a couple of questions..

[Refuse]

have there been any countries that have used communism and can be good examples of it striving? im tired of not being able to give an example when people tell me that "communism only looks good on paper" or about how bad russia used to be, etc.

also, somebody once told me they wouldn't ever want to live under a communist/socialist society in place of capitalist because you can't better yourself or live comfortably - my response was he is wrong about not being able to better himself because the harder he and everyone else works the higher everybody's standards are and therefore the better everyone's life will be - was that a good response?

im trying to turn my friends, co workers, classmates and relatives into comrades.

thank you.

[Tatarin]

have there been any countries that have used communism and can be good examples of it striving?

Unfortunately, no. Some say the Soviet Union was kind-of socialist, some say that it was that during Lenin only, and that Stalin destroyed it, and some say that the Soviet Union wasn't socialist at all (either because Russia never went through capitalism or that the bureaucracy did some/many things wrong).

The closest thing you can come to socialism would probably be the Paris Commune.


"communism only looks good on paper"

Well, many things used to look good on paper before. Capitalist democracy did look good during the feudal times, but "it could never work", right?

But in that case, I would reply: "if you think it is good, then why don't you fight for it?"


or about how bad russia used to be, etc.

Everybody keeps pointing to Russia and "socialism" and say how bad it used to be. But, how bad is our world? We vote twice every decade, and most things that goes on in politics today we never have any power to change. We go by and say that privatization and free trade is the only way forward, but is it?

I'm trying to say that we are not much better off than the Russians were during the Soviet Union.


- my response was he is wrong about not being able to better himself because the harder he and everyone else works the higher everybody's standards are and therefore the better everyone's life will be -

He was probably talking about the motivation to do something - but in that case I agree with your answer. And if he means in terms of education, it would be freely aviable to anyone wishing to better themselves.

About the place to live, well, someone will probably give you a better answer. I guess if he means houses then a house would be built, just like if anyone else wants a house on a particular location.

[the-red-under-the-bed]

I think a good respose to how shit russia was is to bring up curent examples of Venezeula and Cuba. While these countries have not achieved socialism they are striving to do so. Both these countries are developing nations, but they can afford free anfd universal education and healthcare. Both these countries are spreading democracy (such as communal councils in Venezeula) and both these nations, despite being poor, help to develop other struggling nations.

Russia turned to shit, thats indisputable, but there are more exciting and more inspirational examples of socialism being created in the world today.

[More Fire for the People]

Historical examples of communism: Indigenous peoples of the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous+peoples+of+the+Americas), Khoikhoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoikhoi), Paris Commune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris+Commune), and Great Railroad Strike of 1877 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great+Railroad+Strike+of+1877).

[BobKKKindle$]

There are many examples of workers' self management, which would be an important characteristic of a communist society - an interesting case study you might want to look at is the Fabricas Recuperadas (recovered factories) movement in Argentina, in particular, the Zanon Collective, a ceramics enterprise that is managed democratically by all those employed there and provides a range of services to the local working class community. These examples demonstrate how bosses and managers are not necessary for society to function and that their wealth is unjustified - workers are capable of organising production independent of hierarchy and control!

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article....07&sectionID=41 (http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=5107&sectionID=41)

[BobKKKindle$]

It is however the 'stateless' factor that confuses me. who would pass legislation? and who would sit in the legislature? who keeps law and order? represent the state on an international scale? I do believe a central government (obviously a leftist one). I no the argument is that this inevitably creates a ruling class....but i just feel a state needs representatives to discuss the nations direction, economically and diplomatically.

When Marxists speak about a 'state' they mean an instrument of class oppression, that exists in order to maintain the position of the ruling class in society through commanding 'bodies of armed men' (the army, for example) who can use armed force against those who try and challenge the capitalist system. When classes no longer exist, these 'bodies of armed men' will have no clear function and so, in Marxist terms, the state will dissappear.

What you are referring to - taking decisions and developing policy etc - is not what defines the state as such and these important activities and processes would still continue in a communist (and socialist) society.

On the question of law and order, though, not all Leftists are in agreement - some contend that some form of police force will be necessary, and that this force should be more democratic and accountable to local communities. Other would say that most, if not all crimes, are the result of capitalist society and that there should be no such force in a communist society, and that if crime does occur, the pressure of social criticism and isolation will make sure the individual does not repeat or moves to another locality.

[BobKKKindle$]

To further add to what I said previously; with reagrd to the decision-making process, most socialists contend that, for a range of reasons, existing institutions cannot really be described as democratic and advocate radical changes to how society is organised politically - a greater emphasis on the importance and role of individual communities and enterprises, and the ability to recall all officials who no longer seem to put forward the demands of their electorate.

In my previous post I mentioned how when classes no longer exist, the state will also no longer exist - what diffrentiates Socialism from Communism is that, under Socialism a state will still be required - not because we like class society and want to maintain any system of social inequality, but because after the revolution classes will still exist, insofar as that the former bourgeoisie will try and regain power by waging war against the proletariat - if you have read about the Russian Revolution you will know that after the October revolution, a civil war began, during which Socialist Russia was attacked by many external and internal forces. This is what is meant by 'class struggle' under Socialism.

Hope that helps :)

Are you a member of a political party in the UK out of interest?

[BobKKKindle$]

On the issue of law and order, I agree that there will still have to be some form of community police force - but I would also argue that prisons - in the sense of facilities for the internment and punishement of convicted prisoners - should be abolished and replaced with rehabilitation centres or social programs, as I believe that crime arises from socio-economic conditions or psychological problems, and that it is generally unfair to hold individuals fully accountable to their decisions by imposing harsh penalties and limiting their freedom of movement.

I am indeed in a party - The Socialist Workers' Party which is a member of the RESPECT coalition - although I am currently living overseas - I am a secondary school student expat in Hong Kong and so am not really politically active. Although obviously I support my own party, which party, if any, you join is really your own decision - good choice on quiting labour though!

[Janus]

also, somebody once told me they wouldn't ever want to live under a communist/socialist society in place of capitalist because you can't better yourself or live comfortably - my response was he is wrong about not being able to better himself because the harder he and everyone else works the higher everybody's standards are and therefore the better everyone's life will be - was that a good response?
There is always an opportunity to better oneself and that is something that almost everyone strives for. Communism will help to provide that opportunity as well as the ability for everyone to live relatively comfortably.


It is however the 'stateless' factor that confuses me.
There is no longer some sort of formal, central state apparatus.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

Maybe the best real example migth be "Anarchist Catalonia."

[Janus]

would there however be a body of representatives? on a national scale that is
It's certainly possible for economic cooperation and communication but I doubt that it would be needed for political representation. I would imagine communism would ultimately unfold in a society where technological advances have made production and decision making/discussion so easy and simple that these spheres would become extremely informal and resistant to control/representation.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30, 2007 03:58 pm
have there been any countries that have used communism and can be good examples of it striving?
Well there are three examples of Libertarian-communism working (on a vast scale) that come to mind.

Ukraine from 1917, 1921, under the Anarchist-Communist, Makhno, there was a nation wide system of democratic soviets and peopels councils. Eventually crushed by trotsky. Further Reading (http://libcom.org/history/1917-1921-the-ukrainian-makhnovist-movement)

Korea 1929 - 1931. The Korean Anarchist Federation lead by Kim Jwa Jin (The "Korean Makhno") founded a rebel state in the Shinmin province. Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jwa_Jin)

And Spain, 1936-1939. When the CNT (National Workers Committee) anarchist union, along with the FAI (Anarchist FEderation of Iberia) took and held a vast quantity of Catalonias industry and farms, and fought against the fascists on the Aragon front for the entire civil war.

Further reading (http://libcom.org/intro/spanish-civil-war)