RIM

[Thunderbird]

You think they haven't figured this out? They probably know they aren't going to win the presidency, but they also know that elections can be vehicles for agitprop.

I fail to see how – considering the resources that goes into running for an election – it could be beneficial to the group.


Yeah, a vehicle that hasn't been working since the... wait, ever.

The Maoists in Nepal would disagree with you; which I think is significant, since they actually live in a third world nation… whereas you are a Canadian Maoist. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Maoists have done… what, exactly, to better the situation in ANY First World Nation? Hell, what have they ("They" being first world maoists) done to help the third world? “Nothing” would be the correct answer.


They should just fuse with the Democrats instead. There really aren't any differences between them.

Yeah, aside from the whole “Communism” and quoting Lenin thing…

Let me summarize; Electoral politics can get America out of Iraq. Electoral politics can benefit tens of millions of people world wide.

Now let’s contrast this to the “violent revolution” approach – it will take, at the least, decades to build up enough support to even begin this. Meaning, you can offer no relief/support to the tens of millions Iraqis and Americans people suffering from the current war…. For decades, minimum.

Way to show your solidarity with the third world.


Mr. Debs, the old Socialist Party and the IWW were the ones that in history were the most successful in bringing the idea of Socialism to the USA, and one of the stratagies thar worked was running Mr. Debs for office.

You forgot to mention “They actually improved life for millions upon millions of people.” As opposed to revolutionary communists in America who have yet to impact (positively) the lives of any Americans through some of their “revolutionary actions”.

[RNK]

The Maoists in Nepal would disagree with you; which I think is significant, since they actually live in a third world nation…

The Nepali revolutionaries chose to turn to parliamentarism after they had already seriously weakened the bourgeois and imperialist hold on the country and after they had demonstrated to the people of Nepal that another form of society, socialism, was not only possible, but provable. That situation does not exist in the West, nor will it unless a new strategy is adopted.


whereas you are a Canadian Maoist. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Maoists have done… what, exactly, to better the situation in ANY First World Nation?

The RCP is a major force for the oppressed and bottom "rung" of the social ladder in the United States. Also, the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist) is a quasi-Maoist organization and completely overshadows the Communist Party of Canada (CPUSA's "sister" party) in both its popularity and its social work.


Hell, what have they ("They" being first world maoists) done to help the third world? “Nothing” would be the correct answer.

"Nothing" would be the uninformed and ignorant answer. The RCP USA was one of the main signatories for the RIM, to which the revolutionaries in Nepal, India, the Philippines and Peru, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey are affiliated to.

What you fail to even consider is that no organization in the West today has the capability to stand up to the security forces of any western nation. And whereas you approach that issue with the conclusion that "we mustn't rock the boat", MLM's approach that issue with the conclusion that a highly analytical decision on strategy must be attained. Both of the RCP's in the US and Canada have seen very explosive gains in their popularity and ability to reach out to the masses and provide them with a proper revolutionary strategy to better their lives. They do not try to cater to bourgeois parliamentarism by promising "if you vote for us, we'll try to pass laws to make your lives a bit better... maybe!" They offer a complete refusal to collaborate with this false premise of reformevolution, to challenge the state's authority directly, and force the ruling class to give up their power.


Yeah, aside from the whole “Communism” and quoting Lenin thing…

Oh noes! The CPUSA has quoted Lenin at some point in the past several years! They MUST be revolutionary! :rolleyes:


Let me summarize; Electoral politics can get America out of Iraq. Electoral politics can benefit tens of millions of people world wide.

Yeah, just like it did after the 2004 elec--... wait, no, it didn't. Bush got re-elected, military spending is increasing, tens of thousands more are dying and tens of millions more are suffering. You're being an idiot.


Now let’s contrast this to the “violent revolution” approach – it will take, at the least, decades to build up enough support to even begin this.

In contrast to the decades you reformists have spent degrading the revolutionary movement?


Meaning, you can offer no relief/support to the tens of millions Iraqis and Americans people suffering from the current war…. For decades, minimum.


And you can never offer tens of millions of Iraqis and Americans any relief. Your ability to "provide relief" has steadily dropped over the past 50 years. And yet you ignorantly hold on to that false hope, somehow believing that something will drastically change, and some stupid reformist will be elected President.


Way to show your solidarity with the third world.

Yes, let's show them solidarity by partaking in a strategy which has resulted in nothing but failure after failure for the better part of a century, and by proving to them that while they pick up arms and bleed and die for this revolution, we're only willing to poke holes in ballot slips.

Fucking reformist scum.

[applejacks]

The RCP is a major force for the oppressed and bottom "rung" of the social ladder in the United States.

This simply is not true. RCP did try to focus on work among these sections in the 90s, some of this work was called "a bridge to nowhere." Their main work has been with WCW, which is mostly focused on white liberals. Now that WCW is in bad shape, they just push the Bob cult all the time.


The RCP USA was one of the main signatories for the RIM, to which the revolutionaries in Nepal, India, the Philippines and Peru, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey are affiliated to.

What do you mean affiliated? The CP Philippines is not affiliated with RIM. They have been signatory to various documents put out by the Workers Party of Belgium sponsored conferences and the Marxist-Leninist Party of Germany sponsored conferences, not the RIM ones. The CP India (Maoist), to which I assume you are referring, has also not claimed to be affiliated with the RIM so far as I know. Their predecessor organization(s) may have, but they have, if anything, been distancing themselves from the RIM for some time now. The Peruvians don't look well on RCP either -- they make all kinds of accusations against RCP. Get your facts straight.

[RNK]

You're quite the idiot, aren't you? Perhaps you are misunderstanding the word "affiliated" -- they are affiliated as much as the RCP Canada is, that is, they are very close and share paralel ideological lines, and co-operate heavily.

The Communist Party of the Philippines and the RIM are very close organizations and share parallel ideological lines. The CPP and RCP Canada (another "affiliate") are close mutual friends, and the RCP and Filipino community here very often work together.

The CPI(M) was formed by, IIRC, the merging of three Indian Maoist groups which were part of the original signatories of the RIM.

The Shining Path were also a signatory to the creation of the RIM.

Obviously, you know jack shit. As usual.

[RGacky3]

You're quite the idiot, aren't you?

Common man, don't be an asshole.


The Shining Path were also a signatory to the creation of the RIM.

So how did that go? :P


You forgot to mention “They actually improved life for millions upon millions of people.” As opposed to revolutionary communists in America who have yet to impact (positively) the lives of any Americans through some of their “revolutionary actions”.

Obviously it was different back then, the IWW got gains through direct action, and the Socialist Party had a lot more support, won local elections, even got a guy into congress.

[RNK]

So how did that go?

Similar to Spain :lol: and that is the only large-scale defeat, might I add, the MLM revolutionary forces have ever suffered.


Obviously it was different back then, the IWW got gains through direct action, and the Socialist Party had a lot more support, won local elections, even got a guy into congress.

The point is is that this is no longer possible, and that pursuing dead dreams is counter-revolutionary, as it weakens the otherwise authentic power of the revolutionary movement.

[applejacks]

RNK is playing loose with words.

The CP Philippines, as far as I know, has not signed a single RIM document. They have been associated with the PTB and MLPD which are not friendly at all to the RIM or RCP. In the past the CP of the Philippines explicitly rejected the idea of new comintern-type organization. Within the US, CP Philippines' name appears not on documents with RCP, but on documents with FRSO-type trends.

The CP Indian (Maoist) has not claimed to be a RIM member so far as I know. Their predecessors did, which is different as can been seen in the CPI(Maoist)'s attitude now toward the RIM. They have been critical of RCP in particular, AWTW even ran the polemic. They have also criticized the CPN (Maoist) and they disagree with the RIM line on some big issues. CP Indian (Maoist) supports thinks the Islamic upsurge is progressive and anti-imperialist.

Shining Path claimants have no love of RCP and often claim that RCP is tied up to the CIA. At one point, one group (redsun?), produced a movie with Avakian turning into a zombie. Others like the guy who did the interview of the century with Gonzalo also claims as much.

Basically what is going on here is that RNK is an opportunist and is trying to associate the RCP to movements that have a degree of prestige.

[RGacky3]

Similar to Spain and that is the only large-scale defeat, might I add, the MLM revolutionary forces have ever suffered.

I'm not talking about their being defeted, I'm talking about their murdering of peasants.


The point is is that this is no longer possible, and that pursuing dead dreams is counter-revolutionary, as it weakens the otherwise authentic power of the revolutionary movement.

I would agree that electoral politics (at least in the states) is a dead dream, but how at all is direct action a dead dream? You see what direct worker action (strikes, occupations, mass protests) are doing in Latin America, you also see how huge the May 1rst strikes were.

Doing things different ways is not at ALL counter revolutionary, it may be counter Maoist, but Maoism does'nt have a monopoly on revolution :P, and thank God for that :P, that would be scary :P.

[RNK]

The CP Philippines, as far as I know, has not signed a single RIM document. They have been associated with the PTB and MLPD which are not friendly at all to the RIM or RCP. ... Within the US, CP Philippines' name appears not on documents with RCP, but on documents with FRSO-type trends.

This statement (http://www.aworldtowin.org/back_issues/1995-20/message_to_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Philippines_ 20_eng.htm) would beg to differ, as would this (http://www.rwor.org/a/v20/980-89/987/cpp30.htm).

Here (http://www.pcr-rcp.ca/en/2006crc/philippines) is a statement from the CPP to RCP Canada expressing their solidarity.

The CPP is often silent about the RIM, but has never issued overtly negative views about them, but has issued supportive statements for them and other organizations linked to them. They are simply different organizations which are quite nuetral to one another (though the RIM does seem to fully support the CPP).


In the past the CP of the Philippines explicitly rejected the idea of new comintern-type organization.

Which is an example of analytical failure, but also hardly telling of the nature of the CPP's relationship with other MLM organizations. Besides, how is the RIM anything like the Comintern, specifically Stalin's Comintern? It is a forum for international co-operation, not a Moskovian soapbox. Abandoning internationalism isn't something to be admired.


The CP Indian (Maoist) has not claimed to be a RIM member so far as I know. Their predecessors did, which is different as can been seen in the CPI(Maoist)'s attitude now toward the RIM. They have also criticized the CPN (Maoist) and they disagree with the RIM line on some big issues. CP Indian (Maoist) supports thinks the Islamic upsurge is progressive and anti-imperialist.

Both the CPI(M) and CPN(M) are members of CCOMPOSA and are in regular co-operation through that channel. They've also not become a member of RIM since the merge but are still supportive. Again, this does not contradict my statements of affiliation and co-operation. You're trying to sew seeds of discontent in a desert, moron.


Shining Path claimants have no love of RCP and often claim that RCP is tied up to the CIA.

There is no "Shining Path" anymore, dumbass. Since Gonzalo's incarceration, they have been almost completely destroyed and have splintered into a dozen or more small organizations, all of whom claim to carry on the torch of the Shining Path. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of these little groups did start to become MIMites. I wouldn't be surprised if even more became outright reformists and abandoned revolutionary practice altogether. Not you, not I, not anyone can claim that the Shining Path has made one statement or another, for the Shining Path, as it used to be, no longer exists. And that doesn't change the fact that up until that point, the CPP maintained its membership with the RIM.


At one point, one group (redsun?), produced a movie with Avakian turning into a zombie.

Apparently not (http://www.redsun.org/mpp_doc/wupp_ros99.htm), LOL.


Basically what is going on here is that RNK is an opportunist and is trying to associate the RCP to movements that have a degree of prestige.

Talking about others in the 3rd person doesn't make you smart. It makes you an idiot. Especially when you try to derail threads to try and pursue your crazy scab MIM agenda. You're doing nothing more than trying to outright smear anything to do with the RIM, RCP, and Avakian, claiming that criticism is somehow akin to outright deviation and rebuttle, when in reality (and this is something you MIMites can't comprehend), criticism, both inwards and outwards, forms a critical part of revolutionary thought. I'm ecstatic to see that such organizations as RIM, RCPUSA, CPI(M), CPI(N) and CPP are able to throw criticism around at each other and yet maintain cordial relationships, for not falling into sectarianism is and being blinded by ignorant is, in my opinion, a very important characteristic.

You can go back to scabbing now, MIMite. And can an admin please split this thread to remove all posts relating to applejacks and his anti-everything crusade, and merge them with the existing RCP thread? We're supposed to be talking about the CPUSA here.

[applejacks]

this statement would beg to differ, as would this.

How does a statement from RIM to the CPP prove the CPP has signed documents with the RIM? RIM sent a solidarity statement that does not imply any mutual recognition, let alone "affiliation".


Here is a statement from the CPP to RCP Canada expressing their solidarity.

I was speaking of RCP USA, not RCP Canada. I have no idea if RCP Canada is as stupid as RCP USA -- but if RNK is a representative, then that does not bode well for RCP Canada.


The CPP is often silent about the RIM, but has never issued overtly negative views about them, but has issued supportive statements for them and other organizations linked to them.

I did not say they did. You said they were affiliated, now you are saying they are "silent" on each other... Silence does not imply affiliation by any stretch and I'm not sure why you would think it does.


. They are simply different organizations which are quite nuetral to one another (though the RIM does seem to fully support the CPP).

Once again, you implied the CPP was affiliated with RIM. Now you are changing your story. You just make up shit as you go along.


Which is an example of analytical failure, but also hardly telling of the nature of the CPP's relationship with other MLM organizations. Besides, how is the RIM anything like the Comintern, specifically Stalin's Comintern? It is a forum for international co-operation, not a Moskovian soapbox. Abandoning internationalism isn't something to be admired.

I said the CPP in the past, i have no idea now, had a different model of intra-party relations and they polemicized against comintern-style operations, they obviously had somebody in mind with that...


Both the CPI(M) and CPN(M) are members of CCOMPOSA and are in regular co-operation through that channel. They've also not become a member of RIM since the merge but are still supportive. Again, this does not contradict my statements of affiliation and co-operation. You're trying to sew seeds of discontent in a desert, moron.

You are playing loose with words. You use the word "affiliation" in order to get prestige to rub off on RCP, then when presented with the facts, you back off and pretend you were not trying to make that connection.

I said:


Shining Path claimants...

RNK said:


There is no "Shining Path" anymore, dumbass.

Note the word "claimants". Once again you prove your lack of basic reading skills. Just as Henry is not even able to read his own cult literature.


I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of these little groups did start to become MIMites.

I have only seen that paper ages ago. I have no idea what the connection you are making is. I'll bite though.


And that doesn't change the fact that up until that point, the CPP maintained its membership with the RIM.

The various online factions had nothing good to say about RCP though. The link you gave to redsun was 1999. Read some of their other stuff from the 2000s. They have little good to say about Avakian. Not that I really care nor consider them a reliable source.


specially when you try to derail threads to try and pursue your crazy scab MIM agenda. You're doing nothing more than trying to outright smear anything to do with the RIM, RCP, and Avakian, claiming that criticism is somehow akin to outright deviation and rebuttle, when in reality (and this is something you MIMites can't comprehend), criticism, both inwards and outwards, forms a critical part of revolutionary thought. I'm ecstatic to see that such organizations as RIM, RCPUSA, CPI(M), CPI(N) and CPP are able to throw criticism around at each other and yet maintain cordial relationships, for not falling into sectarianism is and being blinded by ignorant is, in my opinion, a very important characteristic.

You can go back to scabbing now, MIMite.

This is like the second time you have said this. I have only seen the MIM paper a couple times in my life I am not even that familiar with them. I find it interesting that you keep saying I am part of this or that organization. In the other thread someone said I was CPUSA. That is funny too.


We're supposed to be talking about the CPUSA here.

Was it your or another wannabe who called me CPUSA earlier in the other thread on RCP? And someone implied I was anarchist? Make up your minds! Whatever boogyman floats your boat..

I admit this is off topic, but so is RNK's mentioning the RIM at all.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Applejacks,

you're full of shit. RIM affiliation, support, and membership mean that all the national groups are part of one global movement. There is no "renouncing" other affiliates of RIM within the movement. Sendero Luminoso members and RCP supporters have marched along side each other. The RCP did lots of promotion of the Sendero Luminoso because they were part of the same international movement and officially connected same with Nepal and now probably the same will unfold in Bhutan

[OneBrickOneVoice]

The Maoists in Nepal would disagree with you; which I think is significant

There are different material conditions. The Nepalese Maoist comrades live in a semi-fuedal country, and oppressed country. In such a country, New Democratic Revolution is necessary; a democratic revolution led by the proletariat to kick out imperialism and bring people's democracy as a path to socialism. The Nepalese Maoists have attempted to bring about such a stage, weither they took a failed shortcut in this process or made a tactically genius move, we'll see.

In the First World Oppressor nations however Bourgeois democracy has already been established and imperialism isn't dominating the country, thus socialist revolution is the path out.

[RNK]

I'm not talking about their being defeted, I'm talking about their murdering of peasants.

According to whom? The reactionary regime of Peru? Yes, let's all take their word for it... :rolleyes:


I would agree that electoral politics (at least in the states) is a dead dream, but how at all is direct action a dead dream? You see what direct worker action (strikes, occupations, mass protests) are doing in Latin America, you also see how huge the May 1rst strikes were.

Obviously the material situation in Latin America, and elsewhere, is far more conducive to direct action and popular politics than it is in the US. We're essentially saying the same things. I never said direct action as a strategy was a dead dream; I said that the current strategy of the CPUSA and similar organizations in the West, in conditions which do not support it, are dead dreams, and, as an extension of that, I believe that they are a negative force against the revolution because they are dead dreams. And also because, in some cases, they actually have enough popularity that their negative actions are a hindrance to authentic revolution -- hence my belief that they are counter-revolutionary, as they damage the revolutionary movement.


Doing things different ways is not at ALL counter revolutionary, it may be counter Maoist, but Maoism does'nt have a monopoly on revolution , and thank God for that , that would be scary .

Got nothing unique and new to say? Why do people always turn to sectarianism when they feel their ideological legitimacy threatened? (I do the same, of course)

[Thunderbird]

The RCP is a major force for the oppressed and bottom "rung" of the social ladder in the United States.

RCP USA is a major force for the oppressed? Tell me, please, what have they done? Please, provide me with a 3rd party observation of the “major force” this party has. And if you mean the Canadian party, please, again, give me third party sources proving this.


Also, the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist) is a quasi-Maoist organization and completely overshadows the Communist Party of Canada (CPUSA's "sister" party) in both its popularity and its social work.

Please provide examples of “social work” that the CPC-ML has undertaken to improve the lives of Canadians.


What you fail to even consider is that no organization in the West today has the capability to stand up to the security forces of any western nation. And whereas you approach that issue with the conclusion that "we mustn't rock the boat", MLM's approach that issue with the conclusion that a highly analytical decision on strategy must be attained.

No revolutionary organization has – for over a century – even approached a level of power that would have allowed it to stand up to the security force of America.

Furthermore, my main charge against your ideology has nothing to do with “rocking the boat” – it’s about what will work in America. Personally, I fail to see how an ideology that bases itself on prolonged popular warfare by the peasantry would be effective in a nation wherein the majority of the population resides in cities and that completely and totally lacks a peasantry.

Let me put it this way; I’ve spent less than two years of my life living on paved roads. The rest of the time I’ve lived in the boonies – and I have yet to see ANY evidence of Maoist activity. Not a single poster, not a single pamphlet…. Nothing. From all I’ve observed of Maoist groups in America, they are confined to small followings in large cities on the coasts (and a bit of Chicago)…. And that’s after nearly half a century of existence.


Both of the RCP's in the US and Canada have seen very explosive gains in their popularity and ability to reach out to the masses and provide them with a proper revolutionary strategy to better their lives. They do not try to cater to bourgeois parliamentarism by promising "if you vote for us, we'll try to pass laws to make your lives a bit better... maybe!" They offer a complete refusal to collaborate with this false premise of reformevolution, to challenge the state's authority directly, and force the ruling class to give up their power.

Perhaps you should spend some time researching the parties you are attempting to defend; [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Canada_%28Marxist-Leninist%29]link[/url – as they CPC-ML has been active in elections for decades.]

Also, do you have any way to “prove” this explosive growth occurred? I’d love to see some sources – especially from somewhere other than the above mentioned parties.


"Nothing" would be the uninformed and ignorant answer. The RCP USA was one of the main signatories for the RIM, to which the revolutionaries in Nepal, India, the Philippines and Peru, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey are affiliated to.

Last time I checked, the Maoists in Afghanistan sent friendly communiqués to the Maoist International Movement, who spend a great deal of time describing the RCP USA as Crypto-Trots.

RCP USA was a MAIN signatory for the RIM? What research have you done on this matter? The RCP USA and the Maoists in Chile were the two Gang-of-Four supporting groups that decided to start the RIM; they were the initiators who then solicited support from . The book I’ve mentioned before, International Maoism in the Developing World by Robert J. Alexander (he also wrote a book that covers the same topic in the developed world) covers this; as does the Yearbook on International Communist Affairs I believe.

Furthermore, just because it’s affiliated with the RIM means nothing; the groups mentioned have – with the exception of Nepal – been effectively checked from becoming large scale movements by the Governments of all mentioned nations.


Yeah, just like it did after the 2004 elec--... wait, no, it didn't. Bush got re-elected, military spending is increasing, tens of thousands more are dying and tens of millions more are suffering. You're being an idiot.

…and your theory is, what, if a good portion of the nation can’t be convinced that the current war in Iraq is a bad idea you can still convince them that Maoism is a good idea? That’s a leap in logic.

Also, although the 2004 elections were a failure it did result in a victory in the midterm elections and has changed public opinion so much that the nation went from mostly supporting war against Iraq to mostly demanding an end to the war.

Furthermore, have we forgotten the role electoral politics had in getting American troops out of Vietnam?


In contrast to the decades you reformists have spent degrading the revolutionary movement?

Your revolutionary movement has had no noticeable impact on the lives of any sector of American society; whereas reformists have been a part of successful campaigns to legalize abortion, get troops out of Vietnam, healthcare reform, etc. The reformist scorecard isn’t great, but it’s better than the goose egg the revolutionary movement has.



And you can never offer tens of millions of Iraqis and Americans any relief. Your ability to "provide relief" has steadily dropped over the past 50 years. And yet you ignorantly hold on to that false hope, somehow believing that something will drastically change, and some stupid reformist will be elected President.

Yeah, because reformist movements haven’t been chalking up success in various Western European nations; where the Maoists, again, have had no noticeable impact on the lives of the average Joe.


Similar to Spain and that is the only large-scale defeat, might I add, the MLM revolutionary forces have ever suffered.

The only large scale defeat – have you forgotten that “counter revolution” in China you Maoists spend so much time discussing? Assuming you just mean RIM affiliated groups, then a more accurate way to state it would be to say “The Shining Path was one of two groups that actually managed to launch a large scale war –in the history of the RIM.”



There are different material conditions. The Nepalese Maoist comrades live in a semi-fuedal country, and oppressed country. In such a country, New Democratic Revolution is necessary; a democratic revolution led by the proletariat to kick out imperialism and bring people's democracy as a path to socialism. The Nepalese Maoists have attempted to bring about such a stage, weither they took a failed shortcut in this process or made a tactically genius move, we'll see.

…and they started this after years of being part of various “reformist” groups and countless schisms. Personally, I support the Maoists in Nepal, though.


According to whom? The reactionary regime of Peru? Yes, let's all take their word for it...

Are you claiming that the manner by which historical events unfolded does not support the idea that the Shining Path alienated the vast majority of the indigenous forces which had originally supported the group?


Got nothing unique and new to say? Why do people always turn to sectarianism when they feel their ideological legitimacy threatened? (I do the same, of course)

I’d say because they have an emotional investment in their ideology; they have interwoven what they think into who they are so completely that any conflict between their ideology and other people/reality results in emotional outbursts. It’s similar to the crisis that the youth who over identify with music in their teenage years undergo. I’d say it’s a sign that someone is being more emotional than logical.

[RNK]

I hate how ignorance requires so much fucking effort to debunk. I'm tempted to not even bother, but I'm always a sucker for proving idiocy...


RCP USA is a major force for the oppressed? Tell me, please, what have they done?

An actual supporter of the RCPUSA would be better able to answer this question. However, in short, the RCP is active across every quadrant of the US, organizing with exploited lower-class peoples, reaching out to the black and latino minorities, and helping generate co-operation and understanding of the revolutionary situation across all ethnic lines. As was pointed out earlier, occasions where the RCP organizes meetings and talks routinely gather hundreds of participants. But again, if you want specifics, an RCPUSA supporter could give them better.


Please, provide me with a 3rd party observation of the “major force” this party has.

IIRC the CL is very supportive of the RCP. But the most telling observation is that from the exploited people that the RCP works with.


Please provide examples of “social work” that the CPC-ML has undertaken to improve the lives of Canadians.

Again, a member of the CPCML can better answer this question. However, I can say off the top of my head that the CPC-ML and its membership are connected with various social movements such as the OCAP (not sure of the connection exactly), several union organizations and mass movements, as well as anti-imperialism efforts, etc. At the recent protests in Montebello, the RCP and CPC-ML were the only [important] communist organizations to show up with flags raised. The CPC was nowhere to be found. But again, someone more knowledgable can answer your question, or you could look it up yourself.


RCP USA was a MAIN signatory for the RIM?

Yes. As were the Nepalis, Indians, and Peruvians.


Last time I checked, the Maoists in Afghanistan sent friendly communiqués to the Maoist International Movement, who spend a great deal of time describing the RCP USA as Crypto-Trots.

They may well have, and that's not my concern. At the Canadian Revolutionary Congress held by RCP Canada last fall a representative of the Communist (Maoist) Party of Afghanistan presented a comminuque (http://www.pcr-rcp.ca/en/2006crc/afghanistan) to the Party and participants. The Shola Jawid also has a link to the RIM, not the MIM. ;)


Let me put it this way; I’ve spent less than two years of my life living on paved roads. The rest of the time I’ve lived in the boonies – and I have yet to see ANY evidence of Maoist activity. Not a single poster, not a single pamphlet…. Nothing. From all I’ve observed of Maoist groups in America, they are confined to small followings in large cities on the coasts (and a bit of Chicago)…. And that’s after nearly half a century of existence.

Funny. I've lived in a combination of small rural town to the center of one of Canada's largest cities, and I've not once seen a single poster, pampthlet, newspaper, or anything physically tangible to do with the CPC -- and I'm willing to bet it's the same with the CPUSA. Both parties are nothing more than noisy ghosts of their former selves who dwell solely in obscure, patriotic wikipedia pages and, as you're demonstrating, the backwardness of a tiny, insignificant fraction of the "online Left".


Furthermore, just because it’s affiliated with the RIM means nothing; the groups mentioned have – with the exception of Nepal – been effectively checked from becoming large scale movements by the Governments of all mentioned nations.

Hardly. The growth of India's MLM revolutionary movement is growing and is now present in, iirc, about half of the country's provinces. The Afghani Maoists have only recently (within the past couple of years) reconstituted themselves; there is a large-scale insurgency in the Kurdish areas of Iran (that nobody hears/talks about); Turkey's Maoists continue to evade security forces; and the others are quite new. RCP Canada for instance was founded only in 2000 and the majority of its activity is restricted to Quebec (despite their best efforts, for now). Yet even in that geographically limited area in that limited amount of time, they've grown more influential than the entire nation-wide entity of the CPC.


Perhaps you should spend some time researching the parties you are attempting to defend;

When have I defended the CPC-ML? I simply said they were active in social movements and bigger than the CPC. I realize they're an electoral party and that's why I'll probably have nothing to do with them.


Also, do you have any way to “prove” this explosive growth occurred? I’d love to see some sources – especially from somewhere other than the above mentioned parties.

The proof is in the pudding; public notoriety of the RCPUSA has grown over the past 10 years. And as I said earlier, RCP Canada was formed only in 2000 (actually 2007 if you want to differentiate from the RCP's organizational stage and modern stage) and they gather far more supporters during demonstrations and meetings than any of the other mainstream communist parties. For instance, when the RCP held the CRC, the CPC also had their big national congress... participants to the CRC numbered a little more than 100, while the CPC drew in an impressive... 30-something? Maybe it was 40-something.

Another example is just this last August 26th during the "Quebec Social Forum"... from what I hear, the RCP and their supporters, marching as an anti-imperialist contingent, numbered somewhere around 100-150 ppl... whereas Jack Layton, who showed up to take part in the little aftermarch, had about 10-15 supporters around him.

And again, we're talking about an organization almost completely limited to southern Quebec. And already their numbers are quite large.


…and your theory is, what, if a good portion of the nation can’t be convinced that the current war in Iraq is a bad idea you can still convince them that Maoism is a good idea? That’s a leap in logic.

No. My theory is that attempting to convince a nation of people that the bourgeoisie is bad, by playing their game according to their rules, is a fool's errand. My theory is that in order to defeat the ruling class, their system of control must be challenged, not pampered and propped up by reformism.


Furthermore, have we forgotten the role electoral politics had in getting American troops out of Vietnam?

Iraq is not Vietnam, and this is not the 1960s, and we're not in the middle of the "New Left" movement. It's also quite telling, actually, that during the Anti-War movement in the 60s, even after the mobilization of millions of Americans against the war, very little was actually accomplished in terms of concrete gains on the part of the working class, or in terms of weakening the political and economic control of the ruling class. The US simply pulled out of Vietnam, the situation was settled, and you reformists and peaceniks disappeared into obscurity.


Your revolutionary movement has had no noticeable impact on the lives of any sector of American society; whereas reformists have been a part of successful campaigns to legalize abortion, get troops out of Vietnam, healthcare reform, etc. The reformist scorecard isn’t great, but it’s better than the goose egg the revolutionary movement has.

You're attempting to justify reformist because it's managed to squeeze a few more breadcrumbs out of the hands of the ruling class. Congratulations! When the fuck are you going to get down to business? True revolutionaries do not pander to trying to convince the rich to trickle more money down to the masses; they focus on the complete overthrow of the rich. Something reformist has never done. No, the revolutionary movement has not yet given any substantial "relief" -- that is not it's goal. It's goal is to liberate outright and unconditionally, not merely relieve temporarily.


The only large scale defeat – have you forgotten that “counter revolution” in China you Maoists spend so much time discussing?

The eventual defeat of Maoism at the hands of you revisionists and class traitors is inconsequential and deals with problems of post-revolutionary society. My contention, which you've het to even address, is that in terms of revolutionary strategy and tactical undertaking, MLM and protracted people's war have yet to be defeated. What occurs after their success is another subject entirely.

Hell, it even defeated the full military power (bar nuclear weapons) of the United States of America, something even the revisionist USSR probably couldn't have done.


Assuming you just mean RIM affiliated groups, then a more accurate way to state it would be to say “The Shining Path was one of two groups that actually managed to launch a large scale war –in the history of the RIM.”

Even if it were only the Shining Path, and even including their eventual defeat, it's still leagues more than what reformism has done.


…and they started this after years of being part of various “reformist” groups and countless schisms. Personally, I support the Maoists in Nepal, though.

And that is exactly the point I am making; they refused to remain in static, unsuccessful situations due to some political dogma or arrogance. They constantly analysed and re-analysed the situation, even if it did involve multiple splinterings and fractures, until they came to the correct ideological path.


Are you claiming that the manner by which historical events unfolded does not support the idea that the Shining Path alienated the vast majority of the indigenous forces which had originally supported the group?

I am claiming that the accusation that the Shining Path turned from mass liberator to brutal murderous organization, almsot overnight, is a fabrication and exhaggeration. I'm not claiming they didn't expose the peasants to violence; from what I can tell of the experience, it seems they were defeated partially by a successful campaign of the government to hire mercenary guerilla groups and perhaps by an ideological breakdown in the Shining Path itself, which left its support base vulnerable to both intimidation and disapproval. However I'm not completely knowledgable about the whole situation.

You're not making a very good case for reformism, comrade. You're only providing more concrete examples of its failures.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You forgot to mention “They actually improved life for millions upon millions of people.” As opposed to revolutionary communists in America who have yet to impact (positively) the lives of any Americans through some of their “revolutionary actions”.

Have you heard of the Black Panthers, International Labor Defense, etc.?

[RGacky3]

According to whom? The reactionary regime of Peru? Yes, let's all take their word for it...

Well, lets see, any respectable historian, eye witness accounts, living relatives ... you know what pretty much everyone but a couple head strong Maosists.


Got nothing unique and new to say? Why do people always turn to sectarianism when they feel their ideological legitimacy threatened? (I do the same, of course)

How is saying that Maoism is'nt the only way sectarian, I'd just like to point out, that if you look at the Secterianism in the Leninist inspired movements and the Anarchist inspired movements, the Leninists are way way wya more sectarian.


Are you claiming that the manner by which historical events unfolded does not support the idea that the Shining Path alienated the vast majority of the indigenous forces which had originally supported the group?

Alienated is putting it lightly, they murdered many indigenous people, peasents, workers, even labor organizers.


I am claiming that the accusation that the Shining Path turned from mass liberator to brutal murderous organization, almsot overnight, is a fabrication and exhaggeration. I'm not claiming they didn't expose the peasants to violence;

EXPOSE THE PEASENTS TO VIOLENCE??? Are you freaking kidding me? You minced your words so much they don't even hold together, I guess thats one way to put it, another way to put it is murdered them. The Shining Path was never Mass Liberator, they had from a few of the peasentry, because they offered something new, and a lot of the people they killed were unpopular ones, but they always were murderers.

[Thunderbird]

However, in short, the RCP is active across every quadrant of the US, organizing with exploited lower-class peoples, reaching out to the black and latino minorities, and helping generate co-operation and understanding of the revolutionary situation across all ethnic lines. As was pointed out earlier, occasions where the RCP organizes meetings and talks routinely gather hundreds of participants. But again, if you want specifics, an RCPUSA supporter could give them better.

RNK, it’s not “pointing something out” if you fail to cite a source. You have yet to do so, much less give a third party account of such actions or of their popularity.


IIRC the CL is very supportive of the RCP. But the most telling observation is that from the exploited people that the RCP works with.

This does not count as proof, RNK – obviously, I am not going to just take your word for it. So, please, provide a source – preferably a third party source.


However, I can say off the top of my head that the CPC-ML and its membership are connected with various social movements such as the OCAP (not sure of the connection exactly), several union organizations and mass movements, as well as anti-imperialism efforts, etc. At the recent protests in Montebello, the RCP and CPC-ML were the only [important] communist organizations to show up with flags raised. The CPC was nowhere to be found. But again, someone more knowledgable can answer your question, or you could look it up yourself.

Again, RNK, give me sources; thus far you’ve made nothing but a series of vague, nebulous statements and have often failed to give a source for them; and then you actually prompt others to go back up your own statements for you.

Also, the OCAP doesn’t even link to the CPC-ML on its webpage. I find it hard to believe – incredibly hard to believe – that they would bother to link to various Anarchist groups and not the CPC-ML if the CPC-ML had any significant amount of influence on that group.



They may well have, and that's not my concern. At the Canadian Revolutionary Congress held by RCP Canada last fall a representative of the Communist (Maoist) Party of Afghanistan presented a comminuque to the Party and participants. The Shola Jawid also has a link to the RIM, not the MIM.

Apologies, it appears we were speaking of different Maoist groups in Afganistan.



Funny. I've lived in a combination of small rural town to the center of one of Canada's largest cities, and I've not once seen a single poster, pampthlet, newspaper, or anything physically tangible to do with the CPC -- and I'm willing to bet it's the same with the CPUSA. Both parties are nothing more than noisy ghosts of their former selves who dwell solely in obscure, patriotic wikipedia pages and, as you're demonstrating, the backwardness of a tiny, insignificant fraction of the "online Left".

True, I have yet to see any Communist propaganda of any sort in a rural setting. However, at one of my local libraries where I live now (KCMO), I have read and spotted quite a few books from the CPUSA’s press. I’ve only spotted two from the old Maoist press in Peking and the only new books on Maoism that I’ve seen view it from a strictly academic viewpoint.

Furthermore, the CPUSA claims to have around 15,000 members – including famous Marxists such as Angela Davis. The RCPUSA, on the other hand, has “Chairman Bob” as its sole star… and his appeal is limited more or less exclusively to RIM affiliated groups.


The growth of India's MLM revolutionary movement is growing and is now present in, iirc, about half of the country's provinces.

It wouldn’t be hard for India’s Maoist movement to “grow”, considering the drastic reduction in member that occurred in previous decades. However, you are making a dramatic error by assuming that all the Maoists in India are working together; the schismatic tendency of all Bolshevik groups is prevalent in India’s Maoist movement, and has resulted in Maoists killing members of rival Maoist groups.

Furthermore, have you actually read about what the Naxalites themselves have admitted to doing? They’d convene their own trials and put forth charges against various persons they viewed as counter-revolutionary; then, in some instances, they’d hack the person to bits, then proceed to pick up the remains and write Maoist slogans on available walls with the gore of human remains. That’s a group to support, right there – a group that uses human remains as crayons.

If you want a good summary of this, that Robert J. Alexander book “Maoism in the Developing World” has an excellent section on India and it is my source for all the above.


Iraq is not Vietnam, and this is not the 1960s, and we're not in the middle of the "New Left" movement. It's also quite telling, actually, that during the Anti-War movement in the 60s, even after the mobilization of millions of Americans against the war, very little was actually accomplished in terms of concrete gains on the part of the working class, or in terms of weakening the political and economic control of the ruling class. The US simply pulled out of Vietnam, the situation was settled, and you reformists and peaceniks disappeared into obscurity.

The mobilization of millions against the Vietnam War never was supposed to accomplish anything other than getting the US out of Vietnam; the entire effort was the result of groups with different ideologies who could only agree on working together so America gets out of Vietnam.

Regarding a lack of concrete gains; the movement was effective enough that the US government failed to engage in another large-scale war for 30 years. I’d say that is a major accomplishment. It also secured the right to vote at age 18 and helped aid the Feminist movement, which led to Roe v. Wade. I need not mention the fusing of the Anti-War Movement with various Minority groups; such as the Black Panthers and the subsequent massive improvement in the rights and lives of millions of minorities in America.

Reformists and Peaceniks disappeared into obscurity; if you’re actually trying to set that up as a comparison to the “Revolutionaries” of the 70s/60s, I suggest you note how the revolutionaries captured control of SDS, and then proceeded to schism it into literal oblivion. Furthermore, the immediate agenda put forth by reformists (an end to international “police actions”, equal rights amongst all sexes and races, an end to homophobia, etc.) were still carried forth by other groups. The revolutionary agenda, on the other hand, largely disappeared.

Finally, again – and this is a point you have yet to address – the electoral process is MUCH more likely to get the US out of Iraq quickly than the revolution you are hoping for (which, again, won’t come for several decades at least.)


True revolutionaries do not pander to trying to convince the rich to trickle more money down to the masses; they focus on the complete overthrow of the rich. Something reformist has never done. No, the revolutionary movement has not yet given any substantial "relief" -- that is not it's goal. It's goal is to liberate outright and unconditionally, not merely relieve temporarily.

The goal of the revolutionaries may be to liberate outright and unconditionally, but it has never done this. Even if we use the Maoist yardstick, you had roughly 40 years in the USSR and the PRC before “counter-revolutionaries” took control. In other words, you have yet to do more than “temporarily relieve” any problems, and once the “counter-revolutionaries” take control the situation rapidly went against the vast majority of principles you are proclaiming to stand up for. Mind you, by using your own damn standards you have failed; you have yet to produce a single nation that has been successfully ruled for a half century.

The reformists have never had a “spectacular revolution” (and it’s idiotic to expect reformists to have one) – but they have avoided decade after decade of decline in the living standards of their nations. The citizens of these nations have – in the long run – had their human rights greatly expanded as well as been witness to improvements in quality of life.

In brief, I’m defending “actually existing pathways to Socialism; pathways that have proven to work” whereas you, like a Trotskyite, are unceasingly criticizing what works because it’s imperfect – ignoring all the advances that have been made and sustained; unlike the utopian dream of you Maoists which has never managed to last more than fifty years.



The eventual defeat of Maoism at the hands of you revisionists and class traitors is inconsequential and deals with problems of post-revolutionary society.

The defeat of Maoist thought in the country it was birthed is inconsequential? Pray tell, how on earth is it inconsequential? Surely, even you would have to admit it proves that there are some flaws in Maoist thought.


My contention, which you've het to even address, is that in terms of revolutionary strategy and tactical undertaking, MLM and protracted people's war have yet to be defeated. What occurs after their success is another subject entirely.

MLM parties have yet to be defeated when they put into practice protracted popular warfare? Surely your memory is bad (or are you attempting to forget inconvenient facts), to quote yourself (in reference to the Shinning Pather), that is the only large-scale defeat, might I add, the MLM revolutionary forces have ever suffered. – that was only a few posts ago.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I’d call squashing of the Naxalite movement of India in the 1970s (which caused it to be virtually annihilated) a “defeat”. Also, what about Burma? Thailand? Indonesia? Malaysia? What about the Weather Underground in America? Are you calling the activities of Maoist groups in those nations “successful”?


Hell, it even defeated the full military power (bar nuclear weapons) of the United States of America, something even the revisionist USSR probably couldn't have done.

Erm, protracted peoples warfare defeated the USA? When?



Even if it were only the Shining Path, and even including their eventual defeat, it's still leagues more than what reformism has done.

Yeah, the Civil Rights movement never did any good for anyone! Also, it’s not “even if it were only the Shining Path” – the Shining Path is only one of two RIM groups, period, to launch a widespread popular war. One of two; in the history of the RIM. Considering the Maoists of Nepal quit the popular war and opted to go the parliamentary route, that means you Maoists have had… oh, well, about 3 decades of continually failing to gain power in any country. That’s a long, long time pal!



I am claiming that the accusation that the Shining Path turned from mass liberator to brutal murderous organization, almsot overnight, is a fabrication and exhaggeration. I'm not claiming they didn't expose the peasants to violence; from what I can tell of the experience, it seems they were defeated partially by a successful campaign of the government to hire mercenary guerilla groups and perhaps by an ideological breakdown in the Shining Path itself, which left its support base vulnerable to both intimidation and disapproval. However I'm not completely knowledgable about the whole situation.

Well, the fact that the indigenous people whom used to support the Shining Path started to actively kill known Shining Path members – aside from cessation of virtually all support (unless the Shining Path had a gun to their heads) the Indigenous gave the Shining Path – is an important point. I’d say that point more or less proves there was, at the minimum, a severe “ideological breakdown”. I won’t mention the conflict the Shining Path had with the Tupac Amura


Have you heard of the Black Panthers, International Labor Defense, etc.?

Bobby Seale has explicitly stated that the Black Panthers were not a Marxist-Leninist group; I do believe it’s even in the foreword of the new edition of “Seize the Time”.

I haven't heard much of International Labor Defense, however.

[Rawthentic]

Bobby Seale has explicitly stated that the Black Panthers were not a Marxist-Leninist group
Then Bobby Seale was wrong, for Huey Newton and other prominent members understood that the BPP was formed and based around Marxism-Leninism, or I suppose Marxism-Leninism-Maoism since Mao was a large influence in the Party.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Uh, the Black Panthers were communists.

It's amazing that I have to prove that, but since you insist:

"Alluding to the black nationalist United Slaves and Maulana Karenga, Black Panther Fred Hampton said, "[P]olitical power does not flow from the sleeve of a dashiki; political power flows from the barrel of a gun." ("Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" is an early quote by Mao Zedong.)" - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#Nationalism.2C_internationalism_and _.22intercommunalism.22)

"Indicative of this was Carmichael's embrace of the slogan of "Black Power", in contrast to Newton and Seale's embrace of the slogan "Power to the People" which they believed was of a more internationalist and Marxist character." - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#Nationalism.2C_internationalism_and _.22intercommunalism.22)

"We say that the Breakfast for Children Program is a socialistic program. It teaches the people basically that - by practice. We thought up and let them practice that theory and inspect that theory. What's more important? ... And a woman said, "I don't know if I like communism, and I don't know if I like socialism. But I know that the Breakfast for Children Program feeds my kids. And if you put your hands on that Breakfast for Children Program . . ." - Fred Hampton

"You know, a lot of people have hang-ups with the Party because the Party talks about a class struggle. We say primarily
that the priority of this struggle is class. That Marx and Lenin and Che Guevara and Mao Tse-tung and anybody else that has ever said or knew or practiced anything about revolution always said that a revolution is a class struggle. It was one class - the oppressed, and that other class - the oppressor. And it's got to be a universal fact. Those that don't admit to that are those that don't want to get involved in a revolution, because they know as long as they're dealing with a race thing, they'll never be involved in a revolution." - Fred Hampton

"New members had to attend a six-week training program and political education classes (largely based in Mao's Little Red Book)" - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#_note-30)

"We have said: the ideology of the Black Panther Party is the historical experience of Black people and the wisdom gained by Black people in their 400 year long struggle against the system of racist oppression and economic exploitation in Babylon, interpreted through the prism of the Marxist-Leninist analysis by our Minister of Defense, Huey P. Newton." - Eldridge Cleaver

...

Now that that's out of the way. Look into their survival programs, and the ILD, and other similar things.. Your previous assertion was completely dishonest.

[RNK]

Originally posted by Thunderbird
Blah blah sources blah blah

I said ask an actual supporter of the RCPUSA for sources. I don't feel like doing their job.

As for the CPC-ML's popularity, Canadian Federal Election results (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election%2C_2004) are as telling as any; the CPC-ML ran 76 candidates compared to 35 for the CPC, and got about twice the number of votes. A whole 9,000! Wow! :rolleyes:

The CPC-ML is also involved with the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and the United Steelworkers of America. Several leaders from these unions are CPC-ML members/supporters.

I digress, however. The CPC-ML is a defunct organization. Even though it easily trumps the CPC in popularity, it is still a failure of a reformist party.


Furthermore, the CPUSA claims to have around 15,000 members – including famous Marxists such as Angela Davis. The RCPUSA, on the other hand, has “Chairman Bob” as its sole star… and his appeal is limited more or less exclusively to RIM affiliated groups.

Angela who? Never heard of her. Not surprising. Heard of Carl Dix (http://revcom.us/a/carldix/cd.htm)? Look him up on the internet, youtube, etc. Same with Avakian, even, and the RCP. The RCP also helped develop the WCW anti-war movement.

Would an RCPUSA supporter PLEASE come and prove this idiot wrong? I really can't be bothered to.


However, you are making a dramatic error by assuming that all the Maoists in India are working together; the schismatic tendency of all Bolshevik groups is prevalent in India’s Maoist movement, and has resulted in Maoists killing members of rival Maoist groups.

Source?


Furthermore, have you actually read about what the Naxalites themselves have admitted to doing? They’d convene their own trials and put forth charges against various persons they viewed as counter-revolutionary;

Nothing wrong with that.


hen, in some instances, they’d hack the person to bits, then proceed to pick up the remains and write Maoist slogans on available walls with the gore of human remains. That’s a group to support, right there – a group that uses human remains as crayons.


What did the people they hacked up do? I understand the irrational hatred of oppressed peasants more than the rational submissiveness of western reformists.


The goal of the revolutionaries may be to liberate outright and unconditionally, but it has never done this. Even if we use the Maoist yardstick, you had roughly 40 years in the USSR and the PRC before “counter-revolutionaries” took control.

Wtf are you talking about? 1949-1959 is suddenly 40 years? I don't give a shit about the USSR, mind you, so I don't know why you're bringing them up.

Also, please explain how pre-revolutionary tactics leads to post-revolutionary policy? The point is that revolutionary strategies based on insurrectionary Leninism and guerilla Maoism have succeeded time and time again in defeating the bourgeoisie -- using the excuse that "afterwards something bad happened" is nothing but a complete distraction from the point. Seriously, can you come up with a single reformist movement which succeeded in creating a socialist society? Or a society even near socialism? Just one.


The defeat of Maoist thought in the country it was birthed is inconsequential? Pray tell, how on earth is it inconsequential? Surely, even you would have to admit it proves that there are some flaws in Maoist thought.

I have criticisms of a lot of Mao's theories, including New Democracy. However, again, you're avoiding the point -- we're not talking about what happens after the revolution; we're talking about how to get to revolution in the first place. And like I just said, please point out a single "reformist revolution".


Erm, protracted peoples warfare defeated the USA? When?

Vietnam, dumbass.


Also, maybe it’s just me, but I’d call squashing of the Naxalite movement of India in the 1970s (which caused it to be virtually annihilated) a “defeat”. Also, what about Burma? Thailand? Indonesia? Malaysia? What about the Weather Underground in America? Are you calling the activities of Maoist groups in those nations “successful”?

1) Obviously, as the Naxalites are still alive and well, and are spread across most of India, they are far from "virtually annihilated";
2) Burma? Thailand? Indonesia? Malaysia? When has a scaled PPW ever occured there?
3) The Weather Underground weren't Maoists you idiot.


ike a Trotskyite, are unceasingly criticizing what works because it’s imperfect

You claim it's worked, but you've yet to inform us of a single reformist "revolution".


Yeah, the Civil Rights movement never did any good for anyone!

Mass-action platforming and reformism are two different things. Also, many in the civ rights movement were not reformists -- many, like the BPP, were Maoist, as SP pointed out.


Bobby Seale has explicitly stated that the Black Panthers were not a Marxist-Leninist group

You're right -- they were more Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. ;)


I’d say that point more or less proves there was, at the minimum, a severe “ideological breakdown”.

Which I agree with. They were comprehensively defeated. A sad, but unavoidable fact.

[blackstone]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 04, 2007 12:52 am
Uh, the Black Panthers were communists.

It's amazing that I have to prove that, but since you insist:

"Alluding to the black nationalist United Slaves and Maulana Karenga, Black Panther Fred Hampton said, "[P]olitical power does not flow from the sleeve of a dashiki; political power flows from the barrel of a gun." ("Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" is an early quote by Mao Zedong.)" - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#Nationalism.2C_internationalism_and _.22intercommunalism.22)

"Indicative of this was Carmichael's embrace of the slogan of "Black Power", in contrast to Newton and Seale's embrace of the slogan "Power to the People" which they believed was of a more internationalist and Marxist character." - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#Nationalism.2C_internationalism_and _.22intercommunalism.22)

"We say that the Breakfast for Children Program is a socialistic program. It teaches the people basically that - by practice. We thought up and let them practice that theory and inspect that theory. What's more important? ... And a woman said, "I don't know if I like communism, and I don't know if I like socialism. But I know that the Breakfast for Children Program feeds my kids. And if you put your hands on that Breakfast for Children Program . . ." - Fred Hampton

"You know, a lot of people have hang-ups with the Party because the Party talks about a class struggle. We say primarily
that the priority of this struggle is class. That Marx and Lenin and Che Guevara and Mao Tse-tung and anybody else that has ever said or knew or practiced anything about revolution always said that a revolution is a class struggle. It was one class - the oppressed, and that other class - the oppressor. And it's got to be a universal fact. Those that don't admit to that are those that don't want to get involved in a revolution, because they know as long as they're dealing with a race thing, they'll never be involved in a revolution." - Fred Hampton

"New members had to attend a six-week training program and political education classes (largely based in Mao's Little Red Book)" - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panthers#_note-30)

"We have said: the ideology of the Black Panther Party is the historical experience of Black people and the wisdom gained by Black people in their 400 year long struggle against the system of racist oppression and economic exploitation in Babylon, interpreted through the prism of the Marxist-Leninist analysis by our Minister of Defense, Huey P. Newton." - Eldridge Cleaver

...

Now that that's out of the way. Look into their survival programs, and the ILD, and other similar things.. Your previous assertion was completely dishonest.
Just to add on i want to quote Bobby Seale directly from his book Seize the Time



The ideology of the Party is the whole historical experience of black people in America, the experience of all the social evils that have trampled on our heads and caused us to be oppressed. This historical experience of black people, translated through Marxism-Leninism, is really the ideology of the Black Panther Party. The history of the Party is a process of putting into practice the basic revolutionary principles that we've acquired.

and RNK? You never heard of Angela Davis, what about George Jackson? If not you should definately look them up, especially the latter. They played a big role in the Black Revolution of the 60's.

You may proceed. :D

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah pretty crazy. I know many liberals even know of Davis.

[RNK]

Remember, I'm not a citizen of the United States. Don't expect me to know every fucking working class figure that ever lived. I try to stay in the present, not the past.

[Thunderbird]

Then Bobby Seale was wrong, for Huey Newton and other prominent members understood that the BPP was formed and based around Marxism-Leninism, or I suppose Marxism-Leninism-Maoism since Mao was a large influence in the Party.

Erm, the BPP only started getting into Mao after the Party was formed.

In the beginning of 1968, after selling Mao's Red Book to university students in order to buy shotguns, the Party makes the book required reading. source (http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/)



Uh, the Black Panthers were communists.


We need activists who cross all ethnic and religious backgrounds and color lines who will establish civil and human rights for all, including the right to an ecologically balanced, pollution-free environment. We must create a world of decent human relationships where revolutionary humanism is grounded in democratic human rights for every person on earth. Those were the political revolutionary objectives of my old Black Panther Party. They must now belong to the youth of today.

source (http://www.orlok.com/tribe/insiders/seale.html)

Mr. Seale also made the above point repeatedly when I saw him speak.


Now that that's out of the way. Look into their survival programs, and the ILD, and other similar things.. Your previous assertion was completely dishonest.

The ILD were hardly revolutionary in action.

Regarding the BPP; I realize that they did have numerous programs that helped a good chunk of people – the Breakfast Program, as well as their medical programs as well. However, you have also got to look at the harm they did; incorrect tactics lead to the Police state shooting and imprisoning people. If one watches “The Huey P. Newton Story” Newton himself states that the party alienated the great mass of the Black Community through its tactics and language.

The alienation between the BPP and the Black Community takes on a melancholy tone once one realizes that, despite the alienation that occurred, leaders of predominately white (youth) movements continued to applaud the BPP as it inched towards ever more dangerous activities.


I said ask an actual supporter of the RCPUSA for sources. I don't feel like doing their job.

RNK, it’s quite simple: if you’re not willing to back up a claim, don’t make a claim.


Source?

Again, Robert J. Alexander, International Maoism in the Developing World, pages 231-245.


What did the people they hacked up do? I understand the irrational hatred of oppressed peasants more than the rational submissiveness of western reformists.

To quote, “I’ve seen our activist comrades at work. They enter a village and pull out the landlord. They then convene a people’s court in the village. When the people vote to execute the oppressor, our comrades hand them over to them, with his entire family. Then, with bleeding chunks of meat our comrades inscribe the thoughts of Chairman Mao on the village walls.”

It need also be noted that the Naxalites led by Charu Mazumdar had a policy entitled “Annihilation of Class Enemies”. I feel that properly frames the situation.


Wtf are you talking about? 1949-1959 is suddenly 40 years?

1959 – why on earth would you stop supporting Mao’s actions after 1959?


I don't give a shit about the USSR, mind you, so I don't know why you're bringing them up.

Gee, I thought the differences between Mao and Kruschev over the issue of de-Stalinization is what sparked the division of the COMINTERN; which, you know, prompted the CPC to agitate for its supporters to either take control of the Communist Parties said supporters were involved in or, failing that, to simply break away and start their own group.


please explain how pre-revolutionary tactics leads to post-revolutionary policy?

…because the actions a party takes prior to taking control strongly influence the way the populace views it? Furthermore, I’d say the organizational structure used to gain power will heavily influence the organizational structure used to maintain power.


like I just said, please point out a single "reformist revolution".

Asking for a “reformist revolution” is idiotic; there simply can’t be a reformist revolution However, there can and has been consistent improvement in the lives of millions of people. This is something revolutionaries have yet to do.

...

I got to go, I'll reply to the rest when I come back.

[RNK]

Erm, the BPP only started getting into Mao after the Party was formed.

In the beginning of 1968, after selling Mao's Red Book to university students in order to buy shotguns, the Party makes the book required reading.

How the fuck does that back up your claim? After selling Mao's Red Book -- that hints that Maoism was prominant long before the beginning of 1968.


Originally posted by Your source
From the tenets of Maoism they set the role of their Party as the vanguard of the revolution and worked to establish a united front, while from Marxism they addressed the capitalist economic system, embraced the theory of dialectical materialism, and represented the need for all workers to forcefully take over the means of production.

Sounds like MLM formed the basis of their theory from the start. Also more thank enough to debunk your claim that the BPP was not Communist.


The alienation between the BPP and the Black Community takes on a melancholy tone once one realizes that, despite the alienation that occurred, leaders of predominately white (youth) movements continued to applaud the BPP as it inched towards ever more dangerous activities.

This needs to be seen in the overall context. The same drop in mass support occured with all revolutionary movements at the time and it was all for the same reason; with the relative "success" of the Civil Right's movement, and the other "crumbs" thrown to the masses by the government, people were given just enough to satisfy them, while being repressed just enough to make them keep their heads down.


RNK, it’s quite simple: if you’re not willing to back up a claim, don’t make a claim.

It's also quite simple for you to look for yourself. I'll give you some hints; the RCP operates Revolution Bookstores in several cities, from L.A. to Seattle to NYC to Boston. Look up "Carl Dix". Hell, I'll pull a fast one too: Bob Avakian DVD (http://revcom.us/a/090/dvd-special-en.html) is a good source. :lol:


Again, Robert J. Alexander, International Maoism in the Developing World, pages 231-245

And who, exactly, is Robert J. Alexander?


To quote, “I’ve seen our activist comrades at work. They enter a village and pull out the landlord. They then convene a people’s court in the village. When the people vote to execute the oppressor, our comrades hand them over to them, with his entire family. Then, with bleeding chunks of meat our comrades inscribe the thoughts of Chairman Mao on the village walls.”

Bleeding chunks of meat? Something more elaborative, perhaps? Also, seems that's what the people chose. I imagine from your pedestal, such brutality seems barbaric; however it seems to me that they were tried legitimately in a people's court and that the people expressed their collective will. Do you have any more sources for these claims?


1959 – why on earth would you stop supporting Mao’s actions after 1959?

You asserted that he CCP had "40 years" to prevent revisionism -- as far as I'm concerned, revisionism succeeded in China as early as 1960, though more concretely by 1965-1970.

Also, again, how do the post-revolutionary developments factor into pre-revolutionary strategy?


Gee, I thought the differences between Mao and Kruschev over the issue of de-Stalinization is what sparked the division of the COMINTERN; which, you know, prompted the CPC to agitate for its supporters to either take control of the Communist Parties said supporters were involved in or, failing that, to simply break away and start their own group.

This has absolutely nothing to do with revolutionary strategy.


…because the actions a party takes prior to taking control strongly influence the way the populace views it? Furthermore, I’d say the organizational structure used to gain power will heavily influence the organizational structure used to maintain power.

:rolleyes: In that case, I'd fight any reformist party attempting to take power -- any "organizational structure" they use to maintain power will obviously consist of nothing but oppurtunism. Hell, it'd be capitalism, plain and simple.

Also, what do you know of the "organizational structure" of the CCP from the 1920s to 1949, and from 1949 to 1970? Do you know anything about how society was organized? Agricultural co-operatives? People's communes?


Asking for a “reformist revolution” is idiotic; there simply can’t be a reformist revolution However, there can and has been consistent improvement in the lives of millions of people. This is something revolutionaries have yet to do.

Besides the fact that you already contradicted this statement earlier in the same post, I challenge you to show how the lives of Russians and Chinese and Cubans didn't improve after 1917/1949/1959.