Since when did the class struggle become a phase?

[R_P_A_S]

this could possible not belong in this forum. BUT maybe I'm discriminating against those who opt not to take in activism or just be part of the the class struggle and spread class consciousness.

I understand it's hard to be a 24/7 revolutionary. specially if you are drowned in debt and other obligations. But there's always time and opportunities to be revolutionary and be involved. We have a responsibility here people! the minute you understand the ills of the capitalist system and recognize that a better world can come about only with it's destructions you have a job, a duty to your fellow human beings to let them know, to be active and participate in any social movement.

There was a 'comrade' on this forums. who used to post frequently. he was one of the more well read and articulate ones. I became AIM buddies with him. we would have good lengthly conversations about history, Marxism and other related topics. He was a few years younger than me and I thought it was very cool that someone at his age was so socially conscious and intelligent in this issues. I must say this person clarify many things for me and recommended excellent reads.

One day he told me he was no longer a Marxist, or a revolutionary at that. matter of fact he decided to hang up Politics and all he learned and instead pursuit a social life, girls, parties, and friends. something he claims left wing politics had alienated him from a "normal" typical teenage life.

I respect his decision. I took it as. "he needs a break, he is young" no problem.

but then along came the new my space page, the depress,emo pictures on the bathroom mirror, the annoying bulletins "new pics guys! please comment" (every couple of days)
the pointless surveys 13 year old girls fill out on my space chain letters and such.

what the fuck happened here? I contact it him a couple of weeks ago and asked him a general questions about the Russian Revolution. something he was pretty much an expert on. and he told me he forgot. HE FORGOT? how can you forget something you were so passionate about a month ago?

I feel a bit insulted. but maybe I have no right to? But help me understand this. How does one person go from knowing and understanding the injustices of the world and the cause of oppression and being so well read and socially conscious, passionate about indigenous people and their struggle to just saying. "I don't care, and I forgot"

I felt like he was spitting on the face of those people and just anyone out there hanging on to socialism and communist as their only hope. like it was some teenage phase and now its not cool anymore. what fuck?

comments?

[Terminator X]

Sadly, it probably is a phase for a lot of people, especially a kid as young as this. How old are we talking here? If a 14-year-old is calling himself a revolutionary, then I don't blame him for girls and social life getting in the way.

I mean, at 14, I had no idea what my political beliefs were or how I intended to change the world. Maybe this kid will revisit his beliefs in college or after he gets into the working world and sees firsthand how fucked up things can be. I wouldn't give up on him.

[counterblast]

"...I did not believe that a Cause which stood for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy... I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to became a nun, and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it."

[Terminator X]

Great quote. Who said it?

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2007 04:22 am
"...I did not believe that a Cause which stood for release and freedom from conventions and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy... I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to became a nun, and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it."
i live life and have joy lol. what did i come off as a bitter asshole? I was just asking a question.

[Raúl Duke]

I suppose he was one of those who "burnt out" rather quickly...

People tend to be demoralized when it seems your message isn't getting across,especially in this time of reaction.

This leads, I think, to like a "surrender" and you just "conform".

In my school there aren't many (more like none, but my school is big and weird...you could go through it without knowing about everybody) progressive people (actually there are more conservatives) and they're not very open (or they don't care) to my ideas (however, when I have the chance to voice an opinion I do).

However...maybe he might take up again revolutionary politics (who knows?)....

[Tower of Bebel]

You are a full time revolutionary when you're are very active, well informed and when you enjoy life at the same time. you must combine daily life with revolutionary activities. You should not destroy one part of your life in order to keep the other aspect.

Class struggle is not a phase in your life, even people who give up being a revolutionary because they changed their minds were not real revolutionaries at all. People who say they need a break can be understood. That's with everything you do. If you study all day, without joy, who wouldn't want to take a break?

[which doctor]

I think a lot of it depends on how people get into revolutionary (anti)politics.

[Comrade Rage]

I hate to knock anarchism (no wait I don't) but it has become a commodified culture. There are so many pieces of corporate clothing that have the :AO: on them it seems that it has been hijacked by suburban middleclass kids. No disrespect to anarchists themselves, but your symbol seems to have been perverted.

[LSD]

There was a 'comrade' on this forums. who used to post frequently. he was one of the more well read and articulate ones.

(...)

One day he told me he was no longer a Marxist, or a revolutionary at that. matter of fact he decided to hang up Politics and all he learned and instead pursuit a social life, girls, parties, and friends. something he claims left wing politics had alienated him from a "normal" typical teenage life.

(...)

what the fuck happened here?

He changed.

People do that, especially when they're going through adolescence or other tumultuous periods. Politics used to be a priority in his life, but now they no longer are.

That may be unfortunate from an objective political sense, certainly it can be disheartening for someone like yourself who enjoyed and valued your political discussions. But there's actually nothing particularly unsual about it, nor even anything that suprising.

Anyone familiar with the history of political movements knows that members come and go all the time, sometimes they even switch over to groups that only months before they would have considered their mortal political opponents.

Remember, many of the founders of the neo-conservative movement were former Trotskyists, even more were former leftists in the broad sense of that word. Is that because they were "fake" leftists? Because they never "really understood" leftism? ...possibly, but my bet is that they were just as "true" to their leftism as your I.

The fact is humans aren't cold logic machines, we don't become leftists or rightists or anything else simply because the "facts" point us in that direction. Sure, most of us labour to get things right most of the time, and we like to know that our conclusions are based on something solid.

But for the vast majority of people, the resons that we get involved in any sort of politics is ultimately emotional. Either because the issues directly touch us in some way, or because they trigger some sort of reaction.

There are many ways to trigger a reaction, however, and they are not nescessarily on the same side of what we so naively call the "political spectrum". That's why we see Trotkyists becomeing neo-conservatives, and former Mods of this board becoming capitalists.

In the case of the member in question, I don't even know that his political views have changed -- that is, while he's indicated that he no longer prioritizes politics, you haven't given any indication that he's actually shifted his views on any political question. But even if they have, it's hardly cause for distress.

Indeed, on the contrary, I would say that it's eminently typical.


how can you forget something you were so passionate about a month ago?

Memory's a funny thing, especially for stuff like facts or other impersonal information.

When something stops being important to you and you stop thinking about it regularly, it starts to slip away. I can't count the number of things I've forgotten over the years that at one time I considered essential.

Incidently, that's why so much of the formal education system is such nonsense. All that rote memorization does is exersize your short-term memory. I certainly don't remember most of what I learned in high school, and I doubt you do either.

And yet, of course, at the time I wrote the test, I'm sure that knowing how to "buffer a salt solution" was paramount in my thoughts.


I understand it's hard to be a 24/7 revolutionary. specially if you are drowned in debt and other obligations. But there's always time and opportunities to be revolutionary and be involved. We have a responsibility here people! the minute you understand the ills of the capitalist system and recognize that a better world can come about only with it's destructions you have a job, a duty to your fellow human beings to let them know, to be active and participate in any social movement.

That's actually an entirely different issue from the one you brought up previously.

The person who's a self-declared revolutionary and yet does not get actively involved is quite distinct from the person who no longer considers himself a revolutionary.

That is, while the former can be called a hypocrite for advocating active involvement and yet not heeding his own advice; the latter is being entirely consistant.

Someone who doesn't prioritize politics isn't going to get involved with politics. Why would they? People only do things if they have a reason to.

As for the "responsibility" that a current leftist has to be active in "social movements" (whatever you mean by that term), I think that there's a certain degree of propaganda going on here.

After all, the reality is that no degree of individual participation is going to single-handedly "revolutionize" anything. Obviously collective action is predicated on individual action and so for political reasons, it's not a good idea to encourage apathy.

But political inclinations are based on opinions, not actions. You can criticize someone for not being active enough, but I don't think it ultimately speaks to their politics, it just speaks to their behaviour.


Class struggle is not a phase in your life, even people who give up being a revolutionary because they changed their minds were not real revolutionaries at all.

That, or they were real revolutionaries and just changed their minds.

Not even Trotsky himself would deny that Stalin was a revolutionary, and yet look what he turned into.

That's an extreme example to be sure, but there are millions of examples of people altering fundamental aspects of their politics, not because they were "fake" or "ignorant" but just because the motivating factors changed.

Again, people aren't robots, we make our decisions and opinions on a myriad of factors, most of them not ultimately having to do with the dictates of logic. It may not be particularly "Marxist", but it's the nature of being human.


I hate to knock anarchism (no wait I don't) but it has become a commodified culture. There are so many pieces of corporate clothing that have the :AO: on them it seems that it has been hijacked by suburban middleclass kids. No disrespect to anarchists themselves, but your symbol seems to have been perverted.

As opposed to what? Che Guevara? :lol:

Really, what symbol hasn't been hijacked? People are always on the look out for powerful imagery, and a history of radical usage carries with it a great deal of political power.

That's why the Stalinist regimes cloaked themselves in the red flag; it's why the Chinese government still calls itself the "Communist party". Co-option is just a part of political life, there's really nothing that can be done about it.

And blaming Anarchists in particular stinks of needless sectarian needling.


this could possibly not belong in this forum.

"Possibly"? How about certainly.

Moved to Learning...

[R_P_A_S]

I gotta admit.

I was confused. I don't dislike this person. or thing he or she is "bad." it was just a dramatic 180.

[Demogorgon]

Communism and related outlooks are regarded as "extremist" in western society. I don't regard it as extreme personally. I regard it as a very sensible position for anyone who is not a member of the bourgoisie to take and one that should be considered common sense rather than out there. Nonetheless it is regarded as extreme and that makes it attractive to teenagers and assorted odd balls who just want to shock. 90% of these people will move on after a short period of time and either go into the mainstream or into some other extreme political movement.

A few months ago we had a guy in OI, can't remember his username, think he is banned now anyway, who had been a Communist, then a fascist and then a Libertarian (close to anarcho-capitalist). In his Libertarian guise he was spouting out their usual slogans and I was sure he didn't understand them or why real Libertarians and anarcho-capitalists believe what they do. And I would be willing to put money on the assertion that he ahdn't understood Communism or fascism either. He was just looking for a series of xtreme outlooks to satisfy himself with.

We get plenty of people like that here and not just in OI. I see a lot of kids here, and they can stick around for a year or two, who obviously don't have the first clue what they are talking about and are just looking for an extreme outlook. Sometimes these kids are in their thirties :lol: I don't think we should take people like that seriously.

On the othe rhand most of the younger members here are serious members in my book and will keep their views, some may soften their views of course but most will remain left wing all their lives. I have been on the left ever since I was old enough to know what the left was (we are talking about ten years old here) and while my views have obviously matured greatly since then, I have never held any other outlook. And I suspect the vast majority of our young members are the same. A few though will sadly abandon us.

[The-Spark]

Who knows, maybe he or she just isnt finding the same happiness they once did in communism.

[funkmasterswede]

I have had an experience that parallels RPAS but to a differing degree. A good friend of mine was a staunch leftist from the time that he began to understand and express his political views. However, recently he has given up on the outlook for all intents and purposes. While he does still see it as a noble ideal in some sense, he now considers himself to be apathetic to the whole process. And his argument is a valid and convincing one and that is that the left is extremely sectarian.

The amount of time that leftists will spend quibbling over relatively insignificant detail is quite astonishing. This is essentially what caused him to be apathetic. He told me that he no longer cared as he saw no chance for necessary changes as the rest of the people on the left would never compromise and try to change the situation in a way that did not fit into their very specified and narrow worldview.

[marxist_ghost]

well we all have got just one life to live. young age also never returns. maybe he doesn't want to regret it that he couldn't enjoy his life because of a cause, whose fruits he can't see in this lifetime.

[Red Scare]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 25, 2007 02:24 pm
I hate to knock anarchism (no wait I don't) but it has become a commodified culture. There are so many pieces of corporate clothing that have the :AO: on them it seems that it has been hijacked by suburban middleclass kids. No disrespect to anarchists themselves, but your symbol seems to have been perverted.
i know suburban middleclass kids just become anarchists or communists because they think it is cool, but does that mean that suburban kids cannot be dedicated revolutionaries?

[Ricardo]

well, the same thing happened to me, i'm 18, and for the past like 4 or 5 months i haven't done anything political, gained a social life, forgot pretty much everything i learned about communism and anarchism, even stopped watching the daily show. I'm going to major in political science and i start in four days and i forgot everything. This sounds pretty stupid probably, but once i read the new Harry Potter, with the talk of revolution and stuff in it, i'm trying to re-learn everything. So i guess what i'm saying is maybe the kid will come around.

[VukBZ2005]

Hmm.

Very hard to say. I think it develops out of certain things.

The first thing that it may have developed out of is whether or not he thought of it as a hobby, as a time-killer, like the sub-context of your post puts it RPAS. You know, there can be people who may be well articulated and elaborated about revolutionary ideas, but the fact of the matter is that all of that only means something if they are able to grasp the information that they read and if they are able to conceptualize it within the context of their own reality. The failure to grasp what they read and the failure to put it within the context of the reality that they live in will cause them to view it in a fuzzy and ultimately isolated perspective of reality. Working class revolutionary struggle is not a separate function from the rest of everyday life. It is a intuitive part of it and arises from it. If this person did not realize that, then that means that he was actually flirting and thinking about the idea, but ended up de-contextualizing himself from things that he once professed, or claimed to have professed and has thus, ended up renouncing something that he never really understood, even though he may have been informed about it.

And the second thing that it may have developed out of is falling prey to certain aspects of this society and a failure to finding the right kind of balance between what that individual perceives as being a social life and what he perceives as revolutionary politics. Sometimes, you may be well articulated, but that does not mean that one is not, how should I say, immune from what they perceive has "having a life", or rather, what this society perceives as having a life and how it imposes that perception upon the psychologically weakest of individuals, especially those that are between the ages of 13 and 18. Since this society has ways of making humans consume without even noticing it (the power of advertisements is something that can not be understated), the needs of human beings to socialize, to communicate, to fulfill the functions of procreation are extremely powerful, because they are essential to the continuation and perpetuation of the human species and have been used by this society to coax the young (especially the adolescent) and to cause them to think in a fashion that allows them to sell off their labor-power without hesitation when they become fully mature, which actually occurs at the age of 18, but in a social sense, when they have become a part of the symphony of disunity and alienation. Therefore, this individual may have been weak, because of the pressure of which this society enforces upon those who not have necessary "facilities" to handle that pressure, especially him it seems. Thus, for the young working class revolutionary to develop the "facilities" necessary to resist this kind of pressure, he or she must find a good enough balance to develop what he or she desires from the social interactions that do not necessarily have anything to do with revolutionary working class struggle and from the social interactions that actually have something to do with revolutionary working class struggle. And even if one lacks the material basis for such a development of the necessary "facilities" to occur and, if you are a young working class revolutionary, I strongly advise you to do so when it is realistically possible. It is the mature and rational thing to do. Otherwise, you might end up being somebody that RPAS or I will talk about in the future and I do not wish to see that happen and, from what I can see, neither does RPAS.

i will have more to say about this, but I wish to see the comments of everyone else that may have something to discuss on this topic first.

[La Comédie Noire]

All I can say to that is apathy is a luxury and he has decided to use it.

[R_P_A_S]

some of you guys pretty much hit the nail in the coffin.
despite being articulate and close to a genius on communist theory and history he could not apply it anywhere. nor was he in contact with oppression and working class people.

[redarmyleader]

Well, this is also a perfect example of why you need organization. Yeah, people change their minds all the time, but the proletariat must work hard to keep its class conscious fighters because, unlike the bourgeoisie, we cannot easily reproduce replacements when people in the movement leaves.

I have been involved in politics since I was 17 (you can actually read why and how I became a revolutionary here (http://360.yahoo.com/antidurhing)). I definitely have seen people leave. But the people I saw leave did not always do it because they could not deal with the difficulties of capitalist society and reaction, for quiting politics just means you are guaranteeing yourself a life of misery. I have seen comrades leave because they were not prepared to deal with victories that we were able to achieve, becomes victory can present just as many challenges as defeat. I have been able to stay because of a number of things, but being in an organization where you feel accountable to people, and people to you, have made a real difference in my continuation of political life, cause sometimes I have been on shaky grounds.

When you decide to become a revolutionary, its not a decision you make just once. Different stages of the class struggle and your own life present you with the question time and time again. Because I have a revolutionary theory that enables me to understand the world around me I can be confident in what the future can bring, and to what I can help make it be. Because of this theory it also mean that I am orientated in activity and issues that can actually beat back the capitalist offensive taking place. For me building a new civil rights movement that has sprung up in defense of affirmative action and integration programs, and immigrant rights has given me the connection with people in this society that lets me know there are people who want to fight.

But having comrades who can whip my ass and not take my bullshit is extremely helpful. The whole I need a social life argument is so played out that it is ridiculous. It is just an excuse people say to justify either their pessimism or fear of taking on more responsibility. Whichever one it is, it is the duty of comrades to try to combat that. I have had comrades who left, but I have also had comrades who have stayed because the fight was made with them. I also know you can have a social life and be a revolutionary. It is not easy, but doable. And coming from a person who enjoys sex, and has it on occasion (but never with comrades or people organizing with cause I want to keep professional relationship with them and make sure they develop politically) with groups if possible, it can work.

Life can be shitty. I know people who are teenagers who have to deal with fucked out situations like having to work to feed themselves, or having crazy ass parents. But they, like me (cause my life has been definitely up and down), have dedicated themselves to struggle because it is the only way they know that can actually put a stop to the shit they have to go through; because in the end, capitalism is the reason for our collective misery.

In the end, people decide for themselves (and must) what they do with their lives. But if you have an organization and a political perspective that can be acted upon the decision to become a professional revolutionary is all the more easier. And I repeat, that I correct political perspective is necessary. All activity is not good activity.

Oh, and of course some people see politics as a way to get laid, or look cool. Don't worry about those folks cause history has a place for them.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by [email protected] 02, 2007 04:23 pm
some of you guys pretty much hit the nail in the coffin.
despite being articulate and close to a genius on communist theory and history he could not apply it anywhere. nor was he in contact with oppression and working class people.
So, that brings out the obvious question; is he working class? If he is, then he needs to understand that his reality is interdependent on class struggle in every aspect, whether it is unconscious or conscious and that he needs to be more psychologically connected to his class. If he is not working class and is either a Small Capitalist or a Capitalist, then, it is obvious why that happened. His class interests conflicts with that of the working class and in addition to the situations that I described, ultimately resulted in drawing him away from something he was totally separated upon from the beginning.