Making Us Big! - How do we build a Mass Movement?

[The Feral Underclass]

I have been discussing how a revolution must happen with some other comrades. We agreed that a revolution can only happen using a mass movement of conscious organized workers.

The problem that we faced was that, how do you build a mass movement of workers.

I had an idea...the problem the left faces, other than disunity, is lack of funds. In order to build a mass movement, you must have money. Therefore, could the movment invest in profit making business? Such as a farm or record label. You could buy a farm, create a small commune and produce goods which could be sold. The commune would be democratic of course and the finances would be used solely for other projects. This could be replicated for anything.

When the money started to come in, you could start social initiatives in working class areas. Free Child care centres, services for the disabled. Building of community centres for teenagers with members of the movement running it.

In theory, this would then grow to a national level, with a netweork of business and social schemes. This would then create an interest from people. People would want to know who we where. They would apporoach the movement to find out more and evntually you would have people who wanted to learn. you could use money to set up universities, run by the movement to politcise people.

After 30 years the network of business, schemes, universities, media coverage would create a movement so strong, that people would know our name everywhere, whether they believed in our values or not.

The movement would have to start small, with a small buiness, which may take years to start generating money, but once it did, we could invest in other business like cafes and resturants, creating more money and it would branch out further and further and further as the movement grew in membership and finances.

Do you think this is a realistic idea? if not why? and are there any other alternatives?

[elijahcraig]

I think we should get away from the investing in business thing, but we do need funds from somewhere. Mass movements are based more on ideas than actions. Take Chomsky. He is an example of someone who has put out more ideas into the world than anyone, anyone radical that is. He has spread the movement.

I've always wanted to build something based on the Black Panther Party. A place for people to come if they are in need, like the Black Panthers did with the black communities.

I'm not sure about funds.

[Kez]

LC, the question which you have brought us is very very very important and shows that you are thinking in a consious manner bringing it up.

However your methods of money raising are edging on the eccentric, having sed that i have often thought of breakdancing to pay for money for the organisation! hehe

I think the ideas you have are very mechanical eg in 30 times we have enuf money or whatever. This does not take into account of what the economy is like then. If its in a boom period, then it dont matter if ur a billioniare, ur really not gonna get anywhere.

However this is what i believe.
We must enter every mass organisation there is, be it in Uni, Trade Union, Political Party etc.
Once we enter these parties we must use its structures to push for our goals. eg in a trade union, we wud get enuf support through discussion circles, boot the right wing (as is the case in Britain right now) put in place a socialist TU leader and call for socialist demands. This process can take 2-3 years for all, which is ten times quicker than ur (im not trtying to rip your ideas comraded) methods. At the same time, we have in control of us the workers! and their funds! and with these we can call a simple general strike and with a bit of fighting overthrow capitalism!

comrade kamo

[The Feral Underclass]

We must enter every mass organisation there is, be it in Uni, Trade Union, Political Party etc.
Once we enter these parties we must use its structures to push for our goals.

I agree that this is important but do you not think that we concerntrate to much on this kind of tactic. Do you not think that it is important to concentrate on education, rather than attempting to build ourselves up within these organizations. Which are often dominated by bourgeois elemants, on the right and left.

I think it is important for us to build an outside movement, with the top priority of education. Mass class consciousness will lead to a revolution, that is inevitable. Obviously, the bourgeois will still attempt to undermine us, but what is important is that we are building a different kind of movement. A movement which relates directly to working class people. A movement that concetrates its entire efforts to literally helping the workers. Things like building community centres, repairing roofs on schools because the council can't or wont do it. Setting up free child care for working class mothers who can not afford to send their children to nurseries. Paying for perscriptions. A kind of movement which says to the capitalists, if you wont help the workers, we will.

The black panthers held breakfasts for children at schools because there parents could not afford food. They had neighbour hood watches to protect black youths from the police. We could start initiatives that dont necesserally apprehend criminals, but set up schemes to help criminals, and make the comminties aware of why these things happen.

Once the movement was big enough, we could start universities, which could send workers free of charge to study marx etc and foundation and advanced level. These universities could teach in organization, they could itrain agents to go to other countries to help set up movements like this. They could have funds to do it. The bolsheviks had training schools in france, why can our movment not do this.

Who knows, once we where big enough, and it was succesful, we could form a new international of revolutionary movements, create one workers solidarity movement and spread it across the globe.

If we created good money generating business then it could take no time at all. Of course it wont be easy and it will take time to make an effect on people, but i think with the right kind of people it could work. I think it is good that you think these idead are eccentic, it makes me feel confident that it could work.

[sc4r]

I agree pretty much 100% with you LC. I'm all in favour of gradually aquiring the power that capital gives to dictate events, for ourselves.

I dont see any insurmountable practical problem at all. The articles of COMMIEMOVEMENT Ltd might have to be very carefully written to prevent it ever becoming just another exploitative biusiness enterprise or falling under the control of a cadre but I cannot believe we could not do this with a little ingenuity.

It gives us an additional front and hopefully provides at the same time some hard evidence that we are serious and capable to anyone who might feel tempted to join.

I think it's a great idea.

[redstar2000]

I knew a "left group" once that managed to acquire a very expensive printing press...on credit.

Their idea was simple: they would bid on commercial printing jobs and, because it would be members of the group volunteering to do most of the work, they'd be able to underbid other commercial printers. When the money started coming in, they'd then be able to finance their own left printing projects.

Well, perhaps you can imagine the outcome: nobody wanted to volunteer for the commercial jobs and everyone wanted to get in on the political stuff.

They did get to keep their press (turned out one of their members inherited a big chunk of money on his 21st birthday and paid off the loan)...but they never made any significant money off commercial work.

The suggestion that leftists can somehow find something "not too awful" to do that will be a commercial success and raise money for the movement pops up periodically; but even when the attempt is actually made, it rarely (never?) succeeds in a significant way.

Why? Because we don't like business. We don't have the built-in motivation that capitalists have...we don't see the world through "currency-colored" glasses.

Where does the money in the left come from? It comes from the most committed participants...people take it out of their own paychecks and instead of spending it on some useless crap, give it freely to the political group of their choice---sometimes in surprising amounts.

It's never enough, of course, and I've known some lefties who buy a lottery ticket every week with the hope of instantly raising millions of dollars for their favorite group(s). What they would do if they ever actually won the jackpot is another question, of course.

Actually, it takes very little money to build a "mass movement" for anything. Why? Because masses build movements, not small groups.

The reason a small group "gets big" is because what it has to say "resonates" with huge numbers of people...it provides a voice for large numbers of people who hither-to have been left out of public discourse. (And when "the masses" enter a small group and "make it their own", it can become an altogether different and more radical group than the founders intended.)

As far as I know, there is no "magic recipe" for building a mass movement, no formula that you can faithfully follow and will deliver the desired result. The masses decide and their decisions have been, up to now, unpredictable.

Spending large sums of money can create the appearance of a mass movement...especially if you can acquire or purchase support in the mainstream media. But this rules out any sort of radical politics; the capitalist media will "under-publicize" your efforts and freely lie about you to boot.

At the present time, there are literally thousands of small groups involved in one sense or another in the anti-globalization movement and the world-wide movement against U.S. imperialism. Within and between these groups, people are (slowly or quickly) "connecting the dots"--learning that the common enemy is ultimately capitalism.

None of these groups has any serious money...but what they have to say resonates...and they grow. No one knows "how it will play out", but I would not be surprised if 21st century communism--as opposed to the old Leninist formulas--dates its birth from these struggles.

Assuming, of course, that some of the small groups involved in this stuff are modern communists.

:cool:

[StRiKeR]

Libertarian Commie you have the right idea.in order to get a big movement we need the poepel to belive in us.by showing them that this cause is for nothing.one we have cizitens willing to help us then we have a stable ground.
anyone understanding what im trying to say.

but i think if we want to fight the system and the poepel who with it to me i think it will never happen-remeber we are not in a hispanic country where ther are forests and small villages and the goovernmant only send smalle units-u.s is a hard country to break down-but it is still breakable-if i got off -topic sorry(very sorry)

[Nick Yves]

Well, I think there needs to be a more commerical communist party. I mean, who here is actually a member of one? And if they are, I doubt that ONE is the majority. The problem is that they arent united...It would be good if there was like, one MAJOR party, and everyone just flocked to that. And everyone who joined willingly payed 10 dollars or even more. There would be demonstrations, and in those demonstrations if they sold stuff they could raise money.

One idea I had was to, if you raised enough money, make a huge documentary film. It may sound silly, but people can be persuaded very easily if they are just sat down and told everything. While eating popcorn.

[Kez]

wtf?

Re: LC
"Do you not think that it is important to concentrate on education, rather than attempting to build ourselves up within these organizations. Which are often dominated by bourgeois elemants, on the right and left."
The only way to educate is through an organisation, only an organisation can raise the funds and establish contacts and comradees acorss the region without overlapping other peoples efforts in an anarchic way in which you seem to be heading towards

"I think it is important for us to build an outside movement, with the top priority of education. Mass class consciousness will lead to a revolution, that is inevitable."
How can you achieve mass class consciousness if your not IN the mass organisations/movement? seems contradictory, just doesnt fit

Your schemes although all very nice and cute, arent gonna change anything. Maybe you can do this in your spare time and be nice and everything, but why put so much effort into buildin a roof, when you can make disucssion groups with a 1000 workers in a single company? Its not cost/time/effort effective...

The same applies with your black panther example...

"Once the movement was big enough, we could start universities, which could send workers free of charge to study marx etc and foundation and advanced level"
- Well this is already being done! A couple of examples would be the Socialism 2003 and Marxism 2003, its already being done. The trouble is who is saying the most correct theory which would be possible to apply?

"Who knows, once we where big enough, and it was succesful, we could form a new international of revolutionary movements, create one workers solidarity movement and spread it across the globe."
- WTF?? these internationals are already in place. there are many of them, its all around you!

"If we created good money generating business then it could take no time at all. Of course it wont be easy and it will take time to make an effect on people, but i think with the right kind of people it could work. I think it is good that you think these idead are eccentic, it makes me feel confident that it could work."
- What is to suggest these businesses wont fail? Who is to run them? why would i wanna sell coffee when i should be out there agitating the workers??

Re: RedStar
Bang on except the last bit, was a bit strange, since what you said lenin would have agreed with...

Re: Striker
It doesnt matter how rich the govt is, if the people believe it in then the govt can do jack shit

Re: Jetgrind
ITs all aright to unite etc etc, but unite behind what? a popular front? thats bullshit and shud never be repeated again. The group i joined, i pay £10 a month to it, and we sell books and pamphlets etc. But as Redstar ses its not the money but the theory and how as he correctly put it "resonates" with the people. If what we have to say strikes a chord with the workers then it doesnt matter that we make 1p

In anycase, once you have a party with a workers outlook and makeup, the workers will quite comfortably pay the money and it will easily come in as i found out in a recent discussion group i held

The idea of the video is a good one, and there are many around. I personally have been suggesting this ideea to my tendency, and we shall see how this progresses

[The Feral Underclass]

oh...well, so we went from nice conscious ideas which you insisted on not undermining to usless puppy like fantasies i shouldnt spend any time thinking about. All in the space of twenty four hours. Quite an impressive utun in policy.

I wasnt aware of any internationals, but they arent having much of an effect on anything. Why is this?

And how exactly do you plan on getting inside these organizations and speaking to 1000 workers. Do you not think that revolutionary parties try this already, to little success. A revolutionary organization couldnt organize a mass meeting inside a work place, thats just not going to happen.

Workers will only come and listen to one of these meetings if they where interested in politics, or semi interested in politics. Most workers just want to go home and put therefeet up infront of eastenders and eat their pie and chips (no stereotype intented). No one cares about revolutioanry politics, and there certainly not interested in coming and listening to some bloke with a funny beard and reminds them of a hippy. There not going to sit through hours of theory because you came to their workplace. They will just think your mad.

Marxism 2003 isntr a university, it is a gathering to discuss theory issues. i am talking about a full time university with a faculty and students with year long courses.

My idea may take years, but consciousness does take years. And no one said it would happen in a few months.

[Kez]

do you have ANY idea about what your talking about?

Why do internationals not have a big effect? how would you know? there are many working in unions right now that are striking left right and centre and pushing for change.
1 reason maybe the collapse of stalinism and the disorientation of the left
another reason maybe the fact that the left is so fragmented it cannot make any huge impression

I didnt say meetings, i said discussion groups. This means in small groups. Like was the case in Russian factories. As for it not happening, i did, 2day, went to local fire station and startnig discussing. Im sorry if i didnt send u a personal report of what went on though, my apologies....

The reasoning that workers dont care is bollox. People care when their material/economic conditions make them do so. If someone is hit by redundancy fuck me they care! Without seeming like boasting, but a comrade of mine from our tendency went to Firefighters during strike, and within 10 mins of discussion, the firefighter unprovoked started calling for socialist govt!!
dont be fooled by bourgeoise media comrade, there is hope!!

I take your point about universities, but what are the difficulties gonna be? ie raising cost, speakers etc To me discussions ARE universities, simply they are versatile and cost effective, u can move anywhere, u cant move a building

[Communist Superhero]

do you have ANY idea about what your talking about?

No, eveidently not, hence the thread. I apologise. I was thinking more along the lines that I hadnt seen it have much effect on anything. Obviously that dosnt mean that it isnt.

I didnt say meetings, i said discussion groups. This means in small groups. Like was the case in Russian factories. As for it not happening, i did, 2day, went to local fire station and startnig discussing. Im sorry if i didnt send u a personal report of what went on though, my apologies....

Unfortunantly this is not 1917 russia. Our oppression is far subtler. No less oppressive, but we are not living under a aristocratic despot. This is 21st century Britain we are talking about. The age of pubs and playstations. Discussion groups are a great idea. But how would you get into the work place to organize something like that? And what did happen in your discussion group?


The reasoning that workers dont care is bollox. People care when their material/economic conditions make them do so. If someone is hit by redundancy fuck me they care! Without seeming like boasting, but a comrade of mine from our tendency went to Firefighters during strike, and within 10 mins of discussion, the firefighter unprovoked started calling for socialist govt!!
dont be fooled by bourgeoise media comrade, there is hope!!

The firefirghters are going through a viscious pay dispute and have been striking, of course they are more perceptive to alternative ideas. However the firefighters are not going to win us a revolution by themselves. Many people who I have come into contact, average working class people are angry at the firefighters demands. Dont get me wrong, there is huge support for them, or was when I was involved in collecting money for them, but most workers can only identify with the fact that they are demanding more money when they hardly get any.

I am sure that workers care when they get redundant, but that dosnt mean that they are going to suddenly become revolutionaries, and holding these discussion meetings isnt going to convince them. What would convince them is if the movement helped these redundant workers with food shopping, or helped them find work. Making them feel apart of something.

I am not being brainwashed by the media, I am seeing it with my own eyes. Sure discussion meetings are all fine and well, and I think are a crusial part of building a movement. but it isnt enough. People want to see action. They want to see a movement actually taking the time to care about real life things, not just things like the firefighters dispute, which dosnt effect directly alot of people, but actual things like having to find child care, working three jobs to put clothes on your kids back. Having to pay extortionate amounts of rent. These are some of the things that affect the workers everyday, and this is what keeps them oppressed. Working class people are too busy suriving to be bothered with discussion groups. We need somthing bigger?

I take your point about universities, but what are the difficulties gonna be? ie raising cost, speakers etc To me discussions ARE universities, simply they are versatile and cost effective, u can move anywhere, u cant move a building

No, indeed you can not move a building, but the point of it would be for people to educate themselves full time. There was a MArxist university in Denmark in the 70's which was extremyl popular. The idea would be for a place for comrades to come together and share their ideas etc full time.

[Kez]

wtf, waste my fuckin time....

so your saying if a worker beocmes redundant, and is exposed to marxism, he still isnt gonna do anything, BUT give him food handouts on a shitty little wankpot farm is gonna make him a revolutionary, u r seriously fuckeed, and i hope the you are a fair representation of the SWP, coz if u are, no1 needs give a shit about you.

later, i gtg to my commune farm, coz there is a factory closing, i gtg donate food to them, so there can be commie revolution.....thats after i sell 200 copied of the socialist wanker to him of course, recruit him and then boot him outta the party for going against party line.

Also, i love your signature, fuckin irony at its best, when you employ stalinist tacticts against a stalinist, BECAUSE theyre stalinist, fuckin brilliant...

[Iepilei]

to hell with the party. a group of pompus windbags who've yet to create any successful revolution in any nation since the early 1900s.

the second you establish a 'communist' party you create two things: 1) a heirarchy and 2) a target.

you don't need a party to start a movement. haven't you learned anything in your whole escapade of reading Marx? our victory will be inevitable.

so where do we begin? education. thought-bomb the place. you have to attack the emotional structures of every man, woman, and child. you must get them to recognise the pain in which they, and others, must suffer. and you must get them to place blame not on themselves, or "bad luck", or "sin". the blame must be cast on those who pull the strings.

you must spread the ideology into the minds of every child. they must break the temptation of material possessions imposed on them by the capitalists. they must realise that possessions are not the end-all-be-all. they must realise there is a world out there. a world that lives, and breathes. one outside of the television.

[Kez]

all very nice and cudly and funky mate, but who then is gonna direct the shots? who will direct the mobilised forces? who will collect the funds into one account to be able to leaflet and produce books? it cannot be done individually....

As for hierarchy, what bullshit is that?
And the fact that the victory is inevitable simply means that revolution will come out due to the contradictions of capitalism, however, it will come down to a revolution, not simply passing of time, and a successful revolution can only come about from an organised force.

Think of the analogy of the fist, together compact it can smash, with 5 finger it can do sweet fuck all...

[Xprewatik RED]

It is simple. What is needed is a organized organization, and powerful leaders.

Leaders, that with their voice can make the blood swell.
Leaders, that when they speak make you want to change everything.

Print Works are needed, or at least massive printing capabilities. Printing pamflets for the workers. A powerful speaker must go to the factories.
There must be meeetings in the univertsites.
Everywhere the party must spread its views.
It must be on the internet, the T.V, the streets, the newspapers, in a sense everywhere. Communists must get into the media, for doing something helpful. Whether it be a group building an orphanage, or organizing a strike. A great network must be formed. Linking all the factories in a nation as one. Calling a strike all together. Workers must together refuse to work.
There can be no more talk. Talk ended decades ago. YOU KNOW what you have to do. You need not search for the courage, you must go out NOW and change EVERYTHING. Forums are great, your local Communist party is even better.

[Kez]

Red, along with the leadaers we need complete and utter party democracy, without the democracy that party is not a leninist party.

However i agree with you on the organised organisations bit, it is vital that we have such organisation.

Although i dont agree with your CP point, we must enter the correct party, not just because it has the name COMMUNIST in it...

[Iepilei]

we don't need a damn party. the working class does not have to bind itself to any one party. the cause, is what unites us. our dedication will be what steers us.

i don't need a damn leader who sits on some high-horse to tell me what needs to be done. i need people willing to get in the mix, and people willing to seek out information. the second we put our hopes into the arms of a leader is the second we throw away the liberation of the workers in their entirety.

One man will not save humanity. Get those Christ-tales out of here.

[Kez]

wtf....why do ppl keep repeating their same arguments instead of explaining, fuckin tiresome to reply to....

"but who then is gonna direct the shots? who will direct the mobilised forces? who will collect the funds into one account to be able to leaflet and produce books? it cannot be done individually"
please answer the above

also as a simple case answer me this
"if you have 1000 people and a building to occupy how do you go about it? get everyone to do their own thing?" fuckin drop the dreamy bollocks and get real

[Xprewatik RED]

Although i dont agree with your CP point, we must enter the correct party, not just because it has the name COMMUNIST in it...

I know the correct, party must be found.
And its organizers(key thing) must be honest people dedicated to the liberation of the people, NOT personal power.
Thus the Leninist party and other formers of people-oppressing governments must be eliminated along with the capitalists.

A network must be layed now. NOW.... A web of
Armories
Print works
Radio Staions
TV stations
Large numbers of motorized vehicles
Air capabilities( to sneak people in or out quikly)
Housing
Computer facilities, and major hacking abilities
etc...just to name a few
No more waiting for the time of action, bring about the time of action and there will be no more waiting...

Iepilei
People like you keep the revolution in its infants stages. The worker will do nothing without a leader. Look at history there has never been a revolution without a leader. Because people will always be confused, a leader must be on the front line and for the time of the revolution, calling the shots. Without this the workers will always be the toys of their masters. Squirming in their hands.


(Edited by Xprewatik RED at 1:40 pm on July 14, 2003)