Skinheads are not Fascists or Nazis

[Black Flag Rising]

I'm sick and tired of bullshit generalizations that label Skinheads as Nazis, Racists, Fascists, etc.

Sure, there are assholes like this:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u163/TonyFelony/1103061allgier1.jpg

But in origin, the Skinhead movement was a working-class subculture that was hand in hand with Left-Wing poltitics.

I will not deny that there are Skinheads like the Nazi fuck above, but they aren't really skinheads. I see a pattern.

Hitler uses "Nation Socialist" to label his views, to appeal to the working class.

Neo-Nazis use Skinhead, a working-class movement.

This link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead), the wikipedia article on Skins, is the most accurate description to be found, so far.

I call myself a Skinhead because I do dress like this:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/nazrin88/skin0986xf3cm3co.jpg

Though I don't have a shaved head (I have a mohawk though, shaved sides, so kinda). But it's not the look. It's the working class attitude and the militant beliefs.

Even people on revleft call neo-nazis Skinheads. STOP!!!

[Lord Testicles]

I think most people on Revleft are aware of this (or should be).


I will not deny that there are Skinheads like the Nazi fuck above, but they aren't really skinheads

The above person would be a "bonehead" :P

[Fawkes]

I've been thinking of making a thread about this for a long time. If it wasn't for Jamaica, the skinhead culture wouldn't even exist, so to think that it is inherently racist is stupid.

P.S. I would also like to add that that guy's tattoos are incredibly ugly and stupid looking.

[Black Flag Rising]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 08:59 pm
I think most people on Revleft are aware of this (or should be).


I will not deny that there are Skinheads like the Nazi fuck above, but they aren't really skinheads

The above person would be a "bonehead" :P
Shit, that's great. I'll start calling them boneheads now.

I was looking for a word for them before, and I just rmember the appropriate word was Hammerskin...

[Black Flag Rising]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 09:00 pm
I've been thinking of making a thread about this for a long time. If it wasn't for Jamaica, the skinhead culture wouldn't even exist, so to think that it is inherently racist is stupid.

P.S. I would also like to add that that guy's tattoos are incredibly ugly and stupid looking.
Yeah, Skins, at first, listened to Ska and Rocksteady. I listen to some, though I'm more of a StreetPunk type.

I know...who the fuck tatoos their face?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Black Flag Rising+September 04, 2007 04:07 pm--> (Black Flag Rising @ September 04, 2007 04:07 pm)
[email protected] 04, 2007 09:00 pm
I've been thinking of making a thread about this for a long time. If it wasn't for Jamaica, the skinhead culture wouldn't even exist, so to think that it is inherently racist is stupid.

P.S. I would also like to add that that guy's tattoos are incredibly ugly and stupid looking.
Yeah, Skins, at first, listened to Ska and Rocksteady. I listen to some, though I'm more of a StreetPunk type.

I know...who the fuck tatoos their face? [/b]
I'm more of a hardcore fan myself. Tattoos on the face are pretty bad even when there are only a few, but that is just fucking horrendous.

[spartan]

more and more people are realising now that the skinhead sub culture was originally a working class multicultural movement whos aim was to bring together young british whites and immigrant black jamaicans. unfortunately it was hijacked by the racists such as the band skrewdriver in the late 70's and early 80's. i personally love the skinhead sub culture. oh and another name for a left wing skinhead is REDSKIN.

[midnight marauder]

I don't really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they're not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.

[spartan]

I don't really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they're not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.
i think what Black Flag Rising meant was the overwhelming mainstream media negativity to this sub culture which to the mainstream media is synonymous with the racist white power thing and the fact that they dont bother to tell the real history of the sub culture which was a working class multicultural movement aimed at bringing together young british whites and immigrant jamaican blacks.

[Djehuti]

The first skins were actually so called "hard-mods", they appeared when the mainstream mods became hippie-influenced "peacock mods" around 1965. The hard-mods instead placed further focuse on working class atttributes and their motto "Clean living under hard circumstances". Hardmods/Original skinheads (hardmods became more known as "skinheads" around -68) were also very influenced by jamaican Rude Boy-culture.

They listened to traditional mod music such as Soul (particulary Northern Soul), modern jazz, ska, rocksteady, blues, rock/pop band such as the Kinks, the Who, The Small Faces and The Yardbirds.

The original skinheads were never a very large movement and descended during the 70-ties. In 1977 came punk-music and Ska-revival (2-tone) and skinhead-culture gained a huge revival. Around 1984 boneheads became more and more common and this had a huge and negative effect on the skinhead movement. Still, ~10 years after the death of large-scale bonhead culture, many believe skinheads and boneheads to be the same thing. In media nazis are often described as "skinheads" even if they're not even boneheads! But most of the younger population now realize the difference between a skinhead and a bonehead, and I think that almost everyone here do so.

[Dr Mindbender]

if you watch the movie 'this is england' it shows you how the fash stole the skinhead identity from the carribean movement. A comrade posted the dailymotion link to it a while back, here is the relevant thread-
http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic=66053

[Black Flag Rising]

Originally posted by midnight [email protected] 04, 2007 09:55 pm
I don't really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they're not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.
Actually, that's inaccurate. The defining characteristic of Skinhead "culture" is working class, left wing beliefs. This completely contrasts to Nazism. Because they lack the entire idea of the movement, they can't be called skinheads. It's not really about the look, the boots, or the shaved head. They jsut wear shit like that to look proletarian, to represent the working class.

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by Black Flag Rising+September 05, 2007 05:16 pm--> (Black Flag Rising @ September 05, 2007 05:16 pm)
midnight [email protected] 04, 2007 09:55 pm
I don't really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they're not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.
Actually, that's inaccurate. The defining characteristic of Skinhead "culture" is working class, left wing beliefs. This completely contrasts to Nazism. Because they lack the entire idea of the movement, they can't be called skinheads. It's not really about the look, the boots, or the shaved head. They jsut wear shit like that to look proletarian, to represent the working class. [/b]
Exactly, if you call them anything Skinhead, call them Hammerskins or Pseduo-Skins.

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by spartan
Another name for a left wing skinhead is a REDSKIN

This is cool because there's a football team called the redskins and there was a scene called Football Hooligans that consisted mainly of skinheads.

[gilhyle]

Anyone remember the SWP band - the Redskins (almost really good)

Look at any old film of a Madness concert and you get a good idea of the skinhead culture if you look at the audience. Hi energy 12 year old skins.


But the fascist thing was not as late as 84, it was already happening by about 1980

[Dimentio]

I think the skinhead subculture, no matter what ideology it endorses, is really ugly and hedonist, focusing on partying, beer and clothes, like any other subculture but worse.

[spartan]

I think the skinhead subculture, no matter what ideology it endorses, is really ugly and hedonist, focusing on partying, beer and clothes, like any other subculture but worse.
if it brought people from different ethnicities together for the intrests of the working class like its original purpose then who cares! also if someone wants to party and drink and wear distinctive clothing what right have we to stop them?

WHERE THERE IS AUTHORITY THERE IS NO FREEDOM!

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:14 pm

I think the skinhead subculture, no matter what ideology it endorses, is really ugly and hedonist, focusing on partying, beer and clothes, like any other subculture but worse.
if it brought people from different ethnicities together for the intrests of the working class like its original purpose then who cares! also if someone wants to party and drink and wear distinctive clothing what right have we to stop them?

WHERE THERE IS AUTHORITY THERE IS NO FREEDOM!
Right on, I suppose.

The original skinheads were adolescents and wanted to shake things up a bit. Skinheads are completely militant on their beliefs. It's kind of a generalization to say they drink alot of beer and party all the time, a little. Though most do...

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 10:14 pm

I think the skinhead subculture, no matter what ideology it endorses, is really ugly and hedonist, focusing on partying, beer and clothes, like any other subculture but worse.
if it brought people from different ethnicities together for the intrests of the working class like its original purpose then who cares! also if someone wants to party and drink and wear distinctive clothing what right have we to stop them?

WHERE THERE IS AUTHORITY THERE IS NO FREEDOM!
without authority will there be someone to reprimand people for having fascist beliefs? I think even in a post revolutionary situation, there will be some form of 'thin blue line' or 'thin red line' as the case may be.
:blink:

[midnight marauder]

Actually, that's inaccurate. The defining characteristic of Skinhead "culture" is working class, left wing beliefs. This completely contrasts to Nazism. Because they lack the entire idea of the movement, they can't be called skinheads. It's not really about the look, the boots, or the shaved head. They jsut wear shit like that to look proletarian, to represent the working class.

No, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

I agree with you completely that it's an absolute travesty for the media or anyone else who lacks any real experience with skinhead culture and its history to try and paint all skinheads as White Supremacists, Christian Identity followers, Neo-Nazis, or Klansmen, or whatever else they try to do, but to say that they're not skinheads just because you don't like them is silly.

The defining characteristic of a skinhead is not "left wing beliefs" despite your wishful thinking. By this definition, I and everyone else on this forum would be considered a skinhead -- and skins who are apolitical (a lot of tradskins, for instance) wouldn't be. Skinhead culture encompasses a vast range of traits and characteristics, including stylistic ways of dressing, attitudes, music, etc.

"Working class beliefs" is certainly included in this, but that's an extraordinarily vague term. HIstorically, facism, and racism have been "working class ideas" and have had an unfortunate appeal to segments of the working class looking for a scapegoat for their problems ever since the working class as we know it existed, and then some. I'd even go so far as to wager to say that most hammerskins are from working class backgrounds.

WP skinheads share a history with other branches of skinheads, they share similar tastes in clothing and fashion, music, and the list goes on. They are, functionally, skinheads.

You can't just redraw a few borders in the definition here and there and define them out of existence.

The first step in taking down any enemy is to be honest to yourself about who they are.


I think the skinhead subculture, no matter what ideology it endorses, is really ugly and hedonist, focusing on partying, beer and clothes, like any other subculture but worse.

The fuck are you on about?

Define: "ugly", "hedonistic", and "skinhead subculture" (all very subjective and wide terms open to interpretation),

and prove:

A) That "skinhead culture" is "ugly",

B) That "skinhead culture" is "hedonistic",

C) That "skinhead culture" focuses on partying, beer, and clothes,

D) That being "ugly" is bad,

E) That being "hedonistic" is bad,

F) That partying is bad,

G) That beer is bad,

H) That fashion is bad,

and you just might have an argument.

(Or don't prove it; I can't say I'm all too excited to hear your justification for this neo-puritanical bullshit.)

[midnight marauder]

This is cool because there's a football team called the redskins

if you're an American, the "Redskins" name for sports teams comes from the outdated racial epithet for Native Americans, who's image was co-opted into sports and school mascots based on their stereotype as being savage, barbarous, vicious, and aggressive.

which is used all over the place, ranging from the subtle:

http://findthebesthere.com/washington_redskins_logo1030104.gif

to the obvious racism:

http://www.athlonsports.com/images/articles/Cleveland%20Indians10.png

[midnight marauder]

i think what Black Flag Rising meant was the overwhelming mainstream media negativity to this sub culture which to the mainstream media is synonymous with the racist white power thing and the fact that they dont bother to tell the real history of the sub culture which was a working class multicultural movement aimed at bringing together young british whites and immigrant jamaican blacks.

yes, and it's a shame that people still think that way! but his/her claim goes beyond this. in any event, this is really a semantical debate and does really amount to much, but none-the-less this thread just wreaks of the no true scotsman fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Cencus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 09:44 pm
But the fascist thing was not as late as 84, it was already happening by about 1980
By the early-mid 70s "paki-bashing" had already become a sport to many skins, both white and afro caribean.


Look at any old film of a Madness concert and you get a good idea of the skinhead culture if you look at the audience. Hi energy 12 year old skins.

Madness were actually racist in the days before signing up to 2-tone records but they were talked round by Terry Hall & co. I'll have a dig round my cd collection and try n find the interview where this is brought up, as it's not something that gets mentioned much.

[gilhyle]

My impression of the defining characteristic of skinhead culture was some vague sense of energy and independence ...... and I think thats how fascism got their claws into them.

[Dimentio]

Uh. I am simply stating a personal opinion. It is not so that I want to ban skinhead culture. I do not want to ban hiphop either, even though I dislike that music.

But I won't glorify it.

[Cencus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 05:41 pm
My impression of the defining characteristic of skinhead culture was some vague sense of energy and independence ...... and I think thats how fascism got their claws into them.
the defining charectoristic is more working class pride, but that can easily become national pride with the right stimuli, and that in turn fascism/nazism. Never forget that there is a long and persistant history in the working class for racism, and any movement that goes with working class pride runs the risk.

The skinhead movement is not inherantly racist, but by it's very nature is vunerable to racism.

I was at a Selector gig last year, one skin ziek hieled everyone on the way in, at the end of the night needless to say he got leathered. Never underestimate how stupid people can be :D

[midnight marauder]

i don't know if there is a such thing as a "defining characteristic" to skinhead culture. i mean, by definition, a culture or subculture is a collection of such defining characteristics.

but as i said on the last page, i completely agree with you on the role of racism, antisemitism, and religious bigotry and the working class: these bankrupt ideologies provide a much needed scapegoat (albeit a wildly inaccurate and extraordinarily harmful one) to certain segments of the disposed masses when they are in disparate need of an answer to their problems -- problems that aren't caused by race or whatever else people get in their heads, but that are ultimately caused by capitalism.


Uh. I am simply stating a personal opinion. It is not so that I want to ban skinhead culture. I do not want to ban hiphop either, even though I dislike that music.

i understood that, and there are certainly quite a few subcultures that don't personally fit my tastes. i just don't see the point in justifying that distaste with moralistic elitism.

if you're going to suggest that culture X is adjective Y, and that this is something to be frowned upon, you need to back that up with more than just blank assertions.

[Red October]

I used to believe that all skinheads were nazis, but that was when I was much younger. When the media is talking about violence by young nazis in America, they almost always refer to them as skinheads, so the image of "violent nazis = skinheads" gets built up in your mind.

[Cencus]

A lot of violent Nazis are skinheads, no doubt on that, but at the same time a lot of violent anti-nazi's are skins, but that side rarely gets covered. Most skins I've come across are fence sitters on the racism issue, but I'm sadto say I've come across more racist skins than racist skins in 20 years on the punk/ska scene and political activity.

[RASHskins]

So i will follow on from what i said earlier and say that skins of watever look just are associated with the right

I suggest you look up RASH (Red and Anarchist Skinheads).

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Black Flag Rising+September 06, 2007 03:16 am--> (Black Flag Rising @ September 06, 2007 03:16 am)
midnight [email protected] 04, 2007 09:55 pm
I don't really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don't like them doesn't mean they're not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.
Actually, that's inaccurate. The defining characteristic of Skinhead "culture" is working class, left wing beliefs. This completely contrasts to Nazism. Because they lack the entire idea of the movement, they can't be called skinheads. It's not really about the look, the boots, or the shaved head. They jsut wear shit like that to look proletarian, to represent the working class. [/b]
And a certain type of machismo? Or are there more relaxed (not sure what word is appropriate here) skinhead subcultures? Coz the whole skin thing (or at least my impression of it) seems to involve a lot of macho style bonding - a kind of tough, aggressive, manlyness thing.

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by Red-star-[email protected] 10, 2007 08:51 pm
I was on a bus the other day with my mate, who is a skinhead.....not a skinhead by culture...but just has a skinhead in general. He has a few tatts etc.. aswell so a mean looking skin ;)

We pulled up to some traffic lights and this other bloke knocked on the window and passed a leaflet through the open window flap of the bus.

It was a National Socialist Leaflet. Some boneheads who call themselves "the Britain first party" Anybody heard of them??

It was a shame though, especially after i had been reading this thread and then seen it first hand. So i will follow on from what i said earlier and say that skins of watever look just are associated with the right <_<
I&#39;ve never heard of them. They&#39;re probably a regional offshoot of one of the bigger far-right parties or something.

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+September 21, 2007 12:01 pm--> (bleeding gums malatesta &#064; September 21, 2007 12:01 pm)
Originally posted by Black Flag [email protected] 06, 2007 03:16 am

midnight [email protected] 04, 2007 09:55 pm
I don&#39;t really see how their not Skinheads. Just cause you don&#39;t like them doesn&#39;t mean they&#39;re not skinheads. Hitler is demonstrably not a socialist, but WP skinheads are definitionally a subculture of the skinhead subculture.
Actually, that&#39;s inaccurate. The defining characteristic of Skinhead "culture" is working class, left wing beliefs. This completely contrasts to Nazism. Because they lack the entire idea of the movement, they can&#39;t be called skinheads. It&#39;s not really about the look, the boots, or the shaved head. They jsut wear shit like that to look proletarian, to represent the working class.
And a certain type of machismo? Or are there more relaxed (not sure what word is appropriate here) skinhead subcultures? Coz the whole skin thing (or at least my impression of it) seems to involve a lot of macho style bonding - a kind of tough, aggressive, manlyness thing. [/b]
Though not all skins share it, a defining characteristic of a skinhead is somewhat aggresive behavior. This generally stems from the built up frustration and rage at the conditions they are forced to live in. As proletarians, they are disrespected so much that they develop a sort of aggresiveness toward anyone that shows any kind of disrespect to them. It&#39;s not common for skinheads to jump random people or start fights with people that they have had no contact with, it just usually takes very little for someone/something to trigger them.

[RedAnarchist]

Up until a few years ago, I was one of those people who though skinheads were rascist because most you see on television etc tend to be. Obviously I know better now.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)This generally stems from the built up frustration and rage at the conditions they are forced to live in. As proletarians, they are disrespected so much that they develop a sort of aggresiveness toward anyone that shows any kind of disrespect to them.[/b]

Ok, but most proles don&#39;t share this mentality?


fawkes
It&#39;s not common for skinheads to jump random people or start fights with people that they have had no contact with, it just usually takes very little for someone/something to trigger them.

And why does this frustration have to be channeled in a way that (seems at least) so preoccupied with machismo?

What are the positives of building a (sub)culture around that?

[spartan]

What is wrong with being macho? Would you rather we were all effeminate or something? (Not that i have a problem with that).

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by spartan+September 22, 2007 03:22 am--> (spartan &#064; September 22, 2007 03:22 am) What is wrong with being macho? [/b]
Where do i start?

You don&#39;t think hyper masculinity is a little... problematic?

&#39;Being macho&#39; reinforces the prototypical patriarchal man - that to be a &#39;man&#39; is to be strong and aggressive; to dominate others - often women (the gap between machismo and chauvinism is slight).

What do you think is &#39;right&#39; about being macho?


spartan
Would you rather we were all effeminate or something? (Not that i have a problem with that).

Why would you ask me a question like that if you didn&#39;t think that effeminacy was negative?

It&#39;s not as if putting &#39;not that i have a problem with that&#39; in brackets is going to make me forget that you just implied that effeminacy was undesirable; so what do you think is undesirable about effeminacy?

More importantly, why do you limit maleness to a choice between machismo and effeminacy?

Is this at all related to your admiration (?) of Sparta? (You never replied in that other thread... what exactly is the story behind your username? What links if any do you see between yourself and the Spartans?)

[Fawkes]

Being aggresive does not inherently make one machismo. I can be very aggresive if rubbed the wrong way, yet I have very effeminate aspects to me and am by no means machismo.


Ok, but most proles don&#39;t share this mentality?
Yes, I know, but the ones that do have united (somewhat) together to form a subculture.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+September 22, 2007 04:13 am--> (Fawkes &#064; September 22, 2007 04:13 am) Being aggresive does not inherently make one machismo. I can be very aggresive if rubbed the wrong way, yet I have very effeminate aspects to me and am by no means machismo.

[/b]

Sure, except skinhead culture seems to be built exclusively around this hyper masculinity - to the virulent exclusion of other less stereotypically macho conceptions of maleness.


Fawkes
Yes, I know, but the ones that do have united (somewhat) together to form a subculture.

I understand, but i guess i&#39;m trying to understand the positives of building a (sub)culture around aggro masculinity?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+September 21, 2007 01:23 pm--> (bleeding gums malatesta @ September 21, 2007 01:23 pm)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22, 2007 04:13 am
Being aggresive does not inherently make one machismo. I can be very aggresive if rubbed the wrong way, yet I have very effeminate aspects to me and am by no means machismo.



Sure, except skinhead culture seems to be built exclusively around this hyper masculinity - to the virulent exclusion of other less stereotypically macho conceptions of maleness.
[/b]
By no means was it solely built around aggresive behavior. A skinhead is defined by their clothing, music tastes, the fact that they&#39;re working class, and their lifestyle. As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.



Fawkes
Yes, I know, but the ones that do have united (somewhat) together to form a subculture.

I understand, but what are the positives of building a (sub)culture around that aggro masculinity?
You seem to be under the impression that aggresiveness is what defines a skinhead. The great thing about the skinhead culture is that it united/unites working class people of both sexes and all ethnicities into a relatively like-minded group. They are not united based on their "aggro masculinity" (aggresiveness does not always entail masculinity), but on the other factors I mentioned earlier.

[spartan]

bgm:
&#39;Being macho&#39; reinforces the prototypical patriarchal man - that to be a &#39;man&#39; is to be strong and aggressive; to dominate others - often women (the gap between machismo and chauvinism is slight).
I can understand where you are coming from with this reply but not all "macho" men are reinforces of patriarchy indeed that is an unfair generalization as aggressivness is not always the same as macho.

What do you think is &#39;right&#39; about being macho?
Nothing but i also dont see a problem with it that much either.

so what do you think is undesirable about effeminacy?
I have no problem with effeminacy i just dont see why macho men should stop being macho&#33; What right have you to tell them that?

More importantly, why do you limit maleness to a choice between machismo and effeminacy?
That was a genuine mistake for which i am sorry. I just wanted you to see that alot of men might like being macho just like alot of men like to be effeminate and that we should not have a problem with either.

Is this at all related to your admiration (?) of Sparta? (You never replied in that other thread... what exactly is the story behind your username? What links if any do you see between yourself and the Spartans?)
:lol: I do not admire the Spartans&#33; (Well they were good soldiers but that is another matter entirely) And i see no "links" between myself and the ancient Spartans&#33; It is just a user name i thought of and liked. Origionally i wanted something connected to the ancient rebel gladiator Spartacus but i could not have it for some reason so i thought why not Spartacus the Spartan (Though he was actually a Thracian i just thought they looked good toghether because the two terms sounded similar) but then i thought why not shorten it to simply spartan? And that is what i did. Honestly bgm you should not read too much into a username.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)By no means was it solely built around aggresive behavior.[/b]

I accept that there&#39;s more to being a skin than just being tough and manly - like you said, class, clothing and music play a part - but what other kind of behaviour is a strong focus of skin culture (specifically, the sorts of things that contradict this hyper masculine mentality)?



As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?


Originally posted by [email protected]
You seem to be under the impression that aggresiveness is what defines a skinhead.

By no means - i&#39;m more interested in the links between skin culture and traditional forms of (hyper) masculinity (of which aggressiveness is a part).


Fawkes

The great thing about the skinhead culture is that it united/unites working class people of both sexes and all ethnicities into a relatively like-minded group.

There are many female skins? And female skin groups?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+September 21, 2007 01:46 pm--> (bleeding gums malatesta @ September 21, 2007 01:46 pm)
Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)By no means was it solely built around aggresive behavior.[/b]

I accept that there&#39;s more to being a skin than just being tough and manly - like you said, class, clothing and music play a part - but what other kind of behaviour is a strong focus of skin culture (specifically, the sorts of things that contradict this hyper masculine mentality)?



As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?


[email protected]
You seem to be under the impression that aggresiveness is what defines a skinhead.

By no means - i&#39;m more interested in the links between skin culture and traditional forms of (hyper) masculinity (of which aggressiveness is a part).


Fawkes

The great thing about the skinhead culture is that it united/unites working class people of both sexes and all ethnicities into a relatively like-minded group.

There are many female skins? And female skin groups? [/b]
As far as effeminate behavior amongst skinheads I can&#39;t really give you a positive answer on because that&#39;s generally something that is different in each individual. Aggresive behavior is common, but skinheads still have other non-macho characteristics such as relationships with others (as in dating) where the male is not controlling.




As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?
I would say many, but obviously there is no definite number. As for the last question, I think it can be positive. A willingness to act out violently in certain situations is a very positive thing, it just depends on what triggers it and at whom it is directed.


There are many female skins? And female skin groups?
Certainly. A large portion of skinheads are female.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Spartan+--> (Spartan)but not all "macho" men are reinforces of patriarchy indeed that is an unfair generalization[/b]

Right, not all - just most? Considering that &#39;macho&#39; is defined as being an aggressive, domineering male - the link between macho and patriarchal behaviour is quite explicit

Perhaps, i would understand your POV better if you explained what you mean when you say &#39;macho&#39;? Because by any orthodox definition of the term &#39;macho&#39; such man are clearly reinforcing patriarchal norms of behaviour.


Originally posted by spartan+--> (spartan)
as aggressivness is not always the same as macho.[/b]

I didn&#39;t say that it was; rather the former is a part of the latter.


Originally posted by spartan
Nothing but i also dont see a problem with it that much either.

Really?

I mean, even reading the bourgeois dictionary, &#39;macho&#39; doesn&#39;t exactly sound too pleasant...


Originally posted by dictionary.com
ma·cho /ˈmɑtʃoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mah-choh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, noun, plural -chos.
–adjective
1. having or characterized by qualities considered manly, esp. when manifested in an assertive, self-conscious, or dominating way.
2. having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate.
–noun
3. assertive or aggressive manliness; machismo.
4. an assertively virile, dominating, or domineering male.

n. pl. ma·chos

1. Machismo.
2. A person characterized by or exhibiting machismo.

Machismo being defined as:

–noun
1. a strong or exaggerated sense of manliness; an assumptive attitude that virility, courage, strength, and entitlement to dominate are attributes or concomitants of masculinity.
2. a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate: The military campaign was an exercise in national machismo.



You don&#39;t see a problem with people "having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate"? Or people assuming that "virility, courage, strength, and entitlement to dominate are attributes or concomitants of masculinity"?


Originally posted by spartan
I have no problem with effeminacy

You could have fooled me.

I attacked the idea of a hyper &#39;macho&#39; masculinity and you replied by asking me if i would prefer that men were effeminate? As if effeminacy was a negative alternative, all that was missing was a :wacko: smiley at the end.

&#39;Like OMFG, what would you rather? That men were effeminate?&#33; :wacko: &#39;

I.E.


Originally posted by you
What is wrong with being macho? Would you rather we were all effeminate or something? (Not that i have a problem with that).

What else could you have been implying?

Please don&#39;t BS me around and pretend that that is not implied by your statement, coz frankly i&#39;m getting tired of you trying to avoid taking responsibility for your words.


Originally posted by spartan

i just dont see why macho men should stop being macho&#33;

I expressed my POV on this clearly in this post and my last; if you disagree please explain why.


[email protected]

What right have you to tell them that?

Huh? I don&#39;t have the &#39;right&#39; to think that being macho is negative? :huh:

Even if i explain WHY i think that rather than just stating my opinion and then refusing to explain my reasoning? <_<


spartan
I just wanted you to see that alot of men might like being macho just like alot of men like to be effeminate and that we should not have a problem with either.

And a lot of men &#39;like&#39; being chauvinist pigs, and yes - of course &#39;we&#39; should have a problem with that.

A part of being a revolutionary leftist (you are one of these correct?) is opposing sexism and the oppression of women; not accepting the values proscribed to us by the society we wish to abolish... or defending the &#39;right&#39; of men to be macho (that is, aggressive and domineering).

[Fawkes]

I would just like to point out, bgm, that I agree with what you are saying to spartan.

[Black Dagger]

Don&#39;t worry Fawkes; i didn&#39;t take your defence of skin culture as a defence of patriarchal conceptions of masculinity ;)

[Bazza]

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 10:14 am
Madness were actually racist in the days before signing up to 2-tone records but they were talked round by Terry Hall & co. I&#39;ll have a dig round my cd collection and try n find the interview where this is brought up, as it&#39;s not something that gets mentioned much.
Madness weren&#39;t racist. Well, not the whole band as sax player Lee Thompson is left wing. However, lead singer Suggs was linked with the right wing due to his friend ship with skrewdriver singer Ian Stuart. Ian Stuart was a lodger at Suggs mums house and Suggs even got him a roll in the Madness film &#39;Take It Or Leave It&#39;. It has also been said that Suggs was a member of the British Movement before Madness made it big.

[Marxist]

well , you are right with the original 60s skinheads , but in some countries (i live in Slovakia) there are 2 skinhead organisations - one is openly neo-nazi and the second is racist-ultra-right so people quite commonise the mark : shaved head - fascist

[A-S M.]

http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2003/11/antifa.jpgeef3k1.jpgmid.jpg

[Marxist]

why is the black flag in front of the red one?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 10:44 am
why is the black flag in front of the red one?
Don&#39;t look too much into it, it&#39;s just a logo.

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 03:44 pm
why is the black flag in front of the red one?
because anarchists have more fun? : :P just kidding, nah don&#39;t really know why, it&#39;s not really that important i guess

and for the person who said something about tradskin and the apolitic shit, if you&#39;re an apolitic "skinhead" you&#39;re no skin in my eyes, as a skin you have to defend your culture and fight the nazi and racist scum out of the scene, i&#39;m not saying you have to be a leftist, but you certainly can&#39;t be a right winger

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by Fawkes+October 13, 2007 07:57 pm--> (Fawkes @ October 13, 2007 07:57 pm)
[email protected] 13, 2007 10:44 am
why is the black flag in front of the red one?
Don&#39;t look too much into it, it&#39;s just a logo. [/b]
i dont know about your local antifas, but in germany its not "just a logo" but which color is in front is representing which ideology the antifa comes from.

[Revolucija]

That&#39;s stupid. I know that a standard logo looks like this (http://www.naturfreundejugend.info/nrw/bilder/antifa.jpg). I think that even better would be a smashing-swastika logo.

Ontopic; it&#39;s very important to note a traditional skinhead culture, which wasn&#39;t apolitical and actually that is the first thing to associate with a word "skinhead". And it definitely can&#39;t be racist or fascist.

I&#39;m writing an article about skinhead subculture for one popular Serbian magazine; going to post it in serbian section when it gets finished.

[AAFCE]

I myself have a shaved head atm, and it gets annoying going around town and random people "sieg heil&#39;ing" me..

Meh

[PRC-UTE]

it wasn&#39;t fascist in its origins, no, but I&#39;d say that some of the trappings of skinhead culture, the machismo and regimentation lent itself well to fascism.

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28, 2007 07:18 pm
I myself have a shaved head atm, and it gets annoying going around town and random people "sieg heil&#39;ing" me..

Meh
Im probbly a redskin, got the shaved head and taste of music down, but random people still pull the skinhead fascist shit on me; i just reply &#39;im middle eastern cockhead.&#39; its usually how i make new friends.

I think one of the other misconceptions is that in other european/asian countries long hair has been associated with the hippie culture, whilst shaved heads symbolize a more military scene promoted by fascists officially and on mass scales. I know that in Turkey having a shaved head means two of the following, per social stigma; A) You escaped conscription, or your an army student B) your a fascist. In Aus its more broad, open minded, but generally ignorant people will assume your a neo-nazi thanks to popular media.

We don&#39;t have redskin culture properly and the Istanbul Skinheads (Anti-Nazis) are a bunch of posers who don&#39;t have a clue about their own origins. Go figure...

[Fawkes]

Question: what&#39;s the origin of the Trojan helmet for SHARPs? Why is that logo used?

[jaffe]

Question: what&#39;s the origin of the Trojan helmet for SHARPs? Why is that logo used?
trojan is a recordlabel that released a lot of crucial ska and reggae lp&#39;s.

http://trojanrecords.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Records

[socialistpunk]

This might get treated like a no brainer reply but i thought they got the trojan thing from the brand of condoms :blush: but i now know its from a record label

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by RaiseYourVoice+October 15, 2007 11:39 am--> (RaiseYourVoice @ October 15, 2007 11:39 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13, 2007 07:57 pm

[email protected] 13, 2007 10:44 am
why is the black flag in front of the red one?
Don&#39;t look too much into it, it&#39;s just a logo.
i dont know about your local antifas, but in germany its not "just a logo" but which color is in front is representing which ideology the antifa comes from. [/b]
Marxist: there&#39;s your answer I guess.