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Random Precision
24th August 2007, 23:56
During the 20th century, we saw examples of many socialist/communist movements who ended up taking control of their countries, with the goal of establishing socialism.

The first such movement, and the one which would more or less set the precedent for socialist revolutionaries around the world, was that of the Bolsheviks in Russia. I would argue that their revolution was successful in establishing socialism up to a point, but the progress was limited by various factors outside their control, the Russian Civil War and its side effects being the perennial example. Anarchists and others will disagree with this statement, but it has already been incessantly debated for so long that I do not feel the urge to back up my claims in this thread.

But I digress. Call it what you will, the Russian Revolution was the first example the world had seen of socialism on a large scale. I and most others tend to believe that the most important feature of socialism in practice is workers' self-management, and there was no shortage of that especially in the revolution's initial stages. I believe that this was possible because of the strong roots that the Bolsheviks had within the working class. Essentially, the Russian Revolution was a revolution by the workers. The moment the Bolsheviks lost the connection with the workers was when they stopped carrying the struggle for socialism forward, and the new bureaucratic class that emerged from within the party would act in its own interests rather than the interest of the proletariat.

Anarchists and Marxists have spent the last century debating at what point this happened, so I'll try to circumvent that debate as well. But the point is this: eventually the USSR DID degenerate, I would argue the complete degeneration occurred during Stalin's rule. I do not believe that anyone yet has made a successful case that workers' self-management was a widespread practice under Stalin, but I as with all other things I stand open to correction.

Now, I do not believe that any revolution has been successful in the goal establishing socialism since the Russian Revolution, with the exception of the one in Spain, which I'll discuss later. I believe that this was essentially because no revolution since then has had a fundamentally proletarian character. Understand here that I speak of revolutions that were successful in taking control of their countries. All successful socialist revolutions in the 20th century, with the exceptions of those in Russia and Spain, would fail in establishing socialism because they lacked the proletarian character that I believe is necessary. If there were any other proletarian revolutions I have missed, please let me know.

I said before that the Spanish Revolution was the exception to the failures of socialist revolutions in the 20th century since the Russian example. I believe the revolution in Spain was perhaps even more successful than the revolution in Russia at establishing socialism, and find its gains to be, once again, because of its proletarian character. But unlike the revolution in Russia, I believe that the one in Spain failed because of poor leadership. From the moment the CNT refused to seize power in Catalonia, and left the bourgeois state apparatus in its place, their revolution was doomed. I am aware that the CNT later regretted this decision and proposed dispensing with the republican government, but the fact remains that they were unwilling (or unable) to take action for that goal, and so their revolution was crushed.

Besides the Russian and Spanish Revolutions, I do not believe that there has been one victorious socialist revolution that had a fundamentally proletarian character, and this is why I believe they failed to establish socialism. I will illustrate this point with various examples.

One popular method that has put socialist movements in power all over the world has been guerilla warfare. The pre-eminent examples of this is China, as well as various insurgencies in Latin America. One such Latin American movement that ended up victorious was in Cuba.

I am by no means an expert on the revolution in China, but I do know that Mao's movement was largely composed of peasants, and also that his revolution did not establish workers' self-management through soviets or any other method. I have seen this testified to by supporters of Mao in my debates with them. The foremost example of socialism during the Chinese revolution that Maoists frequently cite is the Cultural Revolution. I would argue that its origin was a bureaucratic struggle by Mao to regain power in the CCP, and that the "revolution" itself was nothing more than a farce perpetrated with those aims in mind. The only concrete example of socialism (if it may be so called) during that period was the Shanghai Commune, which Mao soon abandoned.

The revolution in Cuba, on the other hand, was carried out by an elite of guerilla warriors, which did not originate from and in the main had little connection with the proletariat. I am, as always, open to correction, but I have not heard of many examples of workers' self-management, the central tenet of socialism, in the Cuban Revolution either.

Another way that tried to establish socialism was through the military. This occurred in many countries of Eastern Europe after the second world war. Essentially, what happened in Eastern Europe was that the Red Army took control of the country, and then proceeded to hand it over to the local Communist Party. This method succeeded in establishing a state apparatus similar to the Stalinist UUSR, and as with the USSR there was a lack of workers' self-management. I am aware of the experiments in self-management that were conducted in Tito's Yugoslavia, but these were quite limited in scope and more or less remained under the direct control of the marshal.

The final method through which 20th century socialist movements have tried to establish socialism is through control of the bourgeoisie state apparatus. The most notable example of this was Chile under Salvador Allende. While his movement was much more successful than most reformist parties in other countries, it still did not go nearly far enough in trying to establish socialism, and once it had taken a few tentative steps in the direction of socialism, it was overthrown by the military. President Allende showed the failure of reformism in that conflict when he refused to arm the workers who were ready and willing to defend him and his movement. I believe Hugo Chavez in Venezuela will face a similar crisis, and quite soon if he means to really establish socialism. The fact to be learned here is that the bourgeoisie will never allow their own state apparatus to be used for the benefit of another class. I believe that this is important so as to establish what kind of revolution is necessary, let alone a proletarian revolution. Just a way to cover all the bases.

To conclude: my thesis, derived from the central tenets of Marxism, is that a proletarian revolution is necessary to establish socialism, and the classless society of communism later on. Two examples of this, although their positive and progressive effects were short-lived, are the revolutions in Russia and Spain. All other victorious socialist revolutions have failed in establishing socialism, I would argue, because they lacked the necessary proletarian character. This is not to say that I dismiss those revolutions altogether, indeed for the most part they have made great strides in the area of social welfare especially. But they have not succeeded in establishing socialism, most noticeably the central feature of workers' self-management. There have been, generally, three different ways which have failed to establish socialism during the 20th century: the guerrilla struggle, as practiced (although in quite different forms) in China and Latin America, a foreign army giving power to the communists, as occurred in the Eastern Bloc countries, and finally the reformist attempts to establish socialism, practiced most notably in Allende's Chile. I put forth that all these revolutions failed to establish socialism because they lacked sufficient proletarian character, or in the case of Allende, because he was unwilling to take power out of the hands of the bourgeois state.

At this point, I stand open to constructive criticism, as I certainly have a few gaps as far as theory is concerned. Also, I know my historical analysis will be harshly criticized by Stalinists, but I would still like to know their thoughts. Also, anarchists might have some problems with my overview of the Russian and Spanish revolutions, but I'd prefer to leave both of those debates to the History forum.

So, what do you think? Is a proletarian revolution the only way to establish socialism, as I believe? Or can it be done other ways?

RGacky3
26th August 2007, 02:29
Ultimately I think your right, obviously Socialism is very broad, but if your talking about genuine Socialism then yeah I agree, of coarse people could go off and form their own communes, but thats a completely different issue.

It also depends what you mean by a proletarian revolution, the Zapatista uprising was'nt really a proletarian one, it was mostly a peasents one, and I believe they are achieving genuine Socialism in their areas, also their revolution was'nt really a revolution in a complete sense, meaning it did'nt overthrow the state or even challenge its authority, it was more of an autonomous uprising, meaning they want to be left alone, which I believe is just as good. Also if you mean violent revolutoin I don't think that that is always the case, for example I think that a general strike could easily turn into a non-violent revolutoin that could achieve Socialism.

As Far as Hugo Chavez and poeple like Evo Morales goes we'll have too see, but I am very skeptical, first because I know how hostile both foriegn and local capitalists are to something like that, and its hard to see how someone working in a system like that could revolutoinize it, even with the best of intentions, one probably always has to be pragmatic in that situation. But I'm not ruling them out totally.

Random Precision
26th August 2007, 03:44
Thanks for responding!


Ultimately I think your right, obviously Socialism is very broad, but if your talking about genuine Socialism then yeah I agree, of coarse people could go off and form their own communes, but thats a completely different issue.

Yea, I'm talking here about socialism on a large scale.


It also depends what you mean by a proletarian revolution, the Zapatista uprising was'nt really a proletarian one, it was mostly a peasents one, and I believe they are achieving genuine Socialism in their areas, also their revolution was'nt really a revolution in a complete sense, meaning it did'nt overthrow the state or even challenge its authority, it was more of an autonomous uprising, meaning they want to be left alone, which I believe is just as good.

I know practically nothing about the Zapatistas, so thank you for educating me. I'd be very interested to see what kind of system they're developing in the areas they control. Do you know anything else about that?


Also if you mean violent revolutoin I don't think that that is always the case, for example I think that a general strike could easily turn into a non-violent revolutoin that could achieve Socialism.

Well, sure, as long as the bourgeois state apparatus is swept aside in the process. I'm all for avoiding violence if at all possible, which it usually isn't. Almost always the bourgeoisie will respond to workers trying to seize power with violence, and so the workers must be ready and willing to respond with violence.


As Far as Hugo Chavez and poeple like Evo Morales goes we'll have too see, but I am very skeptical, first because I know how hostile both foriegn and local capitalists are to something like that, and its hard to see how someone working in a system like that could revolutoinize it, even with the best of intentions, one probably always has to be pragmatic in that situation. But I'm not ruling them out totally.

I agree, it's a contradictory situation that we'll have to observe very carefully as it develops. It does seem like they're accomplishing a lot, but of course that can always be swept aside by the bourgeoisie through the military, as has happened in the past, or marginalized by the leaders of the struggle itself, as can happen with reformist movements. I think one thing that's interesting about the current socialist developments occurring in Latin America is that in Venezuela, it seems as if Chavez is very much in charge of the revolution and decides where it will go next, etc. whereas similar developments are occurring in Bolivia and Ecuador, but their leaders have much less control over the process. When it comes to a truly revolutionary situation, by which I mean when people are ready to overthrow the bourgeois state, in those three countries, I think the Venezuelan revolution is more likely to fail than the others, because it's controlled by one man, whereas those in Bolivia and Ecuador have more of a proletarian character.

Dominicana_1965
26th August 2007, 04:06
The revolution in Cuba, on the other hand, was carried out by an elite of guerilla warriors, which did not originate from and in the main had little connection with the proletariat. I am, as always, open to correction, but I have not heard of many examples of workers' self-management, the central tenet of socialism, in the Cuban Revolution either.


The guerilla warriors you are referring to were for the most part from a proletarian/peasant background after the Granma landing.

There is self-management in Cuba where the workers democratically run their workplaces and the same applies to local problems (CDRs). The people elect delegates that will attend municipal, provincial & national assemblies. The Cuban people also elect temporary judges that will judge a case in a local area. The provincial assembly is elected by a specific committee (forgot the name) that will elect delegates to the provincial assembly, if the delegates chosen by this committee aren't preferred by the already existing municipal assembly it can get recalled by the municipal assembly. Reason for this is because the committee is trying to make sure that the people don't overlook any better qualified delegates because they are too busy with something else. People can get rid of any elected delegate if he/she fails to do a good job (lazy, lets complaints pile up, etc). The National Assembly is made up of delegates chosen by the people, workers of course, organizations & federations, etc. The Communist Party does not direct the state and can not introduce candidates to none of the elections. Soldiers also have a say in the proletarian democracy of Cuba and are encouraged to vote.


Overall theres much more detail but my point is that Cuba is a true proletarian state.


But yes I would agree that it is nearly impossible to maintain a Socialist state without the direct influence of the proletarians. The Bolivarian Revolution seems to be heading in a correct path with the PSUV formation and the Socialist Battalions that have a deep proletarian background. As far as a Allende replay...I doubt it because Venezuela seems to be building its defenses. Somebody correct me if Im wrong but I heard something about a "Communal Army" or some type of communal defense that is the alternative of the Venezuelan army.

syndicat
26th August 2007, 15:54
the leaders of the Cuban revolution were not from the working class, more from a student base. there was a general strike backed by the Revolutionary Sugar Workers Union. A leader of that union, David Santiago, was elected the president of the Cuban Workers Confederation after the revolution, when the corrupt old guard were thrown out. But after Communists were installed at the CTC at the insistence of Fidel, Santiago's commitment to worker democracy ultimately got him sent to prison for a long time. This is all discussed in Victor Alba's history of the labor movement of Latin America. There was also a revolutionary leadership of the food and transport unions in Habana. The food workers union was anarcho-syndicalist. The leadership of the transport union were Trotskyists. they ultimately either ended up in prison or had to flee into exile. There is no workers self-management of industry in Cuba. There was in fact no proletarian revolution.

RGacky3
26th August 2007, 20:30
The guerilla warriors you are referring to were for the most part from a proletarian/peasant background after the Granma landing.

It does'nt matter really what background they had, they could have all been Homeless before the revolution, but they were still a small elite group.


I know practically nothing about the Zapatistas, so thank you for educating me. I'd be very interested to see what kind of system they're developing in the areas they control. Do you know anything else about that?

Theres a couple books you can read about it, John Ross has written a couple books. The funny thing about the Zapatistas is as a group they were, like the Cubans, a group of guerilla revolutionaries, but because they never took power, and instead gave authority to the local councils things turned out different.


I think the Venezuelan revolution is more likely to fail than the others, because it's controlled by one man, whereas those in Bolivia and Ecuador have more of a proletarian character

I completely agree, and one man is not a good safty net, power corrupts.


As far as a Allende replay...I doubt it because Venezuela seems to be building its defenses. Somebody correct me if Im wrong but I heard something about a "Communal Army" or some type of communal defense that is the alternative of the Venezuelan army.

Yeah, and the situation is different, the Cold war is no longer going on, so it would be much harder for the United States to get away with something like that, also the United States already has a big PR problem in Latin America and a violent attack on Venezuela would kill its PR. What the United States is trying to do, is pain Venezuela as a dictatorship, which its also having a hard time doing.

One of the main fears for me is a Centralized body taking over authority in the revoltion "in the name of" the Masses, thats what kills true Socialism. So for a proletarian revolution to be genuine it has to never allow centralized authority.

Random Precision
26th August 2007, 20:38
The Bolivarian Revolution seems to be heading in a correct path with the PSUV formation and the Socialist Battalions that have a deep proletarian background. As far as a Allende replay...I doubt it because Venezuela seems to be building its defenses. Somebody correct me if Im wrong but I heard something about a "Communal Army" or some type of communal defense that is the alternative of the Venezuelan army.

Maybe, but I think right now the fate of the Venezuelan Revolution is tied up too much with one man for my liking. Plus there's the ever present problems with global capitalism, as represented by the United States, that it will eventually have to face. I think the PSUV and related measures will have the effect, if they have not yet, of just taking more power away from the trade union movement and the larger proletarian class. Considering that, I'm still optimistic, but very cautiously so at this point.

And I hear that there's now a colony of rich Venezuelans in Miami, similar to the Cubans when that revolution rolled around. It's always a good sign when the bourgeoisie start fleeing.

(Just as a side note... why would anyone name their socialist revolution after Bolivar? He was so conservative that he makes George Washington look like a communist!)

CornetJoyce
26th August 2007, 20:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 07:38 pm
(Just as a side note... why would anyone name their socialist revolution after Bolivar?
Why would a socialist revolutionary edit a paper called The Spark, which alluded to the Decembrists who were Bolivar's contemporaries and whose major concern was the succession to the Romanov throne?

Random Precision
26th August 2007, 21:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 07:48 pm
Why would a socialist revolutionary edit a paper called The Spark, which alluded to the Decembrists who were Bolivar's contemporaries and whose major concern was the succession to the Romanov throne?
Did Trotsky in fact give it that name?

I'll admit, that name didn't make much sense either. But it was just the name of a newspaper, not an official name for a whole revolutionary process. Plus, a name like "the Spark" has broader connotations than just an allusion to the Decembrist revolt.

CornetJoyce
26th August 2007, 22:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 26, 2007 08:00 pm
But it was just the name of a newspaper, not an official name for a whole revolutionary process.

Plus, a name like "the Spark" has broader connotations than just an allusion to the Decembrist revolt.
And so it is with "Bolivarianism." Among the Bolivarians we find Flora Tristan (See Syndicat's signature.)

The editors regarded the paper as the organ of the only "correct" section of the revolutionary process. That the memory of Pushkin and the Decembrists meant something to the the later Revolutionaries may be seen in the fact that they celebrated the centennial of the Rising in 1925 and named "Decembrist Square" in their memory.




.

davidasearles
26th August 2007, 23:14
RGacky3 wrote:


One of the main fears for me is a Centralized body taking over authority in the revolution "in the name of" the Masses, that's what kills true Socialism. So for a proletarian revolution to be genuine it has to never allow centralized authority.

A damned healthy fear.

I don't want to be taking your sentiment out of context but i think of this whenever comrades start talking about presenting a "transitional program" which very seldomly IF EVER lays out any revolutionary goal except the goal of the workers being led around by "revolutionary leadership."

Over in another thread on whether we should participate in elections a few comrades have even questioned whether one as part of a political campaign should come right out and state that you are in favor of the workers taking over the means of production. "the workers must be led into class consciousness en mass." so any thought of engaging individual workers as in a political campaign would only lead to "demoralization".

Who are these people with their phony psychologizing? That they are capable of processing the truth of the stark necessity of socialsm but that workers must not be given this message outright!

syndicat
26th August 2007, 23:44
this is why building mass organizations that are self-managed by their members is so important. the working class needs to have its own mass organizations, unions and community organizations, that it controls. thru the experience of running these organizations themselves, and thru the process of collective struggle, working people can acquire the self-confidence and organizational strength and cohesion needed to fundamentally challenge the elite classes for control of society. to ensure that the working class ends up in driver's seat when the dust settles, it needs to start with mass movemens that it controls. the aim of the movement should be for the working class to take over management of the industries where they work, and create a new polity to replace the state, based on participatory democracy of assemblies in neighborhoods and workplaces. the working class through its own democratic institutions can coordinate the elaboration and defense of the revolution.

davidasearles
27th August 2007, 00:24
syndicat:


thru the process of collective struggle, working people can acquire the self-confidence and organizational strength and cohesion needed to fundamentally challenge the elite classes for control of society

Dave Searles replies:

No one is going to argue that experience in "collective struggle" would be a bad thing for a worker to have on his or her resume. (and the word struggle sounds so revolutionary, doesn't it?)

But I think you know where I am coming from. We have a national election coming up next year. Those who advocate that capitalism should be continued shall no doubt be fully represented. I think that we agree that the workers should own and control the meas of production and distribution (socialism to me). Should there be a political party out there which states in black and white "socialism - the workers taking holding and operating the means of production and distribution is our platform"?

I suggest this becuase we can make it a part of the "struggle" it seems (if it isn't already) the issue of the current legality of capitalism and the current illegality of the workers simply asserting ownership and control.

This is a perfect question to address on the political field. Wouldn't this be a legitimate part of the "struggle"? And wouldn't this boldly stress the transparency that is apparently admittedly required? - for it to be identified to the workers upfront the goal that is being proposed?

syndicat
27th August 2007, 01:19
are you supposing that some completely marginalized political sect, which will be completely invisible and lacks mass support, running its ignored candidates, is relevant to working class struggle? I don't see it. class struggles are struggles of working people.

Random Precision
27th August 2007, 02:27
Originally posted by CornetJoyce+August 26, 2007 09:05 pm--> (CornetJoyce @ August 26, 2007 09:05 pm)
[email protected] 26, 2007 08:00 pm
But it was just the name of a newspaper, not an official name for a whole revolutionary process.

Plus, a name like "the Spark" has broader connotations than just an allusion to the Decembrist revolt.
And so it is with "Bolivarianism." Among the Bolivarians we find Flora Tristan (See Syndicat's signature.)

The editors regarded the paper as the organ of the only "correct" section of the revolutionary process. That the memory of Pushkin and the Decembrists meant something to the the later Revolutionaries may be seen in the fact that they celebrated the centennial of the Rising in 1925 and named "Decembrist Square" in their memory.




. [/b]
You are correct, I had not thought of things that way before.

davidasearles
27th August 2007, 10:43
Dave Searles:

Should there be a political party out there which states in black and white "socialism - the workers taking holding and operating the means of production and distribution is our platform"?

I suggest this becuase we can make it a part of the "struggle" it seems (if it isn't already) the issue of the current legality of capitalism and the current illegality of the workers simply asserting ownership and control.

This is a perfect question to address on the political field. Wouldn't this be a legitimate part of the "struggle"? And wouldn't this boldly stress the transparency that is apparently admittedly required? - for it to be identified to the workers upfront the goal that is being proposed?

syndicat:

are you supposing that some completely marginalized political sect, which will be completely invisible and lacks mass support, running its ignored candidates, is relevant to working class struggle?

Dave Searles:

It makes very little difference what I suppose or what you suppose.

"completely invisible" "ignored candidates" "marginalized"

Previously you wrote:


working people can acquire the self-confidence and organizational strength and cohesion needed to fundamentally challenge the elite classes for control of society

Dave Searles continues:

Comrade, if you were involved in a congressional race in your own district on such a platform is it your experience that your skill levels are so low that the campaign would be completely invisible. marginalized, and ignored?

"lacks mass support"

You can't be suggesting, comrade, that the only "struggles" for class conscious individuals to get involved in are the ones CURRENTLY with mass support?

There does seem to be just a bit too much of the tired old armchair socialist in such sentiments. I hope that is not the case with you.

syndicat
27th August 2007, 18:53
You can't be suggesting, comrade, that the only "struggles" for class conscious individuals to get involved in are the ones CURRENTLY with mass support?

It's a question of the strategy for organizing. if we're trying to build a movement for working class self-emancipation, the focus should be on building mass participation and mass organizations, membership organizations, which are the means thru which the struggles are being organized. voting isn't "mass participation". mass participation means that the people affected are involved and make the decisions about what is being fought for.

so let's suppose you're organizing a union among your coworkers. you've gotten to the point where there is enough support you can confront management, together, for changes you all want. that is "mass participation," even if on a small scale, with small numbers, because it is the workers there in that workplace deciding what the aim is and getting involved in supporting the change.

thru the development of mass organizations and mass struggles on a larger scale, power can be developed by the working class.

davidasearles
27th August 2007, 21:51
syndicat wrote:


It's a question of the strategy for organizing. if we're trying to build a movement for working class self-emancipation, the focus should be on building mass participation and mass organizations, membership organizations

Dave writes:

"THE focus"?

What in the world makes you think that there should be single focus?

Is this a limitation in your thought that the entire working class should be limited to a single focus? I am sorry comrade. No one died and left you in charge so you don't get away with these pronouncements of limitation.

Further there is nothing inherent which you have shown which would restrict agitation for the proposed amendment from becoming a "mass movement".

"building mass organizations"?

Don't you see where the amendment if adopted would establish the legality of democratic workers unions to take hold and operate the means of production?

Isn't that "mass organizations" enough for you?

syndicat:


so let's suppose you're organizing a union among your coworkers. you've gotten to the point where there is enough support you can confront management, together, for changes you all want. that is "mass participation

Dave writes:

Tell me comrade - how has that been going for the working class as a SOLE FOCUS?

Why would we not expand our vision just a bit and recognize that if we reach out beyond the workplace into the political forum that we just might be a little more effective. And why should our focus be exclusively on playing let's make a deal with the "management" as you put it. Why shouldn't we ALSO say to ourselves "since we are the overwelming constituiion giving "PEOPLE" let us go to all of our brothers and sisters, and "change the rule by changing the rules"?

Doesn't quite fit into your nice little plan does it comrade? I am sorry about that.