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Freigemachten
2nd September 2007, 11:07
I've been considering the nature of philosophy lately and what it means. What I'm coming to is that one starts with a premise, from that premise, one then argues logically and reasonably until an end assumption is made. This is true of the Marxist philosophy all the way back to the Greeks. As an example, the Greek philosophers took as a premise, all things are made of fundamental parts. From there it was reasoned out that there were elements in nature which made up all things, e.g. fire, air, earth, etc, it logically followed that people were made of all of these things, then come about religious ideas that agree with this, simply because it follows in a somewhat logical sense.

My problem with philosophy comes in this; what is the process for the validation of the premise? Yes, it can be logically reached as reasonable, but as has been demonstrated to me recently (in so much detail and such convoluted logic, I couldn't wish to repeat it) with the right assumed premise, people can fly without mechanical aid and we will all live forever. I can come to nothing but the fact that philosophy and reason are not enough.

What are the potential alternatives? In this same demonstration of the failure of logic, other means of obtaining knowledge were demonstrated. Some are immediately dismisable, such as "authority" which is knowing things simply because others have said it is known, or by "tenacity" which is knowing something simply because it has always been known (gravity, existence and such). Clearly, inadequate. Next comes what is refered to as 'Commonsense' but is really only empiricism, observation. Using the senses to obtain knowledge. However, as is demonstrated by illusionists, the senses can be tricked.

What are we left with?

Simply put, we are left with science. Back in the day, philosophers were the scientists of their time, though instead of experimenting, they followed logic and reason. As experimentation began to disprove logic and reason, as well as tenacity and authority, it became more widely accepted. My point essentially is that logic and philosophy have any place in logical society because they have been replaced with actual science.

Hegemonicretribution
2nd September 2007, 12:33
What is the validation for any true premise? It seems like you are perhaps attacking foundationlism here, although I am not sure...

However when you say "We are left with science"..... What exactly is science (enter philosophy to answer). Science is favourable when compared to hard (and I mean hard) rationailsm or empiricism, but the scientific process cannot be entirely divorced from reason or observation (it is dependent upon them).

When you apply your approach to a premise there is a manner in which science can avoid the trappings of other approaches you highlighted; that is by using falsification. By not starting with (or intending to maintain) a hard and fast premise, and instead dealing with the outcome first, altering the premise accordingly; you can sidestep some of the problems relating to attatching a "necessary end" to a fixed premise.

However there must be a premise somewhere, even if you start from the premise of scientific approach....all the same questions come up again I am afraid. Science cannot be fully divorced from philosophy.

Freigemachten
2nd September 2007, 12:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:33 am
What is the validation for any true premise? It seems like you are perhaps attacking foundationlism here, although I am not sure...

However when you say "We are left with science"..... What exactly is science (enter philosophy to answer). Science is favourable when compared to hard (and I mean hard) rationailsm or empiricism, but the scientific process cannot be entirely divorced from reason or observation (it is dependent upon them).

When you apply your approach to a premise there is a manner in which science can avoid the trappings of other approaches you highlighted; that is by using falsification. By not starting with (or intending to maintain) a hard and fast premise, and instead dealing with the outcome first, altering the premise accordingly; you can sidestep some of the problems relating to attatching a "necessary end" to a fixed premise.

However there must be a premise somewhere, even if you start from the premise of scientific approach....all the same questions come up again I am afraid. Science cannot be fully divorced from philosophy.
Good good, you touched on some of the things I really wanted to get to, but unfortunatley forgot in the original post.

Science exactly what you said it cannot be divorced from, observation and logic combined. Science is the establishment of a premise, followed by observing a testable phenomenon, then logically accepting or rejecting the premise.

What you discuss as falsification is the process by which science surpasses mere reason. Experimentation. Fundamentally it means that a premise can be falsified and thus rejected.

I would not at all like to suggest that science be divorced from philosophy, simply that philosophy complete the evolutionary process completely into science.


Edit

PS. I remembered from RA that you were a bit of a philosopher and was very excited when I saw that you had replied.

rouchambeau
3rd September 2007, 04:47
There are premises which do not require some other premise.

Next.

Volderbeek
6th September 2007, 05:45
It really all depends on how you're defining all these things. Can science explain everything? Maybe so, but to make that assumption requires more than just science. Science usually takes a strong agnosticist approach (which means that they are actually using philosophy but are unconscious of it). This leaves the door wide open for spiritualists. Without philosophy, science has no way of countering these claims to understand that which transcends scientific knowledge at any given point.

Freigemachten
6th September 2007, 06:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 04:45 am
It really all depends on how you're defining all these things. Can science explain everything? Maybe so, but to make that assumption requires more than just science. Science usually takes a strong agnosticist approach (which means that they are actually using philosophy but are unconscious of it). This leaves the door wide open for spiritualists. Without philosophy, science has no way of countering these claims to understand that which transcends scientific knowledge at any given point.
What claims? A spiritualist can claim to a scientist that there is a God, the scientist can respond that that is not a testable hypothosis, therefore, no theory is possible, no validation is possible, it is not true. Science has a place for such claims, it's called a trashcan.

Volderbeek
6th September 2007, 09:35
Originally posted by Freigemachten+September 06, 2007 01:18 am--> (Freigemachten @ September 06, 2007 01:18 am)
[email protected] 06, 2007 04:45 am
It really all depends on how you're defining all these things. Can science explain everything? Maybe so, but to make that assumption requires more than just science. Science usually takes a strong agnosticist approach (which means that they are actually using philosophy but are unconscious of it). This leaves the door wide open for spiritualists. Without philosophy, science has no way of countering these claims to understand that which transcends scientific knowledge at any given point.
What claims? A spiritualist can claim to a scientist that there is a God, the scientist can respond that that is not a testable hypothosis, therefore, no theory is possible, no validation is possible, it is not true. Science has a place for such claims, it's called a trashcan. [/b]
Why does God have to be a theory? To make such a claim, you have to resort to philosophy; in this case, positivism. Theists believe in God, they don't know God's real through the testing of hypotheses.

Freigemachten
6th September 2007, 12:09
Originally posted by Volderbeek+September 06, 2007 08:35 am--> (Volderbeek @ September 06, 2007 08:35 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:18 am

[email protected] 06, 2007 04:45 am
It really all depends on how you're defining all these things. Can science explain everything? Maybe so, but to make that assumption requires more than just science. Science usually takes a strong agnosticist approach (which means that they are actually using philosophy but are unconscious of it). This leaves the door wide open for spiritualists. Without philosophy, science has no way of countering these claims to understand that which transcends scientific knowledge at any given point.
What claims? A spiritualist can claim to a scientist that there is a God, the scientist can respond that that is not a testable hypothosis, therefore, no theory is possible, no validation is possible, it is not true. Science has a place for such claims, it's called a trashcan.
Why does God have to be a theory? To make such a claim, you have to resort to philosophy; in this case, positivism. Theists believe in God, they don't know God's real through the testing of hypotheses. [/b]
Which is exactly why God is not science and is not a theory, because theists believe, they don't know through experimentation. Which goes back to why it is not science. Since it is not science, it allows a false premise to exist, and is therefore an inadequate means of obtaining information.

Volderbeek
10th September 2007, 08:50
Originally posted by Freigemachten+September 06, 2007 07:09 am--> (Freigemachten @ September 06, 2007 07:09 am)
Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 08:35 am

Originally posted by [email protected] 06, 2007 01:18 am

[email protected] 06, 2007 04:45 am
It really all depends on how you're defining all these things. Can science explain everything? Maybe so, but to make that assumption requires more than just science. Science usually takes a strong agnosticist approach (which means that they are actually using philosophy but are unconscious of it). This leaves the door wide open for spiritualists. Without philosophy, science has no way of countering these claims to understand that which transcends scientific knowledge at any given point.
What claims? A spiritualist can claim to a scientist that there is a God, the scientist can respond that that is not a testable hypothosis, therefore, no theory is possible, no validation is possible, it is not true. Science has a place for such claims, it's called a trashcan.
Why does God have to be a theory? To make such a claim, you have to resort to philosophy; in this case, positivism. Theists believe in God, they don't know God's real through the testing of hypotheses.
Which is exactly why God is not science and is not a theory, because theists believe, they don't know through experimentation. Which goes back to why it is not science. Since it is not science, it allows a false premise to exist, and is therefore an inadequate means of obtaining information. [/b]
Yes, of course it's not science. That's my point. Saying that science is the only meaningful way to gain knowledge is where you're using philosophy. You can't use science to make that claim.

Guifes
11th September 2007, 22:22
My problem with philosophy comes in this; what is the process for the validation of the premise? Yes, it can be logically reached as reasonable, but as has been demonstrated to me recently (in so much detail and such convoluted logic, I couldn't wish to repeat it) with the right assumed premise, people can fly without mechanical aid and we will all live forever. I can come to nothing but the fact that philosophy and reason are not enough.

What makes you think people can't fly without mechanical aid and don't live forever? Is that a premise or an observation perhaps? In both cases you could be as wrong as the person who proved these things to you.

Rosa Lichtenstein
11th September 2007, 22:55
G:


What makes you think people can't fly without mechanical aid and don't live forever? Is that a premise or an observation perhaps? In both cases you could be as wrong as the person who proved these things to you.

Since the alternative on offer is far less certain than what it seeks to challenge, and the latter is based on things far more certain still, that alternative itself could never win assent from of anyone other than the mentally ill, or the terminally disputatious.