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View Full Version : The Unified Terminology Proposal



Kwisatz Haderach
6th September 2007, 05:51
Ironically, revleftists have disagreements about the precise definition and features of socialism, but one of the things that we all agree on is that there were a number of states in the 20th century which claimed to be socialist but were not, in fact, socialist.

In simplified terms, one could observe the following:

Maoists argue that revisionist states were not socialist.
Trotskyists argue that all "socialist states" after the 1920s were not socialist.
Left- and Council communists argue that the Leninist model of development is inherently detrimental to, or incompatible with, socialism.
And, of course, anarchists believe that the whole notion of a "socialist state" is nonsense.

So, yes, we can all agree that there were some "fake" socialist states at some point or other. Now, the part I find problematic is that we have so many different names for them. "Stalinism," "degenerated workers' states," "deformed workers' states," "coordinatorism," "bureaucratic collectivism," "revisionism," "state capitalism," and so on and so forth. Of course, these different names represent different theories about what went wrong with the states in question, but still, we really should have a more generic term that means "a kind of society where the means of production are owned by the state but which cannot be called socialist for one reason or other."

I propose that we all come together and try to agree on such a term - preferably an "-ism" - for the sake of making it easier to explain things to new comrades. I hate it when someone new to Marxism asks me about the nature of the Soviet Union and I have to list a dozen different names for what the Soviet system might have been.

Intelligitimate
6th September 2007, 14:39
How about we just call the people who use terminology like that under one term: reactionary pseudo-Leftists.

Kwisatz Haderach
6th September 2007, 18:10
Meh. One's leftism cannot be accurately judged by one's opinion of historical events. After all, it is in principle possible to be a perfectly good Marxist while knowing next to nothing about the history of most "socialist states." What defines a revolutionary leftist is not what she thinks of the past, but what she thinks of the future.

But in any case, would you say that every single self-described socialist state in history was, in fact, socialist? Including post-Deng China?

Clearly that is not the case. My original point stands.

spartan
6th September 2007, 18:23
how about FAKEism, ATTEMPTism, FAILED/FALIUREism, FAILEDATTEMPTism, WRONGism, UNSOCIALism, UNCOMMUNism, UNREALism these are just a few examples but most of them are probably crap :o :lol:

Random Precision
6th September 2007, 23:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 05:23 pm
how about FAKEism, ATTEMPTism, FAILED/FALIUREism, FAILEDATTEMPTism, WRONGism, UNSOCIALism, UNCOMMUNism, UNREALism these are just a few examples but most of them are probably crap :o :lol:
Stop trolling.

As to the original question...

I think it's unrealistic to think that we're going to be able to agree on one term for what the Soviet Union was. In fact, I believe a few splits between various revolutionary groups have occurred because of just that issue.

As an "unorthodox Trotskyist" myself (God, I hate that term), I think we have to throw away Trotsky's "deformed worker's state" hypothesis, because that would open the door for the nearly identical state structures of Eastern Europe after the war to be "worker's states" as well, which would go against everything Marx said about the development of socialism. Yet I'm not fully convinced by any of the state capitalist theories either, although I belong to an organization that upholds Cliff's analysis.

"Degenerated" is a good adjective for the USSR, China, or whatever, depending on your particular stance on the left, but it doesn't work for Eastern Europe, which had nothing to degenerate from.

Your proposition is interesting, I'll keep thinking about it.

Floyce White
7th September 2007, 00:32
Socialism, anarchism, and radical liberalism are the main forms of leftist bourgeois radicalism. Religious fundamentalism, fascism, monarchism, and radical conservatism are the most-often-used forms of rightist bourgeois radicalism. There are other forms as well.

All forms of bourgeois revolutionariness are pro-capitalist. The regimes they set up are all forms of capitalism. Do not confuse form with substance. Any system that has property of any kind--private, public, or personal--is a form of class society. Any system that has commodification of human interrelations (wage labor, rent, M--C--M' or C--M--C', and so on) is capitalism.

There is one and only one form of working-class revolutionariness: the struggle of the poor against the rich. This struggle is called "communism." It is not the same as "socialism."

I totally disagree with the nonsense about how "we all agree." The only way that poor people are going to sort out ideas and unite in action is to honestly say what they agree with and disagree with.

One poor person's gut feelings is worth more than a whole message board full of the agreements of the sons of landlords and merchants.