Liberty in North Korea [Archive]

chimx

5th September 2007, 05:44

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 05, 2007 04:05 am

Well I mean, you have to face it, North Korea is pretty fucked up.

How do you know? Have you been there? Do you have any reliable sources to base your analysis on? These are serious questions.
Following the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and mismanagement of the economy (e.g.: excessive reliance on grain trade from the soviet bloc), North Korea saw a significant famine that resulted in the deaths of upwards of 2 million people in a 3 year period. That is about 10% of the North Korean population. source (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/19/nkorea.famine/), source (http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/prk-summary-eng).

Because starvation was so prevalent in this mismanaged planned economy, the DPRK was forced into taking handouts from the United States and South Korea just to feed itself.

The DPRK's government model is a farce. Under the constitution, the Supreme People's Assembly is the highest highest organ of state power, but legislation is fed to it directly from party leadership. "The assembly is not known to have ever criticized, modified, or rejected a bill or a measure placed before it, or to have proposed an alternative bill or measure." source (http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/59.htm)

Media censorship is strictly enforced. The government is extremely hierarchical. The economic planning the state does undertake has left the economy in shambles and has resulted in a significant portion of the population to starve to death, or die of disease. This has led countless Korean refugees to flee to China where they are met with exploitation, prostitution, etc.

Nothing Human Is Alien

5th September 2007, 12:39

So, we're expected to believe your assertions based on unbiased sources like CNN (first source), Amnesty International (second source) and the U.S. Government (third source)?

The funny thing is that even these sources admit they don't really have a grasp on what goes on in the DPRK, which is why they always refer to it as 'isolated.'

The CNN link admits right in the headline, "Famine may have killed 2 million in North Korea," it doesn't really know what's going on. And the first sentence, in which it reveals its source, pretty much discredits the whole thing: "Two million North Koreans -- nearly 10 percent of the population -- may have died during three years of famine in North Korea, U.S. congressional aides said Wednesday." Sorry, figures that come from "U.S. government sources, refugees and North Korean exiles" aren't going to cut it with folks who think for themselves.

The AI link just keeps repeating, 'there were reports' over and over.. in other words, it has little to no real evidence.

The last link must be a joke. A U.S. government source says the DPRK government is run entirely by one man, and we're supposed to take their word for it. I don't think so.

The baseless assertion made at the end of your post aren't sourced at all, so you know how far they go.

Look, the DPRK certainly isn't perfect, but it's really difficult for people that don't live there to get a proper grasp on what goes in it, especially with the imperialist smear campaign that goes on. If you're really interested in learning about it, there are some sources that are much better than the garbage chimx (a guy who refers to the U.S. government as "we" and blames a country for being forced into trading almost solely with the socialist countries by imperialist encirclement, and then loosing even those trading partners due to capitalist counterrevolution) provided, but I still wouldn't expect to gain a great understanding.

Honggweilo

5th September 2007, 20:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 03:19 am
Name me some countries that are more fucked up than the DPRK.

Zimbabwe doesn't count.
lol 90% of them

Comrade Rage

5th September 2007, 20:21

I tend not to believe most things I hear about North Korea. It has it's problems, but workers there are no less exploited than in the South.

chimx

5th September 2007, 20:31

The old, "if I can't counter your criticisms, I'll simply try to discredit your sources."

Starvation in North Korea:

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/terrorism/assets/starving_children.jpg

http://www.willisms.com/archives/children.gif

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050515/images/nkoreakid.jpg

http://www.bcps.org/offices/lis/models/9famstudworldhunger/images/WH_grnkorea.jpg

http://www.vikingprincess.net/pictures/vlcsnap-509743.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/lee_angie7/NKoreanStarvingWoman.jpg

http://b4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00957/48/73/957433784_l.jpg

http://b7.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01403/73/40/1403760437_l.jpg

--

If you want eye witness information, I suggest you read The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465011047/ref=ord_cart_shr/002-9509559-6756022?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance). Soon Ok Lee (http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Tailless-Animals-Prison-Memoirs/dp/0882643355/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-9509559-6756022), a committed Party member, also has a book about her time in a Korean prison camp, but I don't know much about it.

--

National Geographic did a documentary on North Korea in which they snuck cameras into the country with a humanitarian medical mission (due to poverty and a lack of medical facilities, North Korea has one of the highest rates of blindness). LINK (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3179791344259506905)

You should note how often they refer to Kim Jung-il as a God. When I was in Seoul last month I talked with some folk who had done work with North Korean refugees in China. One of them had tried to talk to the refugees about Kim, and they said to him, "Do not mention his name! He is a God and you have no right to even speak his name!" Or something to that effect. There is an extreme indoctrination from an early age for total submission to the Dear Leader and state power.

--

The country studies link that you dismiss is published by the United States Library of Congress, is extremely reputable, and often sourced in history. You can't even find factual information that warrants its dismissal, but simply say it is inaccurate because you don't like it!? Asinine.

chimx

5th September 2007, 20:36

I tend not to believe most things I hear about North Korea. It has it's problems, but workers there are no less exploited than in the South.

South Koreans aren't starving to death, nor does the South Korean government rely on food aid to try and feed its population. The economy of the ROK is significantly stronger than the DPRK, resulting in South Korean workers having a much greater purchasing power than their starving impoverished families to the north.

Honggweilo

5th September 2007, 20:41

lol picture 4 has been proven to be a Japanese media hoax filmed in a Chinese SEZ near the NK border. To lazy to give you a source, find it yourself if you care.

Red Scare

5th September 2007, 21:24

ok, if north korea is not communist (which it is not) why is everyone defending it? wtf?

chimx

5th September 2007, 21:38

wtf?

It is rather odd, I agree.

Nothing Human Is Alien

5th September 2007, 22:20

The old, "if I can't counter your criticisms, I'll simply try to discredit your sources."

You bet, especially when I originally asked one trashing the DPRK "How do you know? Have you been there? Do you have any reliable sources to base your analysis on?"

Your sources discredited themselves btw. I'll note that you didn't even bother defending them (except the US Country Study, which I knew you would try to paint as some 'neutral' work from the Library of Congress, without mentioning that it was "sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army" of course).

Starvation in North Korea:

These pictures could be from anywhere. At least one has long been proven fake. I guess that doesn't matter though. If chimx says these pictures are real they must be...

But even then, what do they prove? That there's hunger in the DPRK? Maybe there is. There's hunger is most places. I can think of only one where no one is starving. Is there mass hunger? Maybe, hard to tell. If there is, is it caused by famine? Even then, is it caused by a real natural famine, or a man-made one like this (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?60) (and why don't you even mention those kind, in capitalist countries, which happen all the time)? How do you know? Sources from the U.S. government or Japanese bourgeois media? Next I guess you'll use sources like Jesse Helms and The Miami Herald to tell us about Cuba...

If you want eye witness information, I suggest you read The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag.

That definitely sounds unbiased... especially when the author was a "upper middle class child living in Japan."

I could find dozens of books claiming Fidel was this or that kind of monster.. the only difference is there's enough info to refute them. In the DPRK, as I said, it's hard to know exactly what's going on.. but that doesn't mean we should take a book like this as hard truth. Unfortunately, the DPRK is one of those places you can say anything about and get away with.

There's the old communist joke about how the bourgeoisie spreads propaganda about Stalin, Mao or whoever eating babies.. once I actually heard someone in New York claim that Kim Jong Il eats infants. She was being serious.

Soon Ok Lee, a committed Party member, also has a book about her time in a Korean prison camp,

Heh, did you find that in the "people that bought this book have also purchased" section of the Amazon page for the previous book? Have you ever actually read the book?

This review sounds promising: "This book is a wake-up call to those of us in free nations."

but I don't know much about it.

Never stopped you before.

...

But yeah, there may be 'prison camps.' But there are 'prison camps' in a lot of countries. In the U.S. for example. But instead of opposing his own bourgeoisie's actions (which we can confirm easily) in the U.S., chimx would rather join in the imperialists in bashing the DPRK. It's much easier, and more fitting to his character.

National Geographic did a documentary on North Korea in which they snuck cameras into the country with a humanitarian medical mission (due to poverty and a lack of medical facilities, North Korea has one of the highest rates of blindness).

Yes, because National Geographic is very unbiased.. here, for example (http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature3/multimedia.html). :lol:

Maybe the footage is legit. Then again, maybe it's not. I wouldn't put it passed them. But either way, it shows some people starving, some people with cataracts, an interview with a doctor and a few other things right? Do you think it would be hard for me to make a video with poor and starving people, people with cataracts and an interview with a doctor who has treated a lot of poor folks here in New York? I don't think so (though finding the doctor might be the hardest part, poor people he usually don't get to see a doctor, and definitely don't get their cataracts removed).

It doesn't show a serious, overall picture of the DPRK, of the workings of the economy, of the government, of how things really are.

Of course, there is a cult of personality to be sure (one can sense that from the very news released by the KNA), and it's definitely not perfect. But is it what the imperialists say it is? I doubt it.

You should note how often they refer to Kim Jung-il as a God. When I was in Seoul last month I talked with some folk who had done work with North Korean refugees in China. One of them had tried to talk to the refugees about Kim, and they said to him, "Do not mention his name! He is a God and you have no right to even speak his name!" Or something to that effect. There is an extreme indoctrination from an early age for total submission to the Dear Leader and state power.

When I was in Seoul someone told me that someone he was with tried to talk to someone else and......

:lol:

ok, if north korea is not communist (which it is not) why is everyone defending it? wtf?

Did you read my post at all?

"Look, the DPRK certainly isn't perfect, but it's really difficult for people that don't live there to get a proper grasp on what goes in it, especially with the imperialist smear campaign that goes on. If you're really interested in learning about it, there are some sources that are much better than the garbage chimx (a guy who refers to the U.S. government as "we" and blames a country for being forced into trading almost solely with the socialist countries by imperialist encirclement, and then loosing even those trading partners due to capitalist counterrevolution) provided, but I still wouldn't expect to gain a great understanding."

Some of the others may uphold it as socialist.

* * *

Here are some alternate sources for those interested:

National Lawyer's Guild report on the DPRK from 2003 (http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html) - mentions the sanctions on the country, and their effects, and work by soldiers to help grow food, among other things.

... this thread (http://www.revleft.com/lofiversion/index.php/t63689.html) has some decent posts by Dick Dastardly, who points out some of the reasons behind food problems, though I would probably have more criticisms of the DPRK than him.

chimx

5th September 2007, 22:43

Maybe the footage is legit. Then again, maybe it's not. I wouldn't put it passed them.

I'm on my way to work and don't have time to respond fully until later. But I would like to say that you are treating North Korea like a conspiracy theory that dwarfs that of Oswald's assassination of Kennedy. There is piles of evidence, from defectors, to aid worker testimonial, to hidden footage that shows that life in North Korea is appalling, that the leadership lives in luxury, and spends massive amounts of money on supporting a military instead of feeding its own people.

This is a splendid example of why I am more prone to believe "bourgeois sources" (what ever that is even supposed to mean) over communist sources -- because the latter are far more ideologically and emotionally invested in proving their convictions over providing material evidence, even to conspiratorial degrees!

Nothing Human Is Alien

5th September 2007, 23:35

you are treating North Korea like a conspiracy theory that dwarfs that of Oswald's assassination of Kennedy.

Nope, the exact opposite. I want to point out that it's impossible to have an accurate picture of a country by relying purely on information provided by the U.S. government and a right grouping with a history of anti-communism and pictures from bourgeois Japanese media. I've made my position, which is the position of a materialist whose serious about knowing and understanding things, pretty clear here.

There is piles of evidence...

Please, show us.

and spends massive amounts of money on supporting a military instead of feeding its own people.

How much money does the U.S. government spend on its military? How much does it spend on "feeding its own people"?

Yeah, the DPRK has a large military budget, but that's because they have to be constantly ready to defend themselves against tens of thousands of troops stationed just over their border who they are still at war with, and the most powerful military in world history. Of course, if the DPRK was a genuinely socialist country they would be able to rely on a mass-base strategy to defend themselves (as this article (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?220) points out, giving the example of Cuba), but that doesn't change the point.

This is a splendid example of why I am more prone to believe "bourgeois sources" (what ever that is even supposed to mean) over communist sources

As if we needed that example. Anyone that's paid attention to your posts knows you're more likely to side with the capitalist class than the workers of the world - from your reference to the U.S. rulers as "us" and "we," to your criticisms (from the right) of unions because they inhibit individual success, to your constant practice of believing pretty much anything and everything the U.S. capitalists and their mouthpieces say without question.

BTW, bourgeois sources are, believe it or not, sources owned or controlled by the bourgeoisie (as in the mainstream media, government and corporate-funded organizations). You can often gather grains of truth from various bourgeois sources, but you've got to know how to sort out the bullshit.. you really need to balance them out with working-class sources, where available, and concrete evidence. Things like the report from the NLG can be pretty useful.

Of course chimx basically rejects class divisions in society (to the point of claiming that managers and slave overseers are/were proletarians) and accepts the great myth of a united American people, so he has no grasp of the fact that mainstream media outlets are controlled by the capitalist class. To him, members of the U.S. government have no reason to be dishonest about anything.. but evil communists, of course, do.

because the latter are far more ideologically and emotionally invested in proving their convictions over providing material evidence, even to conspiratorial degrees!

How can you know one is more prone to do something than another, when you admit you don't even know what the other is?

That's like saying, I don't know what apples are, but I know oranges taste worse!

But yeah, the capitalists have no interest in, and no history of, lying about a country they are in conflict with... :lol: It's those damn commies that do the lying!

R_P_A_S

5th September 2007, 23:41

uhmm. so, what do you guys think of LINK and what they are doing?

RNK

6th September 2007, 07:12

It's fairly obvious that LINK is a right-wing organization that obviously confuses what's going on in North Korea with real socialism. That said, I think it is more important -- especially for the people and workers in North Korea -- that we not depend on ignorance and unwillingness and should do what's right, and that is to defend and uphold the people who are suffering in North Korea.

R_P_A_S

6th September 2007, 07:25

So some of you guys would say that what LINK is doing is worthless? or that is just bad because they are "right-wing"?

i get the arguments from both CompañeroDeLibertad and from Chmx and others. both sides make valid arguments. despite of totally high-jacking my thread. :blush:

i understand the DPRK is not perfect. and it's an easy target for both the imperialist and even many leftist here. we don't know much about it. we know very little. but let me ask you this Compañero. if you were to meet a defector and he told you the horrors he lived through or he was to tell you that he wasn't happy with the so call "socialist" advantages and paradise the government there likes to portrait would you hear him out and maybe sympathize with him? or would you rant on him and call him a counter revolutionary? or something along those lines?

chimx

6th September 2007, 08:02

I've made my position, which is the position of a materialist

I'm sure you think so.

The facts are that despite the fact that North Korea has inherited hermetic values of the former Korean kingdom, a fairly extensive amount of information is available on it thanks to reports from refugees, detractors, aid workers, journalists, et al.

Please, show us.

The North Korean economy is extremely poor, and had hit a low point in 1998. At that time its annual per capita GNI was only 573USD. It has since increased to 914USD. (see Bank of Korea and Korean Economic Institute). The fact that you doubt this poverty is astounding.

In regards to the starvation, here is an article from the Korean Economic Institute which clarifies the issue:

Although a food crisis in North Korea was unveiled in
1995, judging from various information, including research
by the media in Japan, it is likely that the decrease
in domestic food production began in 1993.

Another evidence is that, at the plenum of the Central
Committee of the Workers’ Party in December 1993,
North Korea adopted a new economic policy in which
first priority was given to “agriculture, light-industry,
and foreign trade” instead of to the heavy and chemical
industries as had been the case previously.

The harvest in 1994 was also bad, as the North admitted
later. It should be noted, however, that a food crisis
was not unveiled until 1995, in spite of the bad harvests
in 1993 and 1994. The reason is that the North
could make up for the decrease of domestic production
by means of imported grain in the earlier years.

JETRO’s data shows that North Korea imported
0.9~1.0 million tons of grain from China, Canada,
Australia, and Turkey every year in 1991–93. Imports
from China are most significant and stable. Data for
1994 is unavailable. . .

. . . There is considerable information indicating that North
Korea desperately tried to purchase grain from countries
other than China in 1994. North Korea requested
Japan to lend rice in May 1995. After that, on August
17, Nodong Sinmun unveiled the first news about
floods.

To sum up, North Korea has relied for part of its
domestic food supply on the import of almost one million
tons from abroad every year since 1991. Imports
from China, the largest supplier, decreased significantly
from 1994, and North Korea tried to obtain crops from
other countries in 1994 and the first half of 1995, but
largely failed. On top of this, floods ruined domestic
production, so that a food crisis emerged in 1995.

It should be noted that North Korea had already faced
obstacles in purchases of food abroad prior to the
floods, and damage by the flood is only the second factor
in the food crisis in 1995.

Although North Korea’s official news claimed that
floods in 1995 were the worst in a hundred years, we
do not have enough information to compare the damage
to that by floods in former years. Everyone who
has seen the stark-naked land in North Korea without
grasses and flowers in early spring can easily imagine
that deforestation and an absolute shortage of farm investment
are important factors in causing the floods.

Nobody is denying that countless people starved to death. There are videos and pictures depicting people dropping dead from starvation, and on top of that the DPRK acknowledged the problem as early as 1995. This is why it tried to write off the problem as being due to floods and not the mismanagement of the economy.

In regards to North Korea's concentration camps, the UK Guardian did an interview with a defected military attache for Beijing in which he describes his role as chief of management for concentration camp 22. He describes gas chambers used on political prisoners and their families: "I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing." the guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1136483,00.html)

That you would simply write off his testimonial and countless others like it as being inconclusive -- because you are just being a "materialist" after all -- is the most privileged and arrogant piece of trash thing I can think of that has ever been said on this website.

wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_22%2C_North_Korea) is a good place to start when dealing with online sources regarding camp 22, In particular the links section.

Dr Mindbender

6th September 2007, 12:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:24 pm
ok, if north korea is not communist (which it is not) why is everyone defending it? wtf?
ive never defended, nor seen anyone else defend it, but the problem i have is the way in which the U$ demonises the place when to be frank they are probably responsible for 90% of the economic problems there.

R_P_A_S

6th September 2007, 19:09

CompañerodeLibertad,I'm sure you heard like Chimx has and I have about the stories from the defectors like citizen and even some concentration camp officers telling people what they saw and what not. do you consider this source to be false? or these people to just simply be making shit up and giving in to bourgeoisie propaganda?

chimx

6th September 2007, 19:37

CDL wants to discount all primary and secondary sources that provide evidence to a reality that he doesn't want to believe, because he is a materialist.

R_P_A_S

6th September 2007, 20:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:37 pm
CDL wants to discount all primary and secondary sources that provide evidence to a reality that he doesn't want to believe, because he is a materialist.
i consider my self a materialist. and i can see where he is coming from. and I also skeptical about some of the sources that come out of "the most isolated nation on earth" some of you did use some fucked up sources like National Geographic or that documentary "Inside North Korea" which was cool but it sucked ass and it was super biases and just garbage.

But just how I am skeptical about some of the sources, I think I'm smart enough to conclude that North Korea is a totalitarian, stalinist place which is something I'm against. But I don't just blame them or their policies for their "mishap"? one also has to remember the natural disasters and on going undemocratic policies towards the DPRK from the U.S. and other imperialist regimes.

It's easy to attack Kim Jong Il and the government and blame it for everything. BUT I guess thats just the tip of the problem. we can't ignore the other elements that contribute to the condition of the DPRK. no nation or place on earth is perfect but It's safe to say that the DPRK is not progressive and misunderstood. does that make sense?

R_P_A_S

6th September 2007, 20:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 06:25 am
So some of you guys would say that what LINK is doing is worthless? or that is just bad because they are "right-wing"?

i get the arguments from both CompañeroDeLibertad and from Chmx and others. both sides make valid arguments. despite of totally high-jacking my thread. :blush:

i understand the DPRK is not perfect. and it's an easy target for both the imperialist and even many leftist here. we don't know much about it. we know very little. but let me ask you this Compañero. if you were to meet a defector and he told you the horrors he lived through or he was to tell you that he wasn't happy with the so call "socialist" advantages and paradise the government there likes to portrait would you hear him out and maybe sympathize with him? or would you rant on him and call him a counter revolutionary? or something along those lines?
can some one place get back to this subject? I even got off it

Wanted Man

6th September 2007, 20:49

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 07:25 am
So some of you guys would say that what LINK is doing is worthless? or that is just bad because they are "right-wing"?
Well, LiNK mostly appears to be concerned with "independent" liberal activism and awareness campaigning. Do they also help DPRK refugees in China and ROK? Anyway, check out the Korean Friendship Association (http://www.korea-dpr.com/). They are definitely partisans for the regime, but I think their work has more significance. They actually go to the country, and they actually raise funds for the thousands of people who have recently been displaced by the bad weather conditions. I think it's more important to feed and shelter many Koreans who have lost their homes and livelihoods through no choice of their own, than to raise awareness for those few who, of their own choice, decide to flee.

On the character of NK itself, or more specifically the food situation and human rights.

I would take testimonies of refugees with a grain of salt. It is a fact that in some cases, it has turned out that they were paid to make up lies about "death camps". There is a source on this, but I have lost it. Also, a lot of this stories are the Korean equivalent of Humberto Fontova (http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html). Would you believe that Che Guevara tortured children to death for listening to rock 'n roll music, just because a Cuban refugee says so? Opponents of the DPRK love to crow that the country is "isolated", a "hermit kingdom", but they still take as gospel any negative reports from the country. I'm well aware that the DPRK violates the human rights of lots of people, but I find it rather more difficult to believe that "they use gas chambers". Right, and the Iraqis pulled Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_%26_Knowlton#.22Nurse_Nayirah.22) and Che shot teenagers!

Chimx tries the age-old strategy of posting pictures of starving children, to take attention from the topic at hand. Of course, here we have a guy who refers to the imperialist US government as "we", also seems to identify with the ROK government, and generally doesn't care to engage in this discussion beyond the generalities of the anti-DPRK position.

Starvation: there was a famine in the mid-90s, I don't think anyone in their right minds would deny this. Of course, the sad pictures from then (if they are even from then - opponents of the USSR also used pictures of starvation victims of the Russian Civil War against that country in the 1930s) have little to do with the situation today. Still, the food situation is tense, the DPRK government itself knows. Some things to take into account in this, and I'm sure I'm repeating myself here: Threat from outside: there are 37,000 US troops just to the south, and of course the ROK army itself.
Economic sanctions. The DPRK is not just isolated because it wants to, other countries sanction it.
Loss of a lot of trade with the Eastern Bloc after the Wall went down.
Lack of arable land. In 1993, the DPRK had 14% arable land. Since the famine, of course efforts are made to use every inch of this. The soldiers aren't just there to look tough, they are often sent into the country to help out.
Blame it on the weather: well, you've all seen it in the news recently. It's that kind of crap that also makes the food situation even worse. If a flood destroys most of your farms, kills hundreds, and forces 10% of your population to flee, well, in some countries it could be helped. But the DPRK has the above 3 factors to deal with, making it rather less easy. If the Netherlands were completely isolated during the big flood in 1953, hundreds of thousands of Dutchmen would have starved to death as well.

Let's also look at the media role in this. As we've established, the DPRK situation is terrible for a variety of reasons. When the floods hit the Netherlands in 1953, immediately everyone wanted to help, loads of stuff was sent to the people right away. But you're not seeing thousands of people spontaneously donating food and money to the DPRK. Perhaps they should use more sad pictures of starving babies, like chimx! :lol:

R_P_A_S

6th September 2007, 21:32

Let's also look at the media role in this. As we've established, the DPRK situation is terrible for a variety of reasons. When the floods hit the Netherlands in 1953, immediately everyone wanted to help, loads of stuff was sent to the people right away. But you're not seeing thousands of people spontaneously donating food and money to the DPRK.

What about the reports that say that they don't like to be helped.
and in one of those UNDERCOVER vidoes that we've seen they show rice and beans that were donated by the unicef or who ever donates food, the world food something? anyways they were being sold on the street.

im just asking. not trying to say its 100% true and that you are lying. just wondering if you heard about that.

Nothing Human Is Alien

6th September 2007, 22:33

So there's a black market? I wouldn't doubt it. I don't really know what it proves though.

DD made a good post (I actually asked him to comment in this thread, because I didn't have the time) which I basically agree with. The Fontova comparison was likely a good one to make (and that should answer your question to me RPAS).

For those interested in actually learning about the DPRK, DD's post and this (http://www.revleft.com/lofiversion/index.php/t63689.html) will teach you infinitely more than chimx's appeal-to-emotion hungry baby pictures.

chimx

6th September 2007, 22:38

Let's discuss some of the issues you bring up:

* Threat from outside: there are 37,000 US troops just to the south, and of course the ROK army itself.

That is because a peace treaty has never been signed between the two nations over a war that was initiated by the DPRK trying to militarily unify the peninsula. (it is interesting that CDL mentions bourgeois sources being unreliable, because the DPRK published a book of falsified documents trying to prove that the ROK started the war. This of course has been disproven countless times, especially by soviet archive material).

The DPRK has continuously tried to invade the ROK. It has attempted to assassinate its presidents on multiple occassions. The ROK has found 4 DPRK invasion tunnels, and most military officials guess there are many invasion tunnels yet to be found. The axe-murder incident on the DMZ was initiated by the DPRK. The Pueblo incident was initiated by the DPRK.

Despite all that, the United States has on occasion tried to pull troops out of the ROK. If you'll recall, Jimmy Carter campaigned on the issue of getting all American troops out of Korea but was finally unable to follow through on his campaign promises due to the DPRK building up its military along the DMZ for what many believed was another possible invasion! There are still talks today about decreasing troops. One of the republican candidates whose name I forget has made it part of his platform to get American troops out of Korea.

* Economic sanctions. The DPRK is not just isolated because it wants to, other countries sanction it.

The US sanctions it because it could be considered to still be at war with the country. The United Nations doesn't sanction it, due largely to China's veto power on the issue. But to say that this is the reason that the DPRK is isolated is disingenuous. It has always very much so been a hermit kingdom.

* Loss of a lot of trade with the Eastern Bloc after the Wall went down.

Well, that's what happens when you put all of your eggs in one basket.

* Lack of arable land. In 1993, the DPRK had 14% arable land. Since the famine, of course efforts are made to use every inch of this. The soldiers aren't just there to look tough, they are often sent into the country to help out.

Incidentally, up until the 1970s, the DPRK had a much larger industrial complex than the ROK, but due to backwards management of the economy, industry was incapable of being sustained and a process of de-industrialization occurred, despite the geographic limitations you mention. Again, this is due to poor management and poor planning in regards to North Korea's international trade.

* Blame it on the weather: well, you've all seen it in the news recently. It's that kind of crap that also makes the food situation even worse. If a flood destroys most of your farms, kills hundreds, and forces 10% of your population to flee, well, in some countries it could be helped. But the DPRK has the above 3 factors to deal with, making it rather less easy. If the Netherlands were completely isolated during the big flood in 1953, hundreds of thousands of Dutchmen would have starved to death as well.

Yes there were floods and droughts in the 1990s, but signs of a problem were showing before 1995 when the floods hit, which I have already mentioned in an above post.

The real sadness is that during the times of the flooding, the DPRK shifted in policy from Juche (self-reliance) to Songun ("military-first"). As thousands of North Korean refugees fled the country in search of food, the government built up the military complex over spending more on aid work to feed its people. Some speculate that this was at least partially caused by the refugee problem to keep North Koreans inside the country -- while the death of Kim Il-sung also no doubt played a role, given that Kim Jung-il's role in government was primarily a leader of the military. The move was necessary for Kim's power consolidation -- but again, at the expense of North Koreans.

I would take testimonies of refugees with a grain of salt.

That is, of coure, unless you agree with the content of the testimonies, right?

Originally posted by RPAS
But just how I am skeptical about some of the sources, I think I'm smart enough to conclude that North Korea is a totalitarian, stalinist place which is something I'm against.

Exactly rpas. The national geographic documentary was obviously biased, but it still provided us with factual information beyond the bias. It is necessary to be able to see the distinctions between the biases and the real information that is being presented. If we dismiss every historical work, be it primary or secondary, that has some sort of bias to it, we would be left with nothing! We can't throw the baby out with the bath water! I'm glad you're able to see the difference between the two, unlike some people... :?

R_P_A_S

7th September 2007, 00:06

Originally posted by Dick [email protected] 06, 2007 07:49 pm
Well, LiNK mostly appears to be concerned with "independent" liberal activism and awareness campaigning. Do they also help DPRK refugees in China and ROK? Anyway, check out the Korean Friendship Association (http://www.korea-dpr.com/). They are definitely partisans for the regime, but I think their work has more significance. They actually go to the country, and they actually raise funds for the thousands of people who have recently been displaced by the bad weather conditions. I think it's more important to feed and shelter many Koreans who have lost their homes and livelihoods through no choice of their own, than to raise awareness for those few who, of their own choice, decide to flee.

On the character of NK itself, or more specifically the food situation and human rights.

I would take testimonies of refugees with a grain of salt. It is a fact that in some cases, it has turned out that they were paid to make up lies about "death camps". There is a source on this, but I have lost it. Also, a lot of this stories are the Korean equivalent of Humberto Fontova (http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html). Would you believe that Che Guevara tortured children to death for listening to rock 'n roll music, just because a Cuban refugee says so? Opponents of the DPRK love to crow that the country is "isolated", a "hermit kingdom", but they still take as gospel any negative reports from the country. I'm well aware that the DPRK violates the human rights of lots of people, but I find it rather more difficult to believe that "they use gas chambers". Right, and the Iraqis pulled Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_%26_Knowlton#.22Nurse_Nayirah.22) and Che shot teenagers!

Chimx tries the age-old strategy of posting pictures of starving children, to take attention from the topic at hand. Of course, here we have a guy who refers to the imperialist US government as "we", also seems to identify with the ROK government, and generally doesn't care to engage in this discussion beyond the generalities of the anti-DPRK position.

Starvation: there was a famine in the mid-90s, I don't think anyone in their right minds would deny this. Of course, the sad pictures from then (if they are even from then - opponents of the USSR also used pictures of starvation victims of the Russian Civil War against that country in the 1930s) have little to do with the situation today. Still, the food situation is tense, the DPRK government itself knows. Some things to take into account in this, and I'm sure I'm repeating myself here: Threat from outside: there are 37,000 US troops just to the south, and of course the ROK army itself.
Economic sanctions. The DPRK is not just isolated because it wants to, other countries sanction it.
Loss of a lot of trade with the Eastern Bloc after the Wall went down.
Lack of arable land. In 1993, the DPRK had 14% arable land. Since the famine, of course efforts are made to use every inch of this. The soldiers aren't just there to look tough, they are often sent into the country to help out.
Blame it on the weather: well, you've all seen it in the news recently. It's that kind of crap that also makes the food situation even worse. If a flood destroys most of your farms, kills hundreds, and forces 10% of your population to flee, well, in some countries it could be helped. But the DPRK has the above 3 factors to deal with, making it rather less easy. If the Netherlands were completely isolated during the big flood in 1953, hundreds of thousands of Dutchmen would have starved to death as well.

Let's also look at the media role in this. As we've established, the DPRK situation is terrible for a variety of reasons. When the floods hit the Netherlands in 1953, immediately everyone wanted to help, loads of stuff was sent to the people right away. But you're not seeing thousands of people spontaneously donating food and money to the DPRK. Perhaps they should use more sad pictures of starving babies, like chimx! :lol:
i see your point and you made a good one. and this is one of the things I'm trying to explain to my girlfriend. because she is Korean and she turned me on to that organization "LiNK" and she was a bit annoyed by my skepticism. I just told her that I had to research it. I'm down for humanitarian causes DONT GET ME WRONG. BUT I like to be informed and know who is running the show and what's the ultimate objective here, besides feeding and sheltering people who flee.

I'm still a bit conflicted over the issue. I mean normaly people jump and sympathize with a cause like this and support it. "helping refugees from North Korea" but why in the hell am I being so damn indecisive about it, why don't I trust LiNK, seems like they mean well..

i need help and answers. :(

Red Scare

7th September 2007, 02:48

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 05, 2007 04:20 pm

The old, "if I can't counter your criticisms, I'll simply try to discredit your sources."

You bet, especially when I originally asked one trashing the DPRK "How do you know? Have you been there? Do you have any reliable sources to base your analysis on?"

Your sources discredited themselves btw. I'll note that you didn't even bother defending them (except the US Country Study, which I knew you would try to paint as some 'neutral' work from the Library of Congress, without mentioning that it was "sponsored by the U.S. Department of the Army" of course).

Starvation in North Korea:

These pictures could be from anywhere. At least one has long been proven fake. I guess that doesn't matter though. If chimx says these pictures are real they must be...

But even then, what do they prove? That there's hunger in the DPRK? Maybe there is. There's hunger is most places. I can think of only one where no one is starving. Is there mass hunger? Maybe, hard to tell. If there is, is it caused by famine? Even then, is it caused by a real natural famine, or a man-made one like this (http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?60) (and why don't you even mention those kind, in capitalist countries, which happen all the time)? How do you know? Sources from the U.S. government or Japanese bourgeois media? Next I guess you'll use sources like Jesse Helms and The Miami Herald to tell us about Cuba...

If you want eye witness information, I suggest you read The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag.

That definitely sounds unbiased... especially when the author was a "upper middle class child living in Japan."

I could find dozens of books claiming Fidel was this or that kind of monster.. the only difference is there's enough info to refute them. In the DPRK, as I said, it's hard to know exactly what's going on.. but that doesn't mean we should take a book like this as hard truth. Unfortunately, the DPRK is one of those places you can say anything about and get away with.

There's the old communist joke about how the bourgeoisie spreads propaganda about Stalin, Mao or whoever eating babies.. once I actually heard someone in New York claim that Kim Jong Il eats infants. She was being serious.

Soon Ok Lee, a committed Party member, also has a book about her time in a Korean prison camp,

Heh, did you find that in the "people that bought this book have also purchased" section of the Amazon page for the previous book? Have you ever actually read the book?

This review sounds promising: "This book is a wake-up call to those of us in free nations."

but I don't know much about it.

Never stopped you before.

...

But yeah, there may be 'prison camps.' But there are 'prison camps' in a lot of countries. In the U.S. for example. But instead of opposing his own bourgeoisie's actions (which we can confirm easily) in the U.S., chimx would rather join in the imperialists in bashing the DPRK. It's much easier, and more fitting to his character.

National Geographic did a documentary on North Korea in which they snuck cameras into the country with a humanitarian medical mission (due to poverty and a lack of medical facilities, North Korea has one of the highest rates of blindness).

Yes, because National Geographic is very unbiased.. here, for example (http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature3/multimedia.html). :lol:

Maybe the footage is legit. Then again, maybe it's not. I wouldn't put it passed them. But either way, it shows some people starving, some people with cataracts, an interview with a doctor and a few other things right? Do you think it would be hard for me to make a video with poor and starving people, people with cataracts and an interview with a doctor who has treated a lot of poor folks here in New York? I don't think so (though finding the doctor might be the hardest part, poor people he usually don't get to see a doctor, and definitely don't get their cataracts removed).

It doesn't show a serious, overall picture of the DPRK, of the workings of the economy, of the government, of how things really are.

Of course, there is a cult of personality to be sure (one can sense that from the very news released by the KNA), and it's definitely not perfect. But is it what the imperialists say it is? I doubt it.

You should note how often they refer to Kim Jung-il as a God. When I was in Seoul last month I talked with some folk who had done work with North Korean refugees in China. One of them had tried to talk to the refugees about Kim, and they said to him, "Do not mention his name! He is a God and you have no right to even speak his name!" Or something to that effect. There is an extreme indoctrination from an early age for total submission to the Dear Leader and state power.

When I was in Seoul someone told me that someone he was with tried to talk to someone else and......

:lol:

ok, if north korea is not communist (which it is not) why is everyone defending it? wtf?

Did you read my post at all?

"Look, the DPRK certainly isn't perfect, but it's really difficult for people that don't live there to get a proper grasp on what goes in it, especially with the imperialist smear campaign that goes on. If you're really interested in learning about it, there are some sources that are much better than the garbage chimx (a guy who refers to the U.S. government as "we" and blames a country for being forced into trading almost solely with the socialist countries by imperialist encirclement, and then loosing even those trading partners due to capitalist counterrevolution) provided, but I still wouldn't expect to gain a great understanding."

Some of the others may uphold it as socialist.

* * *

Here are some alternate sources for those interested:

National Lawyer's Guild report on the DPRK from 2003 (http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html) - mentions the sanctions on the country, and their effects, and work by soldiers to help grow food, among other things.

... this thread (http://www.revleft.com/lofiversion/index.php/t63689.html) has some decent posts by Dick Dastardly, who points out some of the reasons behind food problems, though I would probably have more criticisms of the DPRK than him.
ok ok, north korea is NOT communist so why do you give a shit about defending it? they need a revolution there like they need one everywhere else. you might as well be defending stalin

Red Scare

7th September 2007, 02:49

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+September 06, 2007 06:06 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ September 06, 2007 06:06 pm)
Dick [email protected] 06, 2007 07:49 pm
Well, LiNK mostly appears to be concerned with "independent" liberal activism and awareness campaigning. Do they also help DPRK refugees in China and ROK? Anyway, check out the Korean Friendship Association (http://www.korea-dpr.com/). They are definitely partisans for the regime, but I think their work has more significance. They actually go to the country, and they actually raise funds for the thousands of people who have recently been displaced by the bad weather conditions. I think it's more important to feed and shelter many Koreans who have lost their homes and livelihoods through no choice of their own, than to raise awareness for those few who, of their own choice, decide to flee.

On the character of NK itself, or more specifically the food situation and human rights.

I would take testimonies of refugees with a grain of salt. It is a fact that in some cases, it has turned out that they were paid to make up lies about "death camps". There is a source on this, but I have lost it. Also, a lot of this stories are the Korean equivalent of Humberto Fontova (http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html). Would you believe that Che Guevara tortured children to death for listening to rock 'n roll music, just because a Cuban refugee says so? Opponents of the DPRK love to crow that the country is "isolated", a "hermit kingdom", but they still take as gospel any negative reports from the country. I'm well aware that the DPRK violates the human rights of lots of people, but I find it rather more difficult to believe that "they use gas chambers". Right, and the Iraqis pulled Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_%26_Knowlton#.22Nurse_Nayirah.22) and Che shot teenagers!

Chimx tries the age-old strategy of posting pictures of starving children, to take attention from the topic at hand. Of course, here we have a guy who refers to the imperialist US government as "we", also seems to identify with the ROK government, and generally doesn't care to engage in this discussion beyond the generalities of the anti-DPRK position.

Starvation: there was a famine in the mid-90s, I don't think anyone in their right minds would deny this. Of course, the sad pictures from then (if they are even from then - opponents of the USSR also used pictures of starvation victims of the Russian Civil War against that country in the 1930s) have little to do with the situation today. Still, the food situation is tense, the DPRK government itself knows. Some things to take into account in this, and I'm sure I'm repeating myself here:
Threat from outside: there are 37,000 US troops just to the south, and of course the ROK army itself.

Economic sanctions. The DPRK is not just isolated because it wants to, other countries sanction it.

Loss of a lot of trade with the Eastern Bloc after the Wall went down.

Lack of arable land. In 1993, the DPRK had 14% arable land. Since the famine, of course efforts are made to use every inch of this. The soldiers aren't just there to look tough, they are often sent into the country to help out.

Blame it on the weather: well, you've all seen it in the news recently. It's that kind of crap that also makes the food situation even worse. If a flood destroys most of your farms, kills hundreds, and forces 10% of your population to flee, well, in some countries it could be helped. But the DPRK has the above 3 factors to deal with, making it rather less easy. If the Netherlands were completely isolated during the big flood in 1953, hundreds of thousands of Dutchmen would have starved to death as well.

Let's also look at the media role in this. As we've established, the DPRK situation is terrible for a variety of reasons. When the floods hit the Netherlands in 1953, immediately everyone wanted to help, loads of stuff was sent to the people right away. But you're not seeing thousands of people spontaneously donating food and money to the DPRK. Perhaps they should use more sad pictures of starving babies, like chimx! :lol:
i see your point and you made a good one. and this is one of the things I'm trying to explain to my girlfriend. because she is Korean and she turned me on to that organization "LiNK" and she was a bit annoyed by my skepticism. I just told her that I had to research it. I'm down for humanitarian causes DONT GET ME WRONG. BUT I like to be informed and know who is running the show and what's the ultimate objective here, besides feeding and sheltering people who flee.

I'm still a bit conflicted over the issue. I mean normaly people jump and sympathize with a cause like this and support it. "helping refugees from North Korea" but why in the hell am I being so damn indecisive about it, why don't I trust LiNK, seems like they mean well..

i need help and answers. :( [/b]
screw LiNK lets just have a worldwide revolution and overthrow the oppressors

R_P_A_S

7th September 2007, 03:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 01:49 am
screw LiNK lets just have a worldwide revolution and overthrow the oppressors
ok lets do it monday? its monday good for everyone? the revolution? or should we do it on a weekend? you know catch the bourgeoisie rested and by surprise? ;)

look I want revolution as bad as any of you here. but when it comes to humanitarian help for individuals why am I getting the vibe that most of you oppose it? is it because it seems like charity or a temporary remedy? for a few?

help me out here.

Axel1917

7th September 2007, 06:38

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 08:24 pm
ok, if north korea is not communist (which it is not) why is everyone defending it? wtf?
I defend the fundamental gains of a planned economy and against imperialist aggression toward North Korea.

North Korea has all kinds of problems - starvation, an unparalleled totalitarian regime, etc., but the bourgeoisie have proven themselves to be so rotten that in the backward countries they are not even capable of carrying out the most basic tasks of the Bourgeois-democratic revolution. A return to capitalism would be far worse. Just look at China's 19th Century working conditions. Only a socialist revolution can carry North Korea forward. The Stalinsts that run North Korea will destroy the planned economy eventually if something is not done about them. The North Korean economy has been wrecked since the 1970's. China also has massive leverage over North Korea as well.

I don't have a lot of time to research and explain things, but see the article at http://www.marxist.com/where-is-north-kore...ing101006-5.htm (http://www.marxist.com/where-is-north-korea-going101006-5.htm) to get an idea where I am coming from.

RHIZOMES

7th September 2007, 07:42

Originally posted by Dick [email protected] 06, 2007 07:49 pm
Starvation: there was a famine in the mid-90s, I don't think anyone in their right minds would deny this. Of course, the sad pictures from then (if they are even from then - opponents of the USSR also used pictures of starvation victims of the Russian Civil War against that country in the 1930s) have little to do with the situation today.
I recognize one of the pictures, it's from hidden footage this man who had been sneaking back and forth into NK in about 2003 I believe.

Forward Union

7th September 2007, 17:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 09:11 pm
here is the link.
what do you guys think about this?

http://www.linkglobal.org/
I've read the debate between Chimx and CDL, it's been a good read.

But when I clicked on that website, I couldn't help but notice that it quoted Gandhi the Male Chauvanist, relgious "pacifist" who wrote to the British government warning them that they must be harsher on African colonies, and proposed race war between the Indians and the blacks...

What a load of liberal trash.

My support lies with the North Korean working class. Not some stupid liberal trash project.

Sugar Hill Kevis

7th September 2007, 18:38

fuck north korea

R_P_A_S

7th September 2007, 19:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 07, 2007 05:38 pm
fuck north korea
most intelligent post yet ladies and gentleman! :rolleyes:

chimx

7th September 2007, 19:34

He more concisely says what I've been trying to say in dozens of paragraphs, so I actually kind of agree. :D

Sugar Hill Kevis

7th September 2007, 19:58

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+September 07, 2007 07:26 pm--> (R_P_A_S @ September 07, 2007 07:26 pm)
[email protected] 07, 2007 05:38 pm
fuck north korea
most intelligent post yet ladies and gentleman! :rolleyes: [/b]
Don't get me wrong, I read all of chimx's and CdLs arguments which I found very interesting; they're both obviously much more informed about the subject than me and thus I reserved from partaking in any lengthy diatribe...

As chimx said above, I'm just letting my sentiment be known through one declarative sentence rather than going to the length of writing over 1000 words on the subject...

The Author

8th September 2007, 05:15

Yep. People are starving in the D.P.R.K.

Here's splendid "evidence,"

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1292.jpg

People getting ready to eat a statue of Kim Il Sung.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1287.jpg

More people attempting to eat floor tiles.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1486.jpg

Kids so hungry, they decided to go rollerskating.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1498.jpg

Kids getting ready to eat their football (soccer ball).

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1916.jpg

And Marx and Lenin for good measure.

Compliments of http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/phen_tpk_e.html

Do I need to respond to chimx's anti-communist bullshit? No, certainly not worth the time. Especially when I read his remarks about the "mismanaged planned economy." As opposed to what, a "free market" economy? Because it's the bourgeois economists and the bourgeois historians who tend to dismiss socialist countries as "mismanaged planned economies" in order to promote the free markets and globalization.

I'm not saying that the D.P.R.K. is paradise on Earth. The socialist transition period between capitalism and communism is not expected to be such, only true communism is paradise, which no country, not even Cuba, has yet to achieve. People who are "Marxists" and "communists" seem to forget about this transition period- they would rather put their faith into the ideas of Hannah Arendt and George Orwell than Marx and Lenin.

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th September 2007, 05:39

Anybody who's interested in seeing where chimx really stands here (if it isn't already obvious enough), should check out this recent thread (http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=70643&st=0&#entry1292375417)..

R_P_A_S

8th September 2007, 05:39

so most of you, who argue in favor of the DPRK. would you say you are siding with the policies of the DPRK's workers party? and in support of Kim Jong il?

what are the thoughts on Kim Jong Il?

R_P_A_S

8th September 2007, 06:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 04:15 am
Yep. People are starving in the D.P.R.K.

Here's splendid "evidence,"

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1292.jpg

People getting ready to eat a statue of Kim Il Sung.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1287.jpg

More people attempting to eat floor tiles.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1486.jpg

Kids so hungry, they decided to go rollerskating.

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1498.jpg

Kids getting ready to eat their football (soccer ball).

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1916.jpg

And Marx and Lenin for good measure.

Compliments of http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/phen_tpk_e.html

Do I need to respond to chimx's anti-communist bullshit? No, certainly not worth the time. Especially when I read his remarks about the "mismanaged planned economy." As opposed to what, a "free market" economy? Because it's the bourgeois economists and the bourgeois historians who tend to dismiss socialist countries as "mismanaged planned economies" in order to promote the free markets and globalization.

I'm not saying that the D.P.R.K. is paradise on Earth. The socialist transition period between capitalism and communism is not expected to be such, only true communism is paradise, which no country, not even Cuba, has yet to achieve. People who are "Marxists" and "communists" seem to forget about this transition period- they would rather put their faith into the ideas of Hannah Arendt and George Orwell than Marx and Lenin.
that page is AMAZING!

chimx

8th September 2007, 06:57

Criticize: I am sure you are aware that the residents of Pyongyang have been the recipient of awards for committedness to the regime, and are residents of that city because of this. Pyongyang is very-much-so a facade for the outside world. I'm sure you are aware of the large highways in that area that never receive traffic. There is testimony of foreigners visiting the country and realizing that the same few dozens cars kept passing them on the streets -- as a show to diplomats from outside the hermit king to prove that the DPRK isn't really as poor and shitty as it actually is. XD

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th September 2007, 07:31

Except that the page CEA linked to shows pictures from all over the country, not just the capital.... why let a little fact like that get in the way of your pro-imperialist garbage though?

Yeah, the DPRK is poor.. that's a great criticism. Guess what? Most of the world is.

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th September 2007, 07:34

so most of you, who argue in favor of the DPRK. would you say you are siding with the policies of the DPRK's workers party? and in support of Kim Jong il?

I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I don't think anyone here supports Kim Jong Il..

That doesn't mean they don't support the Korean workers and farmers against imperialist attack (and slander and lies meant to facilitate that attack).

chimx

8th September 2007, 08:15

The DPRK is fucked by its own design and incompetency. In the words of Bruce Cummings, "North Korea is the author of much of its problems."

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th September 2007, 08:27

Right.. Bruce Cumings, a bourgeois historian. If he says so, it must be true!

Back here on earth, things are a little different. Rather than being the cause of the problems in the DPRK, the planned economy has actually helped limit them, as even the UN had to admit in 96 when its Food and Agricultural Organization and World Food Program wrote "Perhaps the most important reason that there was no wide scale famine during the year, was an effective Public Distribution System, which ensured food, albeit at much reduced levels, to the entire population. In Korea, the effects of food shortages have been uniformly spread over the population and the PDS has proven itself to be a highly effective channel for food assistance."

So yeah, chimx's criticism is from the right, based on the fact that under the planned economy suffering was minimized by being spread out (as opposed to being solely and disproportionately laid on the workers and farmers as it would have been in the sort of capitalist market economy he prefers).

Forward Union

8th September 2007, 11:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 08, 2007 05:21 am

that page is AMAZING!
Notice the lack of cars...

Those are some wonderful propaganda photos of the built up *model* areas of the capital.

But it's like taking photos of the white house, and other American landmarks and saying that the nations people are doing just fine. It's a bad medium for carrying argument. And I include the starving kid pictures in that criticism.

Because, going by just the pictures, I could conclude that some areas of north Korea are in poverty, while other parts (government buildings and surrounding areas) are well developed. It sounds just like everywhere else.

Vargha Poralli

8th September 2007, 11:22

Originally posted by Urban Spirit
I couldn't help but notice that it quoted Gandhi the Male Chauvanist, relgious "pacifist" who wrote to the British government warning them that they must be harsher on African colonies, and proposed race war between the Indians and the blacks...

Hate to hijack or deviate but Can you provide the source for this Baseless Accustaion ?

chimx

8th September 2007, 13:56

So yeah, chimx's criticism is from the right

Yup, as opposed to yours, from the wrong.

I never said that the DPRK's planned economy disabled food assistance. Thank you for building a scarecrow argument for your audience. I said the DPRK's planned economy helped to get them into the problem in the first place, which noted Korean economists agree with.

You say Bruce Cummings is a bourgeois historian. Please CDL, what have you actually even read by him that would lead you to these conclusions? Please tell me! I am dying to know how many books and essays the Cummings has authored that you have read. Even Intelligitimate, a die-hard lover of the USSR, has read Cummings at my suggestion and appreciates its historical value.

Nothing Human Is Alien

8th September 2007, 20:09

Notice the lack of cars...

Which is common in most imperialist-oppressed countries (though not always to the extent of the DPRK).

One could also 'note' that the lack of cars is covered through those pages, with the author explaining that a lot of people have bikes but that cars as used mostly by actors, gov't bureaucrats, and the military. Of course, there are buses and trains.

Those are some wonderful propaganda photos of the built up *model* areas of the capital.

But it's like taking photos of the white house, and other American landmarks and saying that the nations people are doing just fine.

Um.. this again? Did you bother to go through all the pictures, or just look at that first page? As I noted just a few posts ago, "the page CEA linked to shows pictures from all over the country, not just the capital...."

It's a bad medium for carrying argument. And I include the starving kid pictures in that criticism.

Agreed.. but you can't blame someone for posting that (frankly much better, detailed, pictures, from an obviously unbiased source) in response to chimx's appeal-to-emotion starving baby pics.

Because, going by just the pictures, I could conclude that some areas of north Korea are in poverty, while other parts (government buildings and surrounding areas) are well developed. It sounds just like everywhere else.

And in that, you're probably closer to the truth than many others. Of course the DPRK has its bureaucrats, a centrally planned economy, and has some big differences from other countries, but it's not some hell that's 10,000 x worse than even the poorest countries in Sub-Saharan Africa as the imperialists (and chimx) would have you believe.

Last time I checked, most of the imperialist-oppressed countries didn't have free healthcare and education... nor did they even pretend to try to meet human need.

I never said that the DPRK's planned economy disabled food assistance.

Nope, you said it caused the DPRK's problems, which isn't the case.. and in fact, as I showed, it actually minimizes them.

But I guess analyses of the DPRK's economy, arable land, loss of trading partners, etc. which can give some reasons for the recent food problems in
the country cannot compare to assertions like "The DPRK is fucked by its own design and incompetency."

Of course, that doesn't respond to the reality that the DPRK surpassed the ROK for years and years, up until the U.S. imperialists started flooding the ROK with capital a few decades ago, both for economic reasons and as a part of their moves to encircle and overthrow the socialist countries.

which noted Korean economists agree with.

Because bourgeois 'economists' are definitely a source we should defer to on this sort of issue.

Most bourgeois economists agree that Cuba should open up its economy to imperialist penetration, stop central planning and slash social spending.... Unfortunately for them (and you), that's not going to happen.

You say Bruce Cummings [sic*] is a bourgeois historian. Please CDL, what have you actually even read by him that would lead you to these conclusions? Please tell me! I am dying to know how many books and essays the Cummings [sic] has authored that you have read.

* His name is Bruce Cumings, for anyone interested in looking him up.

He is nominally a 'leftist' (in the way that term is thrown around in main stream, bourgeois politics, which you seem so found of), and can't help but admit some truths (i.e. that Korea would have been much better off united under the DPRK than in a war, something you won't even admit, claiming the U.S. 'defended' the south from the evil north), but he has a bourgeois approach to history, and this is seen in his work on Korea.

Not that it matters, but I have read Korea's Place in the Sun and browsed Inventing the Axis of Evil. I have a copy of North Korea somewhere, but I haven't read it.

Even Intelligitimate, a die-hard lover of the USSR, has read Cummings [sic] at my suggestion and appreciates its historical value.

And 'Marxist-Leninists' in the CPUSA voted for John Kerry...

Seriously, I don't deny there are some useful things in Cuming's works. I specifically noted early in this thread that "You can often gather grains of truth from various bourgeois sources, but you've got to know how to sort out the bullshit.. you really need to balance them out with working-class sources, where available, and concrete evidence."

One communist group that I know of has cited Cumings (http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=727) before, but noted he was "no friend of the Workers Party of Korea".

Comrade Rage

8th September 2007, 20:19

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:37 pm
CDL wants to discount all primary and secondary sources that provide evidence to a reality that he doesn't want to believe, because he is a materialist.
Or maybe it's because your sources are Western propaganda at worst, or shaky at best.

chimx

9th September 2007, 01:14

but it's not some hell that's 10,000 x worse than even the poorest countries in Sub-Saharan Africa as the imperialists (and chimx) would have you believe.

The DPRK is the only country that I can think of that has child political prisoners that they send to labor camps and concentration camps. To this day they punish the families of political prisoners. You can use google earth to look at DPRK concentration camps if you are morbidly curious enough.

Talk about a workers paradise.

Nope, you said it caused the DPRK's problems, which isn't the case.. and in fact, as I showed, it actually minimizes them.

Re-read what I said. The problem was created initially in 1993 and 1994 before flooding occurred in 1995. This doesn't even count mismanagement prior to 1993!

Because bourgeois 'economists' are definitely a source we should defer to on this sort of issue.

Do you have proof otherwise, or are you just trying to again discredit the evidence by saying it is "bourgeois".

I can get away with all sorts of shit if that's the case! Copernicus said the earth revolves around the sun! Don't believe it, it's a bourgeois source! (Thank god Soviet scientists were able to re-prove it later on!) :D

Newton said an object in motion stays in motion. Bourgeois source! It must not be true.

PROVE YOUR COUNTER-ARGUMENT WITH EVIDENCE! Don't say "bourgeois" and think that is good enough.

I have read Korea's Place in the Sun

This is probably one of Cumings' weaker books. He is not an expert on pre-WWII Korean history and it shows in the writing of this book. He is only famous in Korean historiography because of his two-volume book called Origins.

Or maybe it's because your sources are Western propaganda at worst, or shaky at best.

I've shown you video footage of North Korean society. I've provided links to a small section of countless testimonials of citizens fleeing the country. I have provided economic figures that explain the folly of the DPRK's economy. I've provided a lot of reading material on Korean history. Is there something in particular that you are hoping for that I could add onto this rather large pile of evidence?

The Author

9th September 2007, 01:44

The DPRK is the only country that I can think of that has child political prisoners that they send to labor camps and concentration camps. To this day they punish the families of political prisoners. You can use google earth to look at DPRK concentration camps if you are morbidly curious enough.

Talk about a workers paradise.

Child political prisoners? Where did you get this horseshit? Yale? Harvard? Stanford?

Oh, and way to go on ignoring what me and CDL said earlier about the D.P.R.K. not being a worker's paradise. Apparently you like to pick and choose what to read when it suits your politics, whatever those "politics" may be...

Do you have proof otherwise, or are you just trying to again discredit the evidence by saying it is "bourgeois".

I can get away with all sorts of shit if that's the case! Copernicus said the earth revolves around the sun! Don't believe it, it's a bourgeois source! (Thank god Soviet scientists were able to re-prove it later on!)

The theories of natural science are not analyzed in terms of bourgeois and proletarian, but progressive and reactionary, since the natural sciences pertain to general principles serving all, not just certain classes. Theories of history and politics and economics are the opposite; they revolve around the ruling class. You have either the bourgeois interpretation of economics and history, which upholds theories such as the "great men," "market forces," "totalitarian communism," while the proletariat opposes these flawed, incorrect conceptions.

I mean, what did you expect? An imperialist country sure as hell is not going to endorse serious progressive, leftist, or communist views which would eventually lead to its own overthrow. Whatever communist literature is produced in an imperialist country is usually outnumbered in print compared to the anti-communist, slanderous propaganda against the proletariat and their class struggle. Plus, you need to take into account how the intelligentsia in the imperialist countries represent the petit-bourgeois outlook: they love their armchair, and they certainly aren't giving up their luxuries to some toiling worker, so they put their pen to the paper and punch out the polemic.

I've shown you video footage of North Korean society. I've provided links to a small section of countless testimonials of citizens fleeing the country. I have provided economic figures that explain the folly of the DPRK's economy. I've provided a lot of reading material on Korean history. Is there something in particular that you are hoping for that I could add onto this rather large pile of evidence?

And I've shown you photographic evidence from a non-partisan Russian who visited the entire countryside- not just Pyongyang- which you decided to almost completely ignore. This is how things usually go on RevLeft: read some stuff, ignore the rest, and debate the same things over and over again, while those unfortunate others who took the time to research their material were discouraged and frustrated because the other side chose to either remain ignorant or quickly dismiss what was offered.

chimx

9th September 2007, 02:01

Child political prisoners? Where did you get this horseshit?

Many defectors have told similar stories regarding North Korean gulags. Some of whom have been Party supervisors of these camps.

Oh, and way to go on ignoring what me and CDL said earlier about the D.P.R.K. not being a worker's paradise.

I wasn't really directing that at you. CDL has said that he thinks that the DPRK regime is preferable to that of the ROK regime and has defended the existence of this "workers state" (to use his words) a great deal. He may say it isn't a paradise in one place, but he seems to treat it otherwise.

An imperialist country sure as hell is not going to endorse serious progressive, leftist, or communist views which would eventually lead to its own overthrow.

And you think that history should do this?????? Again, that is the work of a propagandist. Not a historian.

And I've shown you photographic evidence from a non-partisan Russian who visited the entire countryside- not just Pyongyang- which you decided to almost completely ignore.

I'm sorry if you think I was ignoring it. Perhaps I should clarify. Most foreigners in the DPRK are watched by state "minders" who follow the foreigner around and make sure he or she only sees what they are supposed to see. This is what I was speaking to in regards to the unused freeways, that the DPRK has a history of creating farcical depictions of itself for outsiders to view. One has to be as critical of state-sponsored depictions of the DPRK as one is of images produced by those opposed to the DPRK regime. (The only reason I posted those photos originally was because after citing evidence, CDL insisted on saying that there is the possibility that a famine didn't even exist, which I found to be rather offensive).