Chavez seeks end to term limits

[CheLover]

I was researching the internet and found this article below. It sounds like a very promising step in turning Venezuela into the new Cuba :D , but the questio is, how difficult is this going to be and will the opposition try something stupid? :o

Link below:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6932605.stm

[Tower of Bebel]

I'd rather see him replaced by someone else than to see him becoming the good "dictator". Is there no other way to defeat the bourgeoisie?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

It sounds like a very promising step in turning Venezuela into the new Cuba :D

If you are a supporter of the dicatorship of the proletariat and not merely some welfare state, you should not be excited about that at all.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:17 pm

It sounds like a very promising step in turning Venezuela into the new Cuba :D

If you are a supporter of the dicatorship of the proletariat and not merely some welfare state, you should not be excited about that at all.
Why? I thought the whole point of the revolution was to further Venezuela from imperialism.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Perhaps it is the goal of Chavez, perhaps it is what Venezuela will end up to be, a more independent nation not subject to imperialism.

But this board is called "revolutionary left", and revolutionary leftists goal is workers revolution and not bourgeois nationalism.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 01, 2007 03:38 pm
But this board is called "revolutionary left", and revolutionary leftists goal is workers revolution and not bourgeois nationalism.
isn't this what is going on in Venezuela?

[La Comédie Noire]

It will be the people who make the final decision about how long I stay,..

And if I throw everyone of the people who disagree with me in jail I'll be in office forever!!!

Seriously, lets see how he handles political dissent.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 01, 2007 04:42 pm

It will be the people who make the final decision about how long I stay,..

And if I throw everyone of the people who disagree with me in jail I'll be in office forever!!!

Seriously, lets see how he handles political dissent.
hehehe that was funny :lol:

[CheLover]

I am alittle confused though as to why chavez being president for life is a bad thing?

but do you think he can pull it off??

[La Comédie Noire]

I am alittle confused though as to why chavez being president for life is a bad thing?

but do you think he can pull it off??

I'd just like to see the workers take more control.

I mean Chavez has allowed for there to be workers' councils and state monitored union elections. He's also taxed the wealthy. But there is a danger inherent in letting him hold that much power, especially when they are sitting on black gold, exactly what the Imperialist beast hungers for. One day we'll wake up and hear he has begun trading with the United States.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 02, 2007 12:46 am
But there is a danger inherent in letting him hold that much power, especially when they are sitting on black gold,
hi floyd thanks for replying.

but whats the difference between him and castro. he has alot of power?

[La Comédie Noire]

I don't much trust Castro either. I'm just saying be weary remember it's the workers' who need to be incharge not the party elite.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 01, 2007 04:42 pm

It will be the people who make the final decision about how long I stay,..

And if I throw everyone of the people who disagree with me in jail I'll be in office forever!!!

Seriously, lets see how he handles political dissent.
What do you mean by political dissent? If you mean stifling differing opinions, I'll leave it at the fact that it is much easier to find anti-Chavez sentiments in Venezuelan press than it is to find pro-Chavez sentiments in Canada (understandable when the most widely-read media publication is owned by Ted Rogers)...If you mean limiting the ability of rich elites to use their media properties to lie to the people and subvert the democratic will of workers, poor peasants, and marginalised indigenous communities, then yes Chavez is guilty of censorship. :D

[La Comédie Noire]

What do you mean by political dissent? If you mean stifling differing opinions, I'll leave it at the fact that it is much easier to find anti-Chavez sentiments in Venezuelan press than it is to find pro-Chavez sentiments in Canada (understandable when the most widely-read media publication is owned by Ted Rogers)...If you mean limiting the ability of rich elites to use their media properties to lie to the people and subvert the democratic will of workers, poor peasants, and marginalised indigenous communities, then yes Chavez is guilty of censorship.

Yeah as of right now he's not doing anything because the dissent isn't being enacted by anyone important but what about when it's the working class?

Chavez hasn't taken one step towards anything near resembling Socialism! Please he's nationalized the oil Industry but oh wait....he still trades with the U.S.'

He's established worker's councils but oh wait... they still have to listen to managers and bosses.

On April 24th Workers trying to take over a ceramics factory in Sanitarios de Maracay were attacked by police and national guardsmen! The union leaders who orchestrated this were arrested!

What kind of revolutionary shuts down workers' action like that?

He may be all fine and jolly when he's spouting rhetoric but one day he's going to have to deliver his promises to the working class and when he doesnt they're gonna go nuts and when they go nuts he's going to have them arrested.

[bootleg42]

Chavez hasn't taken one step towards anything near resembling Socialism! Please he's nationalized the oil Industry but oh wait....he still trades with the U.S.'


If he doesn't trade with the U.S., the economy probably fails at this point since oil is a main source of income for the country BUT he is trying to make the country more independent every day. Are you looking for perfection?????


On April 24th Workers trying to take over a ceramics factory in Sanitarios de Maracay were attacked by police and national guardsmen! The union leaders who orchestrated this were arrested!


From what I know, many union leaders are corrupt and part of the old ruling class (or great friends with them). I mean Pedro Carmona (the guy who "overthrew Chavez for a day back in 2002) worked closely with unions. I want to know more about this one situation, like who were the union leaders and more about their intentions.


He may be all fine and jolly when he's spouting rhetoric but one day he's going to have to deliver his promises to the working class and when he doesnt they're gonna go nuts and when they go nuts he's going to have them arrested.

He's been delivering to the working class. First he built many houses for the poor who lived in absolute garbage. HE also empowered the poor and thanks to the boliviarian circles, the poor are now reading and studying marx.

He's not perfect but he's doing what has to be done. Viva Chavez!!!

[Entrails Konfetti]

This is hardly surprising.

:rolleyes:

[La Comédie Noire]

http://www.marxist.com/meaning-attack-sani...cay270407-4.htm (http://www.marxist.com/meaning-attack-sanitarios-maracay270407-4.htm)

[/QUOTE]If he doesn't trade with the U.S., the economy probably fails at this point since oil is a main source of income for the country BUT he is trying to make the country more independent every day. Are you looking for perfection?????



You'd think he'd find a country that was less of an imperialist monster! You'd also think this was shit the workers should be deciding for themselves.


He's been delivering to the working class. First he built many houses for the poor who lived in absolute garbage. HE also empowered the poor and thanks to the boliviarian circles, the poor are now reading and studying marx.

He's not perfect but he's doing what has to be done. Viva Chavez!!![QUOTE]

Thats all good but what has he done to end exploitation?

[CheLover]

Comrade Floyd how far do you think he will get with this 'president for life' purposal?

[La Comédie Noire]

Comrade Floyd how far do you think he will get with this 'president for life' purposal?

I think he can ride on the sucesses of his domestic aid campaigns for quite sometime. After all he has helped a lot of people out, but on the other hand he hasn't quite delivered on his labour or land reforms.

It really depends on how fast class conciousness develops amongst the workers. Will they recognize they are still working for bosses and still have no control over factories?

[CheLover]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 02, 2007 03:06 am

Comrade Floyd how far do you think he will get with this 'president for life' purposal?

I think he can ride on the sucesses of his domestic aid campaigns for quite sometime. After all he has helped a lot of people out, but on the other hand he hasn't quite delivered on his labour or land reforms.

It really depends on how fast class conciousness develops amongst the workers. Will they recognize they are still working for bosses and still have no control over factories?
Lets hope the people are smart enough to realise this faster.

hopefully it wouldn't take decades to figure this out.

[LSD]

I was researching the internet and found this article below. It sounds like a very promising step in turning Venezuela into the new Cuba :D

Sorry, but there's nothing "promising" in a "new Cuba". Although you're probably right in predicting that this is a step towards Chavez's assumption of dictatorial powers.

That's not to say he will actually get there, mind you, there are a lot of competing social forces at work in Venezuela, many of them not too comfortable with the idea of a "President for life"; but I think the evidence is pretty clear that, if it were entirely up to him, Chavez would remain in office until the day he died.

It isn't that he's a "bad" person, it's just that all "leaders" are inevitably tempted by the power of their office. Whether to serve their own petty interests, or ideologically "reshape" society, no matter what their attitudes going in, they will eventually become corrupted by the position.


I thought the whole point of the revolution was to further Venezuela from imperialism.

No, the "whole point" of revolution is to liberate the proletariat. Getting rid of imperialism is a part of that, sure, but it's by no means the only one.

After all, the DPRK is about as "furthered" from imperialism as it gets, but that doesn't make the North Korean people any less oppressed. Indeed rather than being "liberating" or "revolutionary", Kim's policies of isolation have only served to accentuate the misery and exploitation of his subjects.

I'm by no means suggesting that Chavez has any intention of cutting Venezuela off from the world, but you need to understand that no matter how much he nationalizes industries or expels multi-nationals, if all he does is replace the oppression of foreign capital with that of local government, it won't do a thing to help the workers on the ground.

Remember, there is a reason that for all its rhetoric and red banners, the great Soviet experiment ultimately went nowhere; and that China is slowly collapsing into capitalism; and that every other "communist" state has collapsed or is on the verge of doing so.

And, yeah, that includes Cuba.

While often considered the "gold standard" for "workers' republics", for all intents and purposes, Cuba is a capitalist nation. It's managed to assert "communism" for 50 years, yet still it operates on the principles of a market economy.

Granted that market is heavily regulated and the bourgeois class has been largely supplanted by the governmental bureaucracy (although not entirely), but it's still a class society.

That's not surprising, of course, Cuba just doesn't have the means to be classless now or 50 years ago. But because its government claims to be working towards that aim, it can justify its iron grip on power.

So it doesn't allow any other political parties, so it prohibits protest, so it turns political participation into a privelege to be ordained, so it's had the same one man in power for 50 years, with no serious challengers ...ever.

What Cuba's done, economically, is nothing short of astounding, and it's a model for other third world countries to follow. But it's not "transitioning" anywhere, it's just following the regular course of industrial development, with an unusually high degree of market hampering and a particularly powerful state.

When Cuba finally moves beyond capitalism it won't be thanks to the "transitioning" efforts of the Cuban Communist Party or the government of the Republic, but because its workers finally rise up and establish their own direct rule.

Unfortunately, right now they have no means of doing that. So the best they can hope for is what they've got, with a tad more republican liberalism. Because, red flags and banners notwithstanding, there is nothing "communist" in Cuba.

Nor would it do Venezuela any good to look to Cuba's political model. Economically, Cuba has a done an astounding job in the face of impossible odds, but their political system is catastrophic.

And emulating that mess would be nothing short of "revolutianary" suicide


I am alittle confused though as to why chavez being president for life is a bad thing?

um.... maybe because "president for life" is just a euphemism for dictator?

I'm honestly shocked that you could even ask that question; "President for life" has become such an obviously pejoritive title that even outright tyrants resist using it for fear of the associations it evokes.

As for Chavez, while we might speculate as to what his true desires are, he has the basic political common sense to insist that he does not seek a lifetime term.

Even if he were to assume outright dictatorial powers, he would mask it behind layers of constitutional and procedural ritual. That's what Castro has done in Cuba, you notice that neither he nor his supporters would ever refer to him as a "president for life".

That you, by contrast, not only accept but even applaud the notion speaks to a shocking political immaturity on your part.


but whats the difference between him and castro.

Right now? Chavez still has a few more checks on his personal power than Castro does, although I'm sure he's doing his best to change that.

[RHIZOMES]

One day we'll wake up and hear he has begun trading with the United States.

Venezuela, despite all the anti-US rhetoric, still trades with them.

[La Comédie Noire]

Venezuela, despite all the anti-US rhetoric, still trades with them.

Read further down I mention that the U.S trades with Venezuela. That was just an error.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

As for Chavez, while we might speculate as to what his true desires are

If I understand you correctly, you believe Chavez's aim is to become a lifelong ruler of Venezuela?

But beyond that, what is his personal motive, do you think? Introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism?

[CheLover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 01:06 pm

As for Chavez, while we might speculate as to what his true desires are

If I understand you correctly, you believe Chavez's aim is to become a lifelong ruler of Venezuela?

But beyond that, what is his personal motive, do you think? Introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism?
good question there i hope we get an answer because I would like to know

[LSD]

If I understand you correctly, you believe Chavez's aim is to become a lifelong ruler of Venezuela?

Pretty much.


But beyond that, what is his personal motive, do you think? Introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism?

I don't think he thinks in those terms. Obviously I'm speculating, but my guess would be that Chavez geniunely believes that he is "leading the Bolivarian revolution".

He probably doesn't have a clear "endgame" in mind, but I think he envisages somed rough form of socialist reorganization, probably along Cuban or broadly Soviet lines.

He also probably believes that he is personally essential to the sucess of the this revolutionary project. Leaders always do. That's why he's pusing to end term limits, it's why he's strengthening his hold on power.

Not because he's "evil" or "crazy" or whatever nonsense the American media labels him with, not even because he's particularly enjoying the bennefits of being President, although I'm sure he is; but rather because he honestly believes that he can use his position of power to affect social change.

Like all self-imagined "revolutionary leaders" before him, Chavez just can't resist the temptation of actually being in a position to effect things. Ideologues never can. That's why Castro has held the top spot for 50 years, it's why Lenin's stint as autocrat bore so little resemblence to his pre-October writings.

When you care so passionately about politics as these people do, the idea of giving up political power is akin to giving up life itself, it becomes virtually unthinkable. That's the lesson that the Leninist movement has unfortunately failed to learn, despite being schooled in it again and agian and again.

In the end, it doesn't matter how "noble" or "revolutionary" your intentions might be, power still corrupts. Indeed, very often it's the most revolutionary and the most noble who are the easiest corrupted, because they believe so strongly and bend so slowly.

People like to pain Stalin as a pragamtist aberration, as disitinctly "anti-Marxist" in some bizarre almost ahrinmanic sense. And yet the undeniable reality is that for all his occasional egoism and practicality, Joseph Stalin was an ardent communist, insofar as he understood communism.

The collectivizations, the industrializations, the vast economic restructurings, those were not the acts of a mere dictator, but of a leader with a clear vision of broad social transformation.

That vision was a deeply fucked up one, of course, but then so, probably, is Chavez's. I'm by no means suggesting that he will be "another Stalin", but he is still just a single mortal man with all the human frailties that go along with that condition.

There is a tendency in certain parts of the left to elevate the holdding of "socialist" tendencies to a degree aproaching apotheosis. It's important that we move beyond that. "Good intentions" don't matter for shit, if there's one thing we can learn from Marx it's that conditions, not "beliefs" shape behaviour.

And for all his well-intentioned beliefs, Hugo Chavez cannot escape his condition as a bourgeois politician. As such, empowering him for life helps no one but Hugo Chavez.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 05:20 pm

If I understand you correctly, you believe Chavez's aim is to become a lifelong ruler of Venezuela?

Pretty much.


But beyond that, what is his personal motive, do you think? Introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism?

I don't think he thinks in those terms. Obviously I'm speculating, but my guess would be that Chavez geniunely believes that he is "leading the Bolivarian revolution".

He probably doesn't have a clear "endgame" in mind, but I think he envisages somed rough form of socialist reorganization, probably along Cuban or broadly Soviet lines.

He also probably believes that he is personally essential to the sucess of the this revolutionary project. Leaders always do. That's why he's pusing to end term limits, it's why he's strengthening his hold on power.

Not because he's "evil" or "crazy" or whatever nonsense the American media labels him with, not even because he's particularly enjoying the bennefits of being President, although I'm sure he is; but rather because he honestly believes that he can use his position of power to affect social change.

Like all self-imagined "revolutionary leaders" before him, Chavez just can't resist the temptation of actually being in a position to effect things. Ideologues never can. That's why Castro has held the top spot for 50 years, it's why Lenin's stint as autocrat bore so little resemblence to his pre-October writings.

When you care so passionately about politics as these people do, the idea of giving up political power is akin to giving up life itself, it becomes virtually unthinkable. That's the lesson that the Leninist movement has unfortunately failed to learn, despite being schooled in it again and agian and again.

In the end, it doesn't matter how "noble" or "revolutionary" your intentions might be, power still corrupts. Indeed, very often it's the most revolutionary and the most noble who are the easiest corrupted, because they believe so strongly and bend so slowly.

People like to pain Stalin as a pragamtist aberration, as disitinctly "anti-Marxist" in some bizarre almost ahrinmanic sense. And yet the undeniable reality is that for all his occasional egoism and practicality, Joseph Stalin was an ardent communist, insofar as he understood communism.

The collectivizations, the industrializations, the vast economic restructurings, those were not the acts of a mere dictator, but of a leader with a clear vision of broad social transformation.

That vision was a deeply fucked up one, of course, but then so, probably, is Chavez's. I'm by no means suggesting that he will be "another Stalin", but he is still just a single mortal man with all the human frailties that go along with that condition.

There is a tendency in certain parts of the left to elevate the holdding of "socialist" tendencies to a degree aproaching apotheosis. It's important that we move beyond that. "Good intentions" don't matter for shit, if there's one thing we can learn from Marx it's that conditions, not "beliefs" shape behaviour.

And for all his well-intentioned beliefs, Hugo Chavez cannot escape his condition as a bourgeois politician. As such, empowering him for life helps no one but Hugo Chavez.
good response LSD. I look foward to other responses. cheers

[CheLover]

HA another update-

Chavez Says He Could Govern Until 2027


Monday September 3, 2007 1:01 AM

By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER

Associated Press Writer

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - President Hugo Chavez said Sunday he could continue governing until 2027 if voters do away with re-election limits because he needs more time in office to establish a socialist economic model in Venezuela.

He has previously said he could stay on as president until 2021 if his proposed constitutional reforms - which among other changes would eliminate presidential term limits, letting him run as many more times as he wants - are approved.

Government opponents have attacked the reforms, accusing Chavez of seeking to stay in power for decades like his close friend Fidel Castro of Cuba. Chavez denies the charges and says a new constitution is necessary to move Venezuela toward socialism and help the country's poor.

``I need more time in the presidency to finish this. We are only beginning,'' he said on his weekly radio and television program, ``Maybe until 2020 or 2027. I'd be old if I'm still alive.''

His proposals would also extend presidential terms from six to seven years, and empower neighborhood-based assemblies called ``communal councils.''

The reforms were initially approved last week by the National Assembly. Final approval is expected within two or three months, and the changes will then be submitted to voters in a referendum.

In typical style, Chavez spoke for several hours on subjects ranging from Mayan theology to U.S. ``imperialism'' to advice he received in a recent letter from Castro.

``Don't worry about that solitary gray hair in your black hair,'' Castro wrote, according to Chavez. ``My problem is finding a black one in my white hair.''

Though much remains unknown about Castro's health, Chavez has frequently offered general updates since Cuba's 81-year-old leader announced more than a year ago that he had undergone intestinal surgery and was provisionally ceding power to his younger brother Raul.

Chavez also said he hopes to meet soon with representatives of Colombia's largest rebel group - the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC - for talks aimed at exchanging dozens of guerrilla-held hostages, including politician Ingrid Betancourt and three U.S. defense contractors, for imprisoned guerrillas.

``We will a find a solution for the humanitarian exchange,'' he said, ``and hopefully we will also find a historic peace agreement.''

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe and FARC leaders have agreed to allow Chavez to mediate talks.

[Herman]

``Don't worry about that solitary gray hair in your black hair,'' Castro wrote, according to Chavez. ``My problem is finding a black one in my white hair.''

Oh dear...

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 11:20 am
Like all self-imagined "revolutionary leaders" before him, Chavez just can't resist the temptation of actually being in a position to effect things.
The temptation to affect events....which you, of course, have no trouble resisting. As usual, your post says more about yourself than anything else.

Anyway, the comparison between Venezuela and Cuba is incredibly thoughtless. The difference is, there was a revolutionary overthrow in Cuba. The capitalist state machine remains intact in Venezuela.

And you, and your guru Redstar before you, have been predicting the imminent collapse of Cuba for years; specifically that the revolutionary government wouldn't outlast Fidel Castro. Well, it has.

You never gave any reason for that prediction, though one can guess it may not be coincidental that this is also the conventional wisdom endlessly promoted by the ruling class. The ruling-class ideas in the air tend to have a profound influence on those disinclined to think for themselves.

But in any case that prediction's been disproved by time and events, so if you want to give the appearance of living on this planet you might want to stop repeating it.

[CheLover]

Originally posted by Severian+September 03, 2007 09:10 am--> (Severian @ September 03, 2007 09:10 am)
[email protected] 02, 2007 11:20 am
Like all self-imagined "revolutionary leaders" before him, Chavez just can't resist the temptation of actually being in a position to effect things.
The temptation to affect events....which you, of course, have no trouble resisting. As usual, your post says more about yourself than anything else.

Anyway, the comparison between Venezuela and Cuba is incredibly thoughtless. The difference is, there was a revolutionary overthrow in Cuba. The capitalist state machine remains intact in Venezuela.

And you, and your guru Redstar before you, have been predicting the imminent collapse of Cuba for years; specifically that the revolutionary government wouldn't outlast Fidel Castro. Well, it has.

You never gave any reason for that prediction, though one can guess it may not be coincidental that this is also the conventional wisdom endlessly promoted by the ruling class. The ruling-class ideas in the air tend to have a profound influence on those disinclined to think for themselves.

But in any case that prediction's been disproved by time and events, so if you want to give the appearance of living on this planet you might want to stop repeating it. [/b]
Severian thanks very much for participating in the post. now loads of people are getting involved :)

[Mkultra]

whereas Chavez may have to work on his public relations skills I think his heart is in the right place which could make his eternal reign the best thing that ever happened to Venezuela

[Sense-A]

CHAVEZ! Chavez SALUTE! Chavez el salvador de venezuela de el mundo todo! heeee haaawwww

[Saint Street Revolution]

Originally posted by CheLover+September 01, 2007 03:24 pm--> (CheLover @ September 01, 2007 03:24 pm)
[email protected] 01, 2007 03:17 pm

It sounds like a very promising step in turning Venezuela into the new Cuba :D

If you are a supporter of the dicatorship of the proletariat and not merely some welfare state, you should not be excited about that at all.
Why? I thought the whole point of the revolution was to further Venezuela from imperialism. [/b]
It is an objective. But the goal of any real Socialist would be to (duh) achieve Socialist Revolution.

Anyway, he seems to be a progressive step, though he lacks Revolutionary theories. His attempt to end term limits is simply so he has more time to continue Revolutionizing Venezuela.

I personally do not favor a Socialist State such as Cuba or (supposedly)future Venezuela, and he should practice real Socialism by giving his power to the Proletariat and putting Socialism into play while he is still in power.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ My big "political superstructure" problem with Chavez is his reliance on the extremely bourgeois institution known as "the presidency" (for a bourgeois institution, even the Westminster model of a collective executive subordinate to the representative legislature isn't that regressive).

There were very good reasons why Lenin didn't like that institution, even while instituting a form of state monopoly capitalism termed "the revolutionary-democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry."

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 05:20 pm
I don't think he thinks in those terms. Obviously I'm speculating, but my guess would be that Chavez geniunely believes that he is "leading the Bolivarian revolution".


He has stated over a million time on his show "alo presidente" that the revolution is not about him. He stated that it not about Chavez, but about the people fighting to end capitalism. He constantly throws that out there. I think he is acting as sort of a vanguard but the criticism that he's not giving as much power as he must to workers is legit.

[Mkultra]

I think socialism should be more based on the free market model

[Faux Real]

Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2007 06:46 pm
I think socialism should be more based on the free market model
What about the free market model and why so?

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by [email protected] 05, 2007 01:46 am
I think socialism should be more based on the free market model
I think you should make a different thread on it and be prepared for whatever responses you get.

[Mkultra]

Originally posted by rev0lt+September 05, 2007 02:33 am--> (rev0lt @ September 05, 2007 02:33 am)
[email protected] 04, 2007 06:46 pm
I think socialism should be more based on the free market model
What about the free market model and why so? [/b]
cause only thru socialism can true competition exist--the capitalism model of "free market" is really just corporate communism

[Mkultra]

Originally posted by bootleg42+September 05, 2007 04:21 am--> (bootleg42 @ September 05, 2007 04:21 am)
[email protected] 05, 2007 01:46 am
I think socialism should be more based on the free market model
I think you should make a different thread on it and be prepared for whatever responses you get. [/b]
I just summed it all up in my post above this one

[VukBZ2005]

I think socialism should be more based on the free market model.

That is the stupidest response I have seen all morning. Real Socialism is a transition period between Capitalism and Communism. Because it is a transition period between a society that is Capitalist and a society that is Communist, it is a stage that is meant to prepare society for Communism.

(A Communist society is a society in which the entire population has effective and direct control over the means of production, in addition to having direct control over the social, cultural and political aspects of their lives - and - when the manufacturing capacity of a nation is totally developed and manufactures on the basis of use and of need, not on profit and surplus-value extraction.)

Therefore, real Socialism and the free market can not ever co-exist, as the free market functions on both the continued validation of the Capitalist means of exchange and as the free market necessarily deteriorates a country's industrial manufacturing base and retards its ability to function in way that subjugates all other sectors of the economy of a country to being dependent on the manufacturing sector.

[Hit The North]

Generally, I support Chavez against his critics on the Left and in the bourgeois media. Nevertheless, I can see little but negative outcomes to this ambition of his (if true) to extend the terms of his Presidency.

It demonstrates the top-down orientation of his politics. Is the Presidency the only position from where Chavez thinks he can affect the course of change?

It illustrates the Bonapartist tendency of Chavez in elevating himself above society and "managing" the class antagonisms of which he fancies himself autonomous from. It also demonstrates his lack of trust in the grass roots movement and the people around him. It's always a bad sign when leaders begin to see themselves as the "chosen one", the indispensable conduit of history.

The assumption of even a "benign dictatorship" will hold back the cause of proletarian revolution.

[Guerrilla22]

Chavez is steering Venezuela more toward the Sandinista mixed economy model than the Cuban model. i'm sure the uS media will have a field day attacking Chavez if term limits are abolished. They already refer to him as a dictator.

[Mkultra]

Im compelled to disagree--the Free market is a socialist concept cause only thru govt regulation can there ever be competition--Capitalism traps all the wealth in the hands of anti-people collectivist Corporations with no loyalty to anything but the bottom line