable situations.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Her wish is to become a doctor, I applaud that. If she can't become one she wishes to become a martyr, yes. Now, your definition of "martyr" seems to be the stereotypical bomber who hits a random grocery shop.

My definition of martyr is no different than anyone else's who knows what the word means.

You spin faster than a dradel.

I mean faster than a top; I wouldn't want you to somehow spin my reference to a Jewish toy into "supporting Zionism." :lol:

In any case you're one sick fuck if you think that an 11 year old kid should be killed for any reason!


ou really should read the UK Guardian or other Indi sources rather than CNN/FOX/BBC, etc.

The old "right wing conspiracy" is at it again it seems.


Yeah. They resist the occupation from the moment of their inception.

Good grief what a joke.


So we shouldn't talk about the starving kids who die in the hundreds of thousands yearly due to poverty and the pillage of their homes thanks to international free trade

Start a thread and let's talk about it then.

[RNK]

FFS, is there any reason to start trolling around the fucking forum on a god damned anti-islamist crusade? Yeah, we get it, islamic fundamentalism =/= legitimate anti-imperialism.

The point is, who causes more suffering in Palestine (and has for the past 60-odd years), islamic fundamentalism or Israeli-American imperialism?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 10:57 am
The point is, who causes more suffering in Palestine (and has for the past 60-odd years), islamic fundamentalism or Israeli-American imperialism?
Does that mean you agree with children being martyrs?

[spartan]

The point is, who causes more suffering in Palestine (and has for the past 60-odd years), islamic fundamentalism or Israeli-American imperialism?
both! the fact is no one side have caused more suffering than the other because both are as bad as each other. good god a maoist who supports religious imperialism the fucking worst of everything all rolled into one with you RNK.

[Revolution Until Victory]

My definition of martyr is no different than anyone else's who knows what the word means.

OMG!!! EVERYTHING needs context!!!

CONTEXT


both! the fact is no one side have caused more suffering than the other because both are as bad as each other. good god a maoist who supports religious imperialism the fucking worst of everything all rolled into one with RNK.

please, do us all a favor and spare us your bullshit.

[spartan]

why dont you spare us your bullshit revolution until victory.

[black magick hustla]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg

here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by Vinny Rafarino+September 07, 2007 05:59 pm--> (Vinny Rafarino @ September 07, 2007 05:59 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 10:57 am
The point is, who causes more suffering in Palestine (and has for the past 60-odd years), islamic fundamentalism or Israeli-American imperialism?
Does that mean you agree with children being martyrs? [/b]
You ought to answer the question you were asked, if you want others to answer your inane questions.

More to the point you ought to put these things in context and understand that this might have more to do with Israeli occupation than religious superstition.

[spartan]

great post marmot! and like you said it should shut up all those islamic apoligists.

[spartan]

Demogorgon do you think that groups like hamas would mind if an islamic movement conquered the world and commited genocide against all non muslims? because something tells me that they would probably jump at the opportunity to be a part of a movement like that. groups like hamas and hezbollah have in thinking moved way beyond their respective nations and no longer care for them only their silly idea of a world run by muslims according to sharia law.

[Revolution Until Victory]

here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up


great post marmot! and like you said it should shut up all those islamic apoligists.

Fuck off.

There is no "Islamic Apologists" on this thread. Only colonial/imperialist/Zionist apologists. Vinny and Spartan are great examples.

[spartan]

Fuck off.

There is no "Islamic Apologists" on this thread. Only colonial/imperialist/Zionist apologists. Vinny and Spartan are great examples
wow i dont know what to say! next you will be saying that all jews are a part of a group called the zionist occupation government (zog) who run the whole world! with the goal of wiping out all the aryans! :lol: grow up comrade and stop defending islamist scum. and oh yeah we anti islamist lot are not pro western either so stop with the pro zionist bullshit because it aint going to work with us lad.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Demogorgon do you think that groups like hamas would mind if an islamic movement conquered the world and commited genocide against all non muslims? because something tells me that they would probably jump at the opportunity to be a part of a movement like that. groups like hamas and hezbollah have in thinking moved way beyond their respective nations and no longer care for them only their silly idea of a world run by muslims according to sharia law.

1. It is irrelivant what anti-imperialist groups that allie with communists plan to do AFTER the eradiction of imperialism. The allience is supposed to be temproray. It is viewed this way by both sides, the communists and the others.

2. Both Hamas and Hizbollah are national liberation groups that got no aspiration beyond demolishing imperialism and colonialism in thier areas.

[Revolution Until Victory]

wow i dont know what to say! next you will be saying that jews are part of a group called the zionist occupation government (zog) who run the whole world!

haahaa :lol:

what on earth are you talking about??

[Revolution Until Victory]

wow i dont know what to say! next you will be saying that all jews are a part of a group called the zionist occupation government (zog) who run the whole world! with the goal of wiping out all the aryans! grow up comrade and stop defending islamist scum. and oh yeah we anti islamist lot are not pro western either so stop with the pro zionist bullshit because it aint going to work with us.

1. Would you please stop editing every single post 2 secs after you post it?!

2. What you and Vinny are doing is por-Western imperialism/Zionism, wether you mean it or not.

[spartan]

1. Would you please stop editing every single post 2 secs after you post it?!

2. What you and Vinny are doing is por-Western imperialism/Zionism, wether you mean it or not.
first off everyone has an edit option so i will edit anyone of my posts whenever i like as there is no rule against this.
secondly me and vinny are not pro western/zionism we just see past all sets of lies whether they be western/zionist or islamist or stupid ignorant so called leftist lies.

[Intifada]

(Vinny)

As opposed to you sitting in the luxury of your home on your computer supporting reactionary bullshit?


I do not support Hamas.


In addition, I don't even have a computer at home. I only have one at the office; you know at my job.


At least you have a job and can earn some money, unlike the thousands of Gazans who have lost their jobs due to the Israeli-US led blockade of the Strip after Hamas were democratically elected to power. But, I guess that those workers mean nothing to you due to the fact that they are Arabs/Muslims.

Needless to say, no matter how much you feel you suffer, that suffering pales in comparison to the suffering of Palestinians under Israeli occupation, unless you too are dependent on aid packages and also live in an open-air prison?


Something teeny-boppers like yourself haven't become familiar with yet.

I know about working, don't you worry about that.

I notice you have a habit of typing trollish responses.


And how does that make child abuse okay?


It does not make child abuse okay, yet you fail to understand my point completely.

Palestinian society has been destroyed by Israeli occupation. That is what imperialism has the habit of doing.

The bottom line is that your article (as well as the countless others that did the rounds on the world-wide-web) stems from a wholly unreliable source which has been refuted by people who understand Arabic better than you.

(Marmot)

here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up

Again, the source is Little Green Footballs (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/), a highly anti-Muslim/Arab website which I cannot take seriously.

[Revolution Until Victory]

first off everyone has an edit option so i will edit anyone of my posts whenever i like as there is no rule against this.

I'm not saying it's "illegal" to edit your post, but editing almost all of your posts direclty after you post it isn't efficent and causes a lot of troubel for those who attempt to respond.

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:37 pm
Demogorgon do you think that groups like hamas would mind if an islamic movement conquered the world and commited genocide against all non muslims? because something tells me that they would probably jump at the opportunity to be a part of a movement like that. groups like hamas and hezbollah have in thinking moved way beyond their respective nations and no longer care for them only their silly idea of a world run by muslims according to sharia law.
I am sure they would support it, but the question would not be so much whether they would support it, but why it would happen and have support in the first place.

Do you really think people join Hamas or whatever because they have a religious belief telling them to do it? Don't you think the presence of Israel has just a smidgeon to do with it?

Unless of course you believe people's actions are determined by ideas in their heads coming from silly ideologies rather than material conditions...

[spartan]

I'm not saying it's "illegal" to edit your post, but editing almost all of your posts direclty after you post it isn't efficent and causes a lot of troubel for those who attempt to respond.
i am sorry RUV but as soon as i finish a post i find something that i need to change or add to and then it is to late because i have already posted it! hence the editing straight after posting all the time. plus when it is connected with the same post there is no point in starting a new one afterwards.

[RNK]

Originally posted by Vinny Rafarino+September 07, 2007 05:59 pm--> (Vinny Rafarino @ September 07, 2007 05:59 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 10:57 am
The point is, who causes more suffering in Palestine (and has for the past 60-odd years), islamic fundamentalism or Israeli-American imperialism?
Does that mean you agree with children being martyrs? [/b]
Obviously not. Stop forcing yourself to be an idiot. It's painful to watch. Just answer the question. Since you seem to have made it your personal mission to destroy what you see as 'islamic fundamentalism' without worry or thought as to what it actually is, and what differentiates "islamic fundamentalism" from "legitimate mass resistance", you really have to start elaborating on what, in your bible -- I mean manifesto, is the difference.

Do you believe that the people of Palestine do not have the right to rise up and defend themselves? Do you believe that that right is dependant on the banner they carry with them? Do you believe that the right to self-defense against imperialism is somehow forfeit if their ideology does not match yours? Is it possible that suffering is suffering reguardless of religion?

For fuck's sake, get it through your head, nobody here is defending "political islam". They are defending the Palestinian people against your unjustified denunciation of their suffering and struggle against zionism because there are fundamentalists involved. There was a jihad proclaimed against Nazi Germany during WW2 -- according to your "analysis", that automatically means that all attempts to fight Nazism are illegitimate because it shares an agenda with a fundamentalist decree.

Or perhaps I should "go back to school" because my "knowledge" simply can't stack up to "yours" :lol: Your time in prison really must've fucked with your head. Now make a post without trolling.

Also, spartan, you're a complete idiot.

"I don't support Kim Jong Il but I do support North Korea having nuclear weapons!" I suppose the irony of this will be lost to you, though.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 11:22 am
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg

here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up
No thanks, I won't accept the failures of translations by the hate spewing Zionist organizations.

By the way, the article I posted covers it quite well already, I recommend you read it. :)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 06:51 pm

I do not support Hamas.



Then what is the whole point of your argument?

Nobody here dislikes muslims, in the same way nobody here dislikes christians.

However, the bottom line is that, islamist leaders are enemies of the international proletariat, in the same way christian leaders are.

The choice between American imperialism and political islamism is a choiceless choice. This is what many "anti-imperialists" fail to understand. Only mediocre liberals make that kind of choices, in the same way they would make the choiceless choice of Democrats over Republicans.

What is the point of being a communist if you are unable to see communism as an alternative?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by rev0lt+September 07, 2007 07:34 pm--> (rev0lt @ September 07, 2007 07:34 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 11:22 am
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg

here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up
No thanks, I won't accept the failures of translations by the hate spewing Zionist organizations.

By the way, the article I posted covers it quite well already, I recommend you read it. :) [/b]
Actually, the video doesnt says anything as disturbing as KILLING JEWS or BLOWING YOURSELF UP.

It does, however, make hamas' intensions very clear: submitting the world under islamic theocracy.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 12:43 pm
Actually, the video doesnt says anything as disturbing as KILLING JEWS or BLOWING YOURSELF UP.

It does, however, make hamas' intensions very clear: submitting the world under islamic theocracy.
Find that video with an unbiased translator.

Has it ever occurred to you that Hamas can be as popular as it is with the people there? They are merely a vanguard for National Liberation. Non-Muslims do join them, or one of their other allied organizations based within the country supporting the resistance. Should a communist revolution occur, what makes you think they (edit)won't change their economic system with the help of other nations and finally be at peace?

How many organizations walk the talk anyway...

Believe it if you want. I don't expect people like you to want to see the truth. You're more interested in a 'controversial cartoon show' than the thousands of Palestinians detained in Zionist prisons and slaughtered daily.

[spartan]

Believe it if you want. I don't expect people like you to want to see the truth. You're more interested in a 'controversial cartoon show' than the thousands of Palestinians detained in Zionist prisons and slaughtered daily.
and what about all the israeli civilians suffering from palestinian suicide and rocket attacks? or did you just convieniently forget about them whilst you orgasmed over your "brave" religious imperialists hamas?

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 12:59 pm

Believe it if you want. I don't expect people like you to want to see the truth. You're more interested in a 'controversial cartoon show' than the thousands of Palestinians detained in Zionist prisons and slaughtered daily.
and what about all the israeli civilians suffering from palestinian suicide and rocket attacks? or did you just convieniently forget about them whilst you orgasmed over your "brave" religious imperialists hamas?
Ever hear of the word retaliation?

[Demogorgon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:59 pm

Believe it if you want. I don't expect people like you to want to see the truth. You're more interested in a 'controversial cartoon show' than the thousands of Palestinians detained in Zionist prisons and slaughtered daily.
and what about all the israeli civilians suffering from palestinian suicide and rocket attacks? or did you just convieniently forget about them whilst you orgasmed over your "brave" religious imperialists hamas?
Every Israeli i have ever spoken to, whatever their political position, has said the threat of terrorist attacks is insignificant. One right wing Israeli, when trying to persuade me to visit Israel even said I would probably be safer in Israel than I am here. I do not wih to say nobody ever suffers in Israel and certainly won't say there is no unjustified suffering but the threat of terrorist attacks manifests itself more in nuisance regulations than in threat of dying for Israelis and is incomparable to what the Palestinians suffer.

The biggest cause of suffering for Israelis is compulsory military service and stifling religious laws, but that is another story.

[spartan]

Ever hear of the word retaliation?
and what that makes it okay? or even justifiable? nothing any side does in this fucked up conflict is justifiable anymore. the situation has got to the point where it is simply beyond all that.

[Councilman Doug]

My definition of martyr is no different than anyone else's who knows what the word means.

Would your definition include being killed by Palestinians while on patrol as a soldier in the IDF?

All Israeli children know from a young age that they too may be forced in to martyrdom when they turn 18. Why aren’t you concerned about that?

Maybe the reason you find the show so "sick" has more to do with your inability to respect or understand any culture outside of your own.


Do you think it's right to teach toddlers this crap?

Very few people would prefer to have children involved in a violent struggle. But when an occupation affects almost every aspect of life and the majority of the occupied support the cause of resistance, it will inevitably be present in almost every form of media.

The show is obviously an indoctrination tool, not a terrorist instruction video. It introduces children to a popular line of thought that they are most likely already aware of.

Almost every society attempts to indoctrinate its children at an early age. In the US you have video games where you play as soldiers in the Middle East, or DARE videos featuring popular cartoon characters.

If you think this indoctrination is, in general, unacceptable that is a legitimate argument.

You, however, have isolated a single example and attempted to analyze it as if it were a problem found only among these “sick” Muslims.


secondly me and vinny are not pro western/zionism we just see past all sets of lies whether they be western/zionist or islamist or stupid ignorant so called leftist lies.

At least Vinny attempts to provide sources for his misguided views. You on the other hand just say whatever goes with your argument, whether it is true or not.

For example: you said both sides in the Palestine conflict cause as much suffering as the other. How can you reconcile that with the statistics that show that for every one Israeli killed, three Palestinians are also killed (the ratio is even greater when children are specified)?

[RNK]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:59 pm

Believe it if you want. I don't expect people like you to want to see the truth. You're more interested in a 'controversial cartoon show' than the thousands of Palestinians detained in Zionist prisons and slaughtered daily.
and what about all the israeli civilians suffering from palestinian suicide and rocket attacks? or did you just convieniently forget about them whilst you orgasmed over your "brave" religious imperialists hamas?
If anything, the burden of responsibility for the deaths of innocent Israelis lies in the hands of Israeli and US imperialism, just as the massive devestation wrought on Germany during WW2 was the responsibility of Hitler's Nazism. Palestinian's don't wake up one day and decide it'd be fun to go blow themselves up in a Tel Aviv cafe. They wake up one day to the Israeli military storming their neighbourhood, detaining their community leaders, shooting children, firing on unarmed crowds, and decide that they've got to defend themselves. The fact is that every act of Palestinian resistance is an act of reaction and defense, not aggression or "islamic imperialism" as Vinny would probably suggest. For someone as young as you, it'd probably be impossible to understand the psychological effects of watching your people suffer so greatly. I have a budding family now, and I'll admit, if my family suffered under the conditions that Palestinians do, I'd damned well give my life up to defend them. I may not strap a bomb to myself, but I'd sure as hell give up my life.

I also have a feeling that there is so much "disgust" for "strapping a bomb to yourself" because of serious inability to recognize that all cultures are not like yours. Fact is, very few of us would ever be willing to endanger ourselves, let alone knowingly place ourselves in a situation where we may be killed. In war, especially in a war of defense (real or perceived), especially in desperate circumstances (real or perceived), people are willing to do what would otherwise be psychologically impossible. Japanese kamikazes are the most well-known for this -- though rather than strap a bomb to themselves, they strapped themselves to a bomb, and this was for a perceived notion of desperation and obedience to their people. Throughout WW2, soldiers would knowingly sacrafice themselves for their comrades or their people; soldiers who'd jump onto a grenade to save their buddies, who'd draw fire from the enemy so their buddies could escape, etc.

Really, it depends on the context of the act. Nobody really cares about the German soldier who walked down the street in the Warsaw ghetto to be shot at so his buddies could find out where a sniper was -- if he died, good, he was a Nazi soldier. And Japanese kamikazes, good that they died, they were imperialist lemmings. They were aggressors who sacrafice themselves for some undeniably sick reason. But Palestinians do suffer. They are not aggressors. Reguardless of their religion.

I also have the feeling that if Palestinians weren't muslims, and if that conflict was taking place in Latin America, nobody would really have anything bad to say about it. Afterall, none of us are strangers to brutality and violence; we've all come to accept that violence is necessary so long as it has a justifiable cause -- declaring a revolutionary war against the bourgeois, or imperialism, or whathaveyou. But there seems to be a double-standard when its muslims (or even non-muslim arabs) carrying out violent actions. There's no differentiating between justifiable and non-justifiable -- they're simply fundamentalists because they're violent muslims. If anything, it shows how weak-minded certain members of this forum are, that they've so easily and so excitedly embraced the imperialist propaganda machine.

[Red Scare]

i have no problem with islam, but when it is islam extremism or fundementalism it is some fucked up shit :angry: , its sad that that girl would give up her life for crazy hamas, it is crazy that all these people are being sucked into Hamas when they could join Fatah....

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 07:35 pm
Then what is the whole point of your argument?
Let us ignore the veraciousness of the story and accusations that have been presented by the thread-starter.

The bottom line is that everything about Palestinian society can be traced back to Israeli occupation, and that occupation is what every person with a shred of humanity should be criticising first and foremost.


Nobody here dislikes muslims, in the same way nobody here dislikes christians.

I beg to differ.

Vinny (from what I have read even outside of this thread) hates Islam and Muslims.

That is the perception I have of him.


However, the bottom line is that, islamist leaders are enemies of the international proletariat, in the same way christian leaders are.

Israeli occupation creates the fertile ground for Islamic extremism.

In fact, Hamas was directly funded by Israel in an attempt to undermine the secular PLO. It's ironic because now the Israelis and Washington are arming and funding Abbas. Both are simply a case of the classic imperial tactic of divide and conquer.


The choice between American imperialism and political islamism is a choiceless choice.

That is not a choice I am interested in making.

The choice is simple: Occupation or justice?

Until there is justice for Palestine, there will be no peace.


What is the point of being a communist if you are unable to see communism as an alternative?

I see communism as an alternative in an industrialised nation (as Marx himself believed). Palestine is occupied by Israel, so the only option for the Palestinian people is to resist that occupation or continue to lead a life of abject misery.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:22 pm
i have no problem with islam, but when it is islam extremism or fundementalism it is some fucked up shit :angry: , its sad that that girl would give up her life for crazy hamas
True, I don't want to see children die. Unfortunately they(and women) are usually victims of unprovoked, Israeli attacks.

Though I don't think she's willing to die for Hamas, but for her country and an opportunity for an end to the conflict/occupation and self-determination for the people. That's the common misconception.

[Intifada]

The fact that this girl would even think about becoming a martyr (which does not have the automatic implication that she wants to kill Israelis too) should force people to question why that child is ready to die.

If one takes a look at the situation on the ground, it comes as no surprise that Palestinian children say such things.

Occupation creates such a state of mind.

These children know nothing but violence and wretchedness.

[Revolution Until Victory]

and what about all the israeli civilians suffering from palestinian suicide and rocket attacks? or did you just convieniently forget about them whilst you orgasmed over your "brave" religious imperialists hamas?

please, stop using this false argument of "everyone is bad. everyone suffers". This is something no rational person, let alone a leftist would ever use. In a colonial experience, one side exploites, the other get exploited. One side dominate, the other dominated. One side colonize, the other colonized. One side opress, the other opressed. A master and a slave. A settler and a native. This is the relationship. You are following the stupid argument of compromise with colonialism.

You ask about Israli colonizers suffering from Palestinian "sucide bombings" and rocket attacks??

I don't! I don't sympathize with those colonizers for the same reason I won't sympathize with the French colonizers suffering from Algerian "terrorist" attacks, Portugese colonizers suffering from Angolan "terrorist" attacks, European colonizers suffering from Zimbabwen "terrorist" attacks, or European colonizers suffering from native american attacks. The two sides in the conflict, just like the 2 sides in the previous colonial experience, are in no way equally moral, wrong, or right.


The show is obviously an indoctrination tool, not a terrorist instruction video. It introduces children to a popular line of thought that they are most likely already aware of.

good point.


its sad that that girl would give up her life for crazy hamas

what???


It does, however, make hamas' intensions very clear: submitting the world under islamic theocracy.

please be serious and stop acting like a 6 year old. How the hell does what this little girl and that guy (micky) said in any way reflect the position of Hamas?


The choice between American imperialism and political islamism is a choiceless choice.

what "choice" are you talking about?? no one here is asking you to make a "choice". This is simply a mere temproray allience with an anti-imperialist force who happnes to have a different ideaology than yours. You don't have to agree with all of its positions, nor do you have to adopt its ideaology as yours. Again, It's a mere temproray allieance as a result of common goals.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Revolution Until Victory+September 07, 2007 11:09 am--> (Revolution Until Victory @ September 07, 2007 11:09 am)
OMG!!! EVERYTHING needs context!!!

[/b]
Are you nuts...never mind we already know the answer to that one.

We all know what being a "martyr" means to an Islamic fundamentalist; it means to die for their cause.

Which is also the primary definition of the word itself.


Originally posted by demo+--> (demo)You ought to answer the question you were asked, if you want others to answer your inane questions.[/b]

You're barking up the wrong tree here. I would be the first in line to condemn all Israeli
fanatical fuckwads for committing what I consider to be crimes against humanity.

Just like I am condemning Islamic fundamentalist fuckwads right now.


More to the point you ought to put these things in context and understand that this might have more to do with Israeli occupation than religious superstition.

Why? Are you confused?


Originally posted by marmot
here is one of the tv episodes, so all islamist apologists can shut the fuck up

Don't you love the way the mouse talks about AK-47s and pretends to fire one? What the hell are these people thinking?


Only colonial/imperialist/Zionist apologists. Vinny and Spartan are great examples.

I have never apologised for Israel's atrocities; you simply make that claim because you have nothing better to go on.

As a matter of fact I have always been quite forthright in my views about the terrorist state of Israel.

Stop being such a knucklehead.


What you and Vinny are doing is por-Western imperialism/Zionism, wether you mean it or not.

In your opinion of course.

But who would trust the opinion of someone that think children getting killed is okay?

Short of your fellow knuckleheads around here, no one.


Originally posted by inti
I do not support Hamas.

Do you support any group that conducts suicide bombings of civilians?


At least you have a job and can earn some money, unlike the thousands of Gazans who have lost their jobs due to the Israeli-US led blockade of the Strip after Hamas were democratically elected to power. .

Does that mean that the billions of other people that have jobs are somehow responsible for any of this crap?

You're really reaching now pal.


But, I guess that those workers mean nothing to you due to the fact that they are Arabs/Muslims

Why do you still insist that I hate Arabs? Please quote me anywhere saying something about Arabs.

Do you really think this pathetic tactic works?


Needless to say, no matter how much you feel you suffer, that suffering pales in comparison to the suffering of Palestinians under Israeli occupation

And their suffering "pales in comparison" to the suffering of some other people in parts of Africa.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Jack shit.


I notice you have a habit of typing trollish responses.


I noticed you have a habit of being obtuse. So what.


It does not make child abuse okay, yet you fail to understand my point completely.


Your "point' has no relevance to this thread.


Palestinian society has been destroyed by Israeli occupation. That is what imperialism has the habit of doing.

I agree.


The bottom line is that your article (as well as the countless others that did the rounds on the world-wide-web) stems from a wholly unreliable source which has been refuted by people who understand Arabic better than you.

Have you not read this thread?

Even your fellow comrades in reactionary thought posted links to sources that confirm the girl said she would like to be a martyr.

The validity of that is not under debate because even your cronies agree it's fact.

Is there any particular reason why you're so confused about this issue?


Again, the source is Little Green Footballs, a highly anti-Muslim/Arab website which I cannot take seriously.


I guess they faked the part where the mouse pretends to shoot a gun right?

Just what I would want my child to see in their TV shows. :blink:


Originally posted by goofball maoist
. Since you seem to have made it your personal mission to destroy what you see as 'islamic fundamentalism

You should consider it to be your job too!

I wont hold it against you though; Maoists have never had a good grip what they should and shouldn't support.


"islamic fundamentalism" from "legitimate mass resistance", you really have to start elaborating on what, in your bible -- I mean manifesto, is the difference.

It doesn't shock me that you would not know the difference between an Islamic fundamentalist and your everyday average Muslim.

I suppose that's the reason why your support such reactionary causes.


Do you believe that the people of Palestine do not have the right to rise up and defend themselves?

I believe that all people have a right to defend themselves.

That does not mean they should defend themselves by blowing up kids; that crosses the fucking line!

I will fully support any action of poeple attemting to liberate themselves if they don't fuck with children or other innocent civilians.



For fuck's sake, get it through your head, nobody here is defending "political islam

Bullshit.

Many, many people here have publicly supported political Islamic groups. Where the fuck has your head been?

I have a good guess! :lol:


according to your "analysis", that automatically means that all attempts to fight Nazism are illegitimate because it shares an agenda with a fundamentalist decree.

The nazi card is just as stale as the race card. I suggest putting it to bed for good.


Or perhaps I should "go back to school" because my "knowledge" simply can't stack up to "yours"

Agreed.


Your time in prison really must've fucked with your head.

I got over it.


Originally posted by revolt
Ever hear of the word retaliation?


Agianst a group of children in a market? :lol:


[email protected]
Would your definition include being killed by Palestinians while on patrol as a soldier in the IDF?

Let's see:

Dying for a cause...

Yup, that qualifies.


All Israeli children know from a young age that they too may be forced in to martyrdom when they turn 18. Why aren’t you concerned about that?

I am.

My disgust for religion is unbiased.


Maybe the reason you find the show so "sick" has more to do with your inability to respect or understand any culture outside of your own.


Are you hopped up on the goofballs or something?

It's sick because it's teaching children how kill and die. That's not a "cultural trait" of any society; it's a child abuse commited by a group of very crazy people.

Please tell me you don't have kids.


But when an occupation affects almost every aspect of life and the majority of the occupied support the cause of resistance, it will inevitably be present in almost every form of media.


Bullshit.

Children are off limits!


Almost every society attempts to indoctrinate its children at an early age.

Show a society that teaches their children about killing and dying and I'll show you a society that nedds to be scrapped and reformed.



You, however, have isolated a single example and attempted to analyze it as if it were a problem found only among these “sick” Muslims.

I didn't attempt anything of the sort. Please quote me as both saying that Muslims are generally "sick" and that the thread topic is is strictly a "muslim problem".

Spin, spin, spin till her daddy took the t-bird away....


At least Vinny attempts to provide sources for his misguided views.

They are not "my views"; they are proven facts.


For example: you said both sides in the Palestine conflict cause as much suffering as the other. How can you reconcile that with the statistics that show that for every one Israeli killed, three Palestinians are also killed (the ratio is even greater when children are specified)?

Hopefully this will aid in your cofusion:

I do not support any movement led by religious nut balls whether they be Islamic, Jewish, Christian or otherwise.

Looks like we have another knucklehead in our midst.


Inti
Let us ignore the veraciousness of the story and accusations that have been presented by the thread-starter.

I'm not "accusing" anybody of anything. I'm just presenting the facts.


I beg to differ.

Vinny (from what I have read even outside of this thread) hates Islam and Muslims.

That is the perception I have of him.

Crock-o-shit.

I have always maintained the same views here for years. I hate all religions equally.

The religion, not the people in general.

You kids ignore that because it throws a wrench into your works.


Until there is justice for Palestine, there will be no peace.

A more accurate statement would be "until there's no religion, class antagonisms and capital there will be no peace".

I suspect those concepts are foreign to you however.


The fact that this girl would even think about becoming a martyr (which does not have the automatic implication that she wants to kill Israelis too) should force people to question why that child is ready to die.

So your answer is to put into power the fanatical religious loonies that are responsible for teaching this crap?

That's smart.

[Revolution Until Victory]

Are you nuts...never mind we already know the answer to that one.

you gotta love this!!

Vinny accusing other of being "nuts'! what a joke!


We all know what being a "martyr" means to an Islamic fundamentalist; it means to die for their cause.

Which is also the primary definition of the word itself.

the offical defention of the word "martyr" in a dictionary is one thing, for a communist is another, for Palestinian is another etc. It all depends on the context.
The world "martyr" in the videa was used by a Palestinian 5 or so years old girl. It defenatly not the "Islamic fundemanalists" defention. It is the Palestinian defention. Getting murdered, shot, or killed by the Zionists. Even if Hamas was the one to use it (the 5 years old girl, needless to say, is not a member of Hamas), it will still be in the context of the Palestinian anti-colonial struggle.


I have never apologised for Israel's atrocities; you simply make that claim because you have nothing better to go on.

As a matter of fact I have always been quite forthright in my views about the terrorist state of Israel.

Stop being such a knucklehead.

As I said, you are apologising and supporting imperialism, wether you know it or not, mean it or not, or admit it or not.


Don't you love the way the mouse talks about AK-47s and pretends to fire one? What the hell are these people thinking?

don't you love it how dipshits can't realize the neccesties of fighting imperialism in a "thirld world" country?

It is disapointing that children have to be involved at all in the conflict. However, imperialism have forced new situations and measures on the colonized masses, thus, they have to take unfavorable methods, such as children getting involved in the struggle, in order to eradict colonialism and imperialism. Nothing wrong with that.


But who would trust the opinion of someone that think children getting killed is okay?

oh no! God forbid, who would trust my opnion, no way! they trust YOUR opnion :lol:

I didn't say children getting killed is "okay". I said it is dissapointing and not acceptable, however, as a result of imperialism, drastic measures must be taken.


Just what I would want my child to see in their TV shows.

in your position, probably not. But if you were in the position of a Palestinian suffering and fighting at the frontline from imperialism, it would probably be a different story.

[spartan]

As I said, you are apologising and supporting imperialism, wether you know it or not, mean it or not, or admit it or not.
just like you support religious imperialism RUV.

[capstop]

QUOTE (capstop)
it can’t be a pleasant feeling when you realise that you have just been wound up and set to work in the interests of Zionism and US war propaganda generally.



Actually I've been "wound up" by the actions of some religious zealots and their apologists.

Yes I know, well paid Zionist liars aren‘t they? It’s interesting that the CNN translation department picked up on the fraud and found it to obvious a piece of black propaganda even for them to run with. Obviously you thought better. Do you actually read Arabic or did you rely on the Zionist religious zealots simply because they weren’t Muslims.


Let see where you stand on this issue:
Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right?
Funny, not one of you has answered yet....

I can’t speak for anyone else but I can understand why people might not want to answer such a ignorant provocation.

Firstly "martyring" or martyrdom in the Islamic tradition has a vastly different and much more complex meaning than the limited and purely pejorative interpretation that you and other reactionaries choose to give it.

“The word shahada is derived from the Arabic verbal root shahada, which means to 'see', to 'witness', to 'testify', to 'become a model and paradigm'. Shahada therefore literally means to 'see', to 'witness', and to 'become a model'. A shahid is the person who sees and witnesses, and he is therefore the witness, as if the martyr witnesses and sees the truth physically and thus stands by it firmly, so much so that not only does he testify it verbally, but he is prepared to struggle and fight and give up his life for the truth, and thus to become a martyr. In this way, and by his struggle and sacrifice for the sake of the truth, he become a model, a paradigm, and an example for others, worthy of being copied, and worthy of being followed.” (The Concept Of Martyrdom In Islam A. Ezzati, Tehran University, Al-Serat, Vol XII (1986)

So to your question: “Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right? My answer is no, because I am not a Muslim. If I was a Muslim I would think it was an entirely normal and honourable thing to do because it doesn’t mean what you claim it means, does it?

[Red Scare]

Originally posted by rev0lt+September 07, 2007 03:25 pm--> (rev0lt @ September 07, 2007 03:25 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 01:22 pm
i have no problem with islam, but when it is islam extremism or fundementalism it is some fucked up shit :angry: , its sad that that girl would give up her life for crazy hamas
True, I don't want to see children die. Unfortunately they(and women) are usually victims of unprovoked, Israeli attacks.

Though I don't think she's willing to die for Hamas, but for her country and an opportunity for an end to the conflict/occupation and self-determination for the people. That's the common misconception. [/b]
if she wants to fight for her nation, she should be with the PLO or Fatah, not hamas

[Revolution Until Victory]

are you serious??

Al Fatah are supposedly "center-leftists", but are as far from it as possible. They are nothing more than corrupt traitors. The PLO is controlled by Al Fatah. What she should join is the PFLP. Marxist-leninst, non-corrupt, and are "radical" when it comes to the Zionist colonizers. They actually have the most prncipled postions and are the ones that have never compromised with Zionist colonialism. There position is actually more "radical" than that of Hamas. In fact, the PFLP is the only Palestinian liberation group that doesn't get financial support form the Arab regimes coz it believes they are reactionary, imperialist, Zionist collaborators, and even has as its goal to destroy them and change those regimes. But even not recieving any financial aid, the PFLP still manges to be the most active liberation group in the Palestinian anti-colonial revolution.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by Revolution Until [email protected] 07, 2007 08:09 pm
Al Fatah are supposedly "center-leftists", but are as far from it as possible. They are nothing more than corrupt traitors. The PLO is controlled by Al Fatah. What she should join is the PFLP. Marxist-leninst, non-corrupt.
On behalf of Saraa, I accept that invitation. :P

[capstop]

Traditional song of the bourgeois ‘reformist’ and extremely
reactionary British Labour Party.


"The Red Flag" by Jim Connell

The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts blood dyed its every fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high. (chorus)
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

With heads uncovered swear we all (Last Verse)
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

LABOUR MINISTERS SING IN PRAIS OF “MARTYRDOM”
SHOCK HORROR!!!

In a weird ritual reminiscent of a primitive war dance, Labour activists met in an English coastal town to link hands in rhythmic ecstasy as they chant a blood oath in praise of their “martyred dead.”
When challenged, a senior activist in the movement, known as a “front bencher” claimed that they had no plans to carry out suicide missions this year.

But we can reveal to our readers that the Labourite activists have plans to take part in the annual death cult ritual where pensioners and school children (many wearing uniforms) are marshalled to place imitation “blood coloured” flowers at the shine of an ‘Unknown Soldier’.

THE تشمس, says good look to our boys who are doing their duty to uphold civilised standards against these hordes of blood crazed vampires!

[Intifada]

Do you support any group that conducts suicide bombings of civilians?

I have no problem with suicide bombings as long as the target is military.


Does that mean that the billions of other people that have jobs are somehow responsible for any of this crap?

I never intimated such a stupid thing.


Why do you still insist that I hate Arabs? Please quote me anywhere saying something about Arabs.


You have a view towards Muslims which is quite reminiscent of the same kind of view held by people of a right-wing leaning.


And their suffering "pales in comparison" to the suffering of some other people in parts of Africa.


Look, my point is this.

It is fucking easy for a person like you to sit there and criticise an organisation for "indoctrinating" a child into thinking in such a manner, without taking into consideration the context of the lives these people are leading.

Your pathetic attempts to try and blame this child's thoughts (on martyrdom) on Islamic extremism is naive at best. The fact remains that the psychology of this child has been affected by the Israeli occupation, which has destroyed the lives of ordinary Palestinians.

Indeed, someone has already pointed out the fact that secular organisations such as the PFLP have used children as suicide bombers.


Even your fellow comrades in reactionary thought posted links to sources that confirm the girl said she would like to be a martyr.

She says she wants to be a doctor, but if that pursuit is not realised, she will try to become a martyr. Moreover, she does not say she wants to kill/annihilate the Jews, she says that "the Jews will shoot us".

Why does the fact that this girl wants to be a martyr surprise you anyway?

This is what imperialism does to the people which it attacks.

[capstop]

Comrades, why are you all so bothered about the reactionary use of the word ‘martyr’ ? It’s an historical joke and play thing in western bourgeois culture.

There is not a single culture or historical period in all human history that has not used and celebrated child worriers. The American War of Independence, could not have been thought about without conscript youth detachments. The American civil war was only ever a calculated slaughter of children on both sides. The ‘Old Testament’ Bible positively recommends it. Stop apologising, agonising and explain the context and attack the foul lying hypocrisy of the Zionist fake lefts who are pretending to be “civilised”.

[black magick hustla]

fuck, i didnt want to post this.

(edit)

ill do a better post later.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:09 pm
Regardless of what creates the grounds for islamic extremism, islamic extremism is still reactionary. Swapping the imperialist boss for the islamic boss doesn't do anything.
With the disappearance or submission of the imperialist entity the need for the Islamist party and its policies(that it cannot even implement) will wither away, that is unless it seizes power like in Iran. Although even then, in an Islamist attempt at a takeover, there would be plenty of resistance to that as the people in general just want an end to the occupation and not a reactionary theocracy.

"Islamic extremism" is the label the anti-Palestinian outlets provide due to their support of Israel, and discredit the major support base Hamas has in order to undermine them. They're basically the most prominent organization that has aimed most of their supplies to social services & the general welfare in the impoverished areas. They're in no way the same as say the Taleban or the Mullahs of Iran. As I said before, they're the 'vanguard' for national liberation. Not like they can decide when the occupation ends; that power lies and has lied in Israels hands for a few decades now and have not accepted it.

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 06:09 pm
fuck, i didnt want to post this.

(edit)

ill do a better post later.
okay ;)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Some religious wacko+--> (Some religious wacko)the offical defention of the word "martyr" in a dictionary is one thing, for a communist is another, for Palestinian is another etc. It all depends on the context.
The world "martyr" in the videa was used by a Palestinian 5 or so years old girl. It defenatly not the "Islamic fundemanalists" defention. It is the Palestinian defention. Getting murdered, shot, or killed by the Zionists. Even if Hamas was the one to use it (the 5 years old girl, needless to say, is not a member of Hamas), it will still be in the context of the Palestinian anti-colonial struggle.[/b]

This unique concept is so far over the top that not even the best Capitalist political analysts would try to spin something so absurd.



As I said, you are apologising and supporting imperialism, wether you know it or not, mean it or not, or admit it or not.

Saying it over and over again won't make it right; it just makes you sound like a silly broken record.


don't you love it how dipshits can't realize the neccesties of fighting imperialism in a "thirld world" country?


Don't you love how some dip shits think that whacking out toddlers is okay?



I didn't say children getting killed is "okay". I said it is dissapointing and not acceptable, however, as a result of imperialism, drastic measures must be taken.

Ralphie loaned me his little orphan Annie secret decoder ring and we found that this statement is not code for "be sure to drink your Ovaltine" but in actuality is code for "I support children getting killed".


in your position, probably not. But if you were in the position of a Palestinian suffering and fighting at the frontline from imperialism, it would probably be a different story.

Doubtful.

Only jerk offs living in the middle ages allow their children to pick up an AK-47 and end up getting murdered.


Originally posted by capstop+--> (capstop)Yes I know, well paid Zionist liars aren‘t they?[/b]

I think it may be time for you to seek treatment for your paranoid delusions. Unless of course you think theat psychology is just a "right wing consipracy" paid for by "zionist liars".

In that case I suggest swallowing a bottle of Valium.


So to your question: “Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right? My answer is no, because I am not a Muslim. If I was a Muslim I would think it was an entirely normal and honourable thing to do because it doesn’t mean what you claim it means, does it?


So you're saying that you believe that all Muslims inherently believe that children should be violently sacrificed in the name of allah?

That's a very bigoted opinion you have there.

Tell you what, forget about the psychologist and go straight to the Valium swallowing.


[email protected]
I have no problem with suicide bombings as long as the target is military

Neither do I.

Do you support Hamas, the PLO, the PLFP and other groups that target civilians with suicide bombings?

I know I don't.


I never intimated such a stupid thing.

The knock it off with the overly melodramatic and pointless "Palestinians suffering more than the westerner that has a job" bollocks.


You have a view towards Muslims which is quite reminiscent of the same kind of view held by people of a right-wing leaning.


That is in your opinion of course.

An opinion you hold simply in a futile attempt to paint me as a "racist" regardless of reality.


It is fucking easy for a person like you to sit there and criticise an organisation for "indoctrinating" a child into thinking in such a manner, without taking into consideration the context of the lives these people are leading.

You're right.

It's very easy to see through fundamentalist bullshit that endangers the lives of children and condemn it when they continue to blow up children!

And I will continue to "easily criticise them" until the fuckers stop!


Your pathetic attempts to try and blame this child's thoughts (on martyrdom) on Islamic extremism is naive at best.

Actually son, I blame every adult in her life that fucked her up and should have known better!

Extremest or not!


Indeed, someone has already pointed out the fact that secular organisations such as the PFLP have used children as suicide bombers.

I've mentioned their atrocities many times.


She says she wants to be a doctor, but if that pursuit is not realised, she will try to become a martyr. Moreover, she does not say she wants to kill/annihilate the Jews, she says that "the Jews will shoot us".


So I'm right, you believe that what she said about being a martyr is true and you support it.

Sicko.


Why does the fact that this girl wants to be a martyr surprise you anyway?

This is hardly a surprise considering that people regularly blow themselves and a bunch of school kids to bits in these parts.

It's still pretty fucking sick though.


capstop
There is not a single culture or historical period in all human history that has not used and celebrated child worriers.

And you don't think it's time we stopped this archaic practice? Back to the middle ages for you!

Dolt.

[capstop]

QUOTE (capstop)
Yes I know, well paid Zionist liars aren‘t they?




I think it may be time for you to seek treatment for your paranoid delusions. Unless of course you think theat psychology is just a "right wing consipracy" paid for by "zionist liars".

In that case I suggest swallowing a bottle of Valium.

It is a simple verifiable fact that the Zionist source of this report distorted the content of the original TV program by misinterpreting what was said, and the people responsible are paid to do this work. So paid, Zionist liars! It is also notable but not surprising that you failed to respond to evidence which supports my statement. That is: That CNN not known for a pro-Palestinian stance, REFUSED TO USE THE FRUDULENT TRANSLATION BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT ‘STAND IT UP’!
But you went with it and you are not even an Arabic speaker. Therefore I can only conclude that your posts are based entirely on you personal subjective, bigoted and ultimately reactionary attitude to the hard pressed and courageous Palestinian people and their leadership. You further puerile comments about me amply confirm my view.

QUOTE capstop
So to your question: “Do you think it's okay to teach toddlers that "martyring" yourself is right? My answer is no, because I am not a Muslim. If I was a Muslim I would think it was an entirely normal and honourable thing to do because it doesn’t mean what you claim it means, does it?




So you're saying that you believe that all Muslims inherently believe that children should be violently sacrificed in the name of allah?

That's a very bigoted opinion you have there.

Tell you what, forget about the psychologist and go straight to the Valium swallowing.

Not content with publishing Zionist distortions you now generate your own. You know full well that I said that the term "martyring" or martyred dose not only have the connotation that you and other reactionaries choose to place on it. I am beginning to understand that you are not the brightest button in the box, but that is no excuse for dissembling in this way.


QUOTE (capstop)
There is not a single culture or historical period in all human history that has not used and celebrated child worriers.




And you don't think it's time we stopped this archaic practice? Back to the middle ages for you!

Dolt.

What a pathetic response. How old do you claim to be?

[capstop]

Duplicate post again. Can someone please tell me how I can prevent this from happening?

[Revolution Until Victory]

This unique concept is so far over the top that not even the best Capitalist political analysts would try to spin something so absurd.

what the hell are you talking about?

Everything should be viewed in its context. This fact wouldn't change no matter how much you deny it.



Saying it over and over again won't make it right; it just makes you sound like a silly broken record.

That's a good advice you should pay attention to.


Ralphie loaned me his little orphan Annie secret decoder ring and we found that this statement is not code for "be sure to drink your Ovaltine" but in actuality is code for "I support children getting killed".

Sure, you can have it your way if it makes you feel better.


Only jerk offs living in the middle ages allow their children to pick up an AK-47 and end up getting murdered.

Pure ignorance, bigotry, and imperialist apologism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10, 2007 11:33 am
Duplicate post again. Can someone please tell me how I can prevent this from happening?
you talk about others not being the "brightest button in the box" and you can't figure that out.

No doubt you're a firm believer that the "great Zionist Right wing conspiracy" has sabotaged your computer.... :lol:

[Vinny Rafarino]

what the hell are you talking about?

Everything should be viewed in its context. This fact wouldn't change no matter how much you deny it.


Perhaps if you stop wasting your brain cells on trying to spin reality into another one of your unique "points of view" you would get it.

I don't have high hopes however.


Pure ignorance, bigotry, and imperialist apologism.

You spin me right round baby right round, like a record baby, right round, round, round.

[capstop]

QUOTE (capstop @ September 10, 2007 11:33 am)
Duplicate post again. Can someone please tell me how I can prevent this from happening?



you talk about others not being the "brightest button in the box" and you can't figure that out.

Go on then, tell me how to stop it if you can.

No doubt you're a firm believer that the "great Zionist Right wing conspiracy" has sabotaged your computer....
No, but I am now a firm believer that you are unable to support your case and that your recourse to infantile remakes is an attempt to divert attention from irrational thinking.

If I could help you with that problem I would.

[Vinny Rafarino]

No, but I am now a firm believer that you are unable to support your case and that your recourse to infantile remakes is an attempt to divert attention from irrational thinking.

You're confused again.

"My case", as you have referenced it, has already been proven fact and accepted by you little friends as fact.

You're the only one that thinks the definitions of words in the English language only retain as much value as they can when used for your own dubious purposes.

The rest of the time you think the definitions are set forth by some mystical conspiracy created by some invisible group of world dominating right wing Zionists. :lol:

I assume you're always the last to get picked on the field too right?

[capstop]

No, but I am now a firm believer that you are unable to support your case and that your recourse to infantile remakes is an attempt to divert attention from irrational thinking.

And a waste of time.

[Vinny Rafarino]

No, but I am now a firm believer that you are unable to support your case and that your recourse to infantile remakes is an attempt to divert attention from irrational thinking.

I'm sure you believe in some other mystical crap too.

Luckily we don't have to follow your lead if we don't want to.

[capstop]

"May God close the eyes of anyone who attempts to shut down the al-Salah charitable society that provides us our living." So said Halima Abu 'Isa, a 45-year-old widow and mother of two in reaction to the decision of the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah to close down 103 Palestinian charities.

The monthly allowance of 900 shekels (US $230) that Abu 'Isa receives from al-Salah, an Islamic charity with links to Hamas, is the only thing that stands between her and destitution. She lives in a rented house in the central Gaza Strip town of Deir al-Balah and is the sole caretaker of two children since her husband died eleven years ago in a road accident.

"Why do they want to close down these charities that have provided me and so many others with dignity and spared us from begging," Abu 'Isa asks. "How will I care for my children and repay my debts if, heaven forbid, they cut off my allowance?" She strongly blames those who have taken this decision.

The Palestinian government in Ramallah, appointed by Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas in June, without the approval of the Palestinian Legislative Council, issued a decree last month ordering the closure of 103 Palestinian charities alleging financial improprieties. In a 29 August statement, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights condemned the decision as illegal and called "upon the government in Ramallah to rescind this decision that will cut off humanitarian and emergency aid to thousands of Palestinian families."

The elected government headed by Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, which still operates in the Gaza Strip, also rejected the decision, pointing out that it was politically motivated and designed to weaken Hamas. Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said that "the allegation that these societies are involved in fraud and financial corruption is baseless," adding that "many of them belong to the interior ministry and there is a continuous auditing of their budgets."

Abu Zuhri warned that the Ramallah government would attempt to make "use of its international contacts," to "put pressure on the banks in a bid to weaken the performance of such organizations." Abbas and his appointed prime minister Salam Fayyad have been given backing by Israel, the United States and the European Union, while Hamas has been isolated.

In Gaza, there was widespread dismay. Mohammed Shahin, a 15-year-old orphan from the Deir al-Balah town, who is studying at the al-Salah orphans' preparatory school, voiced his outrage fearing his school could be shut down.

"This school has enabled me to learn many useful things and taught me how to be well-behaved," Mohammad says. "I will hate those who would close it down as long as I live."

According to Um Umar, who heads the orphans department at the charity, the al-Salah society provides aid to 12,000 Palestinian orphans and disburses monthly allowances to 700 families across the Gaza Strip.

The latest decision by the Ramallah government follows a series of other measures taken by Abbas, who is also leader of the Fatah movement which lost the January 2006 legislative election to Hamas, to impose its will.

Abbas's Ramallah government issued decrees purporting to cancel all decisions taken by Haniyeh's government and has refused to pay the salaries of thousands of Palestinian civil servants in the Gaza Strip with the Palestinian tax funds released to it by Israel. Abbas and his advisors have accused Hamas of staging a "military coup."

These measures followed Hamas' move to take complete control of Palestinian Authority institutions in the Gaza Strip in early June, ejecting forces loyal to Abbas and Fatah. Hamas justified the move by pointing out that certain Fatah militias, particularly those headed by Abbas advisor Muhammad Dahlan, had been receiving foreign funding and weapons and attempting to undermine and overthrow the elected government since it took office.

After the Hamas takeover, Fatah pulled out of the "national unity government" which had been in office since March under a Saudi-brokered deal and has worked to tighten the siege against Gaza.

A senior Fatah leader in the West Bank, Mohammed al-Hourani sought to justify the shut down of the charities, stating that "this decision came concurrent with a development plan that is intended at improving living conditions of middle and lower classes of Palestinian society and to achieve this end, the authority should adopt centralization in administering service-based organizations."

Although the United States has approved tens of millions of dollars to support the Ramallah government, it is not clear how it would implement such plans on the ground, if they even exist, since it does not have any power in the Gaza Strip. Meanwhile, Hamas leaders vow that they will continue to resist a crippling boycott imposed on them since they won the legislative elections.

Rami Almeghari is currently contributor to several media outlets including the Palestine Chronicle, aljazeerah.info, IMEMC, The Electronic Intifada and Free Speech Radio News. Rami is also a former senior English translator at and editor in chief of the international press center of the Gaza-based Palestinian Information Service. He can be contacted at rami_almeghari at hotmail.com.

[bolshevik butcher]

This thread is laughable, it really shows how ridiculous much of this sites membership and the ultra left is. Rather than seeing how situations develop through material conditions and developing them objectively many of the posters here seem to have retreated into arguing based on moralism. It's just a joke to possibly argue that Islamism is just as bad as Isreali imperialism, sure both are highly rectionary, and both will no doubt have to be combatted. However what these members seem to fail to undersatnd is that imperialism is the root cause of violence and fundementalism. Oppressed people dont for nothing look to Hamas to show them an alternative as seems to be dreamed here. They are people like us, rational beings in a desperate sitaution for whom suicide bombing seems a valid form of resistance.

I would not justify terrorism against civillians, however I also understand what produces it. On attacks by guerilla forces on Isreali forces and the occupation I would hope the Palestinians would win. However at the same time I feel that it doesn't represent a genuine alternative and that only a class based alternative can. This doesn't mean I condem the oppressed Palestinians rather than Isreali/American imperialism who are clearly responsible for the sitaution.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 10, 2007 10:15 pm
This thread is laughable, it really shows how ridiculous much of this sites membership and the ultra left is. Rather than seeing how situations develop through material conditions and developing them objectively many of the posters here seem to have retreated into arguing based on moralism. It's just a joke to possibly argue that Islamism is just as bad as Isreali imperialism, sure both are highly rectionary, and both will no doubt have to be combatted. However what these members seem to fail to undersatnd is that imperialism is the root cause of violence and fundementalism. Oppressed people dont for nothing look to Hamas to show them an alternative as seems to be dreamed here. They are people like us, rational beings in a desperate sitaution for whom suicide bombing seems a valid form of resistance.

I would not justify terrorism against civillians, however I also undersatnd waht produces it. On attacks by guerilla forces on Isreali forces and the occupation I would hope the Palestinians would win. However at the same time I feel that it doesn't represent a genuine alternative and that only a class based alternative cane. This doesn't mean I condem the oppressed Palestinians rather than Isreali/American imperialism who are clearly responsible for the sitaution.
Took the words out of my mouth.

I can't be arsed responding to Vinny's response.

It's futile and a waste of my time.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Bolshevic
This thread is laughable, it really shows how ridiculous much of this sites membership and the ultra left is.

Why do you, crapstop and that other kid keep trying to derail this thread into another "yippee, I love Palestinian fundamentalists and reactionaries because it's chic and I'm too young to know better" thread like the rest?

Gee, your "cleverness" almost made me forget: you kids do it because you admit to believing that children being taught to kill, get killed or commit suicide is cool and you're feeling guilty about it.

[bolshevik butcher]

I never said that. I actually said i don't think such attacks provide a solution to the crisis in the middle east and I strongly disagree with terrorist attacks on civillians. Why don't you read my posts.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I read it (unfortunately) and my post stands.

[bolshevik butcher]

I don't love fundementalists I think taht they're reactionaires that have to be opposed as I have already said. However I think it's just immature and moralistic to not analyse the situation fully and understand the cause of the growth of these movements.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by bolshie
However I think it's just immature and moralistic to not analyse the situation fully and understand the cause of the growth of these movements

I don't care about what caused these movements to form. I care about how to stop them from further harming children.

You should too!

[Guerrilla22]

Yeah its propaganda, but its not as though they're the only ones doing it.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12, 2007 12:39 pm
Yeah its propaganda, but its not as though they're the only ones doing it.

So, because they are "not the only ones doing it" that somehow makes it acceptable?

Shit jack, Yanquis aren't the only ones conducting Imperialistic missions so does that give them a free pass?

[metalero]

Vinny, please quit moralizing about the tragedy of the palestinian conflict, and try to do a materialist analysis on the social conditions that gave way to the attitudes you attack so much, instead of jumping on the bandwagon of right-wing racist propaganda against muslims.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Vinny Rafarino+September 12, 2007 06:55 pm--> (Vinny Rafarino @ September 12, 2007 06:55 pm)
bolshie
However I think it's just immature and moralistic to not analyse the situation fully and understand the cause of the growth of these movements


I don't care about what caused these movements to form.

[/b]
I thought you were a Marxist and a materialist..

Anyway beyond that how can you possibly try and stop something without understanding what causes it?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by metal
Vinny, please quit moralizing about the tragedy of the palestinian conflict, and try to do a materialist analysis on the social conditions that gave way to the attitudes you attack so much, instead of jumping on the bandwagon of right-wing racist propaganda against muslims.


No.

When it comes to children and other innocent civilians I will continue to attack this middle aged crapola until it is stopped.

Unlike yourself, I refuse to apologise for the actions of reactionaries.


I thought you were a Marxist and a materialist..


I am indeed a materialist however I am not a Marxist; not that it matters anyway.


Anyway beyond that how can you possibly try and stop something without understanding what causes it?

I was being rhetorical before bro.

We already know what "causes it": fundamentalist wackos with little to no grip on reality.

Now lets look for a way to stop them from doing it anymore.

[Revolution Until Victory]

No.

When it comes to children and other innocent civilians I will continue to attack this middle aged crapola until it is stopped.

Unlike yourself, I refuse to apologise for the actions of reactionaries.

stop fucking changing the subject. Everything should be analyzed through its context and should be viewed as how it develops and its causes.


We already know what "causes it": fundamentalist wackos with little to no grip on reality.

lol, no, you obviously don't know what cause it. "fundamenatlist wackos" (in case you are reffering to Islamists) are not what cause it. As I said before, all Palestinian factions have done so before, with the communists being the ones to use the youngest children, not merely the Islamists. This proves that it is't the Islamists that are causing this, rahter, clear social condition and extreme situations caused by imperialism. And that's why you will see children fighting imperialism and opression wherever it exists, not where ever there is "Islamists".

[Vinny Rafarino]

stop fucking changing the subject. Everything should be analyzed through its context and should be viewed as how it develops and its causes.

I'm the only one here that actually keeps to the subject itself. The rest of you lot have a tendency to wander about aimlessly.

Since you have still failed to comprehend what I hae written before I will tell you one last time:

I don't care about your opinion on "contexts". When we're talking about about the welfare of innocent civilians and children there is only one answer:

How the hell do we stop these loonies from fucking up or killing children and other civilians any further.

It really is that simple son.


lol, no, you obviously don't know what cause it.

How's the weather on Pluto these days jack?

There are plenty of other movements throughout history against imperialist aggression that didn't use these type of senseless tactics

No one forced these cuckoos to pull this shit; they do it on their own and are solely responsible for their own actions.

That's how life in the real world works son.

Someday you may get a taste of it.


As I said before, all Palestinian factions have done so before, with the communists being the ones to use the youngest children, not merely the Islamists. This proves that it is't the Islamists that are causing this, rahter, clear social condition and extreme situations caused by imperialism. And that's why you will see children fighting imperialism and opression wherever it exists, not where ever there is "Islamists".

I'm an equal opportunity condemner when it comes to children and innocent civilians.

I don't give a fuck what the group responsible for these actions decides to call themselves or where they are located on the map!

Get it yet?

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Vinny [email protected] 13, 2007 06:05 pm
How the hell do we stop these loonies from fucking up or killing children and other civilians any further.
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Dick [email protected] 14, 2007 02:59 pm

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.
I think that's a very poor idea.

[Ismail]

Vinny, if you aren't a Marxist, what are you? (I'd assume anarchist?)

[capstop]

He is a sad reactionary twat, but we love him anyway.